Spheres of Power

[Ssalarn]

Has anyone else seen this (http://shop.d20pfsrd.com/products/spheres-of-power)? One of my playtesters pointed out that an as-yet-unreleased product I'm working on for DSP had some similarities to this and I should check it out. I did, and it's amazing. I absolutely love it; it's like spellcasting done right, with Vancian thrown out the window in favor of a point based system with scaling at-will options, thematics enforced but not detrimentally so, very well balanced, and just generally cool.

The fact that the very first class they introduce, the Armorist, is basically Erza Scarlet from Fairy Tail just locks this in as being one of the coolest 3pp products I've seen since Ultimate Psionics.

[Fallenreality]

To repeat what I said in the Akashic thread:


Looks interesting. I always like good 3rd party, especially 3rd party that adds a ton of classes.

I usually only go back to core Paizo stuff for Bard, Alchemist, and Magus nowadays. Possibly Investigator as well.

To add on that, if it's a solid replacement for Vancian, that makes me even more willing to check it out.

[Ssalarn]

To repeat what I said in the Akashic thread:



To add on that, if it's a solid replacement for Vancian, that makes me even more willing to check it out.

It's ridiculously good. It's much better balanced than Vancian casting, uses a point-based mechanic that should feel comfortable and familiar to people who like psionics or mana casting, and instead of cantrips you get scaling at-will abilities. An example of one of the scaling at-wills would be the Life sphere's Invigorate ability, that lets you give an ally your level in temp hp.

The way it works is that you've got spheres like Life, Conjuration, Destruction, Darkness, Light, Illusion, Mind, Nature, etc.

Full casters get 1 magic talent per level, which can either be used to buy a new sphere and its base ability, or purchase additional talents from a sphere you've already gained access to. 2/3 casters, like the Bard or Inquisitor get 15 points over the course of 20 levels, and 1/2 casters get 10. Since spheres use a completely new system all together, they avoid almost all of the issues inherent to the legacy Vancian casters; you're generally going to see Tier 1 level power nixed completely, Tier 2 much more limited, and a lot of stuff falling solidly into Tier 3.

In addition to the system being set up so you can automatically use it with any Vancian casting class, there's also 12 new base classes:

The Armorist - Full BAB, 1/2 caster progression equivalent. Can create special bonded weapons and armor with preset enchantments and swap between them in combat. Erza Scarlet from Fairy Tail.

The Elementalist - 3/4 BAB, 2/3 caster equivalent. Gets Destruction for free with boosted power, mixes elemental spells and abilities with martial combat. Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

The Eliciter - 3/4 BAB, 2/3 caster equivalent. Messes with peoples emotions in various ways. Kind of like the Mesmerist from the Occult Adventures playtest.

The Fey Adept - 1/2 BAB, full caster equivalent. Specializes in shadow and nature themed abilities. Think the Leanansidhe from Dresden Files.

The Hedgewitch - 3/4 BAB, 2/3 caster equivalent. Does a good job of emulating the various witch concepts out there with Casting Traditions that provide a set of thematic abilities.

The Incanter - 1/2 BAB, full caster equivalent. This basically your build-a-caster. In addition to full casting progression, you get a set of points at character creation that you can spend on things like specializing in a particular sphere, gaining channel energy, gaining a sorcerer bloodline (sans spells and arcana), or picking up bonus feats. Really well executed for a grab-bag class.

The Mageknight - Full BAB, 1/2 caster equivalent. This is your custom built Ranger, Paladin, or Bloodrager equivalent. Gains resistance to magical harm, Arcane Strike using level as caster level, and a selection of other abilities. This is a little light on its own identity, but you can build a paladin equivalent of any alignment and combine the Life Sphere with Destruction for a knight of a vengeful deity, or Darkness with Illusion for a warrior of Mask, god of thieves, or whatever else you really want to do. Picks their casting stat from the 3 mental stats at 1st level.

The Shifter - 3/4 BAB, 2/3 caster equivalent. You turn yourself and/or your allies into nature-themed natural attacking murder beasts.

The Soul Weaver - 1/2 BAB, full caster equivalent. Dichotomous caster who can be healer, necromancer, or both. Gains a Blight/Blessing class feature that determines where your class abilities fall on the life/death spectrum. Super cool.

The Symbiat - 3/4 BAB, 2/3 caster equivalent. Members of this class have a psionic aberration pulled from the Far Realms and fused to their soul, giving them facility with the Mind sphere and aberrant qualities. Think of the Daelkyr half-bloods from Eberron.

The Thaumaturge - 3/4 BAB, full caster equivalent. It's like a cross between a warlock and an oracle. Kind of like an Occultist from the Occult Adventures playtest without the implements.

