How to make an effective whip-wielding character?

[Abrasis Mindlef]

Whips (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/whip) are interesting weapons:


A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.

Weapon Features: finesse, reach, disarm, trip.

At first glance, this seems to be a highly impractical weapon. Nonetheless, I'm intrigued by its potential - mainly due to the fact that it provides excellent reach, even beyond that of ordinary reach weapons.


Concerning Whips and Large/Huge creatures:
James Jacobs states that the whip TRIPLES your natural reach if you attack with it; this means 30' for large whippers and 45' for huge whippers(and 10' for tiny whippers, for some reason) (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=427?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#21334)

Furthermore, as a weapon with the trip feature, we can use whips to drag and reposition (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom). (And trip, and disarm, and sunder, but you can do that with any weapon)

So, without further ado, I present two whip-wielding characters in the hope to somehow move this weapon from the realms of novelty to the realms of practical optimization.

1)Elf (Kensai) Magus


15 PB:

13 STR 16 DEX 10 CON 17 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA

Alternate racial traits: Arcane Focus(+2 racial to concentration checks to cast defensively; replaces weapon familiarity)

Traits: Threatening Defender(-1 Combat Expertise penalty), Focused Mind(+2 concentration)


1st: Cantrips, Spell Combat, Canny Defense, EWP(Whip), Weapon Focus(Whip), Combat Expertise
2nd: Spellstrike
3rd: Magus Arcana(Wand Wielder), Whip Mastery
4th: Perfect Strike, +1 INT
5th: Improved Reposition, Tactical Reposition
6th: Magus Arcana(Spell Blending(Mage Armor, Mirror Polish)), Disruptive)
7th: Fighter Training(-3), Iaijutsu, Improved Whip Mastery
8th: Improved Spell Combat, +1 INT
9th: Critical Perfection, Combat Reflexes
10th: Fighter Training(1/2)
11th: Superior Reflexes, Greater Reposition, Greater Weapon Focus(Whip)
12th: Magus Arcana(Spellbreaker, Spell Blending(Spiked Pit, Mirror Hideaway)), +1 INT
13th: Iaijutsu Focus, Teleport Tactician
14th: Greater Spell Combat
15th: Magus Arcana(Spell Blending: Illusory Wall, Bestow Curse), Pin Down
16th: Counterstrike, +1 INT
17th: Celestial Obedience(Arqueros), Improved Initiative
18th: Magus Arcana(Familiar, Maneuver Mastery: Reposition)
19th: Iaijutsu Master, Greater Whip Mastery
20th: Weapon Mastery(Whip), +1 INT

At 3rd level, with a Wand of True strike and a whip, you can safely disarm and trip opponents with a +18 bonus to the CMB check. The whip's reach will probably allow you to avoid provoking an AoO.

At 5th level, Tactical reposition allows you to reposition someone into a pit trap, or into acid/lava, or reposition them into another hazardous place.

At 7th level, you can use spell combat to disarm someone, then use the second attack with the whip to pick up a tiny(i.e. ~ medium dagger/shortsword sized) object and yoink it for yourself.

An excellent strategy to disarm something, then snatch it away!

At higher levels, you have many AoO attempts and many AoO triggers:

We get an AoO if...
Someone moves via 5-step: Pin Down
Someone charges and enters our threatened area: Arqueros
Someone moves normally inside our threatened area: Normal
Someone teleports within our threatened area: Teleport Tactician
Someone casts a spell defensively within our threatened area: Counterstrike(after the spell is cast)
Someone casts a spell within our threatened area: Normal
Someone bullrushes us: Arqueros


Reposition CMB:
1st: +20 with spell combat
3rd: +23 with mwk whip and spell combat
5th: +26 with tactical reposition, mwk whip and spell combat
10th:+40 with tactical reposition, +1 dueling whip(+4 with arcane pool) and spell combat
11th:+44 with greater reposition
18th:+57 with greater reposition, tactical reposition, +1 dueling whip(+5 with arcane pool) and spell combat
20th:+59

All this with 13 STR and medium size...

