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Jay R
2015-01-09, 06:24 PM
There are currently threads on bad players, bad DMs, specific difficult games, etc. Clearly, there's a lot more drama in these games than I've ever seen.

So I thought we could offer each other advice on how to build a group that plays well together.

Here's my number one piece of advice:

Don't collect people just to play a game. Find a bunch of friends that you like doing things with - going to movies, ice skating, camping, anything. Then start a D&D game with people who already know and like each other, and are already known to be compatible.

[This requires D&D to not be the only aspect of your social life, of course. This is a feature, not a bug.]

Anyone else?

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-09, 06:34 PM
I'd disagree. Sometimes friends just have differing tastes and do not enjoy the same games or even the same types of games. I love my best friend, but we don't agree on movies, ever. Doesn't mean I'll invite her over for movie night, but we're still buds. Same thing with games.

RPGs are sometimes a good place to meet some new friends. Just...Keep aware that there are some weirdos out there. I think discussing expectations and what makes the game enjoyable beforehand is a better idea.

mephnick
2015-01-09, 06:40 PM
The two groups I play with consist of people I would never hang out with day to day.

Good players though.

cobaltstarfire
2015-01-09, 06:50 PM
My current group (there's only 4 of us) were basically hand picked from people at Adventurers League. The current DM went there specifically to scout for "good" players, and then asked us if we were willing to form our own private group.


What he basically was looking for was a certain level of maturity, good sense of humor, ability to be a good team player, and not talking over others too much. I think he also was looking for people who have a balanced taste between crunchy and fluffy play style.

AstralFire
2015-01-09, 06:59 PM
My two best groups:
- One was created by friends I met IRL who happened to also be D&D players and were great people. This works great if you can swing it. It also took me fifteen years to find a group like this.
- One was created online by people who met together for the purpose of D&Ding. The best advice I can give for this sort of group is just to keep inviting people and form strong bonds with the people you can rely on. Reinvite them to subsequent games after the terrible game you tried to get together before inevitably falls apart. Eventually, something will stick.

Beta Centauri
2015-01-09, 07:02 PM
Start building trust immediately. One way I've found to do this is to listen to their ideas and treat those ideas as more important than your ideas. Questioning, correcting, criticizing, others' ideas, or worse immediately puts people on the defensive.

Ideally, they're taking the same approach towards your ideas. Once trust is established all around, you can start treating your ideas as more important, on a limit basis. The others will know that you value their ideas, and not assume that you always think you know best.

Palegreenpants
2015-01-09, 07:35 PM
Of all the groups I've played with or DMed for, I've found that those who ultimately respected the DM were the best. If or when the DM begins to make poor fiats or argue with players, respect erodes, and the entire game degrades. I know a lot of people think that the DM shouldn't be held as superior to his or her players, but I think differently. It should be assumed that the DM's judgement and rulings are final, but that they should still be receptive of player input. Yes, everyone is equal, but when I'm playing a game, I want the DM to ultimately be in charge. Respect for the DM should be unquestionably maintained for the sake of a cohesive game.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-09, 07:38 PM
Again I disagree. As a DM, I WANT players to come up to me with concerns. Am I ruling wrong? Please, inform me. Is something not working as intended? I'd like to know. Are you concerned about a ruling? We can discuss it. The thing is...Don't do it DURING the session, please. The game won't be enjoyable for everyone if there isn't respect all around. Just don't disrupt the flow of the game. Bringing up a concern isn't disrespect, through sometimes the DM has to say, look, it is a part of the story, I cannot tell you without spoiling it.

goto124
2015-01-09, 08:28 PM
[This requires D&D to not be the only aspect of your social life, of course. This is a feature, not a bug.]

*cries and sobs*

jedipotter
2015-01-09, 09:10 PM
Don't collect people just to play a game. Find a bunch of friends that you like doing things with - going to movies, ice skating, camping, anything. Then start a D&D game with people who already know and like each other, and are already known to be compatible.

This rarely works out. Say you make five new friends and hang out as a group camping on the weekends. Then one night by the camp fire you say ''hey guys lets play some D&D''. You will get a couple laughs and everyone will say 'Nah'.


1.The Strong Leader DM This makes or breaks games right from the start. You want the DM that steps up and takes control of everything. From social things like showing up on time and not hitting on the female gamers, to OOC stuff like ''don't pick on Tim just as he is dating Sue'', to in game stuff ''The fire does not burn, lets move on'' the Dm needs to take the lead.

