Command & Conquer series

[Kaptin Keen]

So this is the situation: An online shop offers the entire series for ... peanuts. 69 kroner, which is like 10$. 17 games.

Of all those, I only really enjoyed Generals and Zero Hour. However, quite naturally, I haven't played all of them. So thus, my question:

Are there any of the 15 C&C games I really need to play, or can I stick with the two I really want?

On a sidenote, I play single player. And I think the reason I dislike the others is that I just don't like acting - like ... actual people - in computer games. I really just don't like Cane (is that his name?!)

[Grif]

His name is Kane. :p Long live the Brotherhood!

On a more serious note:

You may play them in any order you wish. There isn't a must-play for the series, although some events makes much more sense if you played them in chronological order. Note that Generals and its expansion are not directly related to the main series in any way, except by name. But it's fun enough.

By far, the best of the series (personal opinion, some prefer others) is Tiberian Sun, Red Alert 2 and maybe C&C 3. The ones earlier than Tiberian Sun might be a little retro, so those I can only recommend to those who enjoy the nostalgia.

[Gnoman]

Generals (especially Zero Hour) always seemed really badly balanced in multiplayer to me. Is that a problem in Red Alert 2? (It certainly wasn't in RA1, where the differences between the two sides were very small.)

[Grif]

Generals (especially Zero Hour) always seemed really badly balanced in multiplayer to me. Is that a problem in Red Alert 2? (It certainly wasn't in RA1, where the differences between the two sides were very small.)

I never considered Red Alert to be really balanced in any meaningful manner like Starcraft. How was RA1 balanced? Sovs get better tanks and better infantry in RA1, while in RA2 it feels like it comes down to who spams the side's better tanks faster. (Prism Tanks for Allies, Apocs for Soviets. If you're counting Yuri then maybe one of their fancy gatling tanks.)

Then again, I only played multiplayer casually against my friends, so my words can be taken with a grain of salt. (They simply loved that arctic map with lots of oil rigs.)

[Leecros]

By far, the best of the series (personal opinion, some prefer others) is Tiberian Sun, Red Alert 2 and maybe C&C 3. The ones earlier than Tiberian Sun might be a little retro, so those I can only recommend to those who enjoy the nostalgia.

Weirdly enough, I enjoyed C&C 3...despite the

uninteresting and boring Aliens did it and now they're invading route they took.

[Grif]

Weirdly enough, I enjoyed C&C 3...despite the

uninteresting and boring Aliens did it and now they're invading route they took.

I actually did enjoy it as well. The aliens I didn't mind so much, considering Tiberium itself was alien in origin. For an RTS game, the story was par for the course and the game itself was appropriately shiny. (I did miss the Mammoth Mk II. ;-; )

At the very least, it wasn't as offensive as what they did in C&C 4 (that game is really where all hopes of a proper sequel goes to die), and too over the top like Red Alert 3.

[Abemad]

You do realise that tiberium dawn (the first c&c), tiberium sun (the sequel) and red alert are all available for free here (http://cnc-comm.com/)

That said, most of the games are definately worth a playthrough (I'd suggest red alert, soviet side, followed by the tiberium series).

[Leecros]

I actually did enjoy it as well. The aliens I didn't mind so much, considering Tiberium itself was alien in origin.

I suppose, however Alien in origin could have a number of possibilities. it didn't have to result in a malicious alien invasion.

[Winthur]

You do realise that tiberium dawn (the first c&c), tiberium sun (the sequel) and red alert are all available for free here (http://cnc-comm.com/)

That said, most of the games are definately worth a playthrough (I'd suggest red alert, soviet side, followed by the tiberium series).

True though I'd suggest downloading C&C1 from another source: Tiberian Dawn has a fix by Nyerguds (http://nyerguds.arsaneus-design.com/cnc95upd/cc95p106/) to make it work on newer systems with high resolution (although the game kinda starts looking miniature).

[Abemad]

True though I'd suggest downloading C&C1 from another source: Tiberian Dawn has a fix by Nyerguds (http://nyerguds.arsaneus-design.com/cnc95upd/cc95p106/) to make it work on newer systems with high resolution (although the game kinda starts looking miniature).

And the first 3 levels look rather weird because the map is smaller than the total resolution...

[Peelee]

Oh man, I was all up on Red Alert 2. The balance in multiplayer mostly comes from the faction you choose. The Iranians were pretty epic with the desolators, since you could pump out a dozen or so, irradiate a choke point or some strategic ground, and severely hamper movement (especially if you had aerial support via Kirovs or anything else what could survive near desolators). It's not too hard to break, but it incurs heavy casualties. Korean air force was also pretty epic - if you could turtle up behind defenses and build three radar towers, you could blow the enemy Conyard and turn it into a war of attrition. Some abilities were better than others, obviously - never really used American paratroopers, and the Lybian demo trucks were always iffy to use well for me. Also, well-made maps (ie, those with oil rigs, bunkers, destructible bridges etc) were really excellent for battlefield control, which could destroy otherwise great tactics. Only thing I wish RA2 stock had that Yuri's Revenge introduced was the ability to upgrade bunkered infantry. Wasn't all that big on YR as a whole, but filling a building to capacity near a strategic route and watching the soldiers pile out as elite units when the building finally fell was glorious.

[Closet_Skeleton]

RA2 is the only one I'd call "the Good C&C" but I haven't played Generals or Tiberium Wars/Twilight. The pre-RA2 games were alright but not as good.


I suppose, however Alien in origin could have a number of possibilities. it didn't have to result in a malicious alien invasion.

Those Aliens were already in Tiberium Sun, so they couldn't really not include them.

