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NeoSeraphi
2015-01-09, 09:21 PM
Jeering words, inspiration, jack of all trades. No doubt the bard is a strong class but its two colleges are about skills and spells and combat prowess. Bardic Music is a thing of the past. It seems like a real depart from flavor.

silveralen
2015-01-09, 09:27 PM
I think they went a little light on the fluff, just because of how much grief the class has gotten over the years for being silly *cues iconic chainmail bikini comic*

I think that inspiration and even the spells themselves can certainly been interpreted as songs (verbal components=singing) and I think the intent was for that to be the default. The arcane focus of a bard is an intrument afterall.

It does it in such a way so as to not force it down people's throats too badly. A spell casting pouch and no mention of singing when casting/inspiring allows a different flavor of bard, more historian or keep of ancient tales etc.

Iolo Morganwg
2015-01-09, 09:52 PM
Song of Rest, (I think that's what it's called,) x3 musical instrument proficiencies. I don't think the musical element is a thing of the past.

jaydubs
2015-01-09, 09:56 PM
I think they went a little light on the fluff, just because of how much grief the class has gotten over the years for being silly *cues iconic chainmail bikini comic*

...

It does it in such a way so as to not force it down people's throats too badly. A spell casting pouch and no mention of singing when casting/inspiring allows a different flavor of bard, more historian or keep of ancient tales etc.

This is worth emphasizing. I've seen a long slew of players emphasize that their bards are definitely not under any circumstances running around playing music in combat. So it's apparent that many players like the jack-of-all-trades, caster nature of the class, while not being as fond of the magical minstrel aspect. Now it's emphasized as being more optional flavor, which to me is an improvement.

Oddly enough, the change has made me more inclined to make minstrel types rather than less. My previous bards were usually mercenary or military commander types. My two 5e bards are both squarely performers of a type or another. It makes me wonder if I've just been unconsciously bucking expectations for its own sake. :smalltongue:

Nizaris
2015-01-09, 10:33 PM
It's not you, as said above, the Bard's history as a musician really took a step back. Part of it stems from the fact they're full casters now I think. Access to 9th level spells meant having to weaken Bardic Performances/Music. Personally I would have made Bardic Performance stronger and capable of doing more, maybe give them a list of performances they could learn to incorporate. See Pathfinder's Masterpieces with a list like the Warlock's Invocations. You can use your Performance every short rest (twice at higher level) and each turn you could alternate between the effects based on what performances you knew. The different Colleges would add college specific performances or riders and would allow for Dancing Dervishes, Jesters, War Chanters, Dirge Singers and a variety of schools to be more differentiated and made the class be more unique in their core class feature. To me they feel like a Wizard with some Rogue class features tacked on.

The Bardic Inspiration just feels really neutered in terms of class lore. I played a Bard in 3.5 and 4e, as well as a Bardish Rogue with a few extra cantrips during the early playtest, this just doesn't feel like a Bard to me.

Gov. Sandwiches
2015-01-09, 11:08 PM
Keep in mind you can use the instrument as a spellcasting focus so it's up to the player to decide how musical they are. I think it's kind of cool to think of a bard in the back row playing the harp to cast Dissonant Whispers.

mephnick
2015-01-09, 11:40 PM
There are a lot of folk stories about the power of the voice and music, but it's always seemed out of place for me in D&D.

I prefer to play my bards like Dragon Age, where their expertise is much more centred on politics/nobility/spying than music.

Or I play them like Duiker in Book of the Fallen, a travelling historian who can inspire with stories.

Rowan Wolf
2015-01-09, 11:59 PM
It's not you, as said above, the Bard's history as a musician really took a step back. Part of it stems from the fact they're full casters now I think. Access to 9th level spells meant having to weaken Bardic Performances/Music. Personally I would have made Bardic Performance stronger and capable of doing more, maybe give them a list of performances they could learn to incorporate. See Pathfinder's Masterpieces with a list like the Warlock's Invocations. You can use your Performance every short rest (twice at higher level) and each turn you could alternate between the effects based on what performances you knew. The different Colleges would add college specific performances or riders and would allow for Dancing Dervishes, Jesters, War Chanters, Dirge Singers and a variety of schools to be more differentiated and made the class be more unique in their core class feature. To me they feel like a Wizard with some Rogue class features tacked on.

