Do Sorcerers and Warlocks really deserve their powers?

[tadkins]

I mean, compared to other classes, who tend to work really hard for their abilities, those two classes just kind of fall in to theirs.

A fighter or similar martial class spends hours in harsh physical training to become as tough as they are, similar to modern military soldiers and sports athletes.

A rogue or monk is like a modern day circus acrobat or gymnast, risking life and limb, perfecting their bodies to perform the awesome feats that few can hope to match.

A cleric, druid, ranger or paladin devotes their life to their cause or deity, sacrificing a great deal of time and effort in prayer and service, giving much of themselves in the process.

A wizard is a fantasy version of Stephen Hawking, possessing peerless intellect and spending decades of their lives in study to gain their power and knowledge.

Knowing this, it's kind of hard for me to feel classes like sorcerers, warlocks or binders really earned their powers. Though in turn, it feels like these classes might be good for the "common" man. Average folks who aren't that strong, fast or smart, but who still seek to make something great of themselves in a world like D&D. Sorcerers get lucky in that one of their ancestors happened to get with a dragon (or other varied supernatural creature if talking Pathfinder), while a warlock or binder makes deals for their power. I think a story for a warlock or binder character could involve failing at the other classes, only to get desperate and try to strike a bargain with an outside force in a last ditch effort to make themselves powerful and avoid fading into obscurity as a commoner.

One argument could be made in that it's not the class that makes a person, it's their intentions. A sorcerer using their powers to fight evil is a hero nonetheless. Take away Batmans suit and gadgets and you still have Batman, so to speak.

How do you guys feel on the subject?

[gogogome]

Sorcerers work hard for their powers. I don't know what you're talking about.

A person with the gift of sorcery can pursue either sorcery, wizardry, martial arts, etc. In other words, it takes just as much effort to master your inborn gift and become a sorcerer as to studying hard and becoming a wizard. The only difference is not everyone can become sorcerers.

I don't know where you're getting the "sorcerers get their powers with no effort at all" idea.

Same thing with warlocks. They can even form pacts to receive their 1st level of warlock powers, who then must spend tremendous effort mastering them.

If sorcerers and warlocks became level 20 just by standing still and doing nothing you'd be right, but they don't. They require the same amount of XP as any other class to become level 20.

[tadkins]

I don't know where you're getting the "sorcerers get their powers with no effort at all" idea.



Aren't sorcerers born into them, as in they "manifest" at puberty or some such?

It takes effort for them to get experience and level up afterward, but I don't think it really takes effort for them to get started. They just get lucky, like a typical rich kid.

[rockdeworld]

It sounds like you're comparing people at different levels. Wizard 20 might be Stephen Hawking, but Wizard 1 might just be a guy with some talent who picked up a book (this latter version fits better with the crunch IMO). Fighter 20 might have spent countless hours training his physical condition, but Fighter 1 seems more like a guy with a sword who learned how to swing it correctly. He doesn't even know how to Power Attack unless he's trained that specific feat, and if he has then he certainly doesn't know how to Spirited Charge.

I once read a story where magicians had no actual power except to see spirits, and they convinced the spirits to do things for them in return for paying attention to them. The fact that a d&d sorcerer's power is based off Charisma implies to me that they do something similar, except instead of immaterial spirits it's the actual fabric of the universe they convince to act according to their will. And higher levels represent getting more and more skilled at convincing the laws of reality to do what you ask.

I think in the end it depends on your fluff. You create a campaign setting where sorcerers and warlocks really don't deserve their powers, and that's fine too. But you can do the same thing for any other class.


Aren't sorcerers born into them, as in they "manifest" at puberty or some such?

It takes effort for them to get experience and level up afterward, but I don't think it really takes effort for them to get started. They just get lucky, like a typical rich kid.
This applies to literally every PC. Regular people don't have stats like PCs, and there's absolutely nothing they can do by RAW to change that short of high level magic that most large cities can't afford.

[tadkins]

It sounds like you're comparing people at different levels. Wizard 20 might be Stephen Hawking, but Wizard 1 might just be a guy with some talent who picked up a book (this latter version fits better with the crunch IMO). Fighter 20 might have spent countless hours training his physical condition, but Fighter 1 seems more like a guy with a sword who learned how to swing it correctly. He doesn't even know how to Power Attack unless he's trained that specific feat, and if he has then he certainly doesn't know how to Spirited Charge.

