Druid wildshape with Monk: what can I do in a grapple?

[Hiro Quester]

Okay, so I'm playing a druid, going to dip a level of Monk. Already debated that move in earlier threads this week.

I'm strongly considering taking Improved Grappe as the bonus feat. I got some good avice about that too this week in an earlier thread.

Now I'm trying to understand what a Druid/Monk in Bear or Big Cat shape can do in a grapple.

With improved grab, I make a grapple check when I hit with a claw attack. With improved grapple I avoid the AOO when making a touch attack to initiate a grapple (with a hand instead of a claw). Okay.

What happens after I make the grapple check. In big cat form I can rake. That seems well understood. What else?

My normal full attack (with pounce in Big Cat form) would be two unarmed strikes (elbow, knee, for example) as primary attacks (one at -5). And then Claw Claw Bite as secondary attacks at -5 (-2 if I take Multiattack).


Question 1:
Can these attacks be made out of order, but with the same penalties, etc? (E.g. claw, claw, bite (all -5), then US, US (-5) would for using Natural attacks (with penalties) first, then USs after to initiate grapple if the claws don't hit.

So as I understand this, I'd have two options:
(a) grapple with touch attack +grapple check. Proceed with the standard grapple sequence.
(b) grapple with a claw attack +grapple check. Proceed with the normal improved grab sequence.

Question 2:
Option (a) would have higher chance of success (vs. touch AC). But am I only able to rake if I use (b)?

Question 2a: Do I actually have a choice here? Or is there a required (or you’d be stupid to do it any other way) method here?

Imagine I do have a choice, and choose option (a).


I replace any Unarmed Strike with a touch attack (ideally the first, with highest chance of success) to grapple right? I can then:
move into opponent's square (free movement),
Pin and silence my opponent with a grapple check (takes the place of my second US attack) or choose to damage him make another attack another grapple attack or do unarmed strike damage.

That would be my two US attacks. (one touch to grapple, the second to pin or damage).

Question 3:
Can I then still Claw, Claw, Bite (and rake if Big Cat)?

3a: I expect Claw might be difficult since I have to use a paw to grapple. I can't have made a knee or elbow strike (keeping claws free; as a Monk can) to grapple, can I?
3b:Should/could I Claw Claw Bite before moving into his square?



Now Imagine I choose option (b) using Improved Grab.


A claw attack initiates the grapple. I then make a grapple check (free action), and if I succeed I pull him into my space. I then rake.

Question 4:
Between the first claw hitting, and grabing and raking, can I still make the other two attacks (claw bite)? I’m assuing this is so.

4a:Can I also make my Unarmed Strike attacks?


4:a.1 If so, can I only make them before, or only after, or either?

4.b: Can I replace my Unarmed strikes with attempts to pin and damage within a grapple initiated by a claw, on th same full atack round that initiated the grapple?



Question 5:
Can a flurry of blows have any role here, to get an extra unarmed strike?

My apologies if I 'm missing obvious rules and or misunderstand ing rules. I have never played a grappler before, and only been grappled once (ineffectively).

[Psyren]

3.5 or Pathfinder? Your answers are going to depend on this first.

[Hiro Quester]

3.5 or Pathfinder? Your answers are going to depend on this first.

3.5. Sorry. I thought that was implied by the context.
And mostly core ( with PH 1 and DMG2 and stormwrack).

[rockdeworld]

One question: is this for 3.5 or Pathfinder? If 3.5, what do you mean by Big Cat? I can't find that in the MM. The rest of my answer assumes you're using 3.5.


What happens after I make the grapple check?
This may help. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#ifYoureGrappling)

A 1:
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling. A silly RAW interpretation is that you can attack with 3 or 4 weapons, but barring that you have to pick one.

Your understanding of the grapple options is a bit skewed. They're more like this:
a. Grapple: Use the grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) rules, starting with step 2 (because you have Improved Grapple).
b. Improved Grab: Whenever you hit with a [X] attack, use the grapple rules starting with step 3, except use "normal damage" instead of UAS and the creature moves into your space instead of vice versa. I can't find Big Cat in the MM, but if for example you are a Dire Lion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direLion.htm), then [X] would be Bite.