The Bardic Inspiration just feels really neutered in terms of class lore. I played a Bard in 3.5 and 4e, as well as a Bardish Rogue with a few extra cantrips during the early playtest, this just doesn't feel like a Bard to me.

Is it the lost of the different resource to manage or something else that is source of that feeling?

The Shadowdove
2015-01-10, 12:16 AM
Richard lee Byers wrote a series that started with a trilogy called "the haunted lands".

One of the main characters was a bard who left home (like in the "princess bride") to gain riches so that he may live comfortably with the woman he loves.

He comes back an able swordsman and resourceful/clever caster.

When I picture a bard in combat, that's how I picture it.

An example might be when-

He speaks a spell in a melodic and arcane voice to cast silence onto his ally's arrow. Which is then shot at an undead guard who is sitting ready to ring an alarm.

He even uses music to charm combatants or counter other casters' spells. Which has a cool image in my head..

A Mage attempting to throw a magical projectile or wave of force is suddenly contending another arcane resistance in the form of a powerful musical note sung or shot forth from a harp like a wall of defiant energy

Alcino
2015-01-10, 01:01 AM
I love the new bard; loved 4E's too.

KiltieMacPipes
2015-01-10, 03:04 AM
The bard has become what the Red Mage was always supposed to be. I mean that in the best way possible. I've always considered it ridiculous that mid-combat someone would stow their gear, pull out a lute, play a little ditty, then pull out their gear again and get back to the killin'. And i'm pretty sure that Valor Bards are supposed to be front-line fighters. So are they pidgeon-holed to only be singers so they can use both hands?

"Oh crap, a fireball!" Pulls out a fife and plays "flight of the Bumblebee". "There, that oughta make the ironclad Dwarf fighter avoid the ball of flaming death!"

SMH

Ashrym
2015-01-10, 04:59 AM
It's not you, as said above, the Bard's history as a musician really took a step back. Part of it stems from the fact they're full casters now I think. Access to 9th level spells meant having to weaken Bardic Performances/Music. Personally I would have made Bardic Performance stronger and capable of doing more, maybe give them a list of performances they could learn to incorporate. See Pathfinder's Masterpieces with a list like the Warlock's Invocations. You can use your Performance every short rest (twice at higher level) and each turn you could alternate between the effects based on what performances you knew. The different Colleges would add college specific performances or riders and would allow for Dancing Dervishes, Jesters, War Chanters, Dirge Singers and a variety of schools to be more differentiated and made the class be more unique in their core class feature. To me they feel like a Wizard with some Rogue class features tacked on.

The Bardic Inspiration just feels really neutered in terms of class lore. I played a Bard in 3.5 and 4e, as well as a Bardish Rogue with a few extra cantrips during the early playtest, this just doesn't feel like a Bard to me.


They were full casters in 4e and almost full casters in 1e and 2e. 3.x was the only edition where they weren't just slightly behind clerics and druids in the maximum spell levels, and in no edition were they restricted by caster levels like paladins and rangers were (1e, 2e, and 3e had nasty restrictions on caster level for those classes; bards were far more developed casters). When bards cast 6th level spells, and druids and clerics are casting 7th level spells they aren't exactly miles apart compared to classes the get spells at 9th level and cast them as if they are 1st level spell casters. Bards actually cast higher level spells than priest if the priests didn't have 17 WIS and the same if they didn't have 18 WIS.


