Is Elsa a 16th Level Sorcerer?

[Yael]

So, yeah... From Disney's "Frozen" movie, we see a character named Elsa, who posees inborn cold magical abilities. After an evening a couple of friends and I started to talk about who would be the strongest Disney's D&D-converted character, and after Hercules (obviously overpowered against every other), and any other gawd (including King Triton, Ariel's father), but excluding Square Enix's thingies, because we focused on Disney Specific; in the end, we concluded that Elsa would be one of the strongest, being a 16th level sorcerer, or a frost mage build centered in sorcerer. We eschew'd Bard from the beginning, because Fimbulwinter.

What do you think? Also, which other Disney characters do you find strong? Or at least a treat to Elsa's superior abilities? Permanencied Fimbulwinter until dispel?

[Malroth]

Why do you think 16th lv specifically?

[Kid Jake]

As I recall, Merlin would be a 17th level wizard, or thereabouts, considering he used Shapechange during his duel. I'd say that he'd give her a run for her money.

[Yael]

Why do you think 16th lv specifically?

Fimbulwinter being an 8th-level spell, and she cast a lookalike of it, in her town.


Edit: She would be at least 14th-level, she did cast Ice Castle, a 7th-level spell, which looked like it wouldn't disapear after the first 24 hours.
As I recall, Merlin would be a 17th level wizard, or thereabouts, considering he used Shapechange during his duel. I'd say that he'd give her a run for her money.

I forgot about him, but we agreed that he had to be a pseudo-deity, so we left him out. He is strong, anyway.

[AuraTwilight]

Much needs to be said about the fact that she also created sentient, awakened, animated snowmen without using any material components nor does she seem to have paid any XP components either since she literally didn't even notice she did it.

[Yael]

Much needs to be said about the fact that she also created sentient, awakened, animated snowmen without using any material components nor does she seem to have paid any XP components either since she literally didn't even notice she did it.

Conjure Ice Beast YOLO.

Isn't there a Summon Ice Golem or something?

[Alleran]

I'd probably put Elsa at 18th to 19th level, actually. She's hilariously powerful, right up there with Maleficent (who I'd put at 18th level because of Shapechange [Dragon]). Ice Castle, Fimbulwinter, Awaken Construct, Frostfell... she demonstrates a lot of high-level (in D&D terms) magic, and isn't even breaking a sweat at doing it. Granted, she has trouble controlling it, but she's got it all the same.

[Yael]

A permanencied version of Creeping cold can also be seen in the movie, but with lesser effects.

[Renen]

I think we even had a thread on this. Elsa can likely even wipe the floor with Maleficent. Because really, she can just make a bunch of snow dragons (instead of the snow monster) and mave them om nom nom Maleficent.
Or she could just impale her on an icicle. Maleficent is clearly weak to magical sword, so why not magic icicle?
Id say Elsa is easily the strongest disney mage. Unless people like Merlin and Fairy Godmother have been holding out on us.

[A_S]

I'd say Elsa isn't modeled terribly well as a 16th-ish level Sorcerer. Instead, she's an archetype that D&D 3.5 doesn't handle well in general, the "civilian who developed a superpower." So she can do a few specific things that you can only do in D&D with high level spells, but she doesn't get the superhuman stats and large backlog of less-impressive-but-still-very-impressive abilities that you accumulate along the way to getting access to those spells as a high-level Sorcerer.

If I were trying to emulate abilities like hers in D&D, I'd make her something like a level 2 Aristocrat with some homebrewed SLA's that worked something like Dragonmarks. But of course that's not an option for by-the-book character building, because the game is designed around gradually accumulating power as you level up, not suddenly waking up with 7th level spell access for plot reasons.

[Yael]

I'd say Elsa isn't modeled terribly well as a 16th-ish level Sorcerer. Instead, she's an archetype that D&D 3.5 doesn't handle well in general, the "civilian who developed a superpower." So she can do a few specific things that you can only do in D&D with high level spells, but she doesn't get the superhuman stats and large backlog of less-impressive-but-still-very-impressive abilities that you accumulate along the way to getting access to those spells as a high-level Sorcerer.

If I were trying to emulate abilities like hers in D&D, I'd make her something like a level 2 Aristocrat with some homebrewed SLA's that worked something like Dragonmarks. But of course that's not an option for by-the-book character building, because the game is designed around gradually accumulating power as you level up, not suddenly waking up with 7th level spell access for plot reasons.

There is the LA+5 Template, Past Life that could grant the use 1/day of a 5th-level spell on the sorcerer/wizard list, but even though, it isn't enough spell level.

[A_S]

There is the LA+5 Template, Past Life that could grant the use 1/day of a 5th-level spell on the sorcerer/wizard list, but even though, it isn't enough spell level.
Yeah; if you're trying to build her as a table-legal PC, you either have to miss out on some of her canonical abilities, or give her a whole host of lower-level powers that she doesn't seem to have in the movie. That's what I meant about 3.5 not modeling the "suddenly a superpower" thing very well.

[Der_DWSage]

Agreed with those saying she's not accurately measured by D&D. If anything, she'd be a lot closer to Mutants and Masterminds-just pump up her levels in Cold Control and give her the Power Feat for Create Object and wiggle in Animate Object in there somewhere, and make her hopeless with anything outside that range.

I really don't see her as being able to square off against Maleficent or Merlin. She's pretty good at what she does, that's true, but she's also a young lady with minimal combat experience going up against two individuals who are closer to being legitimate D&D wizards, rather than an Aristocrat with SLAs. (And if nothing else, Merlin is definitely at WBL with all of his crazy gear.)

[ILM]

Oh Jesus not more Frozen references. Just let it go already. :smallmad:

Let it gooooooooooooooooooo!

[Heliomance]

Oh Jesus not more Frozen references. Just let it go already. :smallmad:

Let it gooooooooooooooooooo!

Nerdrage is an open door.

[PsyBomb]

I think she is better modeled as a PF Wilder with some power thematics, just need to add Fimbulwinter to the power list.

[Inevitability]

The most powerful disney character is obviously Genie, as anyone who has ever heard of Pun-Pun should know.

[khadgar567]

well how about jafar from alaadin he is also shape changeing idiot who stuck with genie power whom also shape shift and mind rape king

[Psyren]

well how about jafar from alaadin he is also shape changeing idiot who stuck with genie power whom also shape shift and mind rape king

Jafar was practically an Expert to start with as his only powers were disguise and his staff's charm/hypnosis ability. After his second wish he had 9th-level spells (disjunction and shapechange, plus being able to animate colossal objects and walk through fire.) His third wish... well we all know how that went.

[lytokk]

Would have to agree with genie being the most powerful character in the disney universe, except for the fact he explicitly cannot kill anyone. Not sure if this translates to can't injure anyone, but still.

Give Elsa a little more experience with using her magic in a combat environment and I'd say she may be able to take on Maleficent. Maybe not to a victory, but to a point where Maleficent starts wondering if this is actually worth it and backs off. Granted I'm thinking of the new Maleficent, not the original one, since I barely remember that movie anymore.

Merlin still wins. The man can turn himself into an infectious disease.

[ranagrande]

Eve from WALL-E has to be pretty high up there too.

[Psyren]

Would have to agree with genie being the most powerful character in the disney universe, except for the fact he explicitly cannot kill anyone. Not sure if this translates to can't injure anyone, but still.

"You'd be surprised what you can live through."

Yes, (non-fatal) injury/incapacitation/discomfort/etc. is allowed for genies.



Give Elsa a little more experience with using her magic in a combat environment and I'd say she may be able to take on Maleficent. Maybe not to a victory, but to a point where Maleficent starts wondering if this is actually worth it and backs off. Granted I'm thinking of the new Maleficent, not the original one, since I barely remember that movie anymore.

Merlin still wins. The man can turn himself into an infectious disease.

Given that Maleficent and Neo-Jafar aren't human, there's no guarantee his disease form would affect them, so I wouldn't give him the title belt just yet.


Eve from WALL-E has to be pretty high up there too.

If you allow Pixar that opens up a whole can of worms - the Incredibles, Monsters Inc., the sentient constructs in Cars...

[lytokk]

"You'd be surprised what you can live through."

Yes, (non-fatal) injury/incapacitation/discomfort/etc. is allowed for genies.

On second thought, how much does the no killing clause apply to genie anymore, since he's free from the shackle of slavery the lamp dictates.



Given that Maleficent and Neo-Jafar aren't human, there's no guarantee his disease form would affect them, so I wouldn't give him the title belt just yet.

Last I remember, jafar was never freed, so he still can't kill. Actually, if I remember the movie correctly, he couldn't even cause harm. But its been over 10 years since I watched the movie.

Also, Maleficent has a weakness to iron. Friggin Iron. Fighty McStabby could take her out.
*edit* or since merlin can shapechange, turns into an iron golem. That's a normal use of shapechange right?




If you allow Pixar that opens up a whole can of worms - the Incredibles, Monsters Inc., the sentient constructs in Cars...
Not sure. None of them seemed all that powerful. But Incredibles 2 may change that. Eve just has a big gun and super speed.

[Psyren]

On second thought, how much does the no killing clause apply to genie anymore, since he's free from the shackle of slavery the lamp dictates.

An interesting question... one that's not likely to ever be answered since Genie wouldn't kill even without the law.


Last I remember, jafar was never freed, so he still can't kill. Actually, if I remember the movie correctly, he couldn't even cause harm. But its been over 10 years since I watched the movie.

He can certainly cause harm. When the genie taunted him about not being able to kill, Jafar responded by toasting him. When Abis Mal insisted upon his wishes, Jafar zapped him with (non-lethal) lightning. He came pretty close to killing Iago too, who quoted the titular line upon regaining consciousness.



Also, Maleficent has a weakness to iron. Friggin Iron. Fighty McStabby could take her out.
*edit* or since merlin can shapechange, turns into an iron golem. That's a normal use of shapechange right?

Eh, she just fought stupid because plot. Strafing Charming from the air would have rendered him into a fine snortable powder before long.

As for Merlin, dragon fire is supernatural and so his iron golem magic immunity wouldn't help him, and she'd never have to touch him.

[Threadnaught]

Live Action Maleficent is affected by the curse she places on Aurora, which doesn't work as written. Curse is broken by RAW and Maleficent failed her Will Save against the not actually true love effect of the curse.

Her spell is broken by RAW, because it can only be undone by true love, but ends up breaking under it's own power.


Live Action Maleficent is possibly the weakest character here, because her spells don't function the way they're supposed to.

[lytokk]

So, does this put merlin and meleficent basically on par with each other? Cause frankly, there's not one thing that one of them can do that can't be countered by the other? The only difference I see is that Maleficent has that one glaring weakness, to iron, which I feel would give Merlin the advantage.

Jafar on the other hand, is hard to quantify his power. With the limitations of not being able to kill, and the fact that he's stuck in the lamp unless someone lets him out, and whoever is in control of the lamp controls his fate, I feel his power is much more limited than any of the other powerful forces in the disney universe.

Still ranking Genie as #1 in terms of power. He's just never using it to his full potential.

[Psyren]

Merlin appears to be a bit more scatterbrained - really the bacteria thing should have been his first resort. Based on what we see he'd be stronger, but villains have to be terminally dumb once they go One-Winged Angel anyway. (Seriously Ursula, you didn't see a giant boat slowly coming at you?)