----------------------------------------------------------

2) Whip Oracle

1/2-elf (Ancient Lorekeeper, Spirit Guide) (Battle) Oracle


15 PB:
17 STR 14 DEX 12 CON 10 INT 7 WIS 14 CHA

Alternate racial traits: Ancestral Weapon(Whip)

Traits: Birthmark, Valknar Graduate(Dirty Trick)

1st: Orisons, Oracle's Curse(Tongues: 1st language), Mystery(Battle), Revelation(Maneuver Mastery: Dirty Trick), EWP(Whip), Extra Revelation(Weapon Mastery(Whip)), (WF(Whip))
2nd: Bonus Spell(Elven Arcana(0th))
3rd: Wandering Spirit(Hex), Whip Mastery
4th: Bonus Spell(Elven Arcana(1st)), Wandering Spirit(Bonus Spells), (Improved Dirty Trick), +1 STR
5th: Divine Protection, (Tongues: 2nd language)
6th: Bonus Spell(Elven Arcana(2nd))
7th: Wandering Spirit(Spirit Ability), Improved Whip Mastery
8th: Bonus Spell(Elven Arcana(3rd)), (Greater Dirty Trick), (Improved Critical(Whip)), +1 STR
9th: Performance Weapon Mastery
10th: Bonus Spell(Elven Arcana(4th)), (Tongues: Understand any language)
11th: Revelation(Maneuver Mastery: Trip), Combat Reflexes, (Improved Trip, Greater Trip)
12th: Bonus Spell(Elven Arcana(5th)), (GWF(Whip)), +1 STR
13th: Extra Revelation(Maneuver Mastery: Grapple) (Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple)
14th: Bonus Spell(Elven Arcana(6th))
15th: Wandering Spirit(Greater Spirit Ability), (Tongues: Speak any language), Greater Whip Mastery
16th: Bonus Spell(Elven Arcana(7th)), +1 STR
17th: Quicken Spell
18th: Bonus Spell(Elven Arcana(8th))
19th: Revelation(Battlefield clarity), Extra Revelation(War Sight)
20th: Final Revelation, +1 STR

At 9th level, with Serpentine Tattoos (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicTattooDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Serpentine%20Tat too), we can hit someone with a Whip(which is treated as performance weapon thanks to Performance Weapon mastery) and immediately inflict a (Greater) Dirty Trick with +22 CMB.

At 11th level, we can *hit* someone with a trip attempt with the whip, and immediately trigger a Greater Dirty trick in the same manner.

At 15th level, we can grapple with the whip via Greater Whip Mastery: Thanks to Greater Grapple, we can maintain the grapple as move action and use a standard action to cast spells.

Like the Whip magus above, a dueling (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20%28PSF G%29) whip can grant very large luck bonuses to Combat Maneuvers performed with the whip(i.e. Grapple, Trip, Disarm, Reposition, Sunder; Drag is specifically excluded).

--------------------------------------------------------------

Thoughts? Does a Whip seem to be a somewhat viable weapon of choice?

Would you play a specialized character like one of the above?

Did I miss anything that could be used for a competent whip-wielding character?

[Psyren]

Yeah it's feat intensive but if you get them all whips are viable.

If you're doing a 1-20 build you need to account for gear - where's the +6 belt of physical prowess/perfection and the tomes/wishes? Did you factor those into your numbers, and if so when did you buy/upgrade them?

I think you have better choices for Spell Blending than Illusory Wall and Bestow Curse personally. If you can get them to fail a will save there are much worse things you can do, and chances are you won't

[Kurald Galain]

Ok, so your magus is basically relying on chain-casting True Strike to get his combat maneuvers to work. However, that doesn't work in any round where you have to move, nor does it work on OAs.

Why are you prioritizing int on a weapon-based character with diminished spellcasting? And what's the point of spending a spell blend on Mirror Polish, of all things?

[grarrrg]

From a damage standpoint, the first (5 level) version of Pain Taster was pretty sweet.
It added it's Sneak-Attack-Variant damage to ALL Whip Attacks. 4 levels was a good +2d6 boost to all attacks.
It had a few other goodies as well (but...interesting...requirements).

The new 'updated' 10 level version...is just garbage.

[Red Fel]

Are you willing to consider Psionics? Because awhile back, I posted a build thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359631-Unlimited-Fireworks-Help-with-a-PF-Pyrokineticist-Build) with the idea of combining a whip-wielding Soulknife with the Pyrokineticist. I remind you that the Pyro is specifically designed around creating a whip made out of fire. Combining it with Soulknife allows you to augment your whip as you would a mind blade, up to and including changing the damage type. And the Pyro explicitly calls out the Fire Lash as being compatible with whip-related feats.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Not to mention the blade skill that allows you to turn your soul knife into any single weapon you choose.

Hello shenanigans. Psychic strike? Check.

Weapon aflame? Also check.

Improved trip? I don't see why not.

Not being hampered by a foes armor class, and having your damage NOT being neutered? Boy howdy, yeah.

Dual-wielding a soul whip and a flame lash? You'd better believe it.