Most interpretations of the Scrin in Tiberium Wars say that they're actually just a mining operation and only fight battles to defend themselves. They're more uncaring than malicious.


Generals (especially Zero Hour) always seemed really badly balanced in multiplayer to me. Is that a problem in Red Alert 2? (It certainly wasn't in RA1, where the differences between the two sides were very small.)

Differences between sides in RA1 were so massive it was essentially asymmetric.

Allies had destroyers to attack subs and cruisers to attack land targets, Soviets only had Submarines to defend against enemy ships. Counter to this the Soviets had a mass of aircraft for various roles like anti-tank and anti-infantry while Allies only had fighters to defend against enemy planes.

Soviets had heavier tanks, Allies had anti-tank infantry and medics while Soviets only other infantry unit was an anti-infantry grenadier. Allies had anti-infantry vehicles like the ranger, Soviets did not.

Allies had a massive espionage system of Gap Generators, Spy Satellites, Spies, Thieves, fake buildings while Soviets only had the Radar Jammer.

Soviets had the Iron Curtain which was useless except for exploiting the stupid AI and the Allies had the Chronosphere which as just useless.

[Brother Oni]

I found that the fairness of the match in RA1, depended on whether there was water on the map. With it, the Allies were a lot more competitive and the more water, the more powerful they were.

The Chronosphere was also very useful for surprise attacks - chronoport-ing a cruiser into bombardment range of the soviet base during an attack and aiming for structures was often effective.

[The Glyphstone]

Man, Red Alert. Put so many hours into playing and replaying that when I was growing up. MAD Tanks were hilarious, I loved turtling and teching to nuclear bombs regardless of which side I was playing. I can still quote some of the units from the Counterstrike and Aftermath expansions, like the Tesla Trooper, and for some reason the expansion campaign where you fought armies of giant bugs is really prominent in my mind. RA2 was even better, and I'm pretty sure I had a virtu-crush on Kari Wuhrer.

Was so sad when they dropped the ball on RA3 the way they did. Even George Takei hamming it up for all he was worth couldn't salvage it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The problem is that Cruisers were the only thing worth Chronosphering, and then only really if it was a small lake you couldn't otherwise sail into because just moving in three cruisers with destroyer backup was cheaper than teleporting in one cruiser without backup and watching subs sink it.

Giving the infantry specialist faction a super weapon that kills your own infantry is stupid.

The counter point was that the Allies didn't really have anything worth killing with a Tesla Coil, apart from maybe the cruiser but I don't know how their ranges matched up. Soviet Mammoth Tanks weren't that useful either since the allies didn't have any offensive aircraft for their missiles to deal with.

Map dependant bias is a bad thing. RA1 was a nice idea that didn't work well but was still a big leap forwards in making micro important.

[Grif]

The problem is that Cruisers were the only thing worth Chronosphering, and then only really if it was a small lake you couldn't otherwise sail into because just moving in three cruisers with destroyer backup was cheaper than teleporting in one cruiser without backup and watching subs sink it.

Giving the infantry specialist faction a super weapon that kills your own infantry is stupid.

The counter point was that the Allies didn't really have anything worth killing with a Tesla Coil, apart from maybe the cruiser but I don't know how their ranges matched up. Soviet Mammoth Tanks weren't that useful either since the allies didn't have any offensive aircraft for their missiles to deal with.

Map dependant bias is a bad thing. RA1 was a nice idea that didn't work well but was still a big leap forwards in making micro important.

The Cruiser has twice the range of the Tesla Coil. So yeah. Even subs weren't a problem. Simply force fire and kill them with splash damage.

[GolemsVoice]

I am a great fan of the C&C series, and in my opinion, the best games of the series are Red Alert 2 and C&C 3, respectively. In general, I'd say that all of the C&C games are worth getting, including Generals AND Renegade (oh yeah!), even if the older games, like Red Alert 1 and Tiberium Wars/Sun will feel dated, and, with Tiberium Sun, INCREDIBLY SLOW.

That being said, I haven't played C&C4 and likely never will, and to this day I weep bitter tears of anger and disappointment because of what the game has done to C&C.

Now, if you're looking for a game where there's a lot of tactics, build and quick decisions involved, you should go for something along the line of Starcraft. C&C was always more a game of finding the enemy weak spot and then slowly but steadily exploiting the fact that the enemy will not rebuild his lost buildings, or if he does, only in exactly the same places.

[darksolitaire]

I am a great fan of the C&C series, and in my opinion, the best games of the series are Red Alert 2 and C&C 3, respectively. In general, I'd say that all of the C&C games are worth getting, including Generals AND Renegade (oh yeah!), even if the older games, like Red Alert 1 and Tiberium Wars/Sun will feel dated, and, with Tiberium Sun, INCREDIBLY SLOW.


I'm think Tiberian Sun and RA2 had the option to change game speed from + and - buttons in numpad or in options menu. Then again I may be thinking some other RTS :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

Giving the infantry specialist faction a super weapon that kills your own infantry is stupid.

The Chronosphere was brilliant. Aside from packing in nine tanks to ship off directly into the enemy base, taking some of their ships and dropping them on their own buildings was a great double-whammy - almost as good as getting an ore harvester or two and just dumping them in the ocean. That was just satisfying, man.

Oh, wait, Red Alert 1 Chronosphere? Yeah. That sucked hard.