Anyway, Elsa is the only one so far that seems to have created sapient life, muddying things further.

[lytokk]

I guess its possible that Elsa doesn't even know the extent of her own power. She froze her kingdom cause she was scared. She created Olaf without meaning to. Marshmellow just got more and more powerful the more he was attacked. Once she figures out her powers, she could be the most powerful. I guess we'll find out in the inevitable sequel.

Though, Genie did create life. All those people in the Prince Ali song seemed alive and able to affect the world around them. Though its not clear what happened to them after the musical number, which is actually somewhat disturbing now that I think about it. How did no one in Agrabah realize that all those people vanished?

[Svata]

I'm thinking more a tweaked-to-be-cold-oriented Walker in the Waste who hasn't yet hit their capstone for her, actually. Cold aura, snow golems instead of sand. Etc...

[Bronk]

I'd say Elsa isn't modeled terribly well as a 16th-ish level Sorcerer. Instead, she's an archetype that D&D 3.5 doesn't handle well in general, the "civilian who developed a superpower." So she can do a few specific things that you can only do in D&D with high level spells, but she doesn't get the superhuman stats and large backlog of less-impressive-but-still-very-impressive abilities that you accumulate along the way to getting access to those spells as a high-level Sorcerer.

If I were trying to emulate abilities like hers in D&D, I'd make her something like a level 2 Aristocrat with some homebrewed SLA's that worked something like Dragonmarks. But of course that's not an option for by-the-book character building, because the game is designed around gradually accumulating power as you level up, not suddenly waking up with 7th level spell access for plot reasons.

She's had her powers since she was a kid... maybe she's just a human looking changeling of some sort, and her sister was the only truly human child?


I guess its possible that Elsa doesn't even know the extent of her own power. She froze her kingdom cause she was scared. She created Olaf without meaning to. Marshmellow just got more and more powerful the more he was attacked. Once she figures out her powers, she could be the most powerful. I guess we'll find out in the inevitable sequel.

Though, Genie did create life. All those people in the Prince Ali song seemed alive and able to affect the world around them. Though its not clear what happened to them after the musical number, which is actually somewhat disturbing now that I think about it. How did no one in Agrabah realize that all those people vanished?

There should be an entire kingdom out there somewhere for 'Prince Ali' to rule, along with a couple of new, royal parents...

[Zaq]

Though, Genie did create life. All those people in the Prince Ali song seemed alive and able to affect the world around them. Though its not clear what happened to them after the musical number, which is actually somewhat disturbing now that I think about it. How did no one in Agrabah realize that all those people vanished?

That . . . that is a very good question. Did they vanish? Did they have to integrate into life in Agrabah without homes or jobs or friends? Hmm. This is probably something the movie creators really didn't want us to think about too hard.

[Flickerdart]

I would say that Elsa shouldn't even be considered as a human with class levels. She's basically the Snow Queen, who is clearly not human in her fairy tale and in-game would probably be modeled as some type of Fey.

[Zaq]

I would say that Elsa shouldn't even be considered as a human with class levels. She's basically the Snow Queen, who is clearly not human in her fairy tale and in-game would probably be modeled as some type of Fey.

Frostwind Virago, perhaps? That's the best "strong ice-themed fey" I can think of offhand. (Disclaimer: I haven't seen the movie.)

[lytokk]

I think I've seen something about this before. Aladdin wished to be a prince, which means the Genie had to make him a kingdom. Ali Ababwa was his princely name, so the kingdom Ababwa has to exist someplace, now leaderless since their prince never came home. Though, what does this say about Ali's parents? Since Aladdins real dad was Alibaba, did genie make fake parents to rule the kingdom that mourne the dissapearance of their son?

I need to stop thinking about this.

[Rogue Shadows]

That . . . that is a very good question. Did they vanish? Did they have to integrate into life in Agrabah without homes or jobs or friends? Hmm. This is probably something the movie creators really didn't want us to think about too hard.

They weren't necessarily alive. They could easily be complicated illusions or simulacra that only look alive but are no more alive than the animatronics at Disneyworld.


I would say that Elsa shouldn't even be considered as a human with class levels. She's basically the Snow Queen, who is clearly not human in her fairy tale and in-game would probably be modeled as some type of Fey.

In the original story, sure, but Frozen is massively changed from the original story. I'd say she's still human, and she's clearly capable of playing on Maleficent's level once she learns to control her powers and if she ever decided to bend them towards true combat.

[Kid Jake]

Something to think about with Jafar/Genie; even with the genie's personal no kill restriction it seems like a pretty trivial matter to just turn some random schlub into a dragon or other high powered monstrosity and have him do it for you. I mean if you can turn a monkey into an elephant you can turn a hobo into a hydra, right?

[Rogue Shadows]

Something to think about with Jafar/Genie; even with the genie's personal no kill restriction it seems like a pretty trivial matter to just turn some random schlub into a dragon or other high powered monstrosity and have him do it for you. I mean if you can turn a monkey into an elephant you can turn a hobo into a hydra, right?

You don't even need that. Jafar in Return of Jafar transported Abiz-Mal to deep under the ocean where he couldn't breathe when he wished for some lost sunken treasure. Sure, it wasn't immediately lethal, but if Abiz-Mal hadn't used a wish to escape from the ocean then he would have drowned. As long as whatever the genie does is not immediately lethal, it appears to be on the table.

[Flickerdart]

In the original story, sure, but Frozen is massively changed from the original story. I'd say she's still human, and she's clearly capable of playing on Maleficent's level once she learns to control her powers and if she ever decided to bend them towards true combat.
Eh, I'd still say Elsa is more inhuman than not. Her power compared to Maleficent isn't in question, though - what has Maleficent done that rivals covering an entire kingdom in massive layers of snow?

[Svata]

So, making someone suddenly be 1,700 feet in the air would be an option? 'Cause that's not lethal untill 8.6 seconds later, when they hit the ground.

[dascarletm]

I think I've seen something about this before. Aladdin wished to be a prince, which means the Genie had to make him a kingdom. Ali Ababwa was his princely name, so the kingdom Ababwa has to exist someplace, now leaderless since their prince never came home. Though, what does this say about Ali's parents? Since Aladdins real dad was Alibaba, did genie make fake parents to rule the kingdom that mourne the dissapearance of their son?

I need to stop thinking about this.

It's pretty clear the genie short-changed Alladin on this one. Everything he did was basically illusions, and Alladin was even afraid that people would find out he wasn't really a prince. If he was actually a prince with a new kingdom out there he would have nothing to fear. He could just have the genie take them to the kingdom.

Merely a con.

[Rogue Shadows]

Eh, I'd still say Elsa is more inhuman than not. Her power compared to Maleficent isn't in question, though - what has Maleficent done that rivals covering an entire kingdom in massive layers of snow?

By implication she's as strong as the three good faeries combined, who together were able to put an entire kingdom to sleep. She also created a truly massive wall of thorns.

Also what the Hell dragon did she turn into that with a single breath attack could shatter a stone bridge?! Sorry, just watching the fight (that is, the original cartoon version's), and yeah, she totally is able to destroy a stone bridge with a single breath attack...even an elder red's breath weapon (24d10) would only deal 120 damage max to a bridge thanks to Hardness and half damage, that doesn't strike me as quite enough to destroy a bridge in one blow...


So, making someone suddenly be 1,700 feet in the air would be an option? 'Cause that's not lethal untill 8.6 seconds later, when they hit the ground.

If teleporting someone X hundred feet underwater is okay since it's not immediately lethal or even harmful (teleporting someone to a crushing depth is probably not kosher, though), then I'd say that yes, this is perfectly fine too under the "no kill" rules. It's not the long drop - it's the sudden stop.

[Threadnaught]

Eh, I'd still say Elsa is more inhuman than not. Her power compared to Maleficent isn't in question, though - what has Maleficent done that rivals covering an entire kingdom in massive layers of snow?

She put an unbreakable killing eternal sleep curse on a newborn which had a mind affecting effect which revented it from being broken.

The unbreakable curse was broken by itself and the caster. If we're referring to Jolie's Maleficent that is.
Classic Maleficent could be a high level Druid.

Also, I think Marshmallow is female. Considering she's a princess.

[Psyren]

You don't even need that. Jafar in Return of Jafar transported Abiz-Mal to deep under the ocean where he couldn't breathe when he wished for some lost sunken treasure. Sure, it wasn't immediately lethal, but if Abiz-Mal hadn't used a wish to escape from the ocean then he would have drowned. As long as whatever the genie does is not immediately lethal, it appears to be on the table.

I think Jafar was bluffing there - he would have had to save him after he passed out regardless. But by making Abis panic, he caused him to burn an extra wish because he didn't know the rules.

But it is indeed defined loosely - he was able to smash up the courtyard and fill it with lava, putting Aladdin in a very deadly situation if Aladdin wanted to retrieve his lamp.


I guess its possible that Elsa doesn't even know the extent of her own power. She froze her kingdom cause she was scared. She created Olaf without meaning to. Marshmellow just got more and more powerful the more he was attacked. Once she figures out her powers, she could be the most powerful. I guess we'll find out in the inevitable sequel.

Though, Genie did create life. All those people in the Prince Ali song seemed alive and able to affect the world around them. Though its not clear what happened to them after the musical number, which is actually somewhat disturbing now that I think about it. How did no one in Agrabah realize that all those people vanished?

My understanding is that those were all polymorphed animals, similar to Abu being the elephant. He did not create life, merely changed it.

[lytokk]

Eh, I'd still say Elsa is more inhuman than not. Her power compared to Maleficent isn't in question, though - what has Maleficent done that rivals covering an entire kingdom in massive layers of snow?

She summoned an army of ents, created an impenetrable wall of thorns that surrounded the entirety of the Moors. There's really a lot of things that one of them can do that the other can't. Did Elsa ever Awaken and polymorph an animal? No, she created and awakened several constructs. Its kinda back and forth.

[weckar]

I'd put any of Disney's magic users (save, perhaps, Merlin and Yen Sid) as warlocks, not sorcerers or wizards. They'd have highly customised feats and invocations to be sure, but it fits their general attitude about their power better.

[Flickerdart]

By implication she's as strong as the three good faeries combined, who together were able to put an entire kingdom to sleep. She also created a truly massive wall of thorns.
What implication is that? It's been a while.


Also what the Hell dragon did she turn into that with a single breath attack could shatter a stone bridge?! Sorry, just watching the fight (that is, the original cartoon version's), and yeah, she totally is able to destroy a stone bridge with a single breath attack...even an elder red's breath weapon (24d10) would only deal 120 damage max to a bridge thanks to Hardness and half damage, that doesn't strike me as quite enough to destroy a bridge in one blow...
Pyroclastic dragons have disintegrating breath.


She summoned an army of ents, created an impenetrable wall of thorns that surrounded the entirety of the Moors. There's really a lot of things that one of them can do that the other can't. Did Elsa ever Awaken and polymorph an animal? No, she created and awakened several constructs. Its kinda back and forth.
A kingdom is far larger than a bunch of moors. At least on scale, Elsa's supremacy is undisputed.

[Honest Tiefling]

Elsa clearly developed her powers in early childhood, which sorcerers don't do until much later IIRC.