A 2:
Incorrect. The rake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake) ability can be used any time you are grappling your opponent. It just says you get 2 extra attacks while grappling.

A 2a:
You have a choice. Any time you start the turn grappling your opponent, you can make your normal UAS/natural weapon attack, plus 2 rake attacks. However, only Improved Grab allows you to use your natural weapon for damage when you succeed (Grappling specifies you deal unarmed strike damage, Improved Grab just says "normal damage", which presumably means the natural weapon you started the grab with).

If you choose option a, then it would look like this (assuming you're still a Dire Lion):
Round 1: Make a touch attack (and succeed). Make an opposed grapple check (and succeed). Deal unarmed strike damage. Move into target's space. You are now grappling. Perform 2 rake attacks. If you are full-attacking and have attacks left over you can perform another attack. Otherwise:
Round 2: Choose to attack your opponent. Choose one of your weapons to attack with (UAS, Claw, Bite), attack with it, then also attack with 2 rake attacks.*

Yes you can replace any UAS with a touch attack to grapple. Yes, the attack bonus of the UAS applies to the touch attack. Yes, on success you then move into their space. On your next attack action, you can pin (and then silence), or make another attack, or make a grapple check to deal UAS damage. There's no option to re-grapple the same person or to grapple someone else (until after you pin and let them go, or escape).

Yes, that would be 2 UAS attacks (one touch to grapple, the second to pin or damage).

A 3:
No, because if you are grappling you can't attack with 2 different weapons (see A 1). However, you can make any of your attacks before starting a grapple, and then an attack with a single "weapon" (UAS/claw/bite) after starting the grapple, because the attacks made before you started the grapple weren't made "while grappling". You can also full attack with a single weapon while grappling.

A 3a:
Yes you absolutely can. Monk UAS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike) uses any part of their body.

A 3b:
You could.

If you chose option b, then it would look like this (assuming you're still a Dire Lion):
Round 1: Hit with your bite attack. Make an opposed grapple check (and succeed). Deal bite damage. The target moves into your space. You are now grappling. Perform 2 rake attacks. If you are full-attacking and have attacks left over you can perform another attack. Otherwise:
Round 2: Choose to attack your opponent. Choose one of your weapons to attack with (UAS, Claw, Bite), attack with it, then also attack with 2 rake attacks.*

A 4:
No, the grab is made immediately after the attack that started it.

A 4a:
Same as above.

A 4b:
Yes, if they're the only weapon you attack with after starting the grapple (aside from rake).

A 5:
Yes to both. You can flurry before and during a grapple.


*These are just examples, and round 2 you could do something different.

[eggynack]

If 3.5, what do you mean by Big Cat? I can't find that in the MM. The rest of my answer assumes you're using 3.5.

Big cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_cat) is a non-game term that refers to larger felines like lions and tigers, as opposed to smaller felines like house cats. In a gaming context, these creatures tend to have pounce, a pile of attacks to support it, andsome grappling ability (though often less than forms dedicated to the role over straight damage).

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks, Rock. That is helpful.

Imagine I'm in Tiger form. A tiger can initiate a grapple if any of its natural attacks hit.

So it looks like my best (most damaging) option is to make like a full attack with Flurry of blows to make two Unarmed strikes as primary attacks at Full attack bonus and then my third (still primary) US (at -5), then attack with Natural Weapons as secondary attacks (at -5), Bite(damage) Claw(if I hit I try to grapple), Claw (again try to grapple if the first claw misses).

Let's assume I hit with the first claw, as a huge 29 STR Tiger (thanks to enlarge person and bull's strength), attacking an AC14 caster. I then make a grapple check (succeed). We are now grappling and I do damage as if with an unarmed strike. I then I pull him into my square and rake.

I still have one remaining (claw) attack.Grapple says this of things you can do in a grapple:


Attack Your Opponent
Attack Your Opponent
You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
...
Pin Your Opponent
You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack)...


So in place of that remaining attack with natural weapons at -4. I could pin (using my much higher grapple check) and silence him.


For subsequent rounds, Improved Grab says this:

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).


So in subsequent rounds I can do damage automatically whenever I win a grapple check. If that was a good roll, I could make an attempt to damage and automatically do that each time.

