Skills and DCs

[AstralFire]

So as I mentioned on another thread a few days back, I think it'd be an interesting exercise to work out common benchmark CDs for skills at three tiers: realistic, heroic, and epic. While I appreciate 5E's removal of hard numbers for everything, a few guidelines and ballparks would be nice. And a thread compiling these results would also be nice, along with a list of a few of the most common or interesting ideas that could come up.

My experience in play so far is limited to the lowest of levels as both player and DM; does anyone have some ranges or skill stunts that they found useful and common?

[Vogonjeltz]

So as I mentioned on another thread a few days back, I think it'd be an interesting exercise to work out common benchmark CDs for skills at three tiers: realistic, heroic, and epic. While I appreciate 5E's removal of hard numbers for everything, a few guidelines and ballparks would be nice. And a thread compiling these results would also be nice, along with a list of a few of the most common or interesting ideas that could come up.

My experience in play so far is limited to the lowest of levels as both player and DM; does anyone have some ranges or skill stunts that they found useful and common?

What you're looking for is the DCs on page 174. The benchmark would probably go to "nearly impossible" checks. That number is 1 less than the maximum outcome for a maximum ability score character with proficiency in the skill and who doesn't have any special class feature (i.e. Inspiration and Expertise).

If you're setting the DC higher than that number, what you're really saying is the task is basically impossible.

[AstralFire]

What you're looking for is the DCs on page 174. The benchmark would probably go to "nearly impossible" checks. That number is 1 less than the maximum outcome for a maximum ability score character with proficiency in the skill and who doesn't have any special class feature (i.e. Inspiration and Expertise).

If you're setting the DC higher than that number, what you're really saying is the task is basically impossible.

Thanks, but not quite what I mean.

e.g.

"How hard should it be to jump from falling rock to falling rock?"

Under a realistic game, I have no idea; I'm not even sure how I'd google for the relative difficulty of that feat IRL. The physics are sound, but you'd have to put yourself in a fairly dangerous situation to attempt it. But I'd be comfortable making that a DC 20 on a Heroic game, and maybe 15 on an Epic game. The idea being that those are best set as elements of tone in the same way as variant rules to make things more or less heroic by changing the time required for a short rest or long rest.

[Vogonjeltz]

Ah. I would put that upwards of 30.

[Sullivan]

Something I like to do is just go into a "cinematic". If what my players are trying to do will have no real consequence on the game e.g. they want to run down this hill really cool, than it's fine you did it and it was really cool. If on the other hand, they find out their going to take damage from a fall and are trying to talk their way out of it, then it's more dependent on their IRL charisma. If they can paint am epic picture of what their Character is doing, and back it with solid role playing, then throw a dog a bone 10-15 or lower. If they are just trying to get out of everything you throw at them, then I would say 20+. My personal philosophy is to role play as much as possible and only roll for things that will have consequence.

[kaoskonfety]

Heroic - Leave the DC's as is - award inspiration every time they are doing something "cool" - similar to exalted stunting.

Over the top "EPIC" (everyone is constantly doing cool stuff) - Remove DC's for having the skill, if the character has purchased the skill they can do anything any the skill allows as long as its awesome - any Athletics lets you pull Hercules, Acrobatics is Legolas, lockpicks is a king of thieves, stealth is a near invisible ninja - note that this will make skill selections more appealing for feats and such and I'm not sure exactly how knowledge and investigation skill would 'work'

[CrusaderJoe]

Remember a lot of people think that only magic can solve awesome problems so you will get "almost always impossible" for skill usages in D&D for characters whereas you will see characters in other forms of games and media do such thing with ease.

People need to stop freaking out when a nonmagical person does something awesome, you can allow non magic to be awesome when magic is awesome too.

For jumping from rock to rock (huge boulders) while falling you could use the normal distance rules when going laterally or up (I hate the up rules >.>) but make the landing check be DC 10, failure means you fall prone on the rock. But you still make it to your destination. This is something you can't do unless trained.

