Need help making a Dragon as PC

[TaliesinCaster]

Me and a friend are about to start an OP/evil campaign, just the two of us verses the world. His character is aiming for world domination and godhood, and My character is searching out vast wealth as he takes his revenge on a world that rejects him. I want to play an Umbral Dragon as either a Monk or Brawler. I've looked through the rules and honestly they don;t make a lot of sense to me. Can anyone out there help me make this character up right?

[rockdeworld]

It's hard to answer your question when the only specifics you provided are "umbral dragon" and "monk/brawler." What's confusing you and what do you want to do?

Pathfail hates people playing monsters even more than 3.5 does, so they don't provide rules for making monsters into PCs. Alternatively, Pathawesome loves people playing monsters, so they did away with the silly LA system and provided base monster stats for you to put class levels on. In either case, monsters have no LA, so you can just play a Mature Adult Umbral dragon Monk 1 as an ECL 20 character by RAW (although you might not want to).

WhamBamSam's dragon handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-%28WIP%29) provides advice for playing a dragon in 3.5. Since PF is based on 3.5, it may help you understand the rules and how to build the dragon you want.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, what is your starting level, and will our DM let you play with your dragon CR as the level (meaning most dragons have NEGATIVE LA). If you are going by CR, then you should start as the oldest dragon you can fit within your level and then add one monk level if possible. You gain 1-6 more HD than CR for your levels in dragon, so get as much as possible of those nice full save full bab levels.

[Sayt]

It's hard to answer your question when the only specifics you provided are "umbral dragon" and "monk/brawler." What's confusing you and what do you want to do?

Pathfail hates people playing monsters even more than 3.5 does, so they don't provide rules for making monsters into PCs. Alternatively, Pathawesome loves people playing monsters, so they did away with the silly LA system and provided base monster stats for you to put class levels on. In either case, monsters have no LA, so you can just play a Mature Adult Umbral dragon Monk 1 as an ECL 20 character by RAW (although you might not want to).

WhamBamSam's dragon handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-%28WIP%29) provides advice for playing a dragon in 3.5. Since PF is based on 3.5, it may help you understand the rules and how to build the dragon you want.

Uh, it's actually really easy. Your CR is your ECL. Every three levels the party would gain, reduce your ECL and get a level to make up to it, as many times as half your CR.

Basically, what level is your group starting at? A Wyrmling Umbral Dragon brawler 1 is ECL 7. A Wyrmling Umbral Dragon brawler 17 is ECL 17 with 17d10+7d12 HD, so you come out with way better BAB and more feats than a Brawler 20.

But, you don't get much dragon-y stuff.

Very Young gets you +4 Strength, and +2d12 HD at the cost of 1 brawler level, but you start at ECL9.

Young starts your Brawler 1 at ECL 11. And nets you 14 levels at Ecl20.

Juvenal starts your Brawler 1 at 12 and caps you out at Brawler 12.

V.young, Young and Juvenile each net you 2 hd per step, and 4/8/10 str and 2/4/6 con, 3/6/9 Natural AC and x2/x3/x4 breath weapon dice.

Juvenile also nets you third level Sorcerer Casting and at will vampiric touch.

[TaliesinCaster]

These are all really helpful answers. I realize I wasn't very specific in my first post. We're starting at Level 10, and the DM is open to whatever, so long as the mechanics aren't stretched too far. My biggest difficulty is in figuring level. The whole age progression thing is also throwing me off.

[Sayt]

In the bestiaries, at the beginning of the Dragon section, there are several tables, that modify the stats of a Wyrmling Dragon, given at the start of the dragon's section. Basically, you need to find the sweet spot for giving you enough Brawler/Monk and getting the Dragon-y stuff you want.

[rockdeworld]

Your CR is your ECL.
That's a really good system, and I clearly missed something if that's the rule in PF. Would you provide a link so I can look at it?

[Sayt]

Here it is on the SRD. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races)

Otherwise, you want appendix 4 in Bestiary 1, Pages 313 and 314.

[Jack_Simth]

Pathfail hates people playing monsters even more than 3.5 does, so they don't provide rules for making monsters into PCs. Alternatively, Pathawesome loves people playing monsters, so they did away with the silly LA system and provided base monster stats for you to put class levels on. In either case, monsters have no LA, so you can just play a Mature Adult Umbral dragon Monk 1 as an ECL 20 character by RAW (although you might not want to).
Umm... you're wrong. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monstersAsPCs.html)

As to the OP:
I might suggest a more run-of-the-mill dragon than the Umbral. Casting still rules, and with what passes for ECL for Paizo (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monstersAsPCs.html), and the way dragons advance (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/dragon.html#dragon), you'll ultimately (20th) end up in a better spot with something like a Brass (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/dragon.html#metallic-dragon-brass) or Brine (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/dragon.html#primal-dragon,-brine) dragon, both of which are CR 3 at Wyrmling stage, are CR 19 at Great Wyrm stage, and cast as Sorcerer-19's as Great Wyrms - meaning that you're still a full caster, through and through (although you start off as a skillmonkey at CR 3, transition into a skillful brute as a Young Dragon (CR 7 is about when this starts), and then end as a skillfull Gish - top off with one level of Sorcerer or your full arcane casting PrC of choice for 20th). The entire way, you've got more hit dice than your CR, and the hit dice are d12's with full BAB and Monk-perfect saves. Well, if the DM lets you advance by CR rather than level.

Edit: Given 10th, a quick comparison:


Type
Size
HD
Natural Armor
Breath Weapon Damage
Racial Str
Racial Dex
Racial Con
Racial Int
Racial Wis
Racial Cha
Casting


Brass (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/dragon.html#metallic-dragon-brass) (Young Adult)
Large
12d12
15
10d4 fire (avg 25)
+12
+2
+8
+4
+4
+4
Sor-5


Brine (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/dragon.html#primal-dragon,-brine) (Young Adult)
Large
12d12
15
10d6 Acid (avg 35)
+18
+0
+6
+6
+4
+4
Sor-5


Umbral (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/dragon.html#primal-dragon,-umbral) (Young)
Large
11d12
12
6d8 negative (avg 21)
+10
+2
+6
+6
+6
+6
Sor-1



All are CR 10. Brass has slightly better defences (Con, Dex), the Brine has better offence and skills (Str, Int, breath weapon). The Umbral really only wins in Wis and Cha... but as it's a 1-point difference, and only really applies to skills thanks to the severe discrepancy in casting levels, the lack of a hit die means the others still win. So about the only thing that might sway things is the assorted specials you'd be getting or the flavour:

Movement: burrow (Brass) vs. Swim (Brine) vs... no special movement for the Umbral

Immunities: Fire (Brass... comes with cold vulnerability, though) vs. Acid (Brine) vs. Cold (Umbral)

Specials:
Brass: Sleep Breath, Speak with Animals, Move Sand, Desert Wind, Endure Elements, DR 5/Magic, SR
Brine: Water Breathing, Speak with Fish, Obscurring Mist, Water Breathing for others, DR 5/Magic, SR
Umbral: Umbral Scion, Darkness, Ghost Bane
- which looks best to you?

[rockdeworld]

Thank you. Excuse my initial post.