And I'd automatically do that damage also on my opponent's turn when he tries to break out of the grapple and fails.

I'm supposing that on my turn I can choose to damage him further, too, by making at least one more attack with a grapple check (doing automatic damage, plus an unarmed strike's worth).

Unless....

where your answer A3 seems not the only interpretation, rockdeworld.

The use of "such attacks" (plural) when discussing the -4 penalty could imply that if you have a light weapon you only get one attack. But if you use unarmed strikes, you can make more attacks. then I could get another few unarmed strikes, each one made as a grapple check attempt to damage, each doing regular unarmed strike damage (which is higher, because I'm a huge animal).

Edit: oh. And could I also get one claw attack, in addition to UASs, since UAS is not a different weapon, i.e elbow, elbow, elbow, claw, while maintains the grapple.

[Urpriest]

Thanks, Rock. That is helpful.

Imagine I'm in Tiger form. A tiger can initiate a grapple if any of its natural attacks hit.

So it looks like my best (most damaging) option is to make like a full attack with Flurry of blows to make two Unarmed strikes as primary attacks at Full attack bonus and then my third (still primary) US (at -5), then attack with Natural Weapons as secondary attacks (at -5), Bite(damage) Claw(if I hit I try to grapple), Claw (again try to grapple if the first claw misses).

One point of ambiguity here: Flurry of Blows says


When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham).

Claw and Bite are not unarmed strikes, nor are they special monk weapons. Some people interpret this to mean that you cannot use your extra Flurry of Blows attacks to Claw or Bite, but some think it means that if you use Flurry of Blows then you cannot Claw or Bite in the same round. Check which interpretation your DM uses.



Let's assume I hit with the first claw, as a huge 29 STR Tiger (thanks to enlarge person and bull's strength), attacking an AC14 caster. I then make a grapple check (succeed). We are now grappling and I do damage as if with an unarmed strike.

No, since you used Improved Grab you do not deal damage as if with an unarmed strike. If you do not have the Constrict ability you do no extra damage from succeeding on this grapple check, but you will deal damage equal to your Bite damage (not unarmed strike) on subsequent grapple checks to deal damage.


I then I pull him into my square and rake.

Note here that you can do this because you have the Pounce ability. If you did not have Pounce, you would have to have started the round grappling your opponent in order to use Rake.


I still have one remaining (claw) attack.Grapple says this of things you can do in a grapple:


So in place of that remaining attack with natural weapons at -4. I could pin (using my much higher grapple check) and silence him.

That probably refers to attacks from BAB, not attacks in general. In fact, it's unclear whether having natural weapons gives you more attacks while in a grapple, and the default answer is probably no. There is some legitimate ambiguity, but the RAW appears to be that the things you can do in a grapple that substitute for attacks only relate to BAB-based attacks, as indicated here:


Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

This is definitely something to talk with your DM about, however, since it's a little weird for monsters to be limited in this fashion. (Then again, I've crunched the numbers, and dedicated Constrict-users generally deal only a little less damage in a grapple than they would with a multi-natural weapon full attack.)

Anyway, if the RAW-ish interpretation is being used, then you would probably want to make your natural attacks before your third UAS, so that you have that attack left over to pin your opponent. RAW, you have to do this if you have the Multiattack feat, since RAW attacks are always performed from highest attack bonus to lowest.



For subsequent rounds, Improved Grab says this:


So in subsequent rounds I can do damage automatically whenever I win a grapple check. If that was a good roll, I could make an attempt to damage and automatically do that each time.

And I'd automatically do that damage also on my opponent's turn when he tries to break out of the grapple and fails.

I'm supposing that on my turn I can choose to damage him further, too, by making at least one more attack with a grapple check (doing automatic damage, plus an unarmed strike's worth).

Rules Compendium clarifies things somewhat here. You don't deal the extra damage on every successful grapple check, rather, you only deal it on grapple attempts to deal damage made on your turn.



Unless....

where your answer A3 seems not the only interpretation, rockdeworld.