Characters in 5e don't really get to do amazing things unless they are magic and that is quite sad.

Swinging a sword really really fast just doesn't cut it when your mage friend can plane shift out of a situation lol.

[KhorashIronfist]

Characters in 5e don't really get to do amazing things unless they are magic and that is quite sad.

Swinging a sword really really fast just doesn't cut it when your mage friend can plane shift out of a situation lol.

I mean you can say that but when you can in fact slay a dragon by 'swinging a sword really really fast' I think that's pretty 'amazing'. How does plane shift help one slay a dragon?

[jaydubs]

This is how I interpret the DCs from page 174 (in regards to physical activities). I aim for realistic, but it might be heroic.

5 - Very Easy - Could a little old lady do it?
10 - Easy - Could an average adult do it?
15 - Medium - Could an athletic adult do it?
20 - Hard - Could a professional athlete/acrobat/climber/performer/etc. do it?
25 - Very Hard - Could Batman do it?
30 - Nearly Impossible - Could Spiderman do it?

[jkat718]

I mean you can say that but when you can in fact slay a dragon by 'swinging a sword really really fast' I think that's pretty 'amazing'. How does plane shift help one slay a dragon?


Plane Shift it into a different plane
Plane Shift back
Loot the place
???
Profit


Or, just use a different spell. Say, Time Stop, Imprisonment, or True Polymorph. BUT that's getting into a Martials-versus-Spellcasters debate, so let's get back on topic.

I really like that idea of Epic-level skill DCs = auto success at everything (but you have to be careful, what's the DC for Grappling the ground and shoving the planet out of orbit?). As for OP's question, I'd think it depends on how you implement the different tiers. Do you mean higher levels? Higher starting ability scores? Just a plain old we're-all-powerful-heroes epic? That really changes the way you assign DCs.

EDIT: Another thing to remember is that 5e is designed so that you shouldn't alter the DCs based on the characters. Bounded Accuracy (in theory) should simulate the idea of the characters getting better as they level up through the fact that they can surpass the higher DCs. It is actually impossible for a character to surpass a DC 30 check without magic items, spells, or DM/plot fiat. That's why DC 30 is "Impossible" ranking.

[CrusaderJoe]

I mean you can say that but when you can in fact slay a dragon by 'swinging a sword really really fast' I think that's pretty 'amazing'. How does plane shift help one slay a dragon?

Because in the scheme of things swinging a stick one more time just doesn't cut it.

Its like saying a high school student got an A in algerbra is just as awesome as a high school student getting an A in an advanced phd lphysics class.

Sure to high schooler who gets a D in algebra they are both awesome but one is purely more awesome than the other.

And in d&d only magic gets to be the second highscooler ( advanced physics PhD level) while non magic gets to be the one that gets an A in algrebra.

D&D core rules are not setting specific so the core rule shouldn't be stringent in one aspect and so flexible in another for no other reason than "whatever".

You can easily make non magic be awesome, plenty of other stories have done it... Why is D&D stuck in the past?

[jaydubs]

It is actually impossible for a character to surpass a DC 30 check without magic items, spells, or DM/plot fiat. That's why DC 30 is "Impossible" ranking.

*Or expertise, on the resident skill monkeys.

[AstralFire]

I'll be working on a list myself shortly, thanks for the input so far. Jaydubs, yours looks like what I would aim for with realistic. I'll probably change realistic's name to be slightly less loaded -- something like Gritty, Heroic, Epic instead.

[CrusaderJoe]

By D&D 5e standards Finn the Human must be able to pass impossible skill tasks (athletics, acrobatics) on a roll of a 2....

[AstralFire]

By D&D 5e standards Finn the Human must be able to pass impossible skill tasks (athletics, acrobatics) on a roll of a 2....

I don't understand this at all.

[Demonic Spoon]

Remember a lot of people think that only magic can solve awesome problems so you will get "almost always impossible" for skill usages in D&D for characters whereas you will see characters in other forms of games and media do such thing with ease.