[Gaelbert]

Generals and Zero Hour, as you mentioned, are both great. Renegade was criminally underrated, I think I played through it 6-7 times at the very least. I played most of the Tiberian games but unfortunately it's been so long they've all really melded together in my mind. The older ones were good I think. Red Alerts 1 & 2 are spectacular. RA2 probably edges out the original, bu they're both worth picking up. RA2's Hollywood mission featuring Flint Westwood & Co. alone would be reason enough for me to pick it up again. I got RA3 pretty soon after release (one of the only games I've bought at release-ish) and was pretty bummed by it. In retrospect, it's actually a decently fun game with some cool innovations but suffers in comparison to RA 1 & 2.

So as far as the "absolutely must play" category goes, I'd say RA 1 & 2, Yuri's Revenge, Renegade, and maybe one of the earlier Tiberian games, outside of the Generals and Zero Hour you already mentioned.

[Grif]

Oh, wait, Red Alert 1 Chronosphere? Yeah. That sucked hard.

They could have at least let us Chrono demotrucks. But noooooooooooooooooooo. :smallannoyed: (They exploded if you try this.)

[Aotrs Commander]

I am a great fan of the C&C series, and in my opinion, the best games of the series are Red Alert 2 and C&C 3, respectively. In general, I'd say that all of the C&C games are worth getting, including Generals AND Renegade (oh yeah!), even if the older games, like Red Alert 1 and Tiberium Wars/Sun will feel dated, and, with Tiberium Sun, INCREDIBLY SLOW.

Oddly enough, I found that TS - especially Firestorm - got the pacing about right with those massive maps at the end and the later games in the series were shorter by comparison. I work on the basis if a mission doesn't take at least and hour and more like two or three (or four, thank you Supreme Commander), it's probably not trying hard enough.

Though I think RA2 and TS were probably the best of the series... Though Generals was oddly enough the one I found I played on skirmish more than any others. (Largely, I think, because of the colour, balanced with the game engine. RA3 had a lot of colour (even I thought it was a little overboard...!) but the engine seemed basically built around rushing. The challenge bit of the single player expansion, for xample, I just gave up on when I realised that to win the later levels you basically had to make an early spam with VXs every time. Just dull.

I played through the whole lot (sans RA3) - yes even C&C 4 - a year or two ago.

One think to note about C&C 3 - the campaign was WOEFULLY unbalanced by all the later game-balances patches, which made some of the missions nearly impossible even on Easy. (Kane's Wrath was fine.) I'd nearly recommend playing the campaign WITHOUT any patches until the expansion (though skirmish is better for it. I assume, since I never played it much and don't play multiplayer at all).



C&C 4 was by far the weakest entry in the series for many, many reasons, but I didn't find it was completely unplayable as a game in and of itself, and in small doses (like repeatedly spamming an easy AI battles to build your level up) was quite jolly.

It was not, however, a good COMMAND & CONQUER game.

[Aron Times]

Shameless self-promotion: I'm doing a Let's Play of Command & Conquer: Tiberian Dawn (the first C&C game).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj4hRpDimw4&list=PLDu8ZuOVfkhlgJnGiBS8HprdK-yD_B2pA

This is my first ever Let's Play, and I get the sound messed up in some of the earlier parts. The sound gets much better starting at part 3, though. Part 2 had the worst sound.

Anyway, this might be a bit off-topic, but Petroglyph (made up of Westwood employees who refused to work for EA) is releasing Grey Goo on January 23, 2015. Grey Goo is a spiritual successor to Command & Conquer. Link spam incoming...

https://www.greybox.com/greygoo/en/
https://www.youtube.com/user/greygoogame

Oh, and the music is being made by Frank Klepacki (of Act on Instinct and Hell March fame). Here's the music trailer, which contains gameplay footage that captures the essence of each faction:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHDoudEsMsI

Edit: The Grey Goo are like the visceroids from C&C being a race unto itself.

[Aotrs Commander]

Anyway, this might be a bit off-topic, but Petroglyph (made up of Westwood employees who refused to work for EA) is releasing Grey Goo on January 23, 2015. Grey Goo is a spiritual successor to Command & Conquer.

Ooh. I had apparently looked at that at one point, but completely forgotten all about it.

I'm not going to jump in right away (since i've got enough games to be going on with between TIE Fighter and Tropico 4 (and wondering if it's worth fighting the game engine on Beyond Earth)... But they are talking single-player story campaign, so colour me interested. Far more than, say, Planetary Annhilation.

On the other hand, Petroglyph were also behind Universe at War, which was very promising but ultimately failed to deliver more than an okay experience (after all the patches.)

So I'm not going to get too excited yet.

[Eldariel]

Tiberian Dawn still has one of my favorite endings ever on the side of the Brotherhood. Other than that, I put countless of hours into Tiberian Dawn (then just "Command & Conquer") and later Red Alert. I even wrote a bunch of Red Alert and Tiberian Sun mods though I can't actually find them anywhere; maybe they'd be on some of my old HD backups. Red Alert tank rush was just hilarious in multislayer: Spam Refineries and War Factories and Heavy Tanks/Light Tanks and abuse the fact they can move and shoot.

Anyways, I'd recommend those two. Tiberian Sun was bad, Red Alert 2 was okay, Generals was decent, the newer episodes were "eh" in my books but overall I'd say the games most worth experiencing from the series are definitely the first two, even for all their problems.

[Aron Times]

So this is the situation: An online shop offers the entire series for ... peanuts. 69 kroner, which is like 10$. 17 games.

Of all those, I only really enjoyed Generals and Zero Hour. However, quite naturally, I haven't played all of them. So thus, my question:

Are there any of the 15 C&C games I really need to play, or can I stick with the two I really want?