The musician part wasn't very dominant in past editions either. Bards cast spells like druids in 1e, and wizards in 2e, spell book and all. These are the 2e abilities, for example:

" The bard can also influence reactions of groups of NPCs. When performing before a group that is not attacking (and not intending to attack in just seconds), the bard can try to alter the mood of the listeners. He can try to soften their mood or make it uglier. The method can be whatever is most suitable to the situation at the moment -- a fiery speech, collection of jokes, a sad tale, a fine tune played on a fiddle, a haunting lute melody, or a heroic song from the old homeland. Everyone in the group listening must roll a saving throw vs. paralyzation (if the crowd is large, make saving throws for groups of people using average hit dice). The die roll is modified by -1 for every three experience levels of the bard (round fractions down). If the saving throw fails, the group's reaction can be shifted one level (see the Reactions section in the DMG), toward either the friendly or hostile end of the scale, at the player's option. Those who make a successful saving throw have their reaction shifted one level toward the opposite end of the scale.

Cwell the Fine has been captured by a group of bandits and hauled into their camp. Although they are not planning to kill him on the spot, any fool can plainly see that his future may be depressingly short. In desperation, Cwell begins spinning a comic tale about Duke Dunderhead and his blundering knights. It has always been a hit with the peasants, and he figures it's worth a try here. Most of the bandits have 1 Hit Die, but the few higher level leaders raise the average level to 3. Cwell is only 2nd level so he gains no modifier. A saving throw is rolled and the group fails (Cwell succeeds!). The ruffians find his tale amusing. The player shifts their reaction from hostile to neutral. The bandits decide not to kill Cwell but to keep him around, under guard, to entertain them. If the bandits' saving throw had succeeded, the bandits would have been offended by the story (perhaps some of them served under Duke Dunderhead!), and their reaction would have shifted from hostile to violent. They probably would have roasted Cwell immediately.

This ability cannot affect people in the midst of battle; it is effective only when the audience has time to listen. If Cwell tried telling his tale while the bandits were attacking his group, the bandits would have quickly decided that Cwell was a fool and carried on with their business. Furthermore, the form of entertainment used must be appropriate to the audience. Cwell might be able to calm (or enrage) a bear with music, but he won't have much luck telling jokes to orcs unless he speaks their language.

The music, poetry, and stories of the bard can also be inspirational, rallying friends and allies. If the exact nature of an impending threat is known, the bard can heroically inspire his companions (immortalizing them in word and song), granting a +1 bonus to attack rolls, or a +1 bonus to saving throws, or a +2 bonus to morale (particularly useful in large battles) to those involved in melee. The bard must spend at least three full rounds singing or reciting before the battle begins. This affects those within a range of 10 feet per experience level of the bard.

The effect lasts one round per level. Once the effect wears off, it can't be renewed if the recipients are still in battle. However, troops who have withdrawn from combat can be reinspired by the bard's words. A troop of soldiers, inspired by Cwell, could charge into battle. After fighting a fierce fight, they retreat and the enemy does not pursue. Cwell, seeing them crestfallen and dispirited, once again rouses their will to fight. Reinvigorated, they charge back into battle with renewed spirit.

Bards are also able to counter the effects of songs and poetry used as magical attacks. Characters within 30 feet of the bard are immune to the attack as long as the bard sings a counter song (or recites a poem, etc.). While doing this, the bard can perform no other action except a slow walk. Furthermore, if he is struck or fails a saving throw, his effort is ruined. Success is checked by having the bard make a saving throw vs. spell. Success blocks the attack, failure means the attack has its normal effect (everyone affected rolls saving throws, normal damage is inflicted, etc.). The bard can use this ability once per encounter or battle. This power does not affect verbal spell components or command words; it is effective against spells that involve explanations, commands, or suggestions.

Finally, bards learn a little bit of everything in their studies and travels. Thus, all bards can read and write their native tongue (if a written language exists) and all know local history (without cost if the optional proficiency rules are used). Furthermore, bards have a 5% chance per experience level to identify the general purpose and function of any magical item. The bard need not handle the item but must examine it closely. Even if successful, the exact function of the item is not revealed, only its general nature."