People need to stop freaking out when a nonmagical person does something awesome, you can allow non magic to be awesome when magic is awesome too.

For jumping from rock to rock (huge boulders) while falling you could use the normal distance rules when going laterally or up (I hate the up rules >.>) but make the landing check be DC 10, failure means you fall prone on the rock. But you still make it to your destination. This is something you can't do unless trained.

Characters in 5e don't really get to do amazing things unless they are magic and that is quite sad.

Swinging a sword really really fast just doesn't cut it when your mage friend can plane shift out of a situation lol.


Stop turning every thread into a martial V caster debate. There are at least two threads on this page dedicated to that topic, we don't need more.

[CrusaderJoe]

Stop turning every thread into a martial V caster debate. There are at least two threads on this page dedicated to that topic, we don't need more.

It isn't about caster versus noncaster.

It is about how people view skills and the DC.

For whatever reason being trained in a skill doesn't let you be awesome at the skill or do awesome things at all. There is almost no reason to have the current skill system! This isn't just a problem for noncasters but a problem with casters as well.

I like the simplicity of the skill names and proficiency bonus but what you get from that is insanely "meh".

If so many threads devolve into a caster v martial debate perhaps it is time to stop and think "hmm maybe there IS a problem here".

But that isn't what this is about.

In a game where plane shifting or summoning meteors is an action that high level characters can perform without breaking a sweat... Why can't jumping from boulder to boulder while falling (while being trained in said type of abilities, athletics) take the same ammount of effort?

If people are OK with such a huge bias in general game rules that is fine, but that doesn't mean those of that aren't should have to keep quite about it.

Edit:

Think about how much better it would be if instead of casting feather fall when an fighter is falling into a group of enemies (perhaps after being hit by a reverse gravity firld and the bbeg turned off to make fighter go splat) the wizard casts Meteor Swarm and the Fighter rides a meteor down, jumping from one to another, and the meteor swarm takes out the minions and the fighter is now staring face to face with the BBEG again.

[archaeo]

If so many threads devolve into a caster v martial debate perhaps it is time to stop and think "hmm maybe there IS a problem here".

No, I'm pretty sure that, since it usually seems to be one of the caster vs. martial debaters importing the conflict into other threads, we should instead probably stop and think about requesting more active topic moderation.


But that isn't what this is about.

Oh, ok.


Think about how much better it would be if instead of casting feather fall when an fighter is falling into a group of enemies (perhaps after being hit by a reverse gravity firld and the bbeg turned off to make fighter go splat) the wizard casts Meteor Swarm and the Fighter rides a meteor down, jumping from one to another, and the meteor swarm takes out the minions and the fighter is now staring face to face with the BBEG again.

Is there a reason you wouldn't allow this? I'm a Fighter with a 20 in Str and Dex, and the turn after a meteor swarm, I say, "Ok, as the meteors are raining down, I start running and jumping from meteor to meteor, hitting an enemy and then jumping away before the meteor lands. I'm going to use action surge and target 8 creatures this way, jumping back and forth." Do you let me do this? What DC do you set?

I'd be fine with it; the attacks would land or fail regardless, but you'd get advantage for passing the check and disadvantage for failing it. It sounds cool. What's the problem?

[CrusaderJoe]

Is there a reason you wouldn't allow this? I'm a Fighter with a 20 in Str and Dex, and the turn after a meteor swarm, I say, "Ok, as the meteors are raining down, I start running and jumping from meteor to meteor, hitting an enemy and then jumping away before the meteor lands. I'm going to use action surge and target 8 creatures this way, jumping back and forth." Do you let me do this? What DC do you set?

I'd be fine with it; the attacks would land or fail regardless, but you'd get advantage for passing the check and disadvantage for failing it. It sounds cool. What's the problem?

Games I'm in with one DM goes this way of Rule of Awesome. It is sort of like Rule of Cool but more awesome and less Fonz. This a rare though and is not the norm.