I once read a story where magicians had no actual power except to see spirits, and they convinced the spirits to do things for them in return for paying attention to them. The fact that a d&d sorcerer's power is based off Charisma implies to me that they do something similar, except instead of immaterial spirits it's the actual fabric of the universe they convince to act according to their will. And higher levels represent getting more and more skilled at convincing the laws of reality to do what you ask.

I think in the end it depends on your fluff. You create a campaign setting where sorcerers and warlocks really don't deserve their powers, and that's fine too. But you can do the same thing for any other class.

Fighter 1 would likely start off with high STR and CON. They'd be far tougher than the average person, and would have trained hard to get started. Otherwise they'd probably be a Warrior. Same with the Wizard 1; most start off with at least a 16 or 18 INT, which is basically the Stephen Hawking of their time, and the average person would simply not be able to match. They become that Wizard 1 by being gifted intellectually and spending years just learning their first cantrips.

I do think that a Sorcerer or Warlock would be more fitting for the "common" person. Someone who gets lucky having the right ancestor, or someone willing to bargain parts of themselves to otherworldy powers for magic. No special ability required.

[gogogome]

Check the demographics in the DMG. There is an equal number of sorcerers and wizards. That means, to become a wizard, you need to be just as lucky as sorcerers.

To be a sorcerer, you need to be lucky and be born in a family with a special ancestor

To be a wizard, you need to be lucky and be born in an area where you have access to a magical textbook. You have to be born into nobility, royalty, or be lucky enough to have a doddering hermit visit you in your childhood. If you're born in a village with no access to any magical things, guy can't become a wizard no matter how much INT he has.

To be a warlock, because you don't have an exotic ancestor, and because you don't have money to buy a magical textbook, you make a deal with a devil to "get" your textbook, which you practice with like crazy to be able to use it, just like how a wizard would practice with his textbook like crazy to be able to use it.

So to summarize, sorcerers are born with a textbook, wizards buy a textbook, and warlocks are either born with one or make a deal with a devil to get one. Once they get the textbook, they all have to work really, really hard to be able to cast any magic. Even in the PHB it says sorcerers need to teach themselves how to wield their powers to be able to cast their first cantrips.

In other words, it takes the same amount of luck and effort for a person to become a sorcerer, wizard, or warlock. The only difference is their starting fluff.

[Almarck]

"Do Sorcerers and Warlocks really deserve their powers?"
It's a question that in a sense does seem kind of, well, silly to think about when it comes down to it.

A sorcerer does get some innate gifts by virtue of birth or circumstances yes. So do most noblemen who likewise were born into the right families at the right time.

And plenty of people who are artists owe their talents and prowess due to an innate and inborn trait, not just hard work. Some people for instance are gifted with learning multiple martial techniques because of genetics and upbringing conspiring together.



A warlock is in most cases much the same way, though, they did kind of work or did something to earn the power to get started, patronage and all that. Depending on where you come from (edition or settingwise), it can mean nature spirits or gods, too. In a sense, Warlocks have more in common with Divine casters than traditional arcane casters because of pacts and services.

That's just how these guys get started though. Getting to high levels means work and experience like anyone else. In essence, if Sorcerers and Warlocks don't deserve their powers, same applies to heroes who got their start because they were related to other heroes, wizards who received a scholarship to enter schooling, and most clerics.

[Svata]

Um, if 18 INT is Stephen Hawking (it isn't, quite, but I digress) then what kind of raw force of personality is 18 CHA*? Random bum tries to make a pact with a devil/demon/fey/vestige the entity in question either laughs or consumes them whole. These guys have the skill or talent to make things listen when they say something. And not just to listen, but to believe what they say, too.


*Catsing stat for sorcerers and warlocks, and the stat binding cheks are made off of.

[Extra Anchovies]

Your first level of sorcerer is acquired through random chance and the good fortune to have a nice bloodline. Your second and further levels of sorcerer are acquired through elbow Grease. Pun intended. I'm not sorry.

[tadkins]

I love the whole flavor of the arcane and am a big fan of wizards and such. Sadly, if magic were a real thing, I probably wouldn't cut it as a wizard. I'm not all that smart and I suck at math. If I were to become a caster, I'd probably have to settle for being a sorcerer, warlock or binder.

Getting started is the hard part, but once you do, you get to go out, do your good (or evil) deeds, score victories with your powers, and level up like anyone else. It's the whole getting started part that I'm more referring to.