With this, Ultimate Psionics, Path of War, and Akashic Mysteries, I may not be looking at the class section of the Paizo books for a long time. The Armorist is basically your magical Fighter, Mageknight covers all the other arcane/divine gish concepts, Incanter can be a Wizard, Cloistered Priest, or Mystic Theurge right from level one, and the other classes cover pretty much any other concept I can't find in my DSP books. I'm for real hooked.

[Renen]

Ahem... how does one look at said material? Is it out already? Or do I have to contact Asmodeus with some virgins ready for sacrifice?

[Ssalarn]

Ahem... how does one look at said material? Is it out already? Or do I have to contact Asmodeus with some virgins ready for sacrifice?

I bought the .pdf over at Paizo. It was a smidge on the pricey side for a .pdf ($19.99) but totally worth it. There's a sample .pdf you can download for free to check the system out. It's also for sale on d20pfsrd (linked in OP), and it looks like it has all the standard OGL verbage, so I'd imagine that as soon as someone gets around to transcribing everything it should be available there (sans art and everything, which is very good quality and worth the purchase).

Also, just noticed that if you buy the .pdf at d20pfsrd it's showing listed at only $14.99... But they don't have the free preview offered over at Paizo.

[Fallenreality]

With what you've described there, I'll still look at basic Paizo stuff for two things. Bards and Alchemists.

Shifter seems like it can replace the Mr. Hyde alchemist build decently, but nothing comes close to the bombs.

Bard, mainly because there doesn't seem to be a good skillmonkeyish support class which is what bards fill rather nicely for me.

[Ssalarn]

With what you've described there, I'll still look at basic Paizo stuff for two things. Bards and Alchemists.

Shifter seems like it can replace the Mr. Hyde alchemist build decently, but nothing comes close to the bombs.

Bard, mainly because there doesn't seem to be a good skillmonkeyish support class which is what bards fill rather nicely for me.

Edit:
Nevermind, they were just slow to send me the download link.

The Eliciter has a pretty expansive skill list and can do some buffing/debuffing that'd let him step into the Bard role, but it looks he's CHA-based with only 4+Int skills/level, so I don't know that he's going to quite be able to do skill-monkey as well as a bard. He does get fairly substantial bonuses to the social skills though (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive) and eventually gets the ability to always take 10 with those skills even if he normally couldn't and 1/day take 20 without increasing the time required, so he should be on par or better as party face. He's just not going to have the big bonuses to Knowledge skills or quite as many ranks to spend.

Alchemist and his bombs are pretty sweet; the closest thing I've seen in Spheres to an equivalent ability would be the Destructive Blast ability of the Destruction sphere: it gives at-will single target blasting dealing 1d6 +1d6 at 3rd and every two levels thereafter, or you can spend a spell point to make it 1d6/level. You don't get the area of the bombs or the fast bomb/twf tricks, though, so Alchemist still is pretty solidly protected in his niche.

[Fallenreality]

Not just the bombs, the Alchemy mechanics make for a rather entertaining T3 character to roleplay as.

[PsyBomb]

The mere fact that you referenced the Dresden Files in your description makes me want to take a look at this... sounds interesting in the extreme.

[Fallenreality]

Looking through the PDF now. It's actually really cool.

Edit:
There's actually an Archetype in there to convert Bards to sphere magic. :D

Also Paladin, Ranger, Wizard, Sorcerer, and Cleric!

But they can't fill the Alchemist shaped hole in my heart.

[Ssalarn]

Looking through the PDF now. It's actually really cool.

Right? This was one where I thought the art and premise were cool, and I saw a bunch of the Paizo posters who also frequent the Akashic Mysteries thread talking it up, so I had to check it out. I was not disappointed.

[Fallenreality]

The Alteration sphere is impressive. I love new ways to play shapeshifters.

Edit:
I agree about the art btw. Very good quality. Almost makes me want to get a hardcover copy. Other than the fact that all my Pathfinder stuff is done online >.<

Edit Two Electric Boogaloo:
Is it just me or does the casting system feel closer to the Mutants and Masters power system than regular DnD spellcasting? You have the base effect that is very broad, which you can then modify to be even more powerful. Just an observation I made when looking at the creation sphere.

Edit Three, Edit Hard With a Vengeance:
The Fey Adept class is beautiful and makes this worth getting for me by itself.

[Vhaidara]

I picked this up. Ssalarn, I'm hoping this didn't just eat my akashic money. But it is totally worth it. I love this casting system

[Fallenreality]

This actually works really well with Akashic. Both are very good T3 version of standard casting.

In terms of using this with initiators, I think this works amazingly. as this makes mundanes and casters pretty much equal in that regard.