As for the most powerful, Maleificent clearly has some infernal powers as she taunts the prince by saying 'Now you face me, O prince, and all of the powers of hell!'. Or she's a filthy, filthy, liar. I am a bit surprised no one mentioned Chernobog yet...Then again he's got some issues with daylight.

[danzibr]

Oh my gosh. I can't believe the worst Aladdin movie is coming up so much in this thread. For some reason my kids love that movie. I try to sneak in the original or King of Thieves instead.

On topic, experience-wise Elsa is clearly not level 16. Power-wise? Yeah, I can see it. I somewhat agree with the level 2 Artistocrat with SLA's comment.

[sakuuya]

What implication is that? It's been a while.

I assume he meant that the other three fairies were unable to break her curse, though IIRC only the pink one (Merriweather?) had the opportunity to do so.


I am a bit surprised no one mentioned Chernobog yet...Then again he's got some issues with daylight.

Chernobog is clearly some sort of god or demon rather than anything like a PC.

[danzibr]

Oh, as for the Genie power thing, I get the feeling he's actually not that powerful. Like, most of his powers deal with trickery. All those people he created in the Prince Ali song were all illusions (this is how I see it). And I don't think he made Aladdin a prince, just an illusion. To really be a prince he'd need like, a kingdom to be prince of, and I don't think that happened.

[lytokk]

The wording of the wish was "make me a prince" not "make me appear to be a prince". Now, I know we've got some wish lawyers on the forum, but the end result is, Aladdin is a prince, of some kingdom, somewhere. Jafar became the most powerful sorceror in the world shortly before becoming a genie. No trickery, actually became both of those. Genie is the most powerful as he's the only one who can reshape reality.

[Psyren]

Oh my gosh. I can't believe the worst Aladdin movie is coming up so much in this thread. For some reason my kids love that movie. I try to sneak in the original or King of Thieves instead.

...I liked all three of them, and the animated series too...



On topic, experience-wise Elsa is clearly not level 16. Power-wise? Yeah, I can see it. I somewhat agree with the level 2 Artistocrat with SLA's comment.

She likely has a template of some kind, due to her seelie superfey background or something.

[Inevitability]

I think Jafar was bluffing there - he would have had to save him after he passed out regardless. But by making Abis panic, he caused him to burn an extra wish because he didn't know the rules.

But what then if Abis' wish was his third one? Are you saying Jafar suddenly would have to grant it in a different way, simply because he wouldn't be able to safe Abis?

[Honest Tiefling]

I assume he meant that the other three fairies were unable to break her curse, though IIRC only the pink one (Merriweather?) had the opportunity to do so.

I like to think that they had the power, but dumped too much of their mental stats other then Charisma to remember they could. Except for Merryweather (who is actually the blue one) but had less levels. Remember, they tip off the villain while trying to make a cake. They're idiots, except possibly Merryweather (at times).


Chernobog is clearly some sort of god or demon rather than anything like a PC.

Would that mean that the Genie is a monster and not a PC? I think Djinni got a monster race. Would that make Jafar an Efreeti?

[Malimar]

I think I've seen something about this before. Aladdin wished to be a prince, which means the Genie had to make him a kingdom. Ali Ababwa was his princely name, so the kingdom Ababwa has to exist someplace, now leaderless since their prince never came home. Though, what does this say about Ali's parents? Since Aladdins real dad was Alibaba, did genie make fake parents to rule the kingdom that mourne the dissapearance of their son?

I need to stop thinking about this.


It's pretty clear the genie short-changed Alladin on this one. Everything he did was basically illusions, and Alladin was even afraid that people would find out he wasn't really a prince. If he was actually a prince with a new kingdom out there he would have nothing to fear. He could just have the genie take them to the kingdom.

Merely a con.

I think about this a lot.

I used to think Aladdin wished to be a prince, not merely to make people think he's a prince, so the bit at the end where Sultan goes "Am I Sultan or am I Sultan?" and changes the law to make it permissible for the princess to marry a commoner should be unnecessary, because if nobody undid the "make me a prince" wish, Aladdin is still a prince.

Then I realized: in the real world, there's no magical essence of prince-dom. If people think you're a prince, that's what makes you a prince. You can be "rightfully" first in line to inherit a throne, but if nobody cares and the throne's going to wind up going to somebody else, well it turns out you're just not a "real" prince after all. Princedom is purely a social construct, governance derives from the consent of the governed, etc. So the whole song and dance convincing everybody Ali Ababwa is a real prince is what made him a real prince. Once people stopped buying it, he stopped being a real prince.

This is not the sort of strict adherence to realism I would expect from a Disney movie, but there you go.

[dascarletm]

I think about this a lot.

I used to think Aladdin wished to be a prince, not merely to make people think he's a prince, so the bit at the end where Sultan goes "Am I Sultan or am I Sultan?" and changes the law to make it permissible for the princess to marry a commoner should be unnecessary, because if nobody undid the "make me a prince" wish, Aladdin is still a prince.

Then I realized: in the real world, there's no magical essence of prince-dom. If people think you're a prince, that's what makes you a prince. You can be "rightfully" first in line to inherit a throne, but if nobody cares and the throne's going to wind up going to somebody else, well it turns out you're just not a "real" prince after all. Princedom is purely a social construct, governance derives from the consent of the governed, etc. So the whole song and dance convincing everybody Ali Ababwa is a real prince is what made him a real prince. Once people stopped buying it, he stopped being a real prince.

This is not the sort of strict adherence to realism I would expect from a Disney movie, but there you go.

Exactly!


The wording of the wish was "make me a prince" not "make me appear to be a prince". Now, I know we've got some wish lawyers on the forum, but the end result is, Aladdin is a prince, of some kingdom, somewhere. Jafar became the most powerful sorceror in the world shortly before becoming a genie. No trickery, actually became both of those. Genie is the most powerful as he's the only one who can reshape reality.

partial fulfillment.

[Psyren]

I think about this a lot.

I used to think Aladdin wished to be a prince, not merely to make people think he's a prince, so the bit at the end where Sultan goes "Am I Sultan or am I Sultan?" and changes the law to make it permissible for the princess to marry a commoner should be unnecessary, because if nobody undid the "make me a prince" wish, Aladdin is still a prince.

Then I realized: in the real world, there's no magical essence of prince-dom. If people think you're a prince, that's what makes you a prince. You can be "rightfully" first in line to inherit a throne, but if nobody cares and the throne's going to wind up going to somebody else, well it turns out you're just not a "real" prince after all. Princedom is purely a social construct, governance derives from the consent of the governed, etc. So the whole song and dance convincing everybody Ali Ababwa is a real prince is what made him a real prince. Once people stopped buying it, he stopped being a real prince.

This is not the sort of strict adherence to realism I would expect from a Disney movie, but there you go.

Reminds me of Varys' riddle (http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/503606-oh-i-think-not-varys-said-swirling-the-wine-in) to Tyrion in Game of Thrones.


But what then if Abis' wish was his third one? Are you saying Jafar suddenly would have to grant it in a different way, simply because he wouldn't be able to safe Abis?

I'm... not sure what you're asking here, any chance you could rephrase it?

[Troacctid]

But what then if Abis' wish was his third one? Are you saying Jafar suddenly would have to grant it in a different way, simply because he wouldn't be able to safe Abis?

No, he just would have saved Abis from drowning in some other way.

[atemu1234]

I assume he meant that the other three fairies were unable to break her curse, though IIRC only the pink one (Merriweather?) had the opportunity to do so.



Chernobog is clearly some sort of god or demon rather than anything like a PC.

Dipping into third party, I'd say dread vampire pit fiend // necromancer

[Chronos]

Aladdin really did become a prince (or was one all along). His dad is the Prince of Thieves, and the son of a prince is also a prince. I don't know whether the Prince of Thieves has a kingdom, but he's a prince regardless.

The real question is, was Aladdin a prince all along, or was the Genie so powerful that he was able to retcon Aladdin's parentage?

[lytokk]

another line of thought, Once Aladdin marries Jasmine, isn't he at that point a prince? Did middle eastern culture even have princes and princesses? I really don't know much about that culture.

[dascarletm]

Aladdin really did become a prince (or was one all along). His dad is the Prince of Thieves, and the son of a prince is also a prince. I don't know whether the Prince of Thieves has a kingdom, but he's a prince regardless.

The real question is, was Aladdin a prince all along, or was the Genie so powerful that he was able to retcon Aladdin's parentage?

I was also wondering this.

I like to believe that it was the genie's doing.

[Peelee]

It's been a while, but what about Yen Sid? Where would he fall on the power scale? Can we peg a level on him, as he's explicitly a sorcerer?

[Yael]

It's been a while, but what about Yen Sid? Where would he fall on the power scale? Can we peg a level on him, as he's explicitly a sorcerer?

A Wizard, most likely?

[Honest Tiefling]

Can one still call themselves a sorcerer if they are a Ultimate Magus? I mean, calling yourself Yen Sid, the Ultimate Magus just sounds downright silly.

[PsyBomb]

It's been a while, but what about Yen Sid? Where would he fall on the power scale? Can we peg a level on him, as he's explicitly a sorcerer?

Yen Sid is an epic-level wizard. One strong enough to turn his hat into basically an artifact, capable of greatly magnifying Apprentice Mickey's power.

[AvatarVecna]

I don't think Elsa is a Sorcerer. Spells are nice, and replicate her abilities well, but the "Ice Castle" spell, which is perfect for replicating one of Elsa's bigger scenes, requires an expensive material component (a miniature version of the castle carved out of ice costing 2000 gp); unless you have an argument for her using her crown as the component (I'm sure there's a way), spells won't suffice.

A Wilder fits well enough: it has a spell-like system that replicates spell effects, said system is based on the casters emotions, and it doesn't require material components. Unfortunately, the spells that mimic Elsa's most powerful abilities (Fimbulwinter, Ice Castle, etc.) aren't psionic powers; even if such spells were made into power, an Elsa high-level enough to use them would have many powers she doesn't demonstrate in the movie.

A homebrew template giving a bunch of high-level SLAs could replicate Elsa and skip the "can't coup de grace Elsa" issue, but the CR increase would have to be pretty high to make up for it, and it would feel pretty clunky

Ultimately, we need to turn to homebrew (although it's not too much of a change). Elsa will be based on the 3.5 Warlock (at-will Su abilities focused around eldritch blast and shadow-powers); changes made include, at the very least, altering existing powers to focus more on ice/snow/cold effects, adding at least three additional powers (Ice Castle, Fimbulwinter, and Limited Wish or Wish {unless you think an ice-based Fabricate spell makes sense?}), and mechanics requiring a series of complex Will save checks to avoid losing control of your powers (to make up for the fact that you're getting high-level spell effects at-will). This still has the issue of "Elsa has too many HP for a low-level character can coup de grace her", but it's much closer to a perfect simulation.

TBH, Gurps, Mutants and Masterminds, or similar systems designed for making superpowered characters would be much better for replicating Elsa.

[Arbane]

TBH, Gurps, Mutants and Masterminds, or similar systems designed for making superpowered characters would be much better for replicating Elsa.

Or Nobilis. She's the Power of Ice, put most of her points into Domain and none into Aspect, so she's physically not stronger or tougher than a normal person.