But to do said thing in 5e, due to base rules, in 99% of games to ride a meteor swarm would be an impossible skill check. The rules work actively for you when you want to summon said meteors but work actively against you when you want to use a skill to ride said meteor.

This sort of thing is the base problem here.

On system is a "yes" system then other system is a "no" or "maybe system" or "depends on what DM you have".

I love player casters, low to high level. I absolutely love the power that comes with being a level 20 wizard (yay one shots). I want that same feeling when I use other types of characters and when I use skills.

Hell, the Clash of Clans commercial has a fighter dude riding a connonball and able to do stuff as he is flying by creatures (including pimp slab a goblin)... Totally something a D&D 5e character would have an impossible time doing...

[AstralFire]

Can we not have the umpteenth explanation of the perceived issues with 5E's skill system vis-a-vis discrete and explicit abilities? >.>

[Easy_Lee]

This is how I interpret the DCs from page 174 (in regards to physical activities). I aim for realistic, but it might be heroic.

5 - Very Easy - Could a little old lady do it?
10 - Easy - Could an average adult do it?
15 - Medium - Could an athletic adult do it?
20 - Hard - Could a professional athlete/acrobat/climber/performer/etc. do it?
25 - Very Hard - Could Batman do it?
30 - Nearly Impossible - Could Spiderman do it?

I think these are perfect. As has been said elsewhere, how hard we think some individual task would be varies depending on the circumstance and DM. We could debate all day how hard it should be, DC-wise, to flip off a second-story roof or pick the lock on a colossal ancient door or talk a mook into thinking you're the avatar of Jubilexx. But the number you set doesn't need to change based on character level; that's the point of bounded accuracy.

[CrusaderJoe]

I think these are perfect. As has been said elsewhere, how hard we think some individual task would be varies depending on the circumstance and DM. We could debate all day how hard it should be, DC-wise, to flip off a second-story roof or pick the lock on a colossal ancient door or talk a mook into thinking you're the avatar of Jubilexx. But the number you set doesn't need to change based on character level; that's the point of bounded accuracy.

Yes but you can always change what you can do with skills based on training.

Spells are in the bounded accuracy system. To save against a spell or attack with a spell the formula uses bounded accuracy.

However the effect or result of said spell is all over the map.

Fireball: Bounded Accuracy to deal damage.
Fly: Bounded accuracy to keep it going.
Plane Shift: Bounded Accuracy to insta kill abcreature.

So skills could do the same thing! DC 10 may give one person an ability half falling damage while it gives another person the ability Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon fly across a chasm. Perhaps another person can't do any of those things with a DC 10 skill check because they aren't trained in that skill.

Bounded Accuracy doesn't mean you can't change what you get for the same number, spells have showed us this.

[Dalebert]

In a game where plane shifting or summoning meteors is an action that high level characters can perform without breaking a sweat... Why can't jumping from boulder to boulder while falling (while being trained in said type of abilities, athletics) take the same ammount of effort?

I'm okay with that as long as you give them a limited number of skill slots of varying power levels per day based on their level that get used up until a long rest and as long as they pay the price in terms of giving up other class abilities for those slots.

[CrusaderJoe]

I'm okay with that as long as you give them a limited number of skill slots of varying power levels per day based on their level that get used up until a long rest and as long as they pay the price in terms of giving up other class abilities for those slots.

I'm actually against the out dated /long rest mechanic that we have currently in d&d. It isn't needed and it really hurts D&D.

[Dalebert]

I'm actually against the out dated /long rest mechanic that we have currently in d&d. It isn't needed and it really hurts D&D.

There comes a point, after you want to change enough things dramatically enough, when you might want to admit that you just don't like the game. That's a totally valid POV. Have you contemplated just trying some other systems that might be more to your liking?

[Easy_Lee]

Yes but you can always change what you can do with skills based on training.

Spells are in the bounded accuracy system. To save against a spell or attack with a spell the formula uses bounded accuracy.

However the effect or result of said spell is all over the map.

Fireball: Bounded Accuracy to deal damage.
Fly: Bounded accuracy to keep it going.
Plane Shift: Bounded Accuracy to insta kill abcreature.