I would be careful using this with psionics however. Many of the psionic classes such as dread, soulknife, and marksman have very fun base features that work well together with a setting using this form of casting. But anything higher than 6th level manifesting gets into the problem of making T1 a thing again.

All in all, I would 100% use this with Akashic and Path of War stuff. In terms of using it with Psionics, I would probably avoid Psions entirely. Vitalist could still be used as it's manifesting is 9th level but limited, and it has very good base features to make for a fun character. I don't have enough experience with Tactician to say anything about it. I would say that using Alchemist with this system isn't too bad, as once again the Alchemist receives limited casting and very fun base features. The pdf itself has archetypes for the core classes which removes my Bard problem entirely.

I love how well this brings casters down to T3/low T2 as that is where I usually like to build my characters. Incanter and Mageknight alone can cover a lot of broader topics, with my favorite class being the Fey Adept just due to how awesome it makes the illusionist archetype.

[Renen]

Hm... i might consider buy it it, though so far i've made do with the fact that most everything PF related is free.
Any info on if this will eventually be available on the SRD?

[Vhaidara]

Hm... i might consider buy it it, though so far i've made do with the fact that most everything PF related is free.
Any info on if this will eventually be available on the SRD?

It will be, but it is going to be a while. The PDF is 168 pages long. Maybe 20-30 of that is art, so about 150-140 pages just of new mechanics (it is almost completely crunch). For perspective, that's as long as Path of War, which is significantly more descriptive. It also has 8 more classes than PoW did.

[Fallenreality]

Yeah, it will probably be a while. As Keledrath said, it's a long PDF and a lot of that is crunch. If you were going to pick up anything for Pathfinder, outside of DSP or Radiance House stuff but most of that is on the SRD, this will probably give you the most content for your money. There is a lot of new content, and all of it is well made content. It's still a work in progress as well.

There are two unreleased chapters for magic items and sample worlds using the system inside it. I assume that the latter will contain a good bit of the fluff for the system.

According to the Kickstarter, the last two chapters will be added in by February

If you want a tiny bit more details on the system, here is a video from the people who made the system going over some of the stuff you can do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAQlm3vjpSY

Edit:
So after reading through all of this I have a ton of new characters I want to try. Would anyone be up for a PbP, or dare I say it a a roll20 game once in a while to do one shots?

Edit 2, the Editing:
Involve Ssalarn's description of Hedgewitch, it's actually a bit more than that. Hedgewitch is your arcane trickster replacement, your magus replacement. Hedgewitch can also cover the witch of course, and it has a spec that is semi-alchemist like. Gaining a minor form of a mutagen as well as poisons and alchemist discoveries. It still doesn't replace the feel of a bomber alchemist however.

There are 4 classes contained in the book that together can make pretty much any general concept. Thaumaturge, Hedgewitch, Mageknight, and Incanter.

The other 7 classes can cover more specific types of magic, such as illusionists, blasters, necromancers, healers, etc.

[Vhaidara]

Recruiting for a PbP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392117-Pathfinder-Spheres-of-Power-game&p=18637661#post18637661) using SoP, especially looking for a GM

[Vhaidara]

Also, Hedgewitch can be any of: Wizard (Academia), Oracle/Witch (Black), Bard (Charlatanism), Magus (Combat), Paladin/Antipaladin (Covenant), Druid (Green), or Alchemist (Herbology).

And then you have the Spiritualist option, which lets you spend a standard action (swift at 9) 3+1/2 level/day to gain magical talents or combat feats (start at one, 2 at 5, 3 at 13). Gaining multiples uses multiple uses (so getting 3 feats consumes 3 uses).

[Ssalarn]

I picked this up. Ssalarn, I'm hoping this didn't just eat my akashic money. But it is totally worth it. I love this casting system

I'm going to have send Drop Dead Studios my bill for marketing services :P

I think the system actually clicks really well with Akashic; it gives you a lot of fun flavorful options that all fall in the Tier 3 range, and I've actually been looking at a couple different builds combining the systems.

***Edit***

Gonna maybe try and get in on that game with you guys. I kinda want to play an Armorist, maybe dipping some Akashic (if that's okay) for Horselord’s Greaves and Armory of the Conqueror for cool mounted combat options :D

[Fallenreality]

The Akashic stuff and Armorist actually works fairly well together flavor wise...

It's not like we're going to tell the guy who's making the awesome Akashic stuff that he can't playtest it :P

[stack]

Aww, not in a position to buy it. I would based solely on Ssalarn's reccomendation though. He's already made me want cerulean seas.

Really like the style of the cover art on this one too.

[Mehangel]

I am slightly disappointed that the pdf doesnt include archetypes for the Magus... Yes, I know that one could easily use the Mage-Knight or homebrew something, but still.