[Shpadoinkle]

I'd say Elsa isn't modeled terribly well as a 16th-ish level Sorcerer. Instead, she's an archetype that D&D 3.5 doesn't handle well in general, the "civilian who developed a superpower." So she can do a few specific things that you can only do in D&D with high level spells, but she doesn't get the superhuman stats and large backlog of less-impressive-but-still-very-impressive abilities that you accumulate along the way to getting access to those spells as a high-level Sorcerer.

If I were trying to emulate abilities like hers in D&D, I'd make her something like a level 2 Aristocrat with some homebrewed SLA's that worked something like Dragonmarks. But of course that's not an option for by-the-book character building, because the game is designed around gradually accumulating power as you level up, not suddenly waking up with 7th level spell access for plot reasons.

I generally agree with this, but I disagree that it's particularly hard to handle in D&D, because you can simply apply a custom template to her and you're pretty much good to go. Mechanically she'd probably be a level 1 or 2 aristocrat with a bunch of supernatural and spell-like abilities, and maybe (but not necessarily) a few extra hit dice.

[Honest Tiefling]

Wasn't she implied to have stayed in her room for a few years? I think...Maybe a bit heavier on knowledge skills then social ones perhaps.

[Rubik]

A StP erudite with low Con who learned her spells during her decade-long reading binge could work, I think, though she has control issues when she gets upset.

[AvatarVecna]

Wasn't she implied to have stayed in her room for a few years? I think...Maybe a bit heavier on knowledge skills then social ones perhaps.

She was kept essentially in relatively complete isolation, yes...but she was a princess in line to become queen. Elsa was trained her entire life to maintain control over her powers, her emotions, and herself; combine that kind of self-control with the lessons she must have learned in preparation to become queen one day, and you have a very diplomatic, if relatively antisocial, monarch. In-game, this Cha-based character has a few ranks in social, but is depending more on her high Charisma to see the day through.

Not to say I have any doubt that Elsa's fairly intelligent, or has a lot of knowledge; I'm just saying her social skills (in regards to the D&D social interaction mechanics) aren't necessarily as neglected as one might assume.


A StP erudite with low Con who learned her spells during her decade-long reading binge could work, I think, though she has control issues when she gets upset.

StP Erudite has some problems; firstly, it's Int-based, which I don't feel really fits Elsa's fluff of emotion-based powers; spellcasters may not have an emotion mage, but Wilder is also psionic and fits the fluff better. Secondly, while the end result at lvl 16 (a psionic character who has several spells as powers) could do everything that happens in the movie, the process of learning spells as powers doesn't fit with Elsa's background. I mean, seriously?

"Your highness, I understand why we must keep Elsa within the castle walls, and more particularly in the small library room, but why are we leaving several books on the most powerful of frost magick spells within easy reach of the young princess?" "As your king, I once again command you not to question my incredibly questionable decisions!"

[Honest Tiefling]

Considering the king's bad plans and how crazily the place us run, leaving power eldritch tomes around does makes sense. I mean no one hears a peep from the surviving royal line in years and thinks everything must be dandy.

[goto124]

She was kept essentially in relatively complete isolation, yes...but she was a princess in line to become queen. Elsa was trained her entire life to maintain control over her powers, her emotions, and herself; combine that kind of self-control with the lessons she must have learned in preparation to become queen one day, and you have a very diplomatic, if relatively antisocial, monarch. In-game, this Cha-based character has a few ranks in social, but is depending more on her high Charisma to see the day through.

She doesn't really get to practice her social skills though, since she won't step out of the castle. Can't imagine her having a high Cha.

[AvatarVecna]

Considering the king's bad plans and how crazily the place us run, leaving power eldritch tomes around does makes sense. I mean no one hears a peep from the surviving royal line in years and thinks everything must be dandy.

I don't think it's quite that bad; I mean, what moved the plot forward is that the king and queen left on a boat, presumably on royal business. They may have kept Elsa and Anna under lock and key, and reduced the staff, but it seems clear that they're still active in the world and running the kingdom.


She doesn't really get to practice her social skills though, since she won't step out of the castle. Can't imagine her having a high Cha.

I disagree, but my the more lengthy version of my argument is unlikely to sway anyone: I simply believe that someone raised to control emotion-based powers while also learning how to serve their country as its monarch, even with limited social interaction, would have the training necessary to speak, act, and present themselves in an aristocratic, charismatic way. I think part of the problem is how difficult it is to fully define and quantify real-life representations of the mental alignments: there are many different types of charisma; Elsa almost definitely has some of them, and almost definitely doesn't have others.

I understand your disagreement, and I can see where you're coming from, but I maintain that Elsa is more naturally charismatic than you're suggesting.

[Rogue Shadows]

She doesn't really get to practice her social skills though, since she won't step out of the castle. Can't imagine her having a high Cha.

I disagree - everyone in the kingdom was excited to meet her, none of Arendelle really seemed to hold a grudge, and the idea of killing her was never really on the table for anyone other than Hans or the Duke of Weselton. By all appearances prior to her freak-out at her coronation ball she was making good impressions on the populace. Plus she's a Disney Princess, high Charisma sort of comes with the territory.

Not being able to practice her social skills means that she would have low skill ranks in the social skills, but doesn't say anything about her Charisma score.

[Thealtruistorc]

I forgot about him, but we agreed that he had to be a pseudo-deity, so we left him out. He is strong, anyway.

High-level wizards basically are pseudo-deities. Merlin is, even more so than Gandalf, the archetypal high-level fantasy wizard.

[Yael]

High-level wizards basically are pseudo-deities. Merlin is, even more so than Gandalf, the archetypal high-level fantasy wizard.

Wasn't Gandalf the archetypal gish?

[A_S]

I generally agree with this, but I disagree that it's particularly hard to handle in D&D, because you can simply apply a custom template to her and you're pretty much good to go. Mechanically she'd probably be a level 1 or 2 aristocrat with a bunch of supernatural and spell-like abilities, and maybe (but not necessarily) a few extra hit dice.
I mean, if you have to homebrew custom templates to get the effects you want as a DM, and you basically can't do it at all as a PC, that's pretty much what I mean by "an archetype that D&D 3.5 doesn't handle well." It's a type of character for which there aren't really rules in the game. Sure, with some homebrew, you can make rules to handle it. But that doesn't mean the system as written does a good job, it just means that you, as the DM, can change the system.

[Honest Tiefling]

It wasn't what happened with the boat (I think the Powers that Be refuse to let any princess have more then 1 surviving parent and they paid the price for trying to circumvent that rule), but rather what happened afterwards. Anna is singing about finally getting out of the place. She...Hasn't before? And everyone thought that they were okay?

Then again, I think people in Disney just have low standards for royalty. "Well, we've got plenty to eat, there's no evil adviser, and she's not trying to kill anyone. Good enough!" So what if she stays in her palace? There's no evil mustached people running around, so we're in the clear!

[Shining Wrath]

Since _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_ is a Disney movie (they are listed as uncredited producers on IMDB) ...

the most powerful Disney character, BY FAR, is Bugs Bunny. No contest.

At-will teleportation.
At-will ability to reach into his fur and produce ... anything. Anything at all. Artifacts? Dragons? You name it, he can do it.
He's got at-will perfect disguise across species and genders.
His intelligence modifier is +yes with a bonus of +yes for anything involving sarcasm.

As further evidence, consider his opponents - Elmer Fudd, Yosemite Sam, Wile E Coyote. Tools all, because rational foes with intelligence and sanity do not mess with the bunny.

Fear him. Fear the Eared Lord.

[Troacctid]

Bugs Bunny is an Animated Actor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimatedActors). He does all that with special effects.

[Shining Wrath]

Bugs Bunny is an Animated Actor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnimatedActors). He does all that with special effects.

I do not believe in your Animated Actor. Bugs is real, and mighty.

Do not doubt He Who Walks Behind The Rows of Carrots.

[atemu1234]

I do not believe in your Animated Actor. Bugs is real, and mighty.

Do not doubt He Who Walks Behind The Rows of Carrots.

Pth'agn bugs bunny!

[SirKazum]

He's Warner Brothers, not Disney. Otherwise, no contest :smalltongue:

[Honest Tiefling]

Roger Rabbit is a Disney production (Produced through Touchstone), which Bugs Bunny had a small role in, so...I guess both universes have collided.

[PsyBomb]

Roger Rabbit is a Disney production (Produced through Touchstone), which Bugs Bunny had a small role in, so...I guess both universes have collided.

The Dungeons and Dragons animated series is in the same boat. Amazing how meta things get when you run a Kingdom Hearts campaign for a year and a half

[Peelee]

The Dungeons and Dragons animated series is in the same boat. Amazing how meta things get when you run a Kingdom Hearts campaign for a year and a half

So Dungeon Master wins?

[Rubik]

Since _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_ is a Disney movie (they are listed as uncredited producers on IMDB) ...

the most powerful Disney character, BY FAR, is Bugs Bunny. No contest.

At-will teleportation.
At-will ability to reach into his fur and produce ... anything. Anything at all. Artifacts? Dragons? You name it, he can do it.
He's got at-will perfect disguise across species and genders.
His intelligence modifier is +yes with a bonus of +yes for anything involving sarcasm.

As further evidence, consider his opponents - Elmer Fudd, Yosemite Sam, Wile E Coyote. Tools all, because rational foes with intelligence and sanity do not mess with the bunny.

Fear him. Fear the Eared Lord.Bugs is borderline omnipotent, actually. In Duck Amuck, he literally steps outside of his universe and can repaint it as he sees fit.

[AvatarVecna]

Bugs is borderline omnipotent, actually. In Duck Amuck, he literally steps outside of his universe and can repaint it as he sees fit.

Sounds like an average Tier 0 wizard to me.

[PsyBomb]

Bugs is borderline omnipotent, actually. In Duck Amuck, he literally steps outside of his universe and can repaint it as he sees fit.

That power is in PF already, an Occultist Spirit (forget which one, and pfsrd is being wonky with that page)

[tomandtish]

How about Stitch? "He is bulletproof, fireproof, and can think faster than a super computer. He can see in the dark and can move objects 3,000 times his size (note: they don't say his weight, but his size). His only instinct — to destroy everything he touches!"

He also drove a supertanker full of gas into a volcano and used the explosion to jump onto a spaceship.

Stitch is awesome!

[Flickerdart]

How about Stitch? "He is bulletproof, fireproof, and can think faster than a super computer. He can see in the dark and can move objects 3,000 times his size (note: they don't say his weight, but his size). His only instinct — to destroy everything he touches!"

He also drove a supertanker full of gas into a volcano and used the explosion to jump onto a spaceship.

Stitch is awesome!
But does he have any recourse against being turned into a poop by a genie?

[Yael]

But does he have any recourse against being turned into a poop by a genie?

Good point, Stitch is also unperfect, he even malfunctions during the second movie. So, Magic? As always, magic wins.

Thinking about it, even the Fairy Godparents from The Sleeping Beauty are strong (permanencied Eagle's Splendor?)

[Odessa333]

Hm. Some other interesting contenders:

Aladdin himself. He must be packing some serious high levels in rogue (he gets sneak attack on many other rogues, even notably high level ones), he's skilled with a blade, and he has likely developed UMD a bit (he's seen using several magic item, from the carpet to many spells/potions in the show). With his high charisma (talks his way out of everything and woos the princess) he can get close enough to sneak attack and do some damage.