[Tysis]

Random starting ages in the players handbook say it takes 1 to 4 years for a human to gain their first level of sorcerer after turning 15, the same time it takes a rogue or barbarian. It takes years of practice to hone a latent talent into actual spellcasting. Also I highly doubt everyone capable of becoming a sorcerer, warlock, or binder actually does so. Average Charisma is 10 for humans so even if they recognize their bloodline no amount of work will result in a 1st level spell.

I mean anyone can become a psion with no outside help. You just study your own mind until one day you have psychic abilities. Why are people still commoners?

[Vhaidara]

Isn't this exactly why most wizards hate sorcerers?

Honestly, why does anyone have to deserve their power?

Fighters might just be natural talents. Same with rogues. Monks put years of rigorous training into sucking.

Barbarians, meanwhile, just go HULK SMASH on everything. That's less work than learning magic.

If you've read the Inheritance Cycle (Eragon books), I honestly consider the Riders to be a more Sorcerer than Wizard. Early on (first book), is what I imagine a low level sorcerer is like, practicing to control a power that is inherent to his being. The higher levels/later books is him talking to others who have had more experience, sharing how they unlocked their more powerful abilities.

[rockdeworld]

Fighter 1 would likely start off with high STR and CON. They'd be far tougher than the average person, and would have trained hard to get started. <snip> They become that Wizard 1 by being gifted intellectually and spending years just learning their first cantrips.
This is entirely wrong and/or campaign specific. It's actually impossible to get high STR/CON from training while remaining level 1 (if that's what you meant). You have to be born lucky to get those stats (or favored, as I mentioned in my last post). Or if that's not what you meant, it's campaign specific because there's no rule saying a fighter or wizard has to have training in the things they do as opposed to being naturally talented. And my point is that you can apply the exact same campaign specific rules to sorcerers, or vice versa.

Edit: But I realize if my first post didn't convince you, this one won't either. I hope you'll change the OP to "in this specific campaign setting" instead of assuming it applies to all of them. It doesn't. But it's not wrong to debate the question for your setting.

[WeaselGuy]

I mean, compared to other classes, who tend to work really hard for their abilities, those two classes just kind of fall in to theirs.

A fighter or similar martial class spends hours in harsh physical training to become as tough as they are, similar to modern military soldiers and sports athletes.

A rogue or monk is like a modern day circus acrobat or gymnast, risking life and limb, perfecting their bodies to perform the awesome feats that few can hope to match.

A cleric, druid, ranger or paladin devotes their life to their cause or deity, sacrificing a great deal of time and effort in prayer and service, giving much of themselves in the process.

A wizard is a fantasy version of Stephen Hawking, possessing peerless intellect and spending decades of their lives in study to gain their power and knowledge.

Knowing this, it's kind of hard for me to feel classes like sorcerers, warlocks or binders really earned their powers. Though in turn, it feels like these classes might be good for the "common" man. Average folks who aren't that strong, fast or smart, but who still seek to make something great of themselves in a world like D&D. Sorcerers get lucky in that one of their ancestors happened to get with a dragon (or other varied supernatural creature if talking Pathfinder), while a warlock or binder makes deals for their power. I think a story for a warlock or binder character could involve failing at the other classes, only to get desperate and try to strike a bargain with an outside force in a last ditch effort to make themselves powerful and avoid fading into obscurity as a commoner.

One argument could be made in that it's not the class that makes a person, it's their intentions. A sorcerer using their powers to fight evil is a hero nonetheless. Take away Batmans suit and gadgets and you still have Batman, so to speak.

How do you guys feel on the subject?

The part that I bolded? Read the Brimstone Angels series, by Erin M Evans. It's 4e, but it follows a young tiefling orphan (who sucks at being a fighter) who inadvertantly makes a pack with a cambion to become a warlock, in an effort to protect her more naive twin sister. I really enjoyed the series, but then, I'm rather partial to both tieflings and warlocks.

[Vhaidara]

I think a story for a warlock or binder character could involve failing at the other classes, only to get desperate and try to strike a bargain with an outside force in a last ditch effort to make themselves powerful and avoid fading into obscurity as a commoner.

Also, I missed this part when I first read your post.

My warlocks usually did not make the deal themselves, someone in their bloodline did, or it simply stems from fiendish blood. They discovered they had a talent for these powers, and decided to develop those talents.