On a sidenote, I play single player. And I think the reason I dislike the others is that I just don't like acting - like ... actual people - in computer games. I really just don't like Cane (is that his name?!)
1. C&C: Tiberian Dawn is the first game. It was the game that put RTS on the map. The plot revolves around Tiberium, a Toxic Phlebotinum that is an extremely plentiful and valuable fuel source. The Brotherhood of Nod uses Tiberium to fund its war machine, taking over vast swaths of the formerly destitute Third World. The Global Defense Initiative tries to stop Nod from conquering the world. The main campaign is good, but falls prey to Nintendo Hard and Fake Difficulty in the later missions. Westwood pretty much invented RTS (and its offshoots, MOBA and RTT), and they didn't really know which was good or bad game design then. The game has an expansion, The Covert Operations, which adds several Nintendo Hard standalone missions as well as a secret dinosaur mission, C&C Funpark, where Kane sends you to kill dinosaurs. Covert Ops was released at the height of Jurassic Park's fame, and thus the dinosaur missions.

2. C&C: Red Alert is a prequel to Tiberian Dawn. A time-traveling Albert Einstein uses the Chronosphere to assassinate Adolf Hitler before he rises to power, leaving a massive power vacuum that allows Josef Stalin to take over Europe. It's an alternate universe World War 2 with weird tech (Tesla Coil, Chronosphere, Iron Curtain, etc.). The main campaign is good and more varied than Tiberian Dawn. Counterstrike, the first expansion, adds several Nintendo Hard missions as well as the secret ant missions (where you fight giant ants). Aftermath, the second expansion, adds new units and more Nintendo Hard missions.

3. C&C: Tiberian Sun is the futuristic, dystopian sequel to Tiberian Dawn. It was released after EA's acquisition of Westwood, and its terrible multiplayer gameplay is a very Obvious Beta. The game is infamous in the C&C community for having a lot of Dummies Out content, many of them functional but buggy. Still, the single player campaign is excellent, if a bit campy and corny by modern standards. The expansion, Firestorm, breaks tradition by featuring campaigns instead of standalone missions, as well as having both factions' campaigns be both canon (previously, only the GDI/Allies campaigns were canon. It also didn't feature a silly secret campaign where you fight silly monsters.

More later. Gonna post this before my phone dies.

[Gnoman]

Westwood pretty much invented RTS (and its offshoots, MOBA and RTT), and they didn't really know which was good or bad game design then.

Not quite. Dune II did codify a lot of the standards of the genre, but the genre itself was created either with 1984's The Ancient Art Of War (DOS/Apple ][) or 1983's Stonkers (ZX Spectrum).

[Abemad]

3. C&C: Tiberian Sun is the futuristic, dystopian sequel to Tiberian Dawn. It was released after EA's acquisition of Westwood, and its terrible multiplayer gameplay is a very Obvious Beta. The game is infamous in the C&C community for having a lot of Dummies Out content, many of them functional but buggy. Still, the single player campaign is excellent, if a bit campy and corny by modern standards. The expansion, Firestorm, breaks tradition by featuring campaigns instead of standalone missions, as well as having both factions' campaigns be both canon (previously, only the GDI/Allies campaigns were canon. It also didn't feature a silly secret campaign where you fight silly monsters.

More later. Gonna post this before my phone dies.

Actually, the universe breakpoint is in red alert - soviet victory leads to the tiberium story line, and allied victory to the red alert story line.

[007_ctrl_room]

the C&C series is one of my all-time favorites, so a game pack like that is a must-have. i agree with most of the comments above, although I'm still playing red alert 3 constantly; red alert 1 or 2 though I would have to say had the most enjoyable multiplayer, but it's been a long time since i've done that on either.

who remembers playing multiplayer red alert on Heat.net? am i the only old guy here ha?

[Peelee]

Not quite. Dune II did codify a lot of the standards of the genre, but the genre itself was created either with 1984's The Ancient Art Of War (DOS/Apple ][) or 1983's Stonkers (ZX Spectrum).

I thought the RTS genre was created by a really hectic game of chess.

[Maryring]

Am I the only one who loved RE3? The amount of ham and cheese in that game made for an awesomely delicious sandwich... of ham and cheese. Sure, the micro involved in maximum utilization of your units was a hassle but... how can you *not* love parachuting bears?

[Ianuagonde]

Am I the only one who loved RE3?

No, you're not. A game with both Tim Curry and the Hoff is very hard to top.

[The Glyphstone]

Am I the only one who loved RE3? The amount of ham and cheese in that game made for an awesomely delicious sandwich... of ham and cheese. Sure, the micro involved in maximum utilization of your units was a hassle but... how can you *not* love parachuting bears?


It tried too hard. RA1 was pretty bland alt-history war RTS. RA2 took the same premise and added delicious ham and cheese - Nicholas Worth, Barry Corbin, Larry Gelman, Udo Kier did a beautiful job of hamming it up while keeping a world you could still take vaguely seriously, if tongue-in-cheek.

RA3 looked at RA2, saw it was so popular, and decided that must have been because of the ham, so they amped up the ham to 11 at the cost of everything else that made the game great. To keep the analogy going, they added an entire live pig and cow, with a slice of bread tied to their backs. George Takei and Tim Curry were entertaining, but even their best efforts couldn't salvage the game. The enforced co-op made a mess of single-player; on easier difficulties you could ignore your AI partner, on harder difficulties they got steamrolled and you were at the losing end of 2v1. The necessity of giving every single unit an alt-mode attack/function resulted in some extremely wonky and often useless abilities for needless complexity. The storyline jumped around everywhere and kept pulling things entirely out of nowhere for EVEN MORE ZANINESS. And Jenny McCarthy was a terrible Tanya (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArsonMurderAndJaywalking).

[Aotrs Commander]

I think the ham in RA3 was perhaps a touch excessive, but I didn't hold that against it. No, what got me was, as Glyphstone says, the single-player co-op and the bia-a-vis often enforced rushing, particularly on the expansion battle levels. Don't get me wrong, I liked RA 3, but I don't think it was one of the stronger elements in the series.

The problem was, the swung the exact opposite way for C&C 4 and among it's other sins, it took itself WAY too seriously. Hell, even Kane looked bored at times.

Also, C&C 4 remains utterly unique in the annuls of entertainment in making ME, of all people, ACTUALLY complain about the quality and lack thereof of the faceless general's enforced love interest on both an aethetic and character level. It was so uncharacteristic a reaction, it took my friends and family completely by surprise; me too, actually, sicne apparently I DO have some standards... Who knew? Normally, that sort of thing simply passes by me without any kind of judgement or care, but dear FRAG that woman was so repellant in every single aspect. I don't know exactly why that poor actress managed to provoke such a reaction from me of ALL people and close approximations of same but freaking hell.

I literally cheered when she died, and when during the Nod camapign Kane revealed that she wasn't dead, and the general could be reunited with her, I was like "no, dude seriously, I'm with you 100%, you don't have to threaten me!"

I mean, I did think the little poster with all the young ladies in RA3 that came with the collector's edition might have been slightly over the top (in mildly amused sort of way), but they didn't need to go quite THAT far out the other side to compensate...

[GolemsVoice]

Yeah, the weird single player/coop mix was strange, although I do imagine it's pretty cool when you actually DO play it in coop with another person. But most of all, as the other posters said, RA3 just overdid the zanyness, and while that itself isn't that bad, it looks like the game is trying to compensate its flaws with being SO COOL YOU GUYS.

It's not a BAD game, but compared to the much more organic RA2, it just loses.

[Peelee]

*Way too much truth*

That was pretty much the perfect way to describe my feelings.

[Closet_Skeleton]

RA3's cutscenes weren't just hammy, it was hammy and dull. Almost everyone was so boring and characterless, #I didn't even know who any of the Soviet Characters were supposed to be. It also makes no sense due to massive amounts of missing backstory between it and RA2.

The Campaigns were also all horribly short, made worse by having two enemies to divide your attention (Starcraft's campaigns generally limited you to fighting one enemy despite there being 3 factions for a good reason). The Expansion units are horribly over-powered.

The Graphics are also worse than RA2 in every way from a terrain standpoint and quite often worse from unit models and buildings one as well. But I also think Warcraft 2 has better Graphics than Warcraft 3

[Grif]

Yeah, the weird single player/coop mix was strange, although I do imagine it's pretty cool when you actually DO play it in coop with another person. But most of all, as the other posters said, RA3 just overdid the zanyness, and while that itself isn't that bad, it looks like the game is trying to compensate its flaws with being SO COOL YOU GUYS.

It's not a BAD game, but compared to the much more organic RA2, it just loses.

Playing it as coop made it a bit better, but honestly it still felt tacked on. I wouldn't recommend going through the trouble. (I have a very dim view of RA3 in general.)

[darksolitaire]

It also makes no sense due to massive amounts of missing backstory between it and RA2.

I assumed that RA3's intro happens at the same time as does allied victory in RA2 :smallconfused:

[Closet_Skeleton]

I assumed that RA3's intro happens at the same time as does allied victory in RA2 :smallconfused:

RA3 is set in the 80s and RA2 is set in the 70s despite both of them feeling like the 2000s, so no.

Yuri's Revenge presumably happens after the allied victory in RA2, and that already screwed with the timeline enough to make neither or RA2's campaigns canon.

To make even less sense, the final Soviet mission in RA3 is the first allied mission in RA2.

[Maryring]

A lot of those problems honestly don't bother me though. I shut of my brain the moment we got a swedish-german moaning about the space-time continuum, so the story itself being nonsensical didn't bother me. I just enjoyed Mount Rushmore shooting lasers, and Japan fielding giant mecha. I'll admit though, I never played the multiplayer. I got my primary enjoyment out of doing the challenges. Those were a lot of fun.

[IthilanorStPete]

I've got fond memories of Red Alert 2, I played it a bunch when I was a kid. C&C Generals is pretty fun, but very different from the other C&C games, and it's political tones and associations don't sit well with me as I've aged. Renegade was a ton of fun; it had an absolutely fantastic multiplayer mode that involved fighting between two bases, with players using points they earned to buy better classes for a given life or purchase vehicles.

[Malistrae]

My biggest gripe against RE3 was that it was very unfriendly to modders. There was a fan project called Red Alert: Paradox, which would have explored an alternate RE universe, with a lot of highly unique factions. It even had a wiki. Sadly, the developers gave up because it proved impossible to work with the game's engine.
If EA had a iota of sense (which they don't), they would have adopted the Paradox project, instead of trying (and failing) with the new Generals knockoff. Of course, there might have been legal considerations, which I am not aware of, since I only studied the basics of american copyright law.

[Aotrs Commander]

instead of trying (and failing) with the new Generals knockoff.

Did anything actually happen with that in the end? I know there was some sort of free to play thing rumoured, but I don't recall whether it came to anything or not. I assume not, or it was so DungeonKeeper-mobile release bad it doesn't warrent attention.

[The Glyphstone]

According to Wikipedia, it got cancelled in 2013.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_%26_Conquer_%282013_video_game%29#As_Gener als_2

[Aotrs Commander]

Oh.

Can't say I'm surprised. EA have just lost any semblence of sanity.