Horned king, black cauldron. Dude is supposed to have various powers that are never seen in this rarely seen film. He looks like a discount lich, so he may have some power there.

Peter Pan. Dude has some odd things going on. His flying never appears to be as dependent on the dust like every one else, being more 'at will.' He never ages unlike the others (don't ask) and his shadow is always trying to get away from him, so... evil much? Toss in some skill at sword play, and you have the making of underdog.

Dr. Faciler. He's got friends on the other side, and who knows what else. He says that even he doesn't know all he has access to, which makes him a wild card of the highest order.

Ursula, little mermaid. Original poster lists Triton as a god, and her contracts are so unstoppable they affect him as well. What the heck is she packing?

Fantasia. Sorcerer's apprentice Mickey? Or you know, throw in the devil of all people, because why not?


Throw in contenders from the disney afternoon and the like, and you have everything from the Gargoyles universe to people like Gizmo duck.



From the ones mentioned, for a fight I'd say Elsa. Merlin is too scatter brained in his disney appearance to be a threat to anyone but himself, and maleficent likes getting her hands dirty for a spell caster, relying heavily on her dragon form, for example (which as mentioned, Elsa can make a LOT of ice dragons). Genie's are the most powerful by far for raw power, but the 'no kill' thing does get in the way in a fight, and he is easily tricked. Elsa not only has power, but is clever in how she uses this power. Her big weakness' are 'resolved' by movie's end, so she has no clear Achilles' heel like the genie 'no kill' thing, for example.

My two cents.

[Madfellow]

She has no clear Achilles' heel like the genie 'no kill' thing, for example.

She did dump her Con stat though. There's that.

[Malimar]

Dr. Faciler. He's got friends on the other side, and who knows what else. He says that even he doesn't know all he has access to, which makes him a wild card of the highest order.

Whatever Dr. Facilier is (my money's on "witch with the shadow patron", as that's how I once built a character based on him; if we're going 3.5-only, he could be a druid), he's got enough levels to cast baleful polymorph (making him at least level 9). Which means if he goes first, his opponent is in trouble, unless they've got good fort and/or will saves (neither of which is something I'd ascribe to Elsa, though many of the other contenders have one or the other).

[PsyBomb]

Whatever Dr. Facilier is (my money's on "witch with the shadow patron", as that's how I once built a character based on him; if we're going 3.5-only, he could be a druid), he's got enough levels to cast baleful polymorph (making him at least level 9). Which means if he goes first, his opponent is in trouble, unless they've got good fort and/or will saves (neither of which is something I'd ascribe to Elsa, though many of the other contenders have one or the other).

Dr. Facilier seems to have a problem affecting unwilling targets with his actual magic. Prince Naveen didn't know what he was getting into, but he definitely accepted the spell.

[Heliomance]

No one's mentioned Cinderella's fairy godmother. How does she measure up?

[Threadnaught]

No one's mentioned Cinderella's fairy godmother. How does she measure up?

She seems to have trouble creating permanent effects.

Elsa and Genie are able to create permanent changes to their surroundings without spending ages singing about it, when they do sing about it, it just gets ridiculous what they're fully capable of.

[Hecuba]

She seems to have trouble creating permanent effects.

Or she could simply be a prepared caster who didn't happen happen to have major creation prepared that day. Clearly she some permanent ability, or she couldn't have made the shoes.
Fairy Godparents have lives too, you know: you can't expect us to build our daily spell selection around you every day, just in case you happen to call.

On a another winged-humanoid note: the Blue Fairly from Pinocchio.
We don't see her do much, but what she does do is very high level if translated to D&D. Simply giving puppet Pinocchio sentience would require making him a construct* and then leaning on Awaken Construct - a solid 9.
We could, alternately, write Pinocchio off as a tree and use Awaken, which is only Druid 5.

Then at the end of the story she resurrects him and changes him to a human, without any of those time consuming rituals or iterative PAO castings: why bother when she can just use Wish.

*Best option seems to be permanent Animate Object, though non-permanent AO is normally not a path to AC (it's the explicit example of the kind of temporary construct that does not work.


On another note, Mary Poppins is clearly at least in the low-to-mid teens. We don't see any 8-9 effects from her. But she's clearly tossing out quite a few 5-7s.

[MesiDoomstalker]

She seems to have trouble creating permanent effects.

Elsa and Genie are able to create permanent changes to their surroundings without spending ages singing about it, when they do sing about it, it just gets ridiculous what they're fully capable of.

This obviously makes them both bards whose level depends on whether they are in a musical number or not.

[ericgrau]

I think in Disney everyone down to commoner gets Empowered by Musical Number along with Speak with Animals so those don't really count. Combine the two and even a non-caster ogre can make the heads of animals explode with a song.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think only Misunderstood Heroes and Pure-Hearted Princesses get the speak with animal thing, actually. Empowered by Music Number doesn't work for villainous sidekicks, who often get hit or fall down during such.

...I wonder if those can become new NPC classes.

[Strormer]

The real question is, was Aladdin a prince all along, or was the Genie so powerful that he was able to retcon Aladdin's parentage?

OH MY... After almost 20 years... AHH MY BRAIN! (http://i.imgur.com/S4MYFQO.gif)

[goto124]

Could someone give an analysis of the various battles Elsa got involved in?

Wait, what sort of battles DID she get in?

[PsyBomb]

Could someone give an analysis of the various battles Elsa got involved in?

Wait, what sort of battles DID she get in?

One real "fight", the invasion of the Ice Castle.

Phase One: Marshmallow in battle mode v 5 opponents (two Crossbowmen, three swordsmen including the Prince). Prince nearly dies, crossbowmen sneak past.

Phase two: two Crossbowmen v Elsa. #1 gets Entangled and nearly impaled, #2 gets remote Bull Rushed nearly off a cliff. #1 makes a shot not quite covered in DnD, got deflected into an unintended target (implied that it would have killed Elsa, though it would have taken a GREAT deal of optimization to do that kind of damage from one shot). Elsa barely avoids getting crushed by the chandelier.

Phase Two implications indicate that Elsa has a SEVERE Con penalty, probably a 7 score (since she isn't shown ill, just physically frail and implied to die easily). PF can get much more damage from a crossbow shot, so assuming a level 6 Ranger with no more than 14 Int (because higher than that would NOT be a minion) we are looking at (tops) 32 damage (8+4(DA)+2(Focused Shot)+1(PBS)+1(Enh) x2 on crit) assuming a +1 weapon. With 7 con, this can mean a level 20 Elsa being killable if she got bad HP rolls (avg HP for level 16 will be 26.5, which can be dropped by a good crit).

EDIT: Forgot about the finale. Assuming she willingly submitted to a CdG from Hans (Fighter 8), he could (with a +1 Longsword) deliver 38 or more damage. Plenty to kill the above example, even with slightly better-than-average HP rolls.

[Malimar]

Could someone give an analysis of the various battles Elsa got involved in?

Wait, what sort of battles DID she get in?

From my recollection:


She accidentally defeated Anna with a blast of ice magic
Twice
She conjured Marshmallow to drive off Anna, Kristoff, and Olaf, at which he succeeded
Marshmallow went on to fight a squad of soldiers led by Hans, but lost
She faced the two Weseltown soldiers on her own, and was winning, until Hans showed up and one of them dropped a chandelier on her
The fight on the fjord, where Hans was about to kill her with a sword before Anna stopped him


That's only one clear victory achieved intentionally by Elsa. Not the most stellar record, albeit not too bad for a Disney antagonist.

[Threadnaught]

Or she could simply be a prepared caster who didn't happen happen to have major creation prepared that day. Clearly she some permanent ability, or she couldn't have made the shoes.

I can't believe I forgot about those damn shoes.


Fairly Godparents have lives too, you know: you can't expect us to build our daily spell selection around you every day, just in case you happen to call.

Somebody should sig a fixed version of this where "fairy" is spelled correctly.


On a another winged-humanoid note: the Blue Fairly from Pinocchio.

Looks like she uses a new Spell that has the effects of Animate Any Object and Awaken Construct for a limited period of time, possibly just a few days to about a week at most. Then she uses Incarnate Construct at the end, both seem to use 9th level slots. Her Wand is a Greater Rod of Quicken and the DM was new to the game at the time the character was made/played, that's why the casting time is 1 round.


On another note, Mary Poppins is clearly at least in the low-to-mid teens. We don't see any 8-9 effects from her. But she's clearly tossing out quite a few 5-7s.

Mary Poppins is a level 1 Kobold. She learned about certain ways to abuse the system then one day she announced out loud "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu" and gave herself limitless stats, invincibility, the ability to disguise herself as a Human and is now practically perfect in every way.
That's Pun Pun right there.

[goto124]

#1 makes a shot not quite covered in DnD, got deflected into an unintended target (implied that it would have killed Elsa, though it would have taken a GREAT deal of optimization to do that kind of damage from one shot). Elsa barely avoids getting crushed by the chandelier.

I think the Prince had delibrately pushed the crossbow upwards in that scene? So that her death could be written of as accidental or something. Not sure if it makes a difference.

That was a nice analysis, though.

[PsyBomb]

I think the Prince had delibrately pushed the crossbow upwards in that scene? So that her death could be written of as accidental or something. Not sure if it makes a difference.

That was a nice analysis, though.

Thanks. Spell effects can be hard to determine, but concretes like HP and damage are straightforward. The Entangle effect could have been a simple Web spell with thematics. The Bull Rush... well, any one of a dozen spells and powers can account for it.

[zergling.exe]

I can't believe I forgot about those damn shoes.

Wasn't it only one shoe that survived though? The one she left behind? Does that mean there was a contingent area Greater Dispel Magic (or possibly a Disjunction) on Cinderella?

[Threadnaught]

Wasn't it only one shoe that survived though? The one she left behind? Does that mean there was a contingent area Greater Dispel Magic (or possibly a Disjunction) on Cinderella?

Both shoes (glass "slippers") survived the night. In the morning the prince and his entourage carried the one she left at the castle, to her home.
One of her stepsisters (the ugly one), tripped a member of the Prince's trusted servants which caused them to drop and break the "slipper". Cinderella herself produced the paired "slipper" and she allowed the Prince to put it onto her foot.

[Deophaun]

Meh, I thought this whole "who is the most powerful" thing was resolved already when Disney trapped them all in a town and had them fight it out. It's Rumpelstiltskin.

[AvatarVecna]

Meh, I thought this whole "who is the most powerful" thing was resolved already when Disney trapped them all in a town and had them fight it out. It's Rumpelstiltskin.

...what? I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Deophaun]

...what? I have no idea what you're talking about.
Here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Once_Upon_a_Time_%28TV_series%29)
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

[AuraTwilight]

Which isn't really Disney canon in any way. Several characters don't even have the same capabilities.

[Deophaun]

Which isn't really Disney canon in any way. Several characters don't even have the same capabilities.
Considering Disney is not the original source for half of their own characters, I don't think talk of "canon" is appropriate. It's like disqualifying one aspect of a Harry Potter fanfic because a different Harry Potter fanfic said otherwise.