It was still choices of music, poetry, stories, and speeches as options. Inspiration and influencing reactions could not be used in battle and took place before battle. 3e moved into things like impromptu diplomacy checks and bardic music during battle, but also specifically stated that while "song" was used it was meant to cover several options to implement the ability. 5e just keep the abilities open like we had in the past.

Spells can either be spells or they can be fluffed and songs. Easy for the player to decide and be happy with his or her character. In 1e bards gained lore checks and charm checks. In 2e inspiration was very limited. In 4e inspiration was bardic virtue and consisted of temp hp or sliding 1 square. 3.5 was the hybrid model with bigger song abilities meant to supplement spells, but between spells known and magical songs bards were still pretty close to other spell casters in magical ability if not the same chart progression, and higher level spells were simply moved to lower level spell levels for bards to access them.

5e playtest tried the 3.5 hybrid system and the songs were crazy good, and the spells were almost pointless with so little room between paladins and other casters. After feedback they went closer to 4e in functionality and 2e model with 1e and 3e flavor.

Music simply was more from pictures in media and player perception than actual mechanics in most editions. Interestingly, many stories use music, chanting, dancing, and rhyming in their magic and it's normally. The Elan image is superimposed over that for many people.


EDIT: Also, the musical bard isn't necessarily the only archetype. Merlin was a bard, and Gandalf fits the bard class. The historical roles of bards in society evolved a lot over time but the point of spending years of memorization wasn't just for entertainment; it was to pass on knowledge and advice, and create emotional responses that could include entertainment.

serow
2015-01-10, 08:43 AM
I like it this way now. I've created a Guild Wars 2 style Mesmer and a Starcraft style Ghost using the 5E Bard.

Fwiffo86
2015-01-10, 10:11 AM
Jeering words, inspiration, jack of all trades. No doubt the bard is a strong class but its two colleges are about skills and spells and combat prowess. Bardic Music is a thing of the past. It seems like a real depart from flavor.

In first edition, the bard was more about knowledge and communication than it was about music. They did have cool music abilities (percent change to charm through music unlimited times per day) but they picked up additional langages almost per level, had the skills of the thief, the fight training of the warrior, and the spell casting of druids and mages.

Naanomi
2015-01-10, 10:30 AM
Also remember the Bard Handbook 2e era which had a ton of non-musical bards, and several 'musical but not your basic music' options. A dwarf bard beating the drums to keep time as miners mine or soldiers march has always been a favored image of mine

NeoSeraphi
2015-01-10, 11:47 AM
Well, it seems like most people are satisfied with how it turned out. I personally hope that WotC releases a College of Music that drops the bard's spellcasting down to paladin levels but gives us lots of cool songs to play that buff and debuff, to preserve that 3.X feel.

AstralFire
2015-01-10, 11:52 AM
Well, it seems like most people are satisfied with how it turned out. I personally hope that WotC releases a College of Music that drops the bard's spellcasting down to paladin levels but gives us lots of cool songs to play that buff and debuff, to preserve that 3.X feel.

I'd expect that to be best done with more bard specific spells that are best used by lore rather than valor with lots of components that are easier to substitute with a musical instrument.

Ashrym
2015-01-10, 01:41 PM
Well, it seems like most people are satisfied with how it turned out. I personally hope that WotC releases a College of Music that drops the bard's spellcasting down to paladin levels but gives us lots of cool songs to play that buff and debuff, to preserve that 3.X feel.

Do you have a copy of the playtest? You could simply use that bard instead if you prefer it.

NeoSeraphi
2015-01-10, 03:23 PM
Do you have a copy of the playtest? You could simply use that bard instead if you prefer it.

What? What was the playtest bard like?

SiuiS
2015-01-10, 03:35 PM
Personally, I think this is good.

A bard was a collegiate journeyman of the Druid circles. They used music and tales and songs to remember the histories and myths of their people, and also of the power they get from these myths and histories. They were travelers who spread the necessary intelligence and infrastructure to support the human side of Druidic mysteries. The trees can only tell you so much, after all, and no one should have to reinvent the wheel every time they want to join. They were warriors and sorcerers and rogues and oracles, those who spread the way of life of the people and not just the judges and priests like the Druids.