Didn't they even admit - about the time they released the RA3 expansion - that they had statistics that said only a fraction of the people buying C&C games ever played online and the larger majority were all playing it for the campaign? Then again, SimCity. So. Yeah.

This obsession of theirs with trying to force multiplayer on everyone (and some of us EMPHATICALLY don't want to play multiplayer, thanks) is... going to do what's it's doing, I guess, slowly haemoharrge away their old loyal customer base. They'll come a proper cropper eventually, I'm sure; it's just a shame they're dragging so many decent companies and IPs down into their drain with them.

In the meantime, there's a good reason why I am waiting on about five kickstarter games instead of looking forward to the new big releases nowadays...

[Malistrae]

Oh.

Can't say I'm surprised. EA have just lost any semblence of sanity.

Didn't they even admit - about the time they released the RA3 expansion - that they had statistics that said only a fraction of the people buying C&C games ever played online and the larger majority were all playing it for the campaign? Then again, SimCity. So. Yeah.

This obsession of theirs with trying to force multiplayer on everyone (and some of us EMPHATICALLY don't want to play multiplayer, thanks) is... going to do what's it's doing, I guess, slowly haemoharrge away their old loyal customer base. They'll come a proper cropper eventually, I'm sure; it's just a shame they're dragging so many decent companies and IPs down into their drain with them.

In the meantime, there's a good reason why I am waiting on about five kickstarter games instead of looking forward to the new big releases nowadays...

Kickstarter games are gaining foothold in the industry, because they mostly circumvent the delusional executives, who only care about pleasing the investors with large profit margins, and make horrible design decisions, geared towards the lowest common denominator, with catastrophic consequences for the IP. While crowdfunding has its issues, I see it as a possible avenue of quality niche games remaining in the market, since most gaming companies are devoted to making "casual" and "mainstream" games.
Unfortunately, C&C is not going to get on its feet for a long time. The Tiberium series has been killed off with C&C 4, and Red Alert seems to be on the backburner.
An idea sprung to my mind. Would it be possible for a development team to take Red Alert: Paradox, get permission from the modders (they are already releasing their assets, and openly invited modders to try finishing the mod, so I wouldn't think this would be an issue), rename stuff within it and reshuffle the story and setting a bit to avoid copyright protection (which would be easy since it is alternate universe and only tangentially related to the original game), and post it on kickstarter as a spiritual successor of C&C-style RTS games?
With a reputable development team, I think it would be funded quite fast.

[Brother Oni]

An idea sprung to my mind. Would it be possible for a development team to take Red Alert: Paradox, get permission from the modders (they are already releasing their assets, and openly invited modders to try finishing the mod, so I wouldn't think this would be an issue), rename stuff within it and reshuffle the story and setting a bit to avoid copyright protection (which would be easy since it is alternate universe and only tangentially related to the original game), and post it on kickstarter as a spiritual successor of C&C-style RTS games?
With a reputable development team, I think it would be funded quite fast.

I suspect they might become a cropper on the licensing rights for the engine, which is typically independent of the game itself, and securing the proper authority and fees for that would probably significantly raise the minimum funding threshold.

The other issue is that the reason why RA: Paradox was cancelled, is that the engine was simply too difficult to work with (link (http://www.moddb.com/mods/red-alert-3-paradox/news/realtalk)) - if one company had tried and failed, it doesn't sound likely that another development team would do any better.

[Malistrae]

I suspect they might become a cropper on the licensing rights for the engine, which is typically independent of the game itself, and securing the proper authority and fees for that would probably significantly raise the minimum funding threshold.

The other issue is that the reason why RA: Paradox was cancelled, is that the engine was simply too difficult to work with (link (http://www.moddb.com/mods/red-alert-3-paradox/news/realtalk)) - if one company had tried and failed, it doesn't sound likely that another development team would do any better.
Yeah, but what I referred to was adopting and slightly modifying (to prevent copyright issues with the Red Alert IP) Paradox's factions, concepts and planned gameplay and making an entirely new RTS with a different engine. Of course, I didn't state it precisely in my previous post.
So, if we remove the hurdles of the RE3 engine, and the copyright issues with the C&C setting (through modifying the plot a little), would it be possible to remake Paradox as a new, standalone game, through crowdfunding by a competent development team? Of course, the minimum goal would still have to be raised higher, since using a different engine would also cost fees.

[Closet_Skeleton]

More C&C is basically not going to happen in any meaningful way since Warcraft's style became so much more popular with developers when RTS games were a big thing people made and nobody makes RTS games any more. C&C was doomed to become ever more Warcraft like even as other games moved more towards realism.

The only idea I had that worked better in a C&C style setup rather than a Warcraft one (I had more ideas for neither of course) would be a Steampunk version (aka Red Alert meets Railway Tychoon). Rather than just being able to deploy buildings adjacent/near to other buildings, you have to deploy them anywhere alone a railway line connected to your construction yard. You'd also be able to lay down track yourself, have transports and artillery that can only move on railways and regular units that can move anywhere but should avoid railways in order to not be run over. There could be some kind of supply system where units would run out of ammo without supply trains and lots of offensive uses for defensive buildings for a ww1 trenches feel so you have to build aggressively with potential to end up in a vs tower defence scenario.

So basically a RTS for people who like turtling and trains.



So, if we remove the hurdles of the RE3 engine, and the copyright issues with the C&C setting (through modifying the plot a little), would it be possible to remake Paradox as a new, standalone game, through crowdfunding by a competent development team?

Maybe, but why?

Paradox only really existed as a joke about RA3. If one was going to make a crowdfunded C&C clone they'd start from scratch.