[Honest Tiefling]

I would think that the Disney Canon is their own universe, just how in DnD canon Dryads are...Somehow not nymphs? I mean, even Harry Potter itself probably runs rampant with ideas stolen from myths.

[Flickerdart]

Quite frankly, myths (perpetuated in oral tradition) are so inconsistent that they are useless as a measure of power.

[Deophaun]

A universe implies a unified thought. Just because they are from the same author or the same mind or the same studio does not put them in the same universe. Otherwise we'd have to say that Strange Magic takes place alongside Star Wars and Indiana Jones (and, following the Disney model of appropriation, Howard the Duck).

And you have to show that Disney even cares about canon in the first place. People have already grumbled on this thread that Maleficent wasn't accurate as to her capabilities in Sleeping Beauty. (I can't really speak to it because I didn't actually see the movie)

[Threadnaught]

People have already grumbled on this thread that Maleficent wasn't accurate as to her capabilities in Sleeping Beauty. (I can't really speak to it because I didn't actually see the movie)

Well Jolie's Maleficent and the original animated Maleficent are two different characters in stories that are only similar at a glance.

The original Maleficent, I find to be a more relatable character. She makes a plan to murder a newborn baby in front of it's parents and isn't stupid enough to stick around and allow the Spell to harm herself. She watches from a distance to make sure the curse takes hold, but manages not to get caught by those who would bring her to justice. When the curse finally takes Aurora, Maleficent does everything she can to prevent the other three fairies from undoing the curse, as Merryweather the blue fairy had already weakened the power of her curse greatly.
Maleficent is an amazing villain worthy of being an adversary for any hero. While Merryweather is the true hero of Sleeping Beauty.


Jolie's Maleficent is, an emotionally unstable brat. She claims to no longer care about the king, but decides to put the newborn murdering permasleeping plan into action anyway for the lulz. The wording is similar to the original, except instead of referring to the curse as a killing curse, Jolie Maleficent insists that Aurora would only look like she's dead, so it's fine, she's just a strong female character fighting toxic masculinity as we're shown the real villains are all but two of the male characters, one of whom isn't even human.
The other fairies wished for Aurora to be beautiful and happy, a good way to catalyze love (especially the second one, and it'd be true love) but it doesn't guarantee or enforce it.

Jolie's Maleficent, in all her spitefulness, declares that ALL WILL LOVE HER, which puts an end to the possibility of true love's kiss from ending it, because love spells, which is what the curse has become, cannot create true love. Except it's broken by the facsimile of love that it creates anyway.
Jolie's Maleficent doesn't hang back a safe distance to watch Aurora, she actively places herself face to face with the girl throughout her entire childhood, constantly interacting with her. Until she breaks down into whingeing and moaning because the curse demands it.
Then she visits the castle and in a fit of unreasonable rage matching that of a homeowner in the middle of a breaking and entering of their home, the king attacks Maleficent with his forces.

What Stephan did was terrible, but the only time Maleficent was ever held to account for her actions, was the scene the message of how unreasonable it is to expect her to pay for her crimes was hammered into the audience. It really makes me sick that feminist authors were praising this while bashing Frozen's Elsa, someone who took responsibility for her actions and didn't make feeble excuses.


I want to see the two Maleficents fight, so the animated one can tear Jolie's apart.

[AuraTwilight]

Jolie's Maleficent, in all her spitefulness, declares that ALL WILL LOVE HER, which puts an end to the possibility of true love's kiss from ending it, because love spells, which is what the curse has become, cannot create true love. Except it's broken by the facsimile of love that it creates anyway.

Or, as is often the case in stories like this, the love was genuine all along and the 'love spell' ended up being a descriptive oracle instead of a prescriptive declaration of causality like the spellcaster themselves imagined it to be.

[Invader]

Has anyone brought Dallben yet? He's reputed to be a pretty powerful wizard in his own right.

And I'll bring up Judge Doom not for being the most powerful by any means but because the only way to kill him his DIP lol.

[Invader]

OOOHH my vote for most powerful is Chernabog. He's definitely a diety. Some claim he's a representation of the devil himself.

[Threadnaught]

Or, as is often the case in stories like this, the love was genuine all along and the 'love spell' ended up being a descriptive oracle instead of a prescriptive declaration of causality like the spellcaster themselves imagined it to be.

Negative, it's part of the spell. She rightfully hates Stephan for what he did to her, and (wrongfully) uses his daughter as a way to get back at him starting with forcing people to love her so they're devastated by her not-death. It's not something she says in passing, it is something she channels into the baby as part of the spell.

She's right when she whines about making true love a requirement for breaking the spell made it unbreakable, because from that moment, all love from anyone who didn't already love Aurora, was tainted.
If her birth mother had just got up from her throne and kissed Aurora then and there, then there would've been less whining and infanticide apologists, but no, that's just the beginning of Aurora's eternal torment at the hands of someone who doesn't believe in consequences for her own actions.

Merryweather would be furious.

[AuraTwilight]

Negative, it's part of the spell. She rightfully hates Stephan for what he did to her, and (wrongfully) uses his daughter as a way to get back at him starting with forcing people to love her so they're devastated by her not-death. It's not something she says in passing, it is something she channels into the baby as part of the spell.

I'm aware. But seeing as she's unable to even undo her own spell it calls into question her ability to control and define it.



She's right when she whines about making true love a requirement for breaking the spell made it unbreakable, because from that moment, all love from anyone who didn't already love Aurora, was tainted.

Orrr...Maleficent's statement is in regard to her belief that true love simply does not exist, and the spell, in being 'programmed' to make Aurora loved by people, instead facilitates chance and probability to allow for natural affection to develop rather than brainwashing everyone around her.

Maleficent wasn't forced into anything; she pretty much chose of her own free will to constantly watch over and protect Aurora (as part of her schemes for revenge), but being a surrogate mother figure for someone for nearly two decades is going to change your relationship with them, one way or another.

Fairy Tale Magic is pretty subtle in this regard.


If her birth mother had just got up from her throne and kissed Aurora then and there, then there would've been less whining and infanticide apologists, but no, that's just the beginning of Aurora's eternal torment at the hands of someone who doesn't believe in consequences for her own actions.


What on earth are you talking about? Aurora didn't undergo any torment; do you remember that the other fairies blessed her to always be happy and whatnot?

My god, the time she cried at her 16th birthday might've been the only time Aurora ever suffered or felt sadness in her life up to that point.

It's pretty clear you have such a strong distaste to the movie, though, that you're not even trying to interpret it fairly, though.

[Threadnaught]

I'm aware. But seeing as she's unable to even undo her own spell it calls into question her ability to control and define it.

"This curse will last till the end of time, no power on earth can change it!"

That'd why she is unable to change/undo it with her own magic, because it's part of the curse that it is unbreakable by any means other than true love.


Orrr...Maleficent's statement is in regard to her belief that true love simply does not exist, and the spell, in being 'programmed' to make Aurora loved by people, instead facilitates chance and probability to allow for natural affection to develop rather than brainwashing everyone around her.

I am aware that Maleficent didn't believe true love was an actual thing, but that doesn't change the fact that she did cast a love spell on Aurora which would interfere with the possibility of anyone creating a bond of true love with Aurora.


Maleficent wasn't forced into anything; she pretty much chose of her own free will to constantly watch over and protect Aurora (as part of her schemes for revenge)

She chose to watch Aurora yes, but she didn't choose to fall in "love" with her. Up until just before her birthday, Maleficent treated Aurora as what she was to her, a weapon to be used to hurt Aurora's father. Then she spent a day getting to know her and began to "love" her.


being a surrogate mother figure for someone for nearly two decades is going to change your relationship with them, one way or another.

So does a magic curse that controls opinions.


Fairy Tale Magic is pretty subtle in this regard.

You've got to be kidding me? Fairy Tale magic "subtle"?
Okay, we've got a guy turned into a frog who can only be turned back by a princess kissing him, a child turned into a hulking beast while the castle serving staff are transformed into furniture, sentient mirror that shows far off places apple that causes eternal sleep and aging potion, short fey can feed an entire kingdom with a snap of his fingers, Aurora walking up to the spindle and pricking her finger you'd think she'd know not to after hearing about the curse.
If we're simply talking Mind Control, there you have it, we don't even need to leave the story we're discussing. Nothing says subtle, like being forced to commit suicide. You'd think the Sycorax in that one episode of Ddoctor Who, would do something a little more noticeable than line up a third of the world's population on every rooftop in the world as if they're ready to jump, but they took the most subtle option available to them.


What on earth are you talking about? Aurora didn't undergo any torment; do you remember that the other fairies blessed her to always be happy and whatnot?

My god, the time she cried at her 16th birthday might've been the only time Aurora ever suffered or felt sadness in her life up to that point.

I know, she's a classic example of a mary sue. Give her the flaw of being able to think critically and use a little something called logic however, and she'd spend less time forgiving Maleficent for that horrible, unforgivable thing she did to her as a child and go live somewhere far away from every single other character.


It's pretty clear you have such a strong distaste to the movie, though, that you're not even trying to interpret it fairly, though.

There are two iconic scenes involving Maleficent in the original animation.
The first is when she places a killing curse on a baby, which is unforgivable. Characters who murder defenceless children are EVIL! And it is clear that they are the villain of the story.
This scene was kept intact in Maleficent, what followed were several scenes of Angelina looking weepy. After going through those scenes, we're supposed to forget about why she put the curse on Aurora and remember that everything is King Stephan's fault because he couldn't bring himself to kill her.
King Stephan is such a **** because he fears for his life after Maleficent took away his family.

The second scene Maleficent is famous for is, turning into a dragon and nearly killing the prince. She notices he's about to revive Aurora, but in a desperate gambit attempts to stop him.
This scene is back in Maleficent, but it's really just there for iconic value and does little for the plot.


It's supposed to be a retelling of Sleeping Beauty, but Maleficent is the good guy and we need to remember it, so we're informed a few times throughout the movie. Okay so baby murder, prince, pet raven, three fairies, spindle wheel needle prick, dragon, kiss, the end.

You're right of course, I hate the Maleficent movie, I have stated this many times before, which the same criticism already mentioned. The only concession I am willing to give, is that if there were less focus on following the plot of Sleeping Beauty by using it's most iconic scenes, the plot may not have been as disjointed as I found it and I may have been able to find something I like about it. Because it felt like watching two different movies starring the same actors at the same time.

[AuraTwilight]

"This curse will last till the end of time, no power on earth can change it!"

That'd why she is unable to change/undo it with her own magic, because it's part of the curse that it is unbreakable by any means other than true love.


That still speaks to her own inability to control the spell once it's cast, either way.


I am aware that Maleficent didn't believe true love was an actual thing, but that doesn't change the fact that she did cast a love spell on Aurora which would interfere with the possibility of anyone creating a bond of true love with Aurora.

Except you still haven't demonstrated that this is the case. You're taking your interpretation and asserting it as one of the premises of your own argument, when countless fairy stories have 'blessings' like this function as Winds of Destiny Change.


She chose to watch Aurora yes, but she didn't choose to fall in "love" with her. Up until just before her birthday, Maleficent treated Aurora as what she was to her, a weapon to be used to hurt Aurora's father. Then she spent a day getting to know her and began to "love" her.

Did she only 'love' her then, or did she realize she loved her then? Again, intimately watching over someone's whole life tends to effect your emotional regard for them, that's just psychology.