[Vhaidara]

I am slightly disappointed that the pdf doesnt include archetypes for the Magus... Yes, I know that one could easily use the Mage-Knight or homebrew something, but still.

Actually, the Combat Hedgewitch gets Magus Arcana.

Also, Spellstrike really doesn't work as well with this system, since you would just grab Destruction and get (+1/2 level)d6 on EVERY attack, with the ability to spend a spell point for (level)d6.

[Fallenreality]

Aww, not in a position to buy it. I would based solely on Ssalarn's reccomendation though. He's already made me want cerulean seas.

Really like the style of the cover art on this one too.

It's worth it when you get the chance. Ssalarn's recommendation worked pretty well for getting me to buy it as well. I've actually been looking for a casting system like this.

[Turion]

Purchased, and loving it. Next time I run a game I'm seriously considering doing away with all Paizo base classes (with the possible exception of Alchemist and Inquisitor) and sticking with this, Radiant House, and DSP material.

So far this has everything I wanted in a magic system, and as far as I can tell is exceptionally well balanced. I think I'm in love with the Hedge-Witch :smallredface:

[meemaas]

Purchased, and loving it. Next time I run a game I'm seriously considering doing away with all Paizo base classes (with the possible exception of Alchemist and Inquisitor) and sticking with this, Radiant House, and DSP material.

So far this has everything I wanted in a magic system, and as far as I can tell is exceptionally well balanced. I think I'm in love with the Hedge-Witch :smallredface:

You ought to pick up the game Kelderath is looking for to let us all try it out lol.

I picked up the pdf too after browsing the sample I found. It definitely looks very interesting and I love that it supports never truly running out of options.

[Turion]

You ought to pick up the game Kelderath is looking for to let us all try it out lol.


Hah. If I wasn't about to start classes next week... as is, I've even had to cancel my IRL group until my schedule evens out. :smallfrown:

One thing I did notice is that the Advanced Talents are kinda all over the map, power-wise. I mean, on the one hand you've got Commander (War talent), which requires CL10 and gives a small boost to checks in an optional subsystem (since when has PF had mass-combat rules?), and on the other hand you've got Create Demiplane (Warp talent), which... well, it's Genesis, with explicit Time trait manipulation. At CL 15. (To be fair, it does require two spheres and two talents, but still.)

[Vhaidara]

Hah. If I wasn't about to start classes next week... as is, I've even had to cancel my IRL group until my schedule evens out. :smallfrown:

One thing I did notice is that the Advanced Talents are kinda all over the map, power-wise. I mean, on the one hand you've got Commander (War talent), which requires CL10 and gives a small boost to checks in an optional subsystem (since when has PF had mass-combat rules?), and on the other hand you've got Create Demiplane (Warp talent), which... well, it's Genesis, with explicit Time trait manipulation. At CL 15. (To be fair, it does require two spheres and two talents, but still.)

To be fair, it's Time Trait manipulation limited to double (it was only REALLY broken when you had like 10x or 1000x) in a system that has a lot less for you to abuse with it (no chain gating in particular).

[PsyBomb]

Just picked up the sample... I think I might have to make an Elementalist at some point, now

[Fallenreality]

Join us Psybomb, we already have 5 people interested and no DM, a 6th is fine as well :P

[PsyBomb]

Join us Psybomb, we already have 5 people interested and no DM, a 6th is fine as well :P

Nah, already in two games and DMing the Playtest. Can't really spare the time

[Ssalarn]

I love how this system is catching on with so many people so quickly. My home group is already talking about the characters they'll be making for our next game:
My fiancée wants to play a blight and bless Soul Weaver, my buddy wants to play an Aegis/Armorist, and another friend wants to play an Elementalist.

I love that the book supports so many concepts while still doing such a great job of maintaining that Tier 3 balance.

[Fallenreality]

The thing with this is, no one 100% enjoys how vancian casting works. Especially when it comes to mundanes vs. spellcasters. xD

This is fun and versatile, without the problem of making mundanes feel like they suck after level 5 or so. Even better if you combine it with Path of War for the non-casters.

And yeah, the T3 balancing point is what I like about it. T3 is where I try to make all my characters.

[Kaidinah]

I'll actually be playing as a 9th level Soul Weaver tomorrow for the Horrowing adventure module. I'll let you all know how it goes. Life, Telekinesis, and Destruction (focused on negative energy) will be my spheres. Going for a poltergeist possessed spirit magic user. Kind of like the haunted oracle curse.

[Fallenreality]

Very cool. I'm considering a build combining telekinesis with creation. Fling swords all over the place.

[PsyBomb]

Just seems fair to post the link here, but http://www.myth-weavers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=32485&tg=50129 if you want to run these classes in a test game. It's going to be in my Playtest run, so I'll be favoring people who include at least some playtest material.