Second edition gave us a bard who was a froufrou minstrel with a lute who sang songs and lost any of his value to his silly looks.

Third edition started weak, it seemed, because te bard was trying to reclaim his roots but couldn't manage. He wasn't a sorcerer of note, he wasn't a warrior of renown or the pipeline of information and intelligence they used to be. They were a magical rogue.

Fifth edition, I don't know. I haven't looked in detail yet. But a step away from froufrou lute guy is good. It gives the class room to breath. They can still be the music class, but they don't have to be, now. That's good.

Ashrym
2015-01-10, 05:23 PM
What? What was the playtest bard like?

The open playtest bard used spells known similar to a ranger and half chart progression like paladins and rangers. Unlike those classes they also had cantrips and the ritual casting feature. Magical secrets was the capstone and granted 5 spells known from any class.

At 1st level bards had inspire competence and call to battle, Those were too good and created insane damage combinations while a bard could simply give any PC proficiency in any skill so it all but obliterated any rogues as an optimal party choice.

The current bard almost exactly mirrors my feedback and recommendations, aside from the capstone ability (I suggested improved ritual casting) so I am very happy with the results, tbh. I even suggested the college of lore name that we see now (they used to have a more jester oriented college of wit subclass). I think many other players agreed with the full caster concepts and it is more flexible in concept design this way.

The playtest bard started with abilities that were too good, relied extensively on them, and got little until some more insane good abilities at high levels like seeds of chaos or rally.

I didn't care for the playtest bard as much and would have simulated what we have now in another class. You might like it more, however, and it could be modified to fit the class table abilities better along the lines of the newer version.

I will see if I can amalgamate the two versions later and post it.

Nizaris
2015-01-10, 07:06 PM
Is it the lost of the different resource to manage or something else that is source of that feeling?

It's the loss of resource/mechanic. Pretty much every class has a unique feature or two that are central to their leveling. Inspiration isn't horrible but doesn't quite feel, well... inspired. Warlocks have invocations, rogues, barbs, druids, sorcerers, monks, and paladins have clear cut class defining features. The fighter is a Weaponmaster without equal, Cleric at least gets Chanel divinity, and rangers are exploration masters. Wizards get the least feature-wise but that to compensate for their spellbook.

Bards get a limited use bonus die and can arguably out skill the rogues as a full caster. It's not even really the music aspect that's missing for me. Pretty much all the other classes have a mechanic or resource (semi)unique to that class, the inspiration feature doesn't stand apart enough to me. I would have rather they made a more distinctive and unique core feature than going full caster.

Ashrym
2015-01-11, 02:39 AM
What? What was the playtest bard like?

As mentioned, here is a breakdown. The ASI's and abilities are moved around the levels from the playtest a bit to match the current structures, and some abilities are modified to match similar changes from the playtest. Call to battle was a first level performance that's been pushed back. Seeds of Chaos and Rally were removed and the missing ASI's were added. Extra attack was moved to valor and song of rest to the class progression as similar to current bards.

This is modified but similar to the old playtest, and might be more of what you are looking for.


VARIANT BARD

Level 1 – Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Performance
Level 2 – Spellcasting, Song of Rest
Level 3 – Expertise, College Benefit
Level 4 – ASI
Level 5 – Jack-of-all-Trades
Level 6 – Use Magic Device
Level 7 – College Benefit
Level 8 – ASI, Countercharm
Level 9 –
Level 10 – Expertise, Call to Battle
Level 11 – College Benefit
Level 12 – ASI
Level 13 –
Level 14 – Improved Dispel
Level 15 – College Benefit
Level 16 – ASI
Level 17 –
Level 18 – Battle Magic
Level 19 – ASI
Level 20 – Magical Secrets

Bardic knowledge -- You learn a little bit about everything. The bits and pieces of tales you have acquired serve you well. When you make an Intelligence check, treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10 if the check involves any of the following skills: Arcana, History, Nature, or Religion.