2. Game with people who want to Game It does not matter if you have been best pals for 20 years and you named your first born son after him: If Chuck does not pull out his character and is ready to game at the start of the game, dump him. Sure, this is ''hard'', for some people....but it's really for the best. There simply is no point in having someone hang around and not play the game. And it's worse if the disrupt the game every couple of minutes. If they are not going to play the game, they don't ''need'' to be there.

3.Game with serious gamers You really need to dump the casual gamer, unless your whole group is a casual gamer group that does not play the game all that much anyway. You only want to keep people around if they want to fully immerse themselves in the game. They guy who just leans back and says ''tell me when it's my turn to roll'', has got to go.

4.Game with people that can forget about life for a while Yes, yes, whatever whatever. Your life story is great, write a novel. But, OK, can we just game for the next couple hours. Some people just can't relax and have a good time. And that will effect and ruin the good time for everyone else. It's best to simply tell the person ''look, if it is that important....just go home''.

5.Game with like minded people You want everyone to agree on a lot of basic things. If someone does not agree, they might have to go.


For example, I'm a real Dragon DM. My social house game rules are very, very strict. Your on time, or you don't play. That is it. If your going to be ''three hours late'', don't even bother coming. And yes, if your house does explode that is a fine excuse, but nothing less, for being late. This does weed out causal gamers and people that can not be on time. And, amazingly, the people that want to game never have a problem with this type of rule. Most good gamers, in fact, show up early.

Red Fel
2015-01-09, 11:24 PM
Don't collect people just to play a game. Find a bunch of friends that you like doing things with - going to movies, ice skating, camping, anything. Then start a D&D game with people who already know and like each other, and are already known to be compatible.


RPGs are sometimes a good place to meet some new friends. Just...Keep aware that there are some weirdos out there. I think discussing expectations and what makes the game enjoyable beforehand is a better idea.
(Emphasis added.)

Although you may disagree, I think you both hit on the key point here, at least in my mind: Game with friends. Either come to the table with your friends, or make friends at the table, but ultimately, the way to make a gaming group successful is the same as the way to make a friendship successful: trust, respect, communication. If you are good friends, or become good friends, you can have a good gaming group.

Now, I distinguish "good gaming group" from "good gamer." There are some friends, for example, who I would never want to GM my games; others who I would never want as players. But here's the thing. If they want to play, and they're good friends, they'll want to do what it takes to ensure that everyone enjoys. They'll want to meet everyone halfway. There will be that element of compromise, of communication, that lets even someone with bad gaming tendencies improve over time.

You ever have that one friend who would occasionally, and spontaneously, become an absolute twit mid-conversation? Things would be going fine, and then he'd do something - maybe he'd make an incredibly offensive remark, or maybe he'd completely hijack the conversation and turn it into a discussion about something he saw on a message board three nights prior. If he's aware of it, and wants to improve, maybe you work out a signal. "Seymour, you're doing it again." "Am I? Whoops! Sorry." And he works on it. And he gets better.

A lot of gaming groups deal with bad players or bad DMs because that element is missing. The player (or DM) at issue refuses to acknowledge that he has a problem, or refuses to act on the helpful critique from his friends. A gaming group can thrive when the people involved respect one another enough to help each other through the rough spots, and appreciate one another to glaze over the less offensive idiosyncrasies.

At least, that's one fiend's opinion.

As an aside, I really wanted to answer the thread title with "First, you take a shovel, and grab an assistant, and then go to a graveyard... You'll want relatively fresh parts..." And then you all had to go and ruin that by making me say something sincere. Jerks.

OldTrees1
2015-01-10, 12:06 AM
In addition to all the good advice above,

Good dispute resolution skills including:
Actually listening
Intent to understand
Assumption that the other side has good points

It is far too easy for a dispute to devolve into an argument where neither side is listening and unwilling to change their minds.

Jay R
2015-01-10, 09:09 AM
Although you may disagree, I think you both hit on the key point here, at least in my mind: Game with friends. Either come to the table with your friends, or make friends at the table, but ultimately, the way to make a gaming group successful is the same as the way to make a friendship successful: trust, respect, communication. If you are good friends, or become good friends, you can have a good gaming group.