[Kaidinah]

Very cool. I'm considering a build combining telekinesis with creation. Fling swords all over the place.I played the Soul Weaver and here are my results:
Soul Weaver's class features were very strong. My party loved receiving the blessings. Also, using my Bound Nexus to roll super knowledge checks was ridiculously good. I think the numbers on that ability might be too high.

The Life sphere was MVP this time. I was able to get heals where they were needed very easily, and removed the need for a cure light wound wand (DMs hate them anyway).

Telekinesis was used to hilarious effect as well. I basically used it as a "time-out" that I would put large creatures in. "Stay up in the sky until you pass that will save" is the most hilarious thing I've used in a long time. When they finally beat that save, their reward was falling damage! Hooray!

Despite having Destruction, I actually only used the rebuff talent. Rebuff felt very strong because I had no other use for the swift actions I had.

[Fallenreality]

Soul Weaver definitely seems fun.

I'm looking forward to playing a Shifter in the PbP Psybomb mentioned. I want to test out how effective their shapeshifting is.

[Saidoro]

Relevant: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392982-Spheres-of-Power-All-Class-Conversions&p=18657486#post18657486

Let me know if I've made any mistakes or missed anything important.

[meemaas]

Just as an aside, I've heard that pieces of this book will be going up on the SRD, but the entirety of it won't be made available until after the book is completely finished.

[Ssalarn]

Just as an aside, I've heard that pieces of this book will be going up on the SRD, but the entirety of it won't be made available until after the book is completely finished.

Any idea which materials they're planning on adding?

[meemaas]

Not a clue, unfortunately. Probably the same material that was shown in that sample document, along with the necessary rules needed to use the system in play. We can probably expect the full content a few weeks after its completed.

Either way, know that it will eventually be all up on there like DSP's content...mostly.

[Kaidinah]

I can't wait for it to go up. That way some of my friends can actually see how cool it all is.

[Ssalarn]

Working on my first SoP character for an upcoming game and I figured I'd see if I could get some input from you all:

We're going to be starting at 5th level in a campaign where we'll have an airship and the adventure will occur in a plane that's basically an infinite sky with floating islands. I really want to play an Armorist, so I'll be doing that. I have 4 talents to spend by 5th level, and originally I was thinking of going Protection and Enhancement, but given the nature of the campaign I thought instead I would do:

Alteration
Avian Transformation
Size Change

Enhancement

That'd let me stack bigger damage die onto my weapon attacks, have a larger pool of weapons to cycle through since I can enhance summoned weapons on the fly and put the points from the base ability into special abilities, and have a built in flight mode for surviving/navigating an aerial campaign.

Any thoughts on what weapon types or enhancements would be best for my bound equipment? Any suggestions or comments on the spheres I've chosen?

Thanks guys!

[PsyBomb]

Roc and roll, Ssalarn. That sounds fun.

You may want a reliable ranged Attack mode in there, but other than that it looks good.

[Ssalarn]

Roc and roll, Ssalarn. That sounds fun.

You may want a reliable ranged Attack mode in there, but other than that it looks good.

I figured at least one of the weapons in my rotation would be a composite longbow; I don't think it'll benefit from the increased size benefits of Size Change... Actually, if I size change first and then use my Summon Equipment ability, I should be able to summon a large (or larger) sized bow, right?

The other question I have is whether it's really worth it to grab the Enhancement sphere. My thought was that I could stretch out the benefits of my summoned equipment by putting all of the bonus except the first +1 into weapon abilities and then use the Enhancement ability to boost the actual enhancement bonus, but can anyone think of a better way to do it?

[Kaidinah]

That is probably the best way available in that book. Though to be honest, your enhancement sphere will scale quite slowly with your caster level being what it is.

I'd rather grab the enhancement talents that don't grant enhancement bonuses. Like Energy Weapon, Harden, Deadly Weapon.

[Ssalarn]

That is probably the best way available in that book. Though to be honest, your enhancement sphere will scale quite slowly with your caster level being what it is.

I'd rather grab the enhancement talents that don't grant enhancement bonuses. Like Energy Weapon, Harden, Deadly Weapon.
Right, but at 5th level I'll only have 4 talents and I feel like Alteration with Size Change and Avian Form are going to be more useful at that point than the additional Enhancement options. I'd probably grab some of the options you suggest as I gain more talents though.

What feats would be good? Since I want to be able to switch to whatever weapon's appropriate to the situation I'm not sure what the best way to build is. I'm thinking probably Power Attack as a no-brainer, but I've got at least 2 other feats to select.