[Abrasis Mindlef]

Ok, so your magus is basically relying on chain-casting True Strike to get his combat maneuvers to work. However, that doesn't work in any round where you have to move, nor does it work on OAs.

Why are you prioritizing int on a weapon-based character with diminished spellcasting? And what's the point of spending a spell blend on Mirror Polish, of all things?


Why should a Kensai Magus focus on Intelligence...?

a)He gets Intelligence to AC(maximum bonus equal to his class level; Canny Defense - Level 1)

b)He gets Intelligence to Initiative(Iaijutsu - Level 7)

c)He gets Intelligence to Critical Confirmation rolls(Critical Perfection - Level 9; Note that with Perfect Strike(level 4) and Weapon Mastery(Level 20) he can improve his favored weapons critical multiplier TWICE)

d)He gets a number of additional AoO attempts per turn equal to his Int bonus(Superior Reflexes - Level 11). As this build revolves around AoOs with a whip, at 20th level with +5 manuals/tomes for INT and DEX, and a +6 enhancement bonus item for INT and dex, he has a +8 DEX modifier(before polymorph effects) and a +11 INT modifier, resulting in 20 AoO attempts per turn.

e)He gets Int to damage vs flat-footed opponents(Iaijutsu Focus - Level 13).

f)As Magus, the size of his arcane pool is determined by his intelligence(and his class level).

g)He could choose Magus Arcanas that are related to INT, such as Arcane Accuracy.

---------------------------------------------

Concerning chain-casting True strike: At 3rd level, a wand of True strike will be a very useful investment: for 750gp, you can automatically succeed in most of your combat maneuvers for the forseeable future. This also circumvents Diminished Spellcasting and conserves your spell slots for necessary and useful day-to-day spells.

If the Magus needs to move(even though he has 15' reach normally or 30' reach if enlarged), he can either cast true strike, move, and trip/reposition the next turn; or simply move and cast a spell, or move and attack with a spellstoring whip to release a pre-cast shocking grasp...

((Whatever a Magus unable to use Spellcombat usually does - the problem is not exclusive to a Whip-using magus))


Mirror Polish is more of a Placeholder; the real point of Spell Blending at 6th is to acquire Mage Armor. Since Pathfinder has reprinted Rope trick(->Mirror Hideaway (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mirror-hideaway)) with the spell requiring a Mirror instead of Rope, a related spell seemed to be appropriate.

It is in no way critical to the build in question.
------------------------------------------------------

Concerning numbers: I've tried to assume very little concerning equipment, as loot is likely campaign-dependant.



1st: +20 with spell combat(+1 STR, +1 WF(Whip), +20 True Strike, -2 Spell combat)

3rd: +23 with mwk whip and spell combat(+1 STR, +1 WF(Whip), +2 BAB, +1 mwk, +20 True Strike, -2 Spell combat) (Assuming a mwk whip)

5th: +26 with tactical reposition, mwk whip and spell combat (+1 STR, +1 WF(Whip), +1 mwk, +3 BAB, +2 feat, +20 True Strike, -2 Spell combat)

10th:+41 with tactical reposition, +1 dueling whip(+4 with arcane pool) and spell combat(+1 STR, +1 WF, +4 enhancement, +8 luck(dueling weapon), +7 BAB, +2 feat, +20 True Strike, -2 Spell combat; Assuming a +1 dueling whip and 1 point from arcane pool)

11th:+45 with greater reposition(+1 BAB, +1 GWF(Whip) and +2 feat difference to 10th)

18th:+58 with greater reposition, tactical reposition, +1 dueling whip(+5 with arcane pool) and spell combat(+1 STR, +2 WF/GWF(Whip), +5 enhancement, +10 luck(dueling weapon), +13 BAB, +4 feats(Improved/Greater Reposition), +5 Maneuver Mastery: Reposition), +20 True Strike, -2 Spell combat) (Assuming a +1 dueling whip and 1 point from arcane pool)

20th:+60 (+2 from BAB/Maneuver Mastery compared to 18th)


As you can see, I've kept the equipment/stat requirements very low; an item buffing STR is probable; spells such as Enlarge person add +2 to CMB(and very valuable offensive reach to the whip)...

If you take the Magus Arcana Arcane Accuracy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/arcane-accuracy-su) you can improve CMB by another +11 for 1 turn
If you take the Magus Arcana Prescient Defense (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/prescient-defense-su), you can get +11 AC/Reflex vs 1 opponent for 1 turn.