The use of "such attacks" (plural) when discussing the -4 penalty could imply that if you have a light weapon you only get one attack. But if you use unarmed strikes, you can make more attacks. then I could get another few unarmed strikes, each one made as a grapple check attempt to damage, each doing regular unarmed strike damage (which is higher, because I'm a huge animal).

Edit: oh. And could I also get one claw attack, in addition to UASs, since UAS is not a different weapon, i.e elbow, elbow, elbow, claw, while maintains the grapple.

I would interpret "can't attack with two weapons" as "can't use the Two Weapon Fighting special attack", not "can't have two of your attacks be with two different weapons". But the RAW is ambiguous. That said, Rules Compendium does state that a creature can only attack with one of its natural weapons while grappling, so since UAS and Claw are both natural weapons you must choose one or the other. It's also unclear whether you can use Flurry of Blows while in a grapple, or whether, even if you can, it gives you an extra attack.

In general, you're going to be better off dealing damage with a grapple check rather than attacking with a natural weapon/unarmed strike, unless you've got extra effects that are triggered by attacking, or an attack that deals a lot more damage than your Claw does.

Regardless, you still get your Rakes at the end of the round.

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks, Urpriest. That also clarifies a lot.

I'll have to run through all this wil my DM, obviously.

I'll also need to borrow a rules compendium and study that.

[Bronk]

Let's assume I hit with the first claw, as a huge 29 STR Tiger (thanks to enlarge person and bull's strength), attacking an AC14 caster. I then make a grapple check (succeed). We are now grappling and I do damage as if with an unarmed strike. I then I pull him into my square and rake.



You might want to check this out with your DM too... RAW, that spell combo won't get your tiger form either that big or that strong. Mainly its because size altering magics don't stack (medium human to large human doesn't stack with medium human to large tiger), but also because the enlarge person spell only grants +2 to strength instead of what you might be expecting from the size category chart.

[Svata]

You might want to check this out with your DM too... RAW, that spell combo won't get your tiger form either that big or that strong. Mainly its because size altering magics don't stack (medium human to large human doesn't stack with medium human to large tiger), but also because the enlarge person spell only grants +2 to strength instead of what you might be expecting from the size category chart.

Actually, as wildshape is based on Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialabilities.htm#alternateForm), you could use Enlarge Person on the druid while they're wildshaped, as they explicitly retain their original type (humanoid, in this case).

[eggynack]

Actually, as wildshape is based on Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialabilities.htm#alternateForm), you could use Enlarge Person on the druid while they're wildshaped, as they explicitly retain their original type (humanoid, in this case).
No, the issue is one of size altering magics rather than one of type. Enlarge doesn't stack with any magical effects that increase size, and wild shape is one of those.

[Hiro Quester]

No, the issue is one of size altering magics rather than one of type. Enlarge doesn't stack with any magical effects that increase size, and wild shape is one of those.

Oh wow. You're right. It's right there in the enlarge person description.


Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack

And wildshape is a magical (Su) effect that changes size.

This needs to be better understood. Because it looks like a common recommendation of many druid guides to buy your party mage a wand of enlarge person: "Why not be a bigger bear?"

I have seen the recommendation of enlarge person, ever since the rule change that alter form doesn't change your type, so a druid can no longer have animal growth on himself and animal companion.

Bother. I just bought a wand of enlarge person, too.

Thanks for clarifying, eggynack!

[Urpriest]

Oh wow. You're right. It's right there in the enlarge person description.



And wildshape is a magical (Su) effect that changes size.

This needs to be better understood. Because it looks like a common recommendation of many druid guides to buy your party mage a wand of enlarge person: "Why not be a bigger bear?"

I have seen the recommendation of enlarge person, ever since the rule change that alter form doesn't change your type, so a druid can no longer have animal growth on himself and animal companion.

Bother. I just bought a wand of enlarge person, too.

Thanks for clarifying, eggynack!

The argument on the other side is that Wild Shape isn't a magical effect that changes your size, it's a magical effect that changes your form, but still leaves you at the default size of your form. Anyway, it's another "ask your DM" thing. Regardless, you still only get +2 Str from Enlarge Person, not +6 or whatever you're assuming gets you to Str 29.