[Kaidinah]

Are you taking any of the alteration or enhancement drawbacks? They could help you get more talents early on. Keep in mind that you can spend a talent later to get rid of the drawbacks.

for a sphere-casting martial I'd say grab Combat Casting except it turns out the DCs for half-casters are easy. The concentration DC is based off caster level, but the concentration check you roll is based on your MSB.

As for the other feats, Deadly Aim has no real prerequisites but will help out that bow a lot. Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative never hurt.

[Ssalarn]

Are you taking any of the alteration or enhancement drawbacks? They could help you get more talents early on. Keep in mind that you can spend a talent later to get rid of the drawbacks.

for a sphere-casting martial I'd say grab Combat Casting except it turns out the DCs for half-casters are easy. The concentration DC is based off caster level, but the concentration check you roll is based on your MSB.

As for the other feats, Deadly Aim has no real prerequisites but will help out that bow a lot. Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative never hurt.
What Drawbacks do you think? Beast Soul seems like a good one since I plan on taking Avian Form anyways. That'd buy me an extra talent at no real cost to my character concept.

Any SoP feats anyone would recommend for the Armorist? I didn't see any that jumped out at me but maybe someone noticed something I missed.

[Fallenreality]

With the class you've decided on I would actually consider telekinesis. It would allow you to fling your summoned weapons around, and grant you flight.

[Kaidinah]

I personally love Beast Soul, though being unable to bestow blank form is definitely a drawback since it lets you add wings to party members or yourself without losing any gear. If you are okay with losing blank form, I really do recommend Beast Soul. Is the rest of your party relying on you transforming them, or is lycanthopic an option?

Personal magics works will with enhancement if you aren't planning on animating objects or granting weapon properties to your allies.

And I agree, the armorist feats aren't really eye catching. To me, it feels like they exist because every class ever gets "extra class feature" feat.

[Ssalarn]

With the class you've decided on I would actually consider telekinesis. It would allow you to fling your summoned weapons around, and grant you flight.

Maybe I'm misreading the ability for telekinesis, but it seems like the flight would come online way too late; you can't affect a medium creature until 8th level, and I kind of want to get Alteration for Size Change anyways.

Hmmm... The more I think about it, the less sure I am about the Beast Shape drawback. Blank Form seems like a rough thing to lose since it'll automatically preclude me from mixing my weapons with my flight.

[Feint's End]

Maybe I'm misreading the ability for telekinesis, but it seems like the flight would come online way too late; you can't affect a medium creature until 8th level, and I kind of want to get Alteration for Size Change anyways.

Hmmm... The more I think about it, the less sure I am about the Beast Shape drawback. Blank Form seems like a rough thing to lose since it'll automatically preclude me from mixing my weapons with my flight.

You can grab powerful telekinesis to affect a size category one larger than you normally could. A must pick anyways so flight can come online at 5th level

[Nyaa]

Can't really see T3 here. Might be ok for a caster in a group of monks and rogues who don't want to play initiators for some reason, but even some supernatural disciplines are better than spheres, not to mention akasha and pact magic.

[Vhaidara]

Consider how easy it is to dip around into multiple spheres. I have a gestalt campaign where one guy is a Shifter//Mageknight (still has fewer talents than an Incanter) and he has access to teleportation (Warp), blasting (Destruction), defense (Protection), shapeshifting (Alteration), and is going to pick up buffing next level (War). As a note, he's level 2.

You have to consider if it is worth dumping all of your feats into Extra Magic Talent. It is really tempting, and kind of viable on some builds. But at the same time, some spheres (Destruction in particular) are pick and forget spheres. You can have it be pretty much completely functional from level 1 by taking the Energy focus drawback with Force. Maybe spend a talent later on for longer range or Energy Weapon, but you now have your default action and can spend the rest of your talents on utility talents and spheres (like Warp or Divination).

Then you get the absolute powerhouse that is Conjuration. Spend a few points (Greater Companion, Link, x2 Extra Companion) and by level 6, a human Incanter has a beatstick (Biped, Powerful, Armored, Fortified, Lingering, Altered Size, Bestial [Bite]), a blaster (Serpentine, Magical [Destruction], Lingering, Willful, Avian [Supernatural]) and a skill monkey (Serpentine, Skillful, Shadow, Roguish, Lingering, Quick). And this character had no casting tradition/drawbacks. And all of these companions will scale up with me, allowing me to invest future talents in more companions.

[Kaidinah]

Yes, I have a problem with conjuration. Probably my only problem sphere though.