You've got to be kidding me? Fairy Tale magic "subtle"?
Okay, we've got a guy turned into a frog who can only be turned back by a princess kissing him, a child turned into a hulking beast while the castle serving staff are transformed into furniture, sentient mirror that shows far off places apple that causes eternal sleep and aging potion, short fey can feed an entire kingdom with a snap of his fingers, Aurora walking up to the spindle and pricking her finger you'd think she'd know not to after hearing about the curse.
If we're simply talking Mind Control, there you have it, we don't even need to leave the story we're discussing. Nothing says subtle, like being forced to commit suicide. You'd think the Sycorax in that one episode of Ddoctor Who, would do something a little more noticeable than line up a third of the world's population on every rooftop in the world as if they're ready to jump, but they took the most subtle option available to them.

When I say 'subtle', I mean that fairy tale magic follows a narrative causality that tends to take the path of least resistance towards realizing itself.

Since you brought it up, the original Sleeping Beauty story has some caveats you're missing; the curse was that she'd prick herself on a spindle and fall asleep, and the intention at the time of casting was that this would happen in her normal life while she was sewing or something. Her parents went out of their way to smash up and hide every spindle and smash them up in a locked tower and, (in the original fairy tale, I don't know how much got into the movie), on her 16th birthday the spell basically had to bruteforce itself by reassembling a spindle, unlocking the tower, and having her go up and poke it, because dammit the spell was cast and it's going to come true.

Aurora had plenty of people who already loved her before Maleficent discovered she loved her. She had a love interest. She had three nanny fairies. She had basically every fairy friend she ever made in the glenn. The situations aren't comparable, implying pretty heavily that Maleficent's love was genuine. Hell, I'd say it's genuine simply because the spell specified "True Love's Kiss", and by your own argument magically invoked love cannot qualify.

Ergo, the spell influences the flow of causality instead of emotion-bombing people.


I know, she's a classic example of a mary sue. Give her the flaw of being able to think critically and use a little something called logic however, and she'd spend less time forgiving Maleficent for that horrible, unforgivable thing she did to her as a child and go live somewhere far away from every single other character.


Critical thinking doesn't exclude forgiving something. Maleficent clearly felt bad enough about it that she did everything in her power to undo it before the curse even fully took hold, and was probably one of the people most hurt by the fallout.

Maybe Aurora forgave her simply because she's a good person who has forgiveness in her character. I hate the idea that only idiots forgive those who wrong them.


There are two iconic scenes involving Maleficent in the original animation.
The first is when she places a killing curse on a baby, which is unforgivable. Characters who murder defenceless children are EVIL! And it is clear that they are the villain of the story.
This scene was kept intact in Maleficent, what followed were several scenes of Angelina looking weepy. After going through those scenes, we're supposed to forget about why she put the curse on Aurora and remember that everything is King Stephan's fault because he couldn't bring himself to kill her.
King Stephan is such a **** because he fears for his life after Maleficent took away his family.

King Stephan is also a sociopath who deliberately exploited and crippled Maleficent when he was just a boy for his own personal gain after honeypotting her into thinking he genuinely cared about her.

Maleficent's actions in that scene were wrong, but she isn't defined by them by the end of the movie. She underwent character growth and atonement, regardless of how well-executed you think it was.



The second scene Maleficent is famous for is, turning into a dragon and nearly killing the prince. She notices he's about to revive Aurora, but in a desperate gambit attempts to stop him.
This scene is back in Maleficent, but it's really just there for iconic value and does little for the plot.

It was kind of just for flair in the original movie, too.

[Ace Nex]

Trying to make Elsa you will run into a number of roadblocks as her powers aren't clearly defined to have limits. She was made with a different worlds lore in mind, but going off what we see in teh film I will try to answer the question.

If we assume that she is a sorcerer I think we are jumping a bit. There are several classes which buff cold spells which she specializes in but I would assume her base class is a sorcerer or some kind of Wu Jen. Sorcerer and the lack of control especially with emotions does make a good deal of sense.

First off, she creates a snowman, easy low level spell. She then gives it life, like the animate objects spell combined with awakening an object, a much higher spell (either 7th or 9th if I remember correctly, epic level spells can do so as well.

So using that we determined she is at least capable of casting 7th level spells, including ice castle in the famous "Let it Go" scene. However, her ice castle is MUCH larger than that in the spellbook, meaning she has some extra caster levels under her belt. If could be assumed she had multiple castings of different spells during the song sequence, but still the castle is several HUNDRED feet tall AND wide, and ice castle doesn't stack with itself across multiple castings meaning she would have to be in a different area per casting and link them up which we don't see in the song sequence. All we see is her making one castle. This would mean that her caster level would be nearing God level of power which would make sense because she accidentally instilled LIFE into an inanimate object multiple times.

Not to mention with a single control weather spell she dropped the temperature to have water freeze out of the air immediately to form icicles as well as nearly instantly freezing over a lake deep enough for large ships to travel on, as well as effecting an area so large it takes Anna and Kristoff nearly twelve hours to get to her. Control weather normally is only about two miles, meaning it must have been widened several times in the process. Fimbulwinter (an 8th level spell) on the other hand would effect a large enough area but both spells can't turn summer into the winter we see in the movies, meaning it must have been combined with a "wish" spell or several massively wide control temperatures to lower it to the level that would be needed.

In short, she is AT LEAST 14th level and probably much higher given the regularity of the spells she casts.

I would say her caster level is at lease in the epic levels as epic spellcasting would pretty much allow her to do everything she needs to pull of her spells.

[Kaidinah]

I don't understand how Frozen's magic could be converted to vancian. Sphere casting makes more sense.

A 16th level sorcerer knows more than just ice magic in vancian magic. Meanwhile, a sphere caster can specialize in weather (taking drawbacks to only manipulate cold weather), telekinesis (taking drawbacks to only be able to move ice), Nature (Again, ice stuff. drawbacks), Destruction (only to make ice blasts, shields, walls), Conjuration (to make ice minions), Creation (can only make ice stuff).

A character with these options is much more capable of representing Elsa than the god a 16th level sorcerer could be.

[dascarletm]

A 16th level sorcerer knows more than just ice magic in vancian magic. .

Unless they only pick Ice/winter/cold themed spells.

[Threadnaught]

Except you still haven't demonstrated that this is the case. You're taking your interpretation and asserting it as one of the premises of your own argument, when countless fairy stories have 'blessings' like this function as Winds of Destiny Change.

She outright declares that she made true love's kiss a requirement for breaking the spell, because she thought true love was impossible.
Having never seen true love as a direct result of magic before Maleficent, and witnessing destructive infatuations and obsessive desire as the only result of magically induced love, I doubt I'd be able to accept Maleficent's "love" as true love.


Since you brought it up, the original Sleeping Beauty story has some caveats you're missing; the curse was that she'd prick herself on a spindle and fall asleep, and the intention at the time of casting was that this would happen in her normal life while she was sewing or something. Her parents went out of their way to smash up and hide every spindle and smash them up in a locked tower and, (in the original fairy tale, I don't know how much got into the movie), on her 16th birthday the spell basically had to bruteforce itself by reassembling a spindle, unlocking the tower, and having her go up and poke it, because dammit the spell was cast and it's going to come true.

If you're referring to the original fairy tale, then you're wrong, I was referring to the Disney Cartoon. You're the one who brought up the original story, one which I am lacking certain information about. As for the cartoon. The bolded section is of importance for the next part of my response.

Wrong! Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Wrong.
The curse was that she would prick her finger on a spindle and die. Merryweather the blue fairy, used her gift not to undo the curse, but to lessen it's effect so Aurora would instead, fall into a sleep from which only true love's kiss could wake her.
When I said Merryweather is the hero of the story, this is exactly what I'm referring to.


Aurora had plenty of people who already loved her before Maleficent discovered she loved her. She had a love interest. She had three nanny fairies. She had basically every fairy friend she ever made in the glenn. The situations aren't comparable, implying pretty heavily that Maleficent's love was genuine. Hell, I'd say it's genuine simply because the spell specified "True Love's Kiss", and by your own argument magically invoked love cannot qualify.

Those examples are irrelevant if Aurora was under the effect of a love spell that affected those around her, which Jolie's wording indicates she was.
Unlike Aurora's mother at the moment immediately following the cursing, they were all exposed to the power of the curse which had the power to define their relationship with Aurora.

Jolie's Maleficent uses the exact same words as her animated counterpart, up until Maleficent stats Aurora will "prick her finger on a spinning wheel, and die!" which is changed in the live action version so it doesn't look as bad, problem is how her hands begin to glow with magic in the live action movie while stating that "The Princess shall indeed grow in grace and beauty, loved by all who meet her." making this, part of her Spell. In the animated movie, Maleficent stated this before using any of her magic on Aurora.


Maybe Aurora forgave her simply because she's a good person who has forgiveness in her character. I hate the idea that only idiots forgive those who wrong them.

Nope, this is not a case of me saying that I don't consider the story worthwhile (or think little of Aurora's intelligence) because Maleficent made Aurora look bad, or stole her boyfriend. Those are forgivable as long as Maleficent doesn't continuously hound Aurora about it for the rest of her life.
This is closer to Maleficent strapping a ticking time bomb to Aurora's neck, with a dead man's switch to prevent tampering, in terms of forgiveness.
Perhaps every single murderer who shows regret for their crime should be absolved completely?


King Stephan is also a sociopath who deliberately exploited and crippled Maleficent when he was just a boy for his own personal gain after honeypotting her into thinking he genuinely cared about her.

Problem, King Stephan did care about Maleficent, enough so that he couldn't bring himself to kill her and end any potential problems from springing up in the future. Because he wanted to be king and knew leaving her alive would be risky.
He wasn't a boy either, he was a man at the time and his lust for power just beat out his feelings for Maleficent when it came to her dignity.
I'm not excusing rape, because that is the only thing his act of taking her wings can be compared to, but there was a part of him that cared for her at the time.

He began to fear her during the time between taking her wings and her cursing Aurora. Then once she'd cursed Aurora, he spiraled into madness. I doubt he actually had any real feelings toward Aurora's mother though.

I agree that what Stephan did was also unforgivable, but he's the only named character to suffer any consequences as a result of his (and Maleficent's) actions. Additionally, his kingdom is full of people suffering from the fallout of Maleficent's curse, they have no leadership once Stephan dies and only know that Maleficent is the one responsible for destroying the royal family.


It was kind of just for flair in the original movie, too.

Nope, not at all. Maleficent transforms into a mighty dragon to prevent the Prince from reaching Aurora, she had already surrounded the castle with thorns, but her transformation serves an additional purpose to move the plot forward. By confronting the Prince, Maleficent exposes herself to her own mortality.
The villain dies because the hero defeated them.
Considering how her motivation for murdering Aurora was as petty as not being invited to a ******* party, it's required to explain why she doesn't try to kill Aurora afterward.

In Maleficent, she is trapped and burning away, but she manages to cast a spell on her pet raven and suddenly "roar I'm a draggun", then all the king's horses and all the king's men get her pet raven under control again. It's there because it's something that people associate with the Disney Animation and must be shoved in regardless of how little it serves the plot.
Remember the part where I said it seemed like a live action Sleeping Beauty being told at the same time as a completely unrelated story? This scene is one of the reasons why.