Binders, in my experience, would generally have been experts before advancing into a PC class. The only one I've gotten to play was an illumian Binder//Occultist gestalt (Occultist is a PF binder port) who found a series of forbidden scrolls in the back of an illumian library. Using what he found there, he began to call spirits and bind them to grant him power. By combining vestiges and spirits, I was a full time melee combatant, using conjured weapons and armor.

I haven't actually played a sorcerer (not a huge fan of vancian casters), but the one I played with actually was a spoiled rich kid. Noble born Aaisimar and everything.

[Yogibear41]

Do professional athletes, and world class intellects deserve their gifts? Does Bob the fighter deserve to have rolled an 18 on his strength score, where Jim the Fighter was only born with a 16 on his? Life isn't fair you are born with what ever potential you have and that is what you have to work with for the rest of your life.

[tadkins]

Random starting ages in the players handbook say it takes 1 to 4 years for a human to gain their first level of sorcerer after turning 15, the same time it takes a rogue or barbarian. It takes years of practice to hone a latent talent into actual spellcasting. Also I highly doubt everyone capable of becoming a sorcerer, warlock, or binder actually does so. Average Charisma is 10 for humans so even if they recognize their bloodline no amount of work will result in a 1st level spell.

I mean anyone can become a psion with no outside help. You just study your own mind until one day you have psychic abilities. Why are people still commoners?

The difference is that it just takes a little event for a person to realize "hey I have powers" and go from there. The rogue likely did a lot to get that first level I think; lived on the streets and practiced stealing, participated in a lot of athletic activity, etc.



Barbarians, meanwhile, just go HULK SMASH on everything. That's less work than learning magic.

Barbarians I think became just naturally super tough through living in their uncivilized hell, where natural selection actually applies. I'd say they take the most work of them all. xD


This is entirely wrong and/or campaign specific. It's actually impossible to get high STR/CON from training while remaining level 1 (if that's what you meant). You have to be born lucky to get those stats (or favored, as I mentioned in my last post). Or if that's not what you meant, it's campaign specific because there's no rule saying a fighter or wizard has to have training in the things they do as opposed to being naturally talented. And my point is that you can apply the exact same campaign specific rules to sorcerers, or vice versa.

Edit: But I realize if my first post didn't convince you, this one won't either. I hope you'll change the OP to "in this specific campaign setting" instead of assuming it applies to all of them. It doesn't. But it's not wrong to debate the question for your setting.

Don't most characters put 16-18 in their primary stats anyhow? But I see your point, having those stats would also be a case of luck of being born with the right breeding.

You speak like I'm some stubborn, unreasonable fool. I'm not, I just like to share my thoughts and see what other people think. Of course everything depends on campaign settings, I speak more of a general sense. I could have my setting consist of scholarly gentlemen orcs in monocles and tophats if I wanted.


The part that I bolded? Read the Brimstone Angels series, by Erin M Evans. It's 4e, but it follows a young tiefling orphan (who sucks at being a fighter) who inadvertantly makes a pack with a cambion to become a warlock, in an effort to protect her more naive twin sister. I really enjoyed the series, but then, I'm rather partial to both tieflings and warlocks.

4e's got some good stuff. Tieflings and warlocks both play a far bigger role in that setting. :)

[Vhaidara]

I could have my setting consist of scholarly gentlemen orcs in monocles and tophats if I wanted.

Wait, am I the only person who does that?

[Taveena]

Wait, am I the only person who does that?

The Sharakhim are canon examples of tophat orcs...

[gooddragon1]

Thank you for reminding me about why I love sorcerers so much. I'd love to just build a character who simply got their power and just by using it learns more about how to use it. Unfortunately, psionics is misunderstood, but a sorcerer? Right out of core :D.

[AuraTwilight]

How can you deserve power at all, short of using it for great ends? Nobody deserves power, magical or otherwise, if they're just going to sit on their ass and not accept the responsibilities it entails. HOW you get your power doesn't matter.

[Coidzor]

Knowing this, it's kind of hard for me to feel classes like sorcerers, warlocks or binders really earned their powers.

What does that even matter? :smallconfused:


Sorcerers get lucky in that one of their ancestors happened to get with a dragon (or other varied supernatural creature if talking Pathfinder)

Not just Pathfinder. 3.5 liked the Dragon stuff, but it's not a requirement.


One argument could be made in that it's not the class that makes a person, it's their intentions. A sorcerer using their powers to fight evil is a hero nonetheless. Take away Batmans suit and gadgets and you still have Batman, so to speak.