[Vhaidara]

It's really only a problem if you focus on it exclusively. If you just dip it a little, and invest in your companion, it's not so bad. My rule is that you can't spend more than 1/3 of your talents on Conjuration if you're a full caster, 1/2 if you're a mid caster, and no limit if you're a low-caster (they get few enough talents that I'm okay with them getting a flanking buddy)

Basically, it has the same problem Conjuration has in any turn based system: Action Economy is King

[Feint's End]

It's really only a problem if you focus on it exclusively. If you just dip it a little, and invest in your companion, it's not so bad. My rule is that you can't spend more than 1/3 of your talents on Conjuration if you're a full caster, 1/2 if you're a mid caster, and no limit if you're a low-caster (they get few enough talents that I'm okay with them getting a flanking buddy)

This is a pretty good house rule. I think I'm going to implement it in my current game.

I banned all classic casting classes. Only spheres of power (called zen magic) and psionics (called spirit magic) are in play. Besides those just mundane and path of war. If people are interested I could post some experience reports with the system as we currently have 2 zen mages. A hedgewitch and a soul weaver.

On the tier discussion. Well from my experience the hedgewitch alone already has a ton of options. He took the water sphere and create water at first level and combined with black magic and herbalism and his high skill points he always had something to do. And that was just at first level. A lot of the abilities in zen magic require house rules though as they are not always clearly written or left for interpretation. If the dm is willing to work with the players it's a great system though with so many awesome concepts which can be realised.

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, that's basically why I love it. I will always work with my players to make cool things work. My group has
A Shifter//Mageknight using Shifter as, essentially, a playable Werewolf
An Alchemist//Armorist who fluffs all of his everything as devices in the hammerspace of his claw gauntlets (from a forcefield generator to a coffee machine to a grenade launcher to, apparently, a minigun)
An Incanter//Elementalist who has one goal in life: BURN EVERYTHING. Picked up a dragon companion/mount from Conjuration, teleports through fire (Warp+Drawback), throws fire at people, and will eventually acquire a dragon form through Alteration
A Harbinger//Symbiat who wields his weapons telekinetically
A Swarm Master Dread//Fey Adept who uses shadows

[Mehangel]

Just wanted to put the word out that Spheres of Power has just released a new update yesterday which include a mild nerf to both destruction and conjuration as well as including magical equipment chapter.

[Vhaidara]

That's not going to make one of my players happy. He's using pretty much exclusively Destruction and Conjuration.

[Blackhawk748]

Well this book is on my buy list, though i want it in hardcover, though im not sure if thats ever gonna happen. Mainly i want it for Hedgewitch, because, while i love everything Witch has, i much prefer "spontaneous" casting to preferred, and from what ive heard here, there system sounds closer to my preferred style of casting.

[Fallenreality]

On the other hand, I'm very happy that you'll be able to include more magic items now :D

[Komatik]

Say I enjoy doing broken things. Say I enjoy playing characters/factions/etc. in just about everything that tend to do many things very well, too many and too well for it to be entirely balanced. Yet, I also dislike broken power to the point where it turns things into a farce where you might as well not bother because you autowin everything with absurd ease. A Master of All (or at least uncomfortably many) Trades (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MasterOfAll), if you will.

3rd Edition casters - Druids being yours truly's favourite because they ooze flavour and have lots of mechanically interesting things to do - tend to fulfil the latter criterion, sadly. Often they don't even need to try to snap the game into tiny little pieces.

Say also that I hate statmod-style implementations for shapeshifting because it just doesn't feel like the real thing, but am absolutely fine with "aspect of the werewolf" style solutions that don't imply quite becoming something.

So, say I like Druids. Can this thing be used to adapt the existing Druid or to build a Druid-y character that feels like the flavourful master-of-all that it should be while lessening or eliminating the break the game to pieces without trying part?

[Fallenreality]

They specifically have an archetype to convert Druid to spherecasting, same with Bard, Ranger, Cleric etc. etc.

There is also a Shifter class which is very heavily focused on shapeshifting but less on other Druid-like stuff, such as weather or nature control.

Shapeshifting in this system is done through a system of traits and forms. When you use your power, you pick a base form from one you know, or the blank form which is just your normal body. Then you pick from a series of traits you know with amount of traits being based on caster level. Very easy to use, very well done. It's even possible to make a character who casts using their Constitution modifier in exchange for their magic causing non-lethal damage to them when they use it.

[Vhaidara]

Well, the Sphere Druid is one of the most powerful Sphere archetypes. You can still pick Animal Companion or Domain, and Domain nets you an associated Sphere, with extra talents in that Sphere.

At fourth level, you either get the Alteration Sphere or a bonus Alteration talent, and when you spend a spell point to maintain your shapeshift (the base Alteration ability) without maintaining concentration, instead of lasting a minute/caster level, it lasts an hour.