Very nice example of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. Thank you for bring our important points together

Taet
2015-01-10, 01:52 PM
4.Game with people that can forget about life for a while Yes, yes, whatever whatever. Your life story is great, write a novel. But, OK, can we just game for the next couple hours. Some people just can't relax and have a good time. And that will effect and ruin the good time for everyone else. It's best to simply tell the person ''look, if it is that important....just go home''.
I have to not very much like two rules and throw out two rules. I like having a boss on each side of the DM screen. Not just one no matter what side. But this rule. This is the gentlest way to say No drama queens that I have seen. I like it a lot. :smallsmile:

kyoryu
2015-01-10, 04:48 PM
1) Get rid of That Guy. You know, the guy that rages, that can't handle taking "no" for an answer, that insists that everything go his way. The guy that doesn't understand personal boundaries. Just get rid of him.

2) Understand what everyone wants out of the game, and make sure you all have compatible ideas. They don't have to be the *same*, just mostly compatible.

3) As others have said, foster an environment of trust, communication, and respect.

Talakeal
2015-01-10, 05:42 PM
Doesn't a lot of this advice fly in the face of that "geek social fallacies" article that people link all the time?

jedipotter
2015-01-10, 06:25 PM
Doesn't a lot of this advice fly in the face of that "geek social fallacies" article that people link all the time?

Not mine.

I say game with only like minded, serious gamers, that want to game, can forget about life for a while and like a strong, stern, firm hand to make all of that happen.

HunterOfJello
2015-01-10, 08:40 PM
Be sure to find people with very similar schedules. Or ones that are fine playing, sleeping 2 hours, and then going to work.

Find people who either have similar opinions on controversial topics (politics, religion, etc.) or are willing to keep their opinions to themselves.

Find people who take showers either one a day or before going out in public.

Red Fel
2015-01-10, 09:41 PM
Doesn't a lot of this advice fly in the face of that "geek social fallacies" article that people link all the time?

Not exactly. There's a difference between "your friends must game with you" and "the people with whom you game must learn to be friendly."

The former is a Geek Social Fallacy, specifically the one about how friends do everything together, and people who do things together are friends, so if they game with you they must be friends, and if they are friends they must game with you (or else they're bad friends).

I wouldn't say you have to get your existing friends to game with you. I have friends I'd never invite to the table. Nor am I saying that you ever need to see the people at your table away from the table. I've gamed with people I'd never feel the need to see in my daily life. (There's a saying about familiarity and contempt, I suppose.)

I am saying, however, that if you can't be friends with the people at your table - or if you can't at least treat them like friends - then when conflict emerges, it may not be handled neatly. Being friends, or at least friendly, with the people at your table is a good way to cut off any drama before it becomes drama.

Look, I'm not saying you need to invite the people at your table out to the movies, or go to bars with them, or ask them to be best man at your wedding. But at least while you're at the table together, you have to have a modicum of respect, understanding, and trust.

Faily
2015-01-10, 11:21 PM
Regardless of wether you're sitting down with friends you've known for years or with new people, game with people you'd get along with outside of the table too. Gaming is first of all for fun, and gaming is a good thing to start friendships on.

Of all the people I play with both on tabletop and online in pbps are people I would want to hang out with outside of roleplaying as well, and it has prospered into a very good online pbp-community for L5R, and really amazing friends (as well as a significant other) I have met through the local gaming club.

jedipotter
2015-01-11, 12:09 AM
Regardless of wether you're sitting down with friends you've known for years or with new people, game with people you'd get along with outside of the table too. Gaming is first of all for fun, and gaming is a good thing to start friendships on.

This is not really a hard requirement. Like i said, it's best to game with people that can ''leave real life at the door for a couple hours''.

Gaming, by far, is a unique activity that ''just because you and Buddy are great pals'' that you will both ''play the game with the same zeal''.

I game with a huge number of people that dislike or even hate me....and I feel much the same about them. Edward is 180 degrees opposite of everything I think and believe in, to an extreme. Yet, come 6pm game time Edward is ''Tork the Destroyer'' for the next five hours. And all that real life stuff does not matter.

It's really more people you can game with....

Faily
2015-01-11, 12:26 AM
That might work for you, but for the gaming groups I play with and know of here, people don't play with people they hate and tend to prefer playing with people they can have light-hearted fun with. Fun is easier to create when people get along. I for one would never waste my time on gaming with people I hate (for whatever reason), and especially not with people who hate me.