Concerning DEX/INT: At 20th level, I'm assuming 33 INT(15 +2 racial +5 lvlup +5 inherent + 6 enhancement) and 28 DEX(14 +2 racial +5 inherent + 6 enhancement)

Other than that, I've made no assumptions about equipment/wealth.

------------------------------------------------------------------



Concerning psionics, Soulknife and Pyrokineticist:

A Magus can augment his whip via Arcane Pool(-> Flaming whips are easily possible); pick up spells such as River Whip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/river-whip), Whip of Spiders (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/whip-of-spiders), Whip of Centipedes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/whip-of-centipedes) and Whip of Ants (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/whip-of-ants) via Spell Blending, ignore the damage restrictions/AoO provoked via Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat) as soon as 3rd lvl, and threaten defensively via Improved Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-whip-mastery-combat)(only normal reach +5'; so 10' at medium, 15' at large, and 20' at huge).


As such, I believe the options provided by the Magus are better than a psionic character; and I do not have enough experience with PF psionics to create an equivalent build to the two presented in the OP.

I'd be happy to learn from an example.

[Snowbluff]

You should be using Sacred Geometry + Quicken on the True Strikes if you ask me.

[Kurald Galain]

Why should a Kensai Magus focus on Intelligence...?
Well, since most of those key off dexterity, it may be better to just focus on dexterity and spend a feat on Agile Maneuvers. This will also help you hitting during the turns where you can't cast True Strike for whatever reason.

The main point of critical hits is to start with an 18-20 scimitar and cast spells like Shocking Grasp, after all. Doing a crit with a low-damage whip on a maneuver check is fun, but not really worth investing a lot in.

[Abrasis Mindlef]

Well, normally I'd agree with a Dexterity Focus instead of Intelligence focus; after all, it is possible to take Agile maneuvers or Weapon finesse(for all weapon-based Combat maneuvers) to replace Strength with Dexterity in your CMB checks(as CMB checks are attack rolls).


However, the synergy between size-changing magic and the whip's extraordinary offensive reach is simply too great for me to ignore.


If a Whip Magus uses spells:

A)Enlarge Person grants +2 to CMB(+1 size, +1 from the STR increase) if I focus on INT;

B)Enlarge Person grants +0 to CMB(+1 size, -1 from the -2 size penalty to DEX) if I focus on DEX.

Each time, then size increase grants me 30' offensive reach and 15' defensive reach with the whip.


Monstrous Physique III or Undead Anatomy III, in a similar manner, apply the following modifiers to CMB when used for Huge size:

A)+5 to CMB(+2 size, +3 from the STR increase) if I focus on INT;

B):+0 to CMB(+2 size, -2 from the -4 size penalty to DEX) if I focus on DEX.

Each time, the size increase grants 45' offensive reach and 20' defensive reach with the whip.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Concerning Whips and Large/Huge creatures:
James Jacobs states that the whip TRIPLES your natural reach if you attack with it; this means 30' for large whippers and 45' for huge whippers(and 10' for tiny whippers, for some reason) (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=427?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#21334)

Unless something changed, JJ has said he's not a "rules guy" and his answers are basically just how he'd handle things in his game, so anything he says is not necessarily RAW. Which is good, because he's given some pretty cringe-worthy interpretations in the past. That triple reach thing is kinda crazy. But, if your DM accepts it, cool.

As for psionics, even if you don't end up using psionic classes, you might want to pick a psionic race just to have a power point reserve to power psionic feats.

Psionic Trip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/psionic-trip-psionic) in particular is nice, to throw foes you trip. There's also a psionic bull rush which works the opposite way; trip a foe you've pushed. But you probably don't want to invest the feats towards that.

In addition to the Soulknife option, also consider Psychic Warrior with the Interceptor Path. Lets you manifest Expansion for free (but un-augmented) by expending psionic focus, then at level 6 lets you manifest it as part of a melee attack (ie, as a free action!). The path itself gives a nice little attack and damage boost vs. any foe threatening an ally and you can expend psionic focus to disrupt a foe's attack as an immediate action with a melee attack or bull rush (I assume you can trip, since trip is an option to replace a melee attack).
Magus is still probably better, just from all the splatbook support, but it's worth mentioning.

Traits: Bred for War is a flat +1 CMB bonus. I think there's also a Serpentine weapon trait somewhere for +2 on CMB with whips and chains. Or you could use Heirloom Weapon for +2 CMB on one maneuver of your choice with that one weapon.

Feats: Fury's Fall adds Dex to trip CMB on top of Str, worth it at some point if you get some dex stat boosters, could be a +4 or so to your tripping.