I may have liked Jolie's Maleficent, but not as it is. And that, is what I hate about Maleficent, the fact that had it been done differently, I could like it.

[Rogue Shadows]

Considering how her motivation for murdering Aurora was as petty as not being invited to a ******* party,

In fairness, she's a fairy queen, and an evil one at that. Fairies do not think like human beings. They quite literally can't. They can be similar, but at the end of the day what seems petty to us is can to a fairy seem like a great affront.

Or it can be petty and they're just looking to start some ****.

Fairies are like that.

[Kaidinah]

Unless they only pick Ice/winter/cold themed spells.
Are there even enough?

[Rogue Shadows]

Are there even enough?

Frostburn alone should contribute a huge amount, nevermind whatever Pathfinder's cooked up for Reign of Winter.

[PsyBomb]

Are there even enough?

Spell Thematics can account for untyped ones, Energy Substitution for most of the rest.

[Honest Tiefling]

I wonder, are there any archetypes that reduce spells known for a sorcerer that isn't Battle Sorcerer?

[AuraTwilight]

If you're referring to the original fairy tale, then you're wrong, I was referring to the Disney Cartoon. You're the one who brought up the original story, one which I am lacking certain information about. As for the cartoon. The bolded section is of importance for the next part of my response.

Wrong! Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Wrong.
The curse was that she would prick her finger on a spindle and die. Merryweather the blue fairy, used her gift not to undo the curse, but to lessen it's effect so Aurora would instead, fall into a sleep from which only true love's kiss could wake her.
When I said Merryweather is the hero of the story, this is exactly what I'm referring to.

Yes, I'm aware. But that's effectively what the curse IS by the time it starts doing anything. That you get so hung up on this detail only demonstrates my point that you're not really open to a discussion in good faith. I won't be responding to this tangent, we're going off-topic as it is.

[dascarletm]

Yeah there are plenty of spells cold themed. A friend of mine played a wizard that had only cold themed spells, and the rest were general enough to be spell thematic'd.

And he was a wizard with A WHOLE LOT of spells. :smallbiggrin:

you'd be surprised at how many things can be tweaked in fluff to be icy/cold/etc.

[Threadnaught]

Yes, I'm aware. But that's effectively what the curse IS by the time it starts doing anything. That you get so hung up on this detail only demonstrates my point that you're not really open to a discussion in good faith. I won't be responding to this tangent, we're going off-topic as it is.

That's right, ignore the issue, smugly declare yourself the moral victor and leave.

That makes you completely right and myself an unreasonable prick for daring to not like something you do and for seeing flaws where you're unwilling to.


Original Maleficent vs Jolie Maleficent: I think the Original would tear Jolie's apart, but without expanding on it, I am unsure how exactly. Though I do know Jolie's is vulnerable to her own magic.

[Hecuba]

Having never seen true love as a direct result of magic before Maleficent, and witnessing destructive infatuations and obsessive desire as the only result of magically induced love, I doubt I'd be able to accept Maleficent's "love" as true love.

And yet from the narrative, it seems fairly clear that Maleficent's "love" is supposed to be taken as true love. At the core, the issue seems to be that you disagree with the storyteller about what qualifies as true love. That does not make magical elements of the setting and story which are reliant on the story-teller's position to be suddenly internally inconsistent.

If we accept the storyteller's premise, the spell does exactly what it says it does.

The movie still plenty of narrative flaws and framing problems: there is certainly no need to balloon 1 complaint into several.

[AuraTwilight]

That's right, ignore the issue, smugly declare yourself the moral victor and leave.

That makes you completely right and myself an unreasonable prick for daring to not like something you do and for seeing flaws where you're unwilling to.


Original Maleficent vs Jolie Maleficent: I think the Original would tear Jolie's apart, but without expanding on it, I am unsure how exactly. Though I do know Jolie's is vulnerable to her own magic.

As you yourself acknowledged, you kind of rudely yelled at me for being wrong over an inconsequential detail for like half a paragraph. In what way is that not a call to pull out of the conversation?

And yea, you're starting to make personal attacks, so you kind of are being pretty abrasive.

[Threadnaught]

As you yourself acknowledged, you kind of rudely yelled at me for being wrong over an inconsequential detail for like half a paragraph.

It was less yelling, and more overusing the word "wrong" to express how very wrong you were in the least tactful way possible.

The difference between rendering someone unconcious and murdering them, is not an inconsequential detail. In the first case there is always the possibility the victim will wake up. In the latter case, they're dead, it's done, they're gone forever, they have left this mortal coil, their life is over, they have ceased to breathe, they are no more, they are no longer alive. They are deceased.

There's also a not so inconsequential difference between putting someone to sleep for an hour or so, like Stephan did, and putting someone into a coma, like Merryweather/Jolificent did.


And yea, you're starting to make personal attacks, so you kind of are being pretty abrasive.

You were clearly wrong about the curse in the animation.
Even now, you're missing the point during Merryweather's gift, where she makes Aurora appear dead in order to fool the curse. The curse still renders Aurora inert, potentially forever.
A bullet isn't any less lethal because you can hide behind a few inches of steel.

Which point of my posts is a personal attack on you?
Besides the first part of my previous one which is a description of your response.

You don't consider being told you're wrong to be a personal attack do you? I really hope I've got the wrong end of the stick here.



The movie still plenty of narrative flaws and framing problems: there is certainly no need to balloon 1 complaint into several.

The only criticism I have for your post is how you didn't get here sooner. My problem with the curse isn't the biggest complaint I have for the film, but it has caused the most problems here.

Between you, myself and AuraTwilight. You are the only person who is completely correct on this matter.
I have no idea how to make this, not, look like sarcasm. Shame.

[Yael]

Ignoring the skirmishes, I think Old Maleficent would be actually stronger than New's, due to the fact Oldie was a Wizard, and Newie a fey. Or something like that.

[AuraTwilight]

Which point of my posts is a personal attack on you?

Implying someone is smug and unreasonable does not engender them to want to continue speaking to you. And your harping on the curse's origins is irrelevant because I was only talking about the curse at the time it activated when I was describing it. It's origins weren't important to that particular paragraph. Now let it go.

[goto124]

Yeah there are plenty of spells cold themed. A friend of mine played a wizard that had only cold themed spells, and the rest were general enough to be spell thematic'd.

And he was a wizard with A WHOLE LOT of spells. :smallbiggrin:

you'd be surprised at how many things can be tweaked in fluff to be icy/cold/etc.

Could you kindly post the build here please, if you can?

If not, perhaps a few example spells and how they're fluffed to be icy?


Now let it go.

Let it go.

Let it go.

LET IT GO!

[The Vagabond]

let it go.

let it go.

let it go!
(sorry)
CAN'T HOLD IT BACK ANY MOOOORE!

[hamishspence]

Spell Thematics can account for untyped ones, Energy Substitution for most of the rest.

Maybe Eschew Materials, and its epic equivalent, might be needed as well?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Could you kindly post the build here please, if you can?

If not, perhaps a few example spells and how they're fluffed to be icy?


This wasn't directed at me, but I'll take a whack at it. I'll also take this opportunity to point out that the DMG states that you can do this without Spell Thematics if your character is only fluffing towards a single theme.

0-
Daze-The creature is briefly frozen inside a form fitting coat of ice.
Dancing Lights- Light blue/white and resemble snowflakes or orbs with irregular spikes.
Flare- As Dancing Lights or alternatively taking the form of a light frost covering the target for the duration.
Touch of Fatigue- The cold seems to sink into your core sapping your energy. You feel as if you have been out unprotected for hours on a winter's night.
Message-You feel a momentary chill on your ear as the message is conveyed to you're ear my an arctic wind.
Prestidigitation- This is one where you need to restrict yourself. Off the top of my head you could clean with icy wind and water, create small ice figurines and use the Damp and Chill functions.

1-
Endure Elements-Functions normally in Cold Environments. In Hot Environments it's a frosty aura balancing out the Heat.
Hold Portal- The door Freezes Solid.
Shield- As the attack is deflected a light blue barrier is briefly visible and a thin coat of frost grows at the point of impact.
Grease-Ice Slick
Mage Armor-As Shield
Obscuring Mist- Snow Flurries
Summon Monster/Conjure Ice Beast- This is a point where you have to pick your poison. Either ask the DM to put Conjure Ice Beast on your list in exchange for Summon Monster or use Summon Monster only to get thematically appropriate monsters. If you go the Ice Beast route ask the DM to give you an Ice Beast version of Mount, remind them how much less powerful than Summon Monster Conjure Ice Beast is.
Unseen Servent- I'm pretty sure there's a Seen Servent somewhere outside of core, you'll be taking that.
Color Spray- A Flash Freeze that stings the eyes, makes enemies numb to the point shivering in place and in extreme cases causes blackouts due the extreme cold being very brief Willpower can allow targets to fight through it.
Ray of Enfeeblement- Similar to Touch of Fatigue.
Expeditious Retreat-Looks like Skate.

I hope this is enough to get you thinking in the right direction.

[dascarletm]

Could you kindly post the build here please, if you can?

If not, perhaps a few example spells and how they're fluffed to be icy?


This is back in the paper sheets days, I don't have the sheets though. My friend might have it, but he and I don't live near each other anymore so obtaining it would be difficult. Hand_of_Vecna is on the right track.

I'll come up with a spell list though for a sorcerer that could fit Elsa. (I'll finish it once I've got access to Frostburn.)

I'd stat her as level 18 since she seems to cast Frostfell? I'm unsure though.

Elsa 18th level Human Sorcerer
HD: 18d4-18 (rolled 1's at every level that isn't 1st.) [20HP]
AC: 10
BaB/Grpl: +9/+9
Ability Scores:
Str - 10
Dex - 10
Con - 8
Int - 14
Wis - 14
Cha - 22 (18 originally)
Feats(I'll work out the details later): Snowcasting, Cold Focus, Frozen Magic, Cold Focus, Greater Cold Focus, Quicken Spell, Widen Spell, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell

Spells known:
0:
1: Grease (Ice Slick),
2:
3: Wings of Cover (refluffed to that Ice barrier she used),
4: Wall of Ice
5:
6:
7:
8: Fimbulwinter
9: Frostfell

Will finish later, but here is the start.

[Deophaun]

Obscuring Mist- Snow Flurries
There is a different spell that does that (obscuring snow), and unfortunately it has mechanical implications (interaction with snowsight).

You do have to be careful with refluffs in 3.5, simply because fluff and crunch are tightly interwoven.

[Oko and Qailee]

I'd probably put Elsa at 18th to 19th level, actually. She's hilariously powerful, right up there with Maleficent (who I'd put at 18th level because of Shapechange [Dragon]). Ice Castle, Fimbulwinter, Awaken Construct, Frostfell... she demonstrates a lot of high-level (in D&D terms) magic, and isn't even breaking a sweat at doing it. Granted, she has trouble controlling it, but she's got it all the same.

Honestly, this makes it sound more like Elsa is a S2Perudite with a Fiend of Possession possessing her (for the sake of mechanics).

That gives us:
-Infinite "Spells" per day (Bestow power shenanigans)
-Lack of Control (FoP)
-Access to frosty spells of frostyness