The people I game with are folks I can hang out with at cons, join in online gaming, watch the latest movie with or discuss YouTube videos and new games, because we're friends who have met through our nerdy hobbies. One of the reasons our local gaming club has been very successful in drawing many new members and still going strong now for almost 10 years is because it's an incredibly friendly envoirement that welcomes people to make new friends they can enjoy those nerdy hobbies with. They also arrange outings, camping-trips, and a yearly anniversary celebration for the founding of the club, which all enforce a good social setting for its members as they then interact with eachother outside of rolling dice and playing Melf the Elf.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-11, 12:46 AM
People can be great people and still want different things out of a game. This doesn't make one method superior or inferior, just different. And sometimes, you gotta just say that you like the guy or respect their opinions, but you cannot game with them. Up above jedipotter and Faily both seem like good people...But not well suited to each other. And neither method is better, because they enjoy different things it seems. Don't get upset if your friends or gamer pals like other things.

Studoku
2015-01-11, 08:03 AM
Arrange a regular time to play.

I'm sure a lot of people are going to disagree here so I'll explain. I've seen too many games based around the idea of "we'll run when everyone can make it". When you're dealing with adults who have lives outside the game, arranging each session becomes difficult, sessions end up cancelled and postponed repeatedly because someone can't make it and the game collapses after a few months because there hasn't been a session in weeks and nobody can arrange one.

When you have a regular time scheduled, players can and will try to schedule things so they can make the game. Sometimes people won't be able to attend, that's normal. Sometimes you'll have to cancel sessions- that's also fine- but you have an implicit understanding that you'll meet next week.

Saladman
2015-01-11, 11:28 AM
I've had some of the best games of my life after I stopped trying to get all my friends together on one day and agree on one compromise system to play. Instead, someone offers a particular game to our extended circle, and either gets players for it or doesn't. And sometimes that means you're gaming with acquaintances rather than your best friends, but at least everyone's there for that game, and not wishing (or pushing) for it to be something else.

(To be fair, I've had a few bad games where not everyone got the memo and showed up anyway, thinking they could talk the game around to something else, but see Kyoryu's advice below about that.)


1) Get rid of That Guy. You know, the guy that rages, that can't handle taking "no" for an answer, that insists that everything go his way. The guy that doesn't understand personal boundaries. Just get rid of him.

Absolutely. Eventually, bad players drive out good ones. There is no keeping both; keeping one set means losing the other. May as well keep the ones who are fun to play with.


Arrange a regular time to play.

I first came into the thread just to post that. A consistent schedule is the single biggest predictor of success I've seen. If that means you lose one, or you start on time without one player instead of making two or three wait 30 minutes, well, that's the deal. In the long run, more people show up if they know you're running at 0X00 hours on Gygaxday.

jedipotter
2015-01-11, 04:14 PM
The people I game with are folks I can hang out with at cons, join in online gaming, watch the latest movie with or discuss YouTube videos and new games, because we're friends who have met through our nerdy hobbies.

I'm more for ''lets game'' and nothing else. And I game with people that share the same idea. Lets play the game and nothing else. The best way to get on my bad side is to be one of them crazy social people that just ''has too'' mention things like movies or YouTube videos and utterly ruin the game with that stuff. I have often used the rule of ''if you even mention You Tube or online videos you are banned for life from this game''. And it works great. Tweedledee and Tweedledum just get together on any of the six other days of the week that we have no game. And they can sit on a sofa for sixteen hours or until the cows come home, and show each other all sorts of ''Awesum!'' YouTube videos. And then, come game night, they have all the ''video insanity'' out of their systems and they are ready to play the game.



One of the reasons our local gaming club has been very successful in drawing many new members and still going strong now for almost 10 years is because

I go for more of ''a fun D&D game. There are other DM's around, some have whole ''games'' where they just watch YouTube videos. Some tell long winded stories. Some allow them crazy classes that let you ''stand on your left foot and deflect dragon breath''. And so on. Plenty of people like that type of gaming, so they play in the other games. Then there is my game...standing alone. I have my core players and a bunch of alternates. And I often get asked to run games for others too. Some players just like to ''ride the rapids'' of my style game.


Up above jedipotter and Faily both seem like good people....

Nope, not me.