[Hiro Quester]

The argument on the other side is that Wild Shape isn't a magical effect that changes your size, it's a magical effect that changes your form, but still leaves you at the default size of your form. Anyway, it's another "ask your DM" thing. Regardless, you still only get +2 Str from Enlarge Person, not +6 or whatever you're assuming gets you to Str 29.

I was assuming a "bear's strength" as well. But the major advantage of gaining a size isn't the strength, but the +4 to grapple check from gaining a size.

And for an animal with a monk level, gaining a larger damage die on all attacks. A monk with natural weapons can have many attacks; a few unarmed strikes and also all your natural weapons as secondary attacks. So with a BAB of 6 you can have five attacks.

The argument against that interpretation is that the Alter Form description includes this:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.

That would lend itself to interpreting it as a magical effect that changes your size. But I'll run this by the DM.

However, strictly RAW, Enlarge person says it doesn't stack with effects that increase your size. So you could change into a smaller or equivalent sized creature, and then Enlarge person would work.

So a medium person becomes a medium leopard. No change in size has happened, so they could use EP to become a Large Leopard.

[Hiro Quester]

In fact, it's unclear whether having natural weapons gives you more attacks while in a grapple, and the default answer is probably no. There is some legitimate ambiguity, but the RAW appears to be that the things you can do in a grapple that substitute for attacks only relate to BAB-based attacks, as indicated here:


Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

This is definitely something to talk with your DM about, however, since it's a little weird for monsters to be limited in this fashion.

I have found the rule that explains this better. In Skip William's "Rules of the Game: All about Grappling (Part Three)" (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a) he says this about the "Attack Another" option when grappling:


Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can use all of them while grappling. In many cases, though, you're better off making an opposed grapple check to damage your opponent rather than making an attack with a natural weapon (see the section on damaging your opponent for details).

However, that reference to "Damaging your opponent" contains corrected text. After the piece (similar to the PH text) about doing unarmed strike damage with a Damage your opponent grapple check, and about Monks doing better UAS damage, he says:


If a creature has natural weaponry, it deals lethal natural weapon damage with a successful opposed grapple check (its natural weapons are just like unarmed strikes). A creature with natural weaponry can choose to deal nonlethal damage in a grapple by taking a -4 penalty. Even if a creature has natural weaponry, it doesn’t use those natural weapons as part of this action. It must use the “Attack Your Opponent” action (described above) to do so.

So you can substitute an attack with a natural weapon in a grapple for a "Damage your Opponent" by making a successful grapple check. But now you don't do natural weapon damage, but UAS damage.

Williams confirms this in Part Four (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a) though:


Monsters in a grapple may use their natural weapons, but only by using the “Attack Your Opponent” option (which applies a –4 penalty on the attack roll). When using the “Damage Your Opponent” option, the creature deals unarmed strike damage appropriate to its size.

This seems to mean that you can use your natural weapons attacks, and have two choices for them: Attack with each Natural Weapon (at -4) and do NW damage, or "damage your opponent" but do UAS damage (with a grapple check) instead of an UAS attack.

For most creatures this UAS damage is weaker. So you have a choice of lower chance to hit with better damage, or better chance to hit (grapple check) but weaker damage.

However a wildshaped druid with a monk level gets the best of both of these, since a monk's UAS damage is close to (sometimes better than) most animals' Natural Weapon damage. So substituting an animal's natural weapon attack for a "Damage your Opponent" unarmed strike (using the grapple check instead of attack bonus -4) is a way better option. Easier attack and high damage.


This seems to mean that a Druid in wildshape with one level of Monk (e.g. as a dire lion) in a grapple can make as many unarmed strike "damage your opponent" attacks as their BAB allows, and also make an attack with each natural weapon (Bite Claw Claw).

And they could substitute UAS "damage your opponent" strikes for any NW attack; an advantage if your bite does d4 but UAS does d8 damage.

[Hiro Quester]

This seems to mean that you can use your natural weapons attacks, and have two choices for them: Attack with each Natural Weapon (at -4) and do NW damage, or "damage your opponent" but do UAS damage (with a grapple check) instead of an UAS attack.

For most creatures this UAS damage is weaker. So you have a choice of lower chance to hit with better damage, or better chance to hit (grapple check) but weaker damage.