So skills could do the same thing! DC 10 may give one person an ability half falling damage while it gives another person the ability Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon fly across a chasm. Perhaps another person can't do any of those things with a DC 10 skill check because they aren't trained in that skill.

Bounded Accuracy doesn't mean you can't change what you get for the same number, spells have showed us this.

That's not how bounded accuracy works, and I think you're missing the point by a mile. The entire idea of bounded accuracy is that you don't have to change the target numbers. Ever.

Example: A level one rogue might be good a lockpicking with a +3 Dex mod, +2 prof, and no expertise. A 20 rogue might be legendary with +5 Dex, expertise for double prof (+12), and reliable talent, plus maybe an untyped +3 from legendary thieves tools or something like that if he has em. The level 1 rogue will roll 15.5 (15 or 16) on average. The minimum the 20 rogue in this example can roll is 30, or 27 without the legendary tools.

Thus A difficult task for a level 1 (dc20) is trivial for a high level character who has trained in it. Expertise and reliable talent are both awesome for skills, which is one of the reasons that rogues are so popular. But even going from +2 to +6 prof and +3 to +5 in the skill is a pretty big benefit.

So, repeat after me: I will never, ever, Ever, EVER change the target DC in 5e based on character level or who is rolling. The only thing that will ever change the DC is if the PCs come up with a better or worse approach to the problem.

Edit: as for your spell example, you once again missed the point. The same spell has a higher DC when a better wizard casts it because the better wizard is better. It's just like a melee attack from a master is more likely to hit, whether it does more damage or not.

[CrusaderJoe]

Edit: as for your spell example, you once again missed the point. The same spell has a higher DC when a better wizard casts it because the better wizard is better. It's just like a melee attack from a master is more likely to hit, whether it does more damage or not.

But a better trained athletic user (trained versus not trained) has the same number to get to as a lesser trained athletic user.

You are arguing one thing for one system and then trying to argue the other for another.

A higher level fighter trained in athletics CAN have a different target number for the same effect as someone else and it works right in with how spells work.

Because they are trained just like a higher level wizard is trained and has a higher DC than a lower trained wizard.

Why does your stipulation that target numbers can't change based on level/training apply to skills but not to magic?

Magic DC: 8 + Prof (training and level) + Cast Mod. A wizard casting a first level spell at level 1 has a lower BA number than a level 20 wizard.

As they grow in level that DC automatically increases and yet it is still bounded accuracy. So why changing the target number for skills automatically make it not bounded accuracy?

That makes no sense.

[Easy_Lee]

But a better trained athletic user (trained versus not trained) has the same number to get to as a lesser trained athletic user.

WRONG. This is the point you are missing. See proficiency bonus, expertise, reliable talent, and other similar class features which represent better training. A fighter's athletics bonus scales at exactly the same rate (prof + attribute bonus) as a wizard's fireball DC. In fact, skills can scale even higher with expertise and similar effects.

Do the math. What's a 20 STR 20 fighter's bonus to athletics? +11. What's the wizard's DC at level 20 and 20 Int? 8 +11. It scales the same. Screw that up and you screw up the system.

Let's say you have a hard athletics check, 20. A level 1 fighter has to roll 15 or so to pull it off (fails 3/4 the time). A level 20 fighter only has to roll 9 (succeeds more than half the time). And a reliable talent rogue can hit that 20 every time with the right setup. Better training does not mean the task becomes easier, it means you become better at doing it.

Let's take another example. A wizard is trying to hit someone with a Dex save, and that someone has a pretty good Dex save (+7). The level 1 wizard with 16INT has a 13 (2+3) DC, meaning he needs the target to roll 5 or less (wizard fails to hit 3/4 of the time). The level 20 wizard with 20 Int has DC 19 and needs him to roll 11 or less (wizard fails to hit less than 1/2 the time). See? It scales the same.

In short, learn how 5e works before you try to change it.