Bardic Performance -- You are a master at magically manipulating others through oration, music, and other special performances. To use one of these magical performances, you must speak or play an instrument as an action. Maintaining the performance requires concentration and follows the same rules for concentration as spells do. A creature can only be affected by one of these performances at a time. If two or more bards try to affect the same creature with such performances, the creature is affected by neither. You initially know 2 performances: Inspire Courage and Inspire Competence. Inspire courage grants each friendly creature within 30 feet, including you, a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls during the performance. Inspire Competence grants each friendly creature within 30 feet, including you, a +1 bonus to ability checks. Unless otherwise indicated, bardic performances last until the beginning of your next turn unless you use your action to maintain the performance.

Spellcasting -- Use the ranger spells known chart and spell slots chart, and use the existing bard spells from levels 1 through 5. Additionally, select 2 cantrips from the bard cantrip list. Bards have the ritual casting class ability. Any spells known may be cast as rituals if there is a ritual version of the spell available. Bards use CHA for spellcasting.

Song of Rest -- As per the current bard ability.

Expertise -- As per the current bard ability.

Jack-of-all-Trades -- As per the current bard ability.

Use Magic Device -- As per the current rogue thief ability.

Countercharm -- As per the current bard ability. This is also a performance and requires concentration and actions to maintain.

Call to Battle -- Add the spell Crusader's Mantle to your spells known. This does not count against your total spells known and counts as a bard spell for you.

Improved Dispel -- Add the spell Dispel Magic to your spells known if you do not already have it. This does not count against your total spells known. When you cast dispel magic, add double your charisma modifier to the ability check.

Battle Magic -- As per the valor bard ability.

Magical Secrets -- You have gathered secret magical knowledge from across a wide spectrum of learning. You learn 5 spells of your choice from any class's spell list. Each spell must be a cantrip or of levels 1-5. These do not count against your spells known and count as bard spells for you.


College of Valor

Level 3: Bonus proficiencies (medium armor, shields, martial weapons), War College Training -- Once on each of your turns, you can use the help action as part of the attack action, aiding in an attack against a target of yours.

Level 7: Extra Attack

Level 11: Coordinate Allies -- When a target within 30 feet of you that you can see is hit by an attack, you can use your reaction to choose a friendly creature who can see or hear you. The chosen friendly creature has advantage on his or her next attack roll against the target before the end of his or her next turn. The creature must be able to hear and understand you to benefit from this feature.

Level 15: Words of Warning -- When a creature within 30 feet of ou that you can see makes a STR, DEX, or WIS saving throw, you can use your reaction to give that creature advantage on the roll. The creature must be able to hear and understand you to benefit from this feature.


College of Wit

Level 3: Fascinating Performance -- You learn a new use for your bardic performance: Fascinating Performance. While you perform it, each creature within 60 feet of you that isn't hostile to you must make a WIS saving throw against your bard save spell DC at the start of it's turn. On a failed save, the target is charmed by you until the performance ends or the target leaves it's radius. The target cannot move or take actions, and makes WIS (perception) checks with disadvantage. If you or another creature draws or brandishes a weapon or casts a spell, each charmed creature can make a new WIS saving throw to end the effect. If any of the targets take damage or is otherwise harmed, this effect ends for all of them. You cannot use this bardic performance if you or any creature that would be affected by it is currently engaged in combat.

Level 7: Eviscerating Wit -- You learn a new use for your bardic performance: Eviscerating Wit. You plant the seeds of doubt in your foes' minds, using barbed insults and scathing satire to undermine their confidence. Each hostile creature within 60 feet of you that can understand you must make a CHA saving throw against your bard spell save DC at the start of it's turn. On a failed save, the creature has disadvantage on all ability checks while it remains in the performance radius. On a successful save, the creature becomes immune to this performance for 10 minutes.