However a wildshaped druid with a monk level gets the best of both of these, since a monk's UAS damage is close to (sometimes better than) most animals' Natural Weapon damage. So substituting an animal's natural weapon attack for a "Damage your Opponent" unarmed strike (using the grapple check instead of attack bonus -4) is a way better option. Easier attack and high damage.


This seems to mean that a Druid in wildshape with one level of Monk (e.g. as a dire lion) in a grapple can make as many unarmed strike "damage your opponent" attacks as their BAB allows, and also make an attack with each natural weapon (Bite Claw Claw).

And they could substitute UAS "damage your opponent" strikes for any NW attack; an advantage if your bite does d4 but UAS does d8 damage.

Correction: You only get as many "Damage your opponent" checks as your BAB allows, as Urpriest suggested might be the case. Natural weapons can't be used as attempts to "damage your opponent".

From Part four (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a), on "Monsters and Grappling":


Monsters in a grapple may use their natural weapons, but only by using the “Attack Your Opponent” option (which applies a –4 penalty on the attack roll). When using the “Damage Your Opponent” option, the creature deals unarmed strike damage appropriate to its size (see Part 2 of this column)

Some options available while grappling (such as “Damage Your Opponent” and “Pin Your Opponent”) state that they may be used in place of an attack. The monster gets as many “attacks” in a full attack action as it would get if it were attacking with a weapon, based on its base attack bonus: +1 to +5, one attack; +6 to +10, two attacks; +11 to +15, three attacks, and +16 and up, four attacks. Each one after the first would suffer a cumulative –5 penalty on the roll (just like a character with a high BAB making multiple weapon attacks).

For example, a dire tiger (BAB +12) grappling a PC would be allowed three separate attempts to damage its opponent, escape from the grapple, or pin its opponent; the second would take a –5 penalty on the grapple check, while the third would take a –10 penalty.


So you do get all Natural Weapons attacks in a grapple, but only as "attack your opponent" (at -4). And when combined with "damage your opponent" attacks (or pins), the Natural Weapon attacks would be secondary attacks at a further -5 (or -2 with Multiattack). (Though rake is treated separately.)

You can only make damage, pin, escape attempts, as many times as your BAB allows attacks.

[Urpriest]

This seems to mean that you can use your natural weapons attacks, and have two choices for them: Attack with each Natural Weapon (at -4) and do NW damage, or "damage your opponent" but do UAS damage (with a grapple check) instead of an UAS attack.


Note that Skip is talking about the default. Improved Grab changes this, making it so that you deal NW damage with Damage Your Opponent rather than UAS damage.

[Hiro Quester]

Note that Skip is talking about the default. Improved Grab changes this, making it so that you deal NW damage with Damage Your Opponent rather than UAS damage.

Oh. Right. There are a lot of rules in a lot of different places to bring together here.


If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

Does that mean that it does the same as the initial attack in addition to the Unarmed Strike damage you could do using a grapple check to "Damage your Opponent"? I suspect not.

But if not, (this is the damage you automatically do each round you make a successful grapple check), can you choose not to take the automatic damage (e.g. if it was a low roll) and roll for unarmed strike damage instead? (An animal with a level in Monk will often do as good, if not better, US damage).

[Urpriest]

Oh. Right. There are a lot of rules in a lot of different places to bring together here.



Does that mean that it does the same as the initial attack in addition to the Unarmed Strike damage you could do using a grapple check to "Damage your Opponent"? I suspect not.

But if not, (this is the damage you automatically do each round you make a successful grapple check), can you choose not to take the automatic damage (e.g. if it was a low roll) and roll for unarmed strike damage instead? (An animal with a level in Monk will often do as good, if not better, US damage).

Based on that wording alone it would seem you would deal both, but the Rules Compendium clarifies that you only deal NW damage.

You can't choose UAS damage if you've already rolled NW damage (just to make sure, when it says "the damage indicated for the attack" it doesn't mean the damage you dealt when you first established the hold, it means the damage the attack normally deals, you still roll it). That said, I don't think any sensible DM would ban you from choosing to deal your Monk damage instead, provided you made the choice before rolling. You're in a grapple, so you should be able to do all the things you would normally do in a grapple.