[Grayson01]

This is how I interpret the DCs from page 174 (in regards to physical activities). I aim for realistic, but it might be heroic.

5 - Very Easy - Could a little old lady do it?
10 - Easy - Could an average adult do it?
15 - Medium - Could an athletic adult do it?
20 - Hard - Could a professional athlete/acrobat/climber/performer/etc. do it?
25 - Very Hard - Could Spiderman do it?
30 - Nearly Impossible - Could Batman do it?

Had to change that (especially since I just finished The Long Halloween)

[AstralFire]

So I promised I'd get something up 'soon' so this wasn't just a topic where I was being a parasite. I'm still not happy with what I've been playing with, but this is what I've got.

Variant: Gritty, Heroic, and Epic Ability DCs

Example Athletics


Task Gritty DC Heroic DC Epic DC


Fight Mid-Climb 20 10 5


Swim Up Waterfall -- 20 10


Double Jump -- 30 15


Increase Speed by ½ 30 20 10



Example Acrobatics


Task Gritty DC Heroic DC Epic DC


Maneuver Falling Surfaces 30 20 10


Halve Falling Damage 20 10 5


Navigate Narrow Openings* 30 20 10


Move as Reaction** 30 20 10



* Narrow meaning "fit for a creature two sizes smaller than you."
** Half-speed, in response to a creature missing you with an attack. Halves your speed next round.

Example Stealth


Task Gritty DC Heroic DC Epic DC


Hide Others* 30 20 10


Hide While Seen** -- 30 15



* You grant them proficiency in the skill. If they already have proficiency, they use the higher of their own proficiency bonus or your own, including any other modifiers you add to stealth.
** Hiding While Seen only works if attempted while disengaging.

--------

I have nothing for the mental scores yet; attempts to give examples of Analysis, Knowledge, and Influence (the three categories I'd broken them down to) were basically unworkable on my part because they started leaning too much toward 3.x "extremely detailed DC charts", which I want to avoid. As-is I worry this attempt suffers from a bit of that.

[Easy_Lee]

For the above, these are suggested DCs based on the campaign world and not the character levels, correct? As in things are possible in LoTR which wouldn't be feasible in the wild west.

Would like to say that a DC of 5 is trivial to meet at any level, as in you may as well not need to roll unless your modifier is negative. The auto hit/miss on 20/1 only applies to ability checks, so rolling a 1 on a skill you have +4 to (14 stat plus min proficiency) still yields a 5. Other than that I think these are fine.

[AstralFire]

For the above, these are suggested DCs based on the campaign world and not the character levels, correct? As in things are possible in LoTR which wouldn't be feasible in the wild west.

Would like to say that a DC of 5 is trivial to meet at any level, as in you may as well not need to roll unless your modifier is negative. The auto hit/miss on 20/1 only applies to ability checks, so rolling a 1 on a skill you have +4 to (14 stat plus min proficiency) still yields a 5. Other than that I think these are fine.

Yeah. Like epic jumping is suitable for a world of martial arts movies, while you'd want to stick with gritty for Redwall.

Thanks for the feedback. I did make DC 5 with the expectation it'd be pretty much auto-pass for most people, it's more or less "you have an 18 in this or proficiency and it's auto".

[Jakinbandw]

From another thread. This is a reply to someone asking what DC I would set for someone trying to build a barricade out of logs. This would be for a high powered game.


Well, my current idea for how would handle the dc's work like this. No roll on something that anyone could do with time. For example I could build a barricade, so no need to roll at all to do that given time.

DC 5 is trained professional in our world. (Probably do it in maybe 10-15 minutes)
DC 10 is the absolute best in the real world. (I've seen some impressive people that can knock down a tree in under a minute, so about 5 minutes to build a quick baracade)
DC 15 is Low superhuman (so ten rounds or one minute)
DC 20 is mid superhuman (so five rounds roughly)
DC 25 is High superhuman (so one round)
DC 30 is epic superhuman (so still one action, but you can make it last, and make it a proper wall, instead of just a quick barricade.)

in a wheat field you do it with dirt, increasing the DC by around 5.