[IthilanorStPete]

The only idea I had that worked better in a C&C style setup rather than a Warcraft one (I had more ideas for neither of course) would be a Steampunk version (aka Red Alert meets Railway Tychoon). Rather than just being able to deploy buildings adjacent/near to other buildings, you have to deploy them anywhere alone a railway line connected to your construction yard. You'd also be able to lay down track yourself, have transports and artillery that can only move on railways and regular units that can move anywhere but should avoid railways in order to not be run over. There could be some kind of supply system where units would run out of ammo without supply trains and lots of offensive uses for defensive buildings for a ww1 trenches feel so you have to build aggressively with potential to end up in a vs tower defence scenario.

So basically a RTS for people who like turtling and trains.

I wish more strategy games made the player think about logistics. Not many do, in my experience, at least without getting into the really detailed wargames. *sigh*

[Lentrax]

RA2 probably was the highlight of the series for me. It mixed the right amount of cheese and ham with a gameplay that I have not seen convincingly remade since.

Though I did enjoy some of the scenes in RA3 with Tim Curry. Not the game itself mind, but the cutscenes were at least pretty Good Okay Well they were not bad.

[Grif]

RA2 probably was the highlight of the series for me. It mixed the right amount of cheese and ham with a gameplay that I have not seen convincingly remade since.

Though I did enjoy some of the scenes in RA3 with Tim Curry. Not the game itself mind, but the cutscenes were at least pretty Good Okay Well they were not bad.

I always liked President Apple Pie. And the British chap. He seems cool. Everyone on the Soviet side felt forced though, and the on the Japanese side only Takei could save it.

[The Glyphstone]

Oh, and the Eastern European Accented Soviet Scientist Who We Swear Isn't a Lame Replacement For Einstein. Hated him, so much.

[Bob of Mage]

If you any of you faceless internet beings liked Generals, I'd check out the Rise of the Reds, and Shockwave mod. Both do a good of making the game better.

Shockwave is more or less an overhaul of Zero Hour which tries to fix up the sub-factions and add better favour. Laser General gets lasers on EVERYTHING, and I mean it. The Tank General gets some new toys to work with instead of just having pre-promted units. Airforce General is not so overpowered, while at the same time getting more aircraft like a flying builder, and an light attack UAV. The also add the "super" factions as a homebrewed General for each side. So nice idea they had.

Rise of the Reds is the closest you'll get to a Generals 2.0 any time soon. It's set after the plot of Zero Hour and addeds the Russia and the Europe. The three base factions keep thier core playstyle, but there are a number of overhauls. For example there are now much more powerful anti-air options that can stop a jet cold (swarms of aircraft can overwhelm most of the teir two AA). The Russian play as a steamroller who are unstoppable once they get going and like to smash down the front door, but have a hard time gaining steam (costly units early game). The ECA is meant to turtle, and has many options for diggin in. The also steal some of the USA's thunder for high tech weapons (power armour, solar power death ray).

There's quite a lot of lore done for ROTRs. It real helps it feel like your fighting in a new world and not just a project that new some new shiny toys. However the mod isn't 100% finsh as they are still working on it. Yes that's right they are still working a C&C Generals mod! All the factions are in and playable, the biggest issue is the lack of generals for each faction.

[GolemsVoice]

I would really love if they would explore the setting of RA 3 some more. The game itself did a lot of nice world building in their info texts, and I think there is potential for something beside an RTS. Maybe a high school dating sim?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Too bad the only way you can get Generals/Zero Hour is via Origin these days. I decline to install rootkits. Ahh well, such is life.

[Peelee]

I would really love if they would explore the setting of RA 3 some more. The game itself did a lot of nice world building in their info texts, and I think there is potential for something beside an RTS. Maybe a high school dating sim?

Eh, i got burned out on the RTS turns High School Dating Sim genre back when Sins of a Solar Empire did it.

[Aotrs Commander]

Eh, i got burned out on the RTS turns High School Dating Sim genre back when Sins of a Solar Empire did it.

???

Wha? I...

When did Sins of a Solar Empire ever do anythig like that?

If anything, I found Sins' main problem, despite being an okay game, was it was rather devoid of any kind of story/character experience and a bit flat. Did they release a single player story campaign or something when I wasn't looking?

[Peelee]

???

Wha? I...

When did Sins of a Solar Empire ever do anythig like that?

If anything, I found Sins' main problem, despite being an okay game, was it was rather devoid of any kind of story/character experience and a bit flat. Did they release a single player story campaign or something when I wasn't looking?

A joke, played off the first dating sim joke. At least, I think that was a joke. Like, 80% sure.

And I really loved Sins. Still do. Rebellion is wonderful. Although now all I can think about is the grizzled old TEC commander in his teens hitting on the Advent left and right, while a Vasari awkwardly tries to flirt with the robot, and then steals some food off its lunch tray and runs.

Oh, and no, no single player campaign. There is story in the lore, which helps define each race, but other than that no. That was the game's only weakness, I thought; absolutely stellar (GET IT?) in everything else.

[Aotrs Commander]

A joke, played off the first dating sim joke. At least, I think that was a joke. Like, 80% sure.

And I really loved Sins. Still do. Rebellion is wonderful. Although now all I can think about is the grizzled old TEC commander in his teens hitting on the Advent left and right, while a Vasari awkwardly tries to flirt with the robot, and then steals some food off its lunch tray and runs.

Oh, and no, no single player campaign. There is story in the lore, which helps define each race, but other than that no. That was the game's only weakness, I thought; absolutely stellar (GET IT?) in everything else.