Level 11: Seeds of Doubt -- You learn a new use for your bardic performance: Seeds of Doubt. Choose one creature within 30 feet of you that can hear and understand you. For 1 minute, the first time the creature attempts to target your with an attack or harmful spell it must first make a WIS saving throw against your bard spell save DC. On a failed save, it must choose a new target or lose it's action. This effect doesn't protect you from spell effects that don't target you directly. If you make an attack or cast a spell that affects anyone but yourself, this effect ends. Creatures that cannot be charmed are immune to this effect.

Level 15: Inspire Dread -- You learn a new use for your bardic performance: Inspire Dread. Each hostile creature within 60 feet of you must make a WIS saving throw against your bard spell save DC at the start of it's turn. On a failed save, the creature becomes frightened until the start of it's next turn. On a successful save, the creature becomes immune to this performance for 10 minutes.


Edited after flaws in the design were apparent.

odigity
2015-01-11, 11:06 PM
He speaks a spell in a melodic and arcane voice to cast silence onto his ally's arrow. Which is then shot at an undead guard who is sitting ready to ring an alarm.

That would be sweet, but it's not possible, because Silence targes a point, and doesn't move afterwards. (Otherwise it would make it far to easy to shut down all casters and therefore be kinda broken.)

silveralen
2015-01-11, 11:30 PM
That would be sweet, but it's not possible, because Silence targes a point, and doesn't move afterwards. (Otherwise it would make it far to easy to shut down all casters and therefore be kinda broken.)

I'm not entirely sure you can't target a point on an object. Does the book specify anywhere?

Forrestfire
2015-01-12, 12:12 AM
By that logic, Silence does nothing at all, since the point quickly passes through the planet in its spin and/or orbit.

Justin Sane
2015-01-12, 12:30 AM
By that logic, Silence does nothing at all, since the point quickly passes through the planet in its spin and/or orbit.That presumes a heliocentric model, which might not be true.

Gwendol
2015-01-12, 07:20 AM
Something like a Seeker of Song, or Warchanter, would be nice to have in order to emphasise the musical aspect of the bard.

goto124
2015-01-12, 08:39 AM
That presumes a heliocentric model, which might not be true.

:P

It would probably be ruled by the DM, depending on the situation.

holygroundj
2015-01-12, 08:48 AM
The thing is, aren't most of the bards abilities based on verbal? Why does verbal suddenly mean not singing?

The damaging cantrip is vicious mockery, and doesn't mean it's not a song. I mean, almost everything can go through a musical instrument, all of the abilities can be sung as well as said.

I don't understand why people think the bard isn't musical. is it just because they're spells and not innate abilities?

Gwendol
2015-01-12, 09:35 AM
Bardic music is a central part of the class, separate from spellcasting.

AstralFire
2015-01-12, 09:42 AM
Bardic music is a central part of the class, separate from spellcasting.

Bardic inspiration is a central part of the class, not bardic music. The assumption's moved away from music. The bard's choice of implement is the only thing that makes it any more musical by default than anyone else talking.

This is a good thing, IMO, because I never thought D&D did a sufficiently good job of representing music-as-magic to make it the assumed default for a base class.

Gwendol
2015-01-12, 09:49 AM
What? Even in 5e you have Song of Rest & Countercharm.

Daehron
2015-01-12, 10:49 AM
The Bard can be as musical as you want. She can be singing, and strumming every round tossing out inspiration, and casting spells with her lute spell focus. Or he could be pulling components from his spell component pouch, to fling spells while parrying, thrusting and 'help'-ing his allies in melee. Using his verbal jabs to inspire, and to mock.

Just because it isn't hard coded into the names of the abilities does not mean it isn't there.

Use

*Your*

Imagination

(not the game designers)

holygroundj
2015-01-12, 12:56 PM
agreed. Even vicious mockery can be a song. So you can do damage, heal (healing word, song of rest), and inspire (bardic inspiration), all while singing.

Our bard even busks for a living during his downtime, so he's actually never not performing.