Well, yes. The only difference between a Wizard 20 and a Sorcerer 20 is that one is a GOD and the other is a smooth badass who can also unmake or remake reality in many important respects.


How do you guys feel on the subject?

Confused by the question, mostly. Sorcerers are born with their potential and some have it spontaneously unlock but they still have to master it to be able to use it and others have to set out to deliberately unlock their potential, which is the difference between characters that started off as Sorcerers and characters that multiclass into Sorcerer, barring something like White Dragonspawn or magical experimentation run amok.


Aren't sorcerers born into them, as in they "manifest" at puberty or some such?

It takes effort for them to get experience and level up afterward, but I don't think it really takes effort for them to get started. They just get lucky, like a typical rich kid.

And Wizards get lucky by being born to the right parents or being in the right place at the right time when an older Wizard went looking for potential apprentices.

And Wilders get lucky by winning the genetic lottery or having the right set of childhood traumas unlock their psychic potential.

And Fighters get (a little) lucky by ending up Fighters instead of Warrior when they get training. Or by being born into the right place or selected to receive better training than Warriors get.

And Clerics get lucky because they become Clerics instead of Favored Souls...

[Milo v3]

Wilders get lucky by having the right set of childhood traumas

Ah, yes, so lucky :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

Ah, yes, so lucky :smalltongue:

:smallamused: I know, I know, it's a prerequisite to being a PC or adventurer in the first place, but...

[Larkas]

Uhhh... They're game constructs. Why would they "deserve" anything?

[Urpriest]

I tend to think of Sorcerors as people with extraordinary talent. It's not that they just "get powers" like a superhero (except perhaps their first few cantrips at puberty). Rather, they have an extraordinarily intuitive approach to magic. In order to understand a spell, a Wizard has to take notes, work through examples, and perform experiments, and needs a solid grasp of magical theory. A Sorceror doesn't need any of that, because for a Sorceror spells (though only a select few) are simply a natural extension of their personality. Just like a high-Cha person might naturally assume the perfect posture to show off their appearance, to a Sorceror who knows Fireball it feels perfectly reasonable to toss bat guano and chant at people they want to burn.

Does that make it easy? No. Just as a model gets better at posing with practice and feedback, a Sorceror must cast spells in critical situations in order to discover more sophisticated manifestations of their personality. It is easier to get started, but it's just as hard to find which high-level spells you find intuitive as it is for a Wizard to develop the magical theory behind those spells.

[Red Fel]

I tend to think of Sorcerors as people with extraordinary talent. It's not that they just "get powers" like a superhero (except perhaps their first few cantrips at puberty). Rather, they have an extraordinarily intuitive approach to magic. In order to understand a spell, a Wizard has to take notes, work through examples, and perform experiments, and needs a solid grasp of magical theory. A Sorceror doesn't need any of that, because for a Sorceror spells (though only a select few) are simply a natural extension of their personality. Just like a high-Cha person might naturally assume the perfect posture to show off their appearance, to a Sorceror who knows Fireball it feels perfectly reasonable to toss bat guano and chant at people they want to burn.

This. If a Wizard is Hawking, a Sorcerer is more like Feynman - a natural prodigy in the field. But even natural talent only takes you so far - you still have to train how to use it.

Think about it like this. You know that kid, the one who's always been naturally tall, broad, and muscular? It's just how his body's built, he can't help it. Made him really good at sports back in elementary school. Is that going to be enough to get him a college football scholarship? Probably not. He's got the raw ability, but what he needs now is the training.

A Sorcerer is like that. Sure, as noted above, at level 1, he just has his abilities. But if he intends to get from level 1 to level 20, or even to level 2, he's going to have to work on them. And he's going to have to work smarter, too. A Fighter can be proficient in any number of weapons and armor. A Wizard can scribe whatever he wants into his spellbook. The Sorcerer has fewer spells known; his toolbox is finite. The Wizard can just come up with the right spell for any situation; if the Sorcerer doesn't have that, he has to adapt. The Wizard has a supply of metamagic feats, and some ACFs that are frankly ridiculous; the Sorcerer has to make do.

Inborn talent is worth a lot, early on. But later on, he has to work harder to learn what the Wizard has known all along - talent alone won't win the fight. It takes training and practice.

Feynman may have been naturally brilliant, but he still ended up working his tail off before he became a Patron Saint of Physics.