*completely missed the joke*

*skullpalm*

This is what happens when I post first thing in the morning afternoon.

I passed on Rebellion, after realising I hadn't really played the game at all since the previous expansions. I tend to find that my 4X fix is currently coming from either SotS 1, SotS 2 or a bit of Space Empire V (though I suspect the novelty of the latter and being able to do anything and everything will wear off after a bit).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

*completely missed the joke*

*skullpalm*

This is what happens when I post first thing in the morning afternoon.

I passed on Rebellion, after realising I hadn't really played the game at all since the previous expansions. I tend to find that my 4X fix is currently coming from either SotS 1, SotS 2 or a bit of Space Empire V (though I suspect the novelty of the latter and being able to do anything and everything will wear off after a bit).

You might want to try out FreeOrion (www.freeorion.org), which is an open source 4X game. Contrary to the name, it isn't just a remake of MoO, it's got some very interesting and unique mechanics you might want to check out.

[Peelee]

*completely missed the joke*

*skullpalm*

This is what happens when I post first thing in the morning afternoon.

I passed on Rebellion, after realising I hadn't really played the game at all since the previous expansions. I tend to find that my 4X fix is currently coming from either SotS 1, SotS 2 or a bit of Space Empire V (though I suspect the novelty of the latter and being able to do anything and everything will wear off after a bit).

The faction abilities added a lot, and the Titans were flat-out game changing. The Vasari especially have very unique ability - they can scuttle whole planets. Strip mine and run tactics. Turns a planet into a dead asteroid, and a dead asteroid into an asteroid field. Amazing way to deprive enemies of planets, gives a massive influx of resources, and since their capital ships can double as research stations, they can constantly move the entire Maginot Line forward while still space hopping on their Kostura Cannon if you want a lot of dead gravity wells between your home and the front lines.

It's on steam sale a fair amount. Even if you haven't played in so long, it's worth checking out to see how much its changed. But again, I am a massive fan of it to start with, so take that for what its worth.

[Draconi Redfir]

i played C&C 3 and it's expansion, and a little bit of C&C 4 before giving up on it.

i always found it silly that GDI and NOD were focusing so much on fighting eachother rather then trying to remove the tiberium, so i was happy when i saw a faction of GDI in the C&C 3 expansion created spesifically for destroying tiberium. i played as them in a few multiplayer games.

i had high hopes for C&C 4 when i saw that Kane approached the GDI with an offer to use that magic orb thingy and a truce with them to get rid of the Tibirum. and i was shocked when the story baisically depicted the GDI people as the ones who wanted to betray Kane and NOT get rid of the Tibirium. so i played nod until i got to a level i just couldn't beat and gave up.


in short; i feel like the biggest enemy in the C&C universe is the tibirium itself, and that story-wise, more thought should have been put into dealing with it rather then fighting over petty things.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I didn't really thing Generals was particularly balanced, moreso with Zero Hour addon. However, they were all equally cheap.

USA pretty much could turtle up and airstrike their way to victory using the Aurora Bomber. Paladin tanks made it difficult to really do much to them. Drones could keep an eye on everyone until they started getting stealth detection. Their supeweapon, however, was the worst. Missile launcher was effective against air and tanks. Putting a sniper or two nearby let you pick off infantry for solid defenses until someone brought in an artillery piece. Flash bangs on infantry was also pretty darn cheap.

China had the best superweapon and could pretty much sit back and nuke to their heart's content, or could jut amass a huge tank army and proceed to roflstomp. The gatling turrets were nigh invincible against air and infantry, although their anti-armor was less than optimal. The MIG's weren't as amazing as the bombers the USA had, but they worked well enough.

GLA was the cheap side. With Jarman Kel, you could snipe drivers out of vehicles, particularly useful against bulldozers as an alternative to capturing buildings to gain access to the other tech. Using an infantry drop with stealthed infantry led to a 'viral' takeover strategy that was obnoxious. Not needing power, they could be more decentralized, but were horribly vulnerable if they didn't layer their defenses.

Best tactic: Start out as either USA or China, capture the other one's command center. Stack missile turrets with gatling turets, proceed to bomb or nuke everyone else off the map.

Zero Hour was worse, actually. Some of the sides were just plain better than others.

USA Superweapon, for example, had the missile turrets that would shut down vehicles. They were actually better anti-air than the lasers that were *supposed* to be the ultimate anti-air, because one hit would disable the aircraft and send it to the ground. Their bombers were better too. Pretty much one of the most powerful sides.

Laser wasn't too bad, solid defenses and the superweapon had more of a punch, but not really all that special.

USA Air, for all that it was supposed to be the ultimate air-assault, sucked. The superweapon bombers were better.

GLA just kinda got screwed in Zero Hour. Stealth was countered easily enough, it was more obnoxious than debilitating. It just required stealth detection on every assault. Toxin didn't really have anything relevant to taking out bases, and too much chance of friendly fire. Demo was the worst of the three, getting nothing relevant.

China Nuke wasn't too bad, they at least had the gatling turrets, and their nukes were more nukey. China Tank was less impressive. There were too many other sides who could hard-counter massed tanks. China Infantry had a cute trick with the Chinnok with the pods that let the infantry inside shoot out. Made them super Comanche, basically. Five rocket and five gatling infantry could make a nasty weapons platform. Expensive when they went down, though. They also had the best hackers for passive income.

Overall, USA Super or China Nuke were the best by a long mile, with China Infantry useful for an early rush against a close opponent. GLA Stealth could be obnoxiously annoying by building bases all over the gorraman place that are a pain to hunt down and kill, but that doesn't make them any more dangerous on attack.