Now, as far as the strength of the Alteration Sphere, you can grant natural attacks or darkvision by default, one at 1st level, and then another one at caster levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. You can take the Greater Transformation talent to get another trait where you shapeshift. To replicate a Druid, you would ultimately need to take Animalistic Form, Bestial Spirit, Bestial Reflexes, Aquan Transformation, Elemental Transformation, Avian Transformation, Size Change, Vermin Transformation, Subterranean Transformation, and Plant Transformation. I know it's a lot, but as a full caster, you get a lot of talents. And a lot of these are situational.

All in all, Sphere Druid is better balanced. you would probably want to focus on the Weather, Nature, and Alteration Spheres. Maybe a bit of Destruction if you want to have blasting options, and Enhancement if you want the equivalent of buff spells.

[Fallenreality]

All in all, Sphere Druid is better balanced. you would probably want to focus on the Weather, Nature, and Alteration Spheres. Maybe a bit of Destruction if you want to have blasting options, and Enhancement if you want the equivalent of buff spells.

The life sphere would also fit rather well if you want some supporting ability. You can take the warp sphere with a drawback to only be able to teleport through trees or other plants. Creation limited to wood/earth works as well.

Many of the Spheres can be easily altered to fit a concept. It's an incredibly flexible system.

[Komatik]

I'm reading the sample and I have to say I'm not a fan of these transformations. They're fine mechanically, inventive, even, and look like they might be a lot of fun to use. But they suffer from the same problem of disconnect as Paizo-ified Polymorph does - you ostensibly turn into a bear, say. Yet you don't become a bear. You become a human + a couple of mods, which can lead to completely hilarious results that just don't feel right.

[Vhaidara]

I'm reading the sample and I have to say I'm not a fan of these transformations. They're fine mechanically, inventive, even, and look like they might be a lot of fun to use. But they suffer from the same problem of disconnect as Paizo-ified Polymorph does - you ostensibly turn into a bear, say. Yet you don't become a bear. You become a human + a couple of mods, which can lead to completely hilarious results that just don't feel right.

What exactly is your objection? Grab Animalistic transformation, with claws, bite, and grab. Maybe size increase. How are you not a bear?

[Fallenreality]

I believe his problem lies in a lack of stat modifiers. You say you turn into a bear, but you're not as strong as one etc.

This could be solved by houseruling dex/strength bonuses as traits you can take. Say... +2 per trait you spend on it. It would allow your simple transformations like a bear or giant to actually be strong, but keeps you from being a walking death beast with 10 natural attacks and 50 strength, which is something I managed to get out of the psionic Metamorph prestige.

[Almarck]

I quite like the fact you can build your own forms. It's so much better than just... having to dig through the beastiary to get good forms.

However, I do feel your pain. One of the things I dislike about the new transformation rules is that... among other things turning into a big turtle doesn't make you any tougher than if you turned into a big cat. Meanwhile, the main difference between big cats and bears is that bears don't get pounce. I understand why it needed to happen, but I wish some forms came with specific benefits to break out of the mold.

[Komatik]

I believe his problem lies in a lack of stat modifiers. You say you turn into a bear, but you're not as strong as one etc.

This could be solved by houseruling dex/strength bonuses as traits you can take. Say... +2 per trait you spend on it. It would allow your simple transformations like a bear or giant to actually be strong, but keeps you from being a walking death beast with 10 natural attacks and 50 strength, which is something I managed to get out of the psionic Metamorph prestige.

Not even in stat modifiers. Even those modifiers themselves feel bland. It's the difference between faking it and the genuine article. Say you cast an Animalistic, Large Shapeshift. You're a caster so STR score is kind of iffy, but you put in some and got a respectable 16. Then you run into an actual bogstandard brown bear.

The bear is stronger than you, by a good margin and your hide - which you're counting on because your armor just melded into you is actually only half as tough as the bear's - you'd have to be level 20 to get the +6 the bear has.

Hell, we'll be running two traits just to get the claw attacks and size about right, and the end result is half-a-bear. We'll be running the hell away with our tails between our legs if it's about our bearhood that everything hangs on - something we can do because we're wussy 60ft movespeed ferrari-bears.

You're an imitation. Not the thing itself. And that is bothersome.

It's a problem because genuine article style Polymorph effects as in 3.x are broken as hell, but the alternative is unsatisfying as well. It's why Blank Form-style solutions work better - they use the character as a base, flavourwise, and the characters takes on aspects of other creatures, which breaks the expectation of actually being the thing while allowing the adjustment-style method of adding cool things in a more balanced way that's not the openended brokenness of Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange.

[CashanDraven]

Sphere's of Power has been a great read, and even with the recent errata it's still much better than the standard casting system. The amount of control you have over what your specialty is or how many abilities you are able to use is definitely a step in the right direction.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the system expands, as well as what spin-offs might arise from it. The first implementation was very smooth, however I think as time goes on it has the potential to completely reshape the standard d20 magic system, and imo cannot happen soon eough.