[AmberVael]

...or binders...

Not a lot of people are commenting on this part- sorcerers seem to be the big focus, understandably.

I'm not sure why binders are being lumped in with warlocks and sorcerers. In terms of their skillset, Binders seem to me to be a lot more like wizards. They have to learn all kinds of weird esoteric knowledge to do anything they do- before they can even start binding vestiges, they have to know about the vestiges, have to have those summoning circles and all the little details of the particular entities they wish to bind in their mind. A person without training can attempt to a swing a sword, or use a skill. On the other hand, a person without the right training won't ever be able to summon a vestige- you have to at least invest a feat into it to get even the slightest and most minor powers, which says to me it takes substantial skill and practice.

And of course, once you even manage to summon a vestige you have to make a good pact with it, which requires bargaining and persuasion. This is as much a skill as bartering or diplomacy- they don't listen and work with just any crazy person who draws stuff on the ground and yells at them.

Now in the end, the power a binder really makes use of isn't their power... but the skills they used to acquire it and use it correctly are entirely their own. You can compare them to an officer or leader of some kind- the power a leader directs may not be their own, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve their position. A good leader has plenty of skill and probably put a lot of effort into learning to do what they do. A binder is in much the same position, only instead of ordering around people, they're calling in strange otherworldly entities and working with them instead.

[RoboEmperor]

To the OP:

In addition to everyone has said, it is possible for sorcerers and warlock to "earn" their powers.

Devils/demons/fey/celestial/slaadi can bestow warlock powers in a human, so a commoner might earn his right to be a warlock by spending his entire adolescent years searching for a way to communicate with these beings.

Sorcerers are the same. The above groups can grant a child sorcery. I made a whole thread about it the other day. Basically the ghostwalk campaign setting has a level 6 spell that grants an unborn child sorcery, so no reason why the above 5 groups, who are the very incarnations of magic, can't grant sorcery since warlock magic is supposed to be harder/more pure than sorcery and wizardry, since they use raw magic directly rather than use spells.

Anyways, having warlock powers also qualifies for required sorcerer fluff. Just like how a budding warlock can choose wizardry or the way of the barbarian, he could decide to use his supernatural power to not throw magical blasts, but create spells.

So in one of my character stories, a poor orphan who wants to cast magic, but is unable to gain any education, spends her life hunting down anything magic-related, hops from town to town, eventually ends up in a village near a fey forest, where she helps the fey fight loggers (she makes no noticeable contribution because she's just a child) in order to gain their friendship and finally, sorcery.

Change sorcery to warlock power and you got yourself a warlock who earned his powers

Change sorcery to wizardry and you got yourself a wizard who earned his powers. Magical creatures can teach how to cast cantrips, at least according to 5e fluff, but it all doesn't matter. If you enjoy fluff from 4e, then you should also include 5e, which basically says you can get the gift of sorcery from any magical thing, like a magic pond, touch of a demon, etc. Anyways, official fluff from PHB says sorcerers gain their powers from anywhere, and dragon blood is just one example.

So to answer the question, it all depends on the characters.

[Urpriest]

Not a lot of people are commenting on this part- sorcerers seem to be the big focus, understandably.

I'm not sure why binders are being lumped in with warlocks and sorcerers. In terms of their skillset, Binders seem to me to be a lot more like wizards. They have to learn all kinds of weird esoteric knowledge to do anything they do- before they can even start binding vestiges, they have to know about the vestiges, have to have those summoning circles and all the little details of the particular entities they wish to bind in their mind. A person without training can attempt to a swing a sword, or use a skill. On the other hand, a person without the right training won't ever be able to summon a vestige- you have to at least invest a feat into it to get even the slightest and most minor powers, which says to me it takes substantial skill and practice.

And of course, once you even manage to summon a vestige you have to make a good pact with it, which requires bargaining and persuasion. This is as much a skill as bartering or diplomacy- they don't listen and work with just any crazy person who draws stuff on the ground and yells at them.

Now in the end, the power a binder really makes use of isn't their power... but the skills they used to acquire it and use it correctly are entirely their own. You can compare them to an officer or leader of some kind- the power a leader directs may not be their own, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve their position. A good leader has plenty of skill and probably put a lot of effort into learning to do what they do. A binder is in much the same position, only instead of ordering around people, they calling in strange otherworldly entities and working with them instead.