I base this on the fact that DC thirty is rank as Nearly impossible. To me that means that it is nearly impossible, even with magic, and that it should include every single epic use of the skills from d20. Insight can read surface thoughts, acrobatics lets you balance on a cloud, and athletics means you swim up a waterfall. DC 35 is reserved for stuff that you can't do with a spell. If you can give a justification, then you can probably pull it off. Surfing on light to teleport and stuff like that.

I do have a house rule that you have disadvantage on a skill check unless your proficiency bonus times 5 is equal to DC. (edit: I mean the proficiency bonus that your character has in general, so even if you are lacking that skill you can still try some cool things, and rouges and bards don't break the system at low levels)

I also allow you to roll on information to make up new facts in the world. DC 30 or 25 Arcana to state straight up that in the room you are in there is a small invisible part of it which can lead you to another plane if you enter it the right way.

[Vogonjeltz]

It isn't about caster versus noncaster.

It is about how people view skills and the DC.

For whatever reason being trained in a skill doesn't let you be awesome at the skill or do awesome things at all. There is almost no reason to have the current skill system! This isn't just a problem for noncasters but a problem with casters as well.

Proficiency is a +6 bonus (+9 for expertise). That's the difference between a character being capable of achieving a nearly impossible task, and not. You know, something "awesome".


I like the simplicity of the skill names and proficiency bonus but what you get from that is insanely "meh".

If so many threads devolve into a caster v martial debate perhaps it is time to stop and think "hmm maybe there IS a problem here".

But that isn't what this is about.

In a game where plane shifting or summoning meteors is an action that high level characters can perform without breaking a sweat... Why can't jumping from boulder to boulder while falling (while being trained in said type of abilities, athletics) take the same ammount of effort?

Technically those things don't take no effort, they require extremely high level spells slots and are a thing that can be done at best once per day. Skill checks have no such limits. This makes it absurd to place jumping from boulder to boulder as anything but a very hard or nearly impossible task. It's heroic, not joe blow, level of ability.


If people are OK with such a huge bias in general game rules that is fine, but that doesn't mean those of that aren't should have to keep quite about it.

Edit:

Think about how much better it would be if instead of casting feather fall when an fighter is falling into a group of enemies (perhaps after being hit by a reverse gravity firld and the bbeg turned off to make fighter go splat) the wizard casts Meteor Swarm and the Fighter rides a meteor down, jumping from one to another, and the meteor swarm takes out the minions and the fighter is now staring face to face with the BBEG again.

Last edited by CrusaderJoe; Today at 01:47 PM.

Reverse Gravity is at worst 100', or 10d6 damage. By the time this 7th level spell comes into play the players are extremely likely to have flight, or can easily survive the spell, or are likely to make their saving throw, or, use feather fall.

Literally any of those outcomes is better than house-ruling the use of a 9th level spell slot to give a character the possible opportunity to succeed. Even just sucking up the damage would be a better use of resources.

[Naanomi]

Keep in mind that theoretical skill results of oh... 20 rolled +6 proficient +6 expertise +4 guidance +4 wild sorcerer +10 fiend warlock +12 friendly bard... 62 is possible without magic items or specialized spells like pass without trace, so 'impossible' can mean different things for highly specialized characters

[AstralFire]

I am absolutely begging you all, please do not turn this into another casters v. martial thread. There are multiple threads that are either originally on, or devolved to this subject, I occasionally even participate in them. There's nothing of merit gained by repeating it here. I just want to leave this at, more or less, "interesting ideas the community has for things you can do with skill checks."


From another thread. This is a reply to someone asking what DC I would set for someone trying to build a barricade out of logs. This would be for a high powered game.

Minor narrative fiat seems like a really good way to go for epic/heroic 'Analysis', but also not something I'd feel comfortable even assigning a ballpark DC to. I think perhaps simply accumulating a more detailed list of potential things people can do with skills, as a sort of reminder, might be useful.