Yeah, seconding this. Add on that unlike Wizardry, Binder-lore is supposed to be quite rare and obscure. Anyone who can even find someone to teach them Binding has already accomplished something very difficult.

[Honest Tiefling]

Here's a question, why would a cleric of an evil god deserve their powers anymore then a warlock who had to research a way to get these powers without losing their soul? Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if evil gods might favor faithfulness over deviousness to get pawns they like, particularly ones in advantageous positions. Their faith is usually quite selfish, so mostly they have faith in themselves.

And even sorcerers, depending on your version, they'd have to survive. There's probably going to be a lot of cases where their ancestry is something people don't appreciate. Evil dragons, fiends, abberrations, etc. End they might not like an untrained spellcaster wandering around, at least not in their town.

[Kingsnake]

I'm a little confused as to where all of you're getting the idea that even the most basic of spells are simply "known" by a sorcerer. The ability is inherent, yes, but not the knowledge. Looking through the book, I can see it's not explicitly spelled out, but it always seemed rather obvious to me that what they get by default- what they simply 'have' as a result of their inborn power manifesting- is an effect, not a spell. 'Light' is a level 0 cantrip that gives the illumination of a torch and lasts for ten minutes per level. A first-level sorcerer could do that, but a mere untrained potential sorcerer probably couldn't do more than a few seconds' worth of glow-in-the-dark. Acid splash accurately fires an orb of acid strong enough to deal 1d3 damage nearly 30 feet; an untapped potential probably couldn't do more than hurl a liquid that makes the target mildly uncomfortable if they're within spitting distance. Honing and refining your raw abilities to the point where it qualifies as a spell- even a level zero one- takes work and practice. Without that, you're not a magic user, you're just a person who weird things happen around. Even a first level sorcerer HAS earned their power, at least in my book.

[tadkins]

I mentioned Binder because in the ToM it specifically mentions that Binding is an "easy" path. Draw your vestige sign in the dirt and let 'er rip.

Of course it takes effort for any of them to get past level 1, but like any rich kid, I'm thinking that they start off with a great advantage over everyone else. They didn't have to train or study like the others do.

Can Sorcerers, Warlocks and Binders really study for their power? They don't get all the knowledges like a wizard does. Does a sorcerer really get anything by sitting down at a desk and poring over a magical spellbook?

[Vhaidara]

Can Sorcerers, Warlocks and Binders really study for their power? They don't get all the knowledges like a wizard does. Does a sorcerer really get anything by sitting down at a desk and poring over a magical spellbook?

No, that would be a wizard. The sorcerer skips straight to practicing, throwing small puddles of acid a few inches, eventually developing it into Acid Splash.

[tadkins]

No, that would be a wizard. The sorcerer skips straight to practicing, throwing small puddles of acid a few inches, eventually developing it into Acid Splash.

So in essence, it really is far easier to be a sorcerer than a wizard. Hence, the OP question!

[Flickerdart]

So in essence, it really is far easier to be a sorcerer than a wizard. Hence, the OP question!
What? No. That's like saying it's far easier to be a realist painter than a mathematician because you just smear around paint on a canvas until it looks good, whereas mathematicians have to spend years on study.

[Vhaidara]

So in essence, it really is far easier to be a sorcerer than a wizard. Hence, the OP question!

No. The wizard is the guy who can learn to tame a lion just reading the book 5 hundred times. The sorcerer is the guy who has to go and actually tame the lion to understand how it works, without reading the book ahead of time.

Wizard = Theory
Sorcerer = Practice

[AmberVael]

I mentioned Binder because in the ToM it specifically mentions that Binding is an "easy" path. Draw your vestige sign in the dirt and let 'er rip.

Of course it takes effort for any of them to get past level 1, but like any rich kid, I'm thinking that they start off with a great advantage over everyone else. They didn't have to train or study like the others do.

Can Sorcerers, Warlocks and Binders really study for their power? They don't get all the knowledges like a wizard does. Does a sorcerer really get anything by sitting down at a desk and poring over a magical spellbook?

Binders have to study for their power. Not as much a wizard does, perhaps, but you can't know the vestiges and their seals without learning them from somewhere. its also noted that Binders generally have substantial reason to continue to study in order to better grasp the vestiges they bind, so they remain capable of summoning them (as details of their summoning can change over time). And while it is emphasized that summoning a vestige is relatively easy, it also notes that you can only bind vestiges with a power that is relative to yours. I doubt your "personal power" will just increase out of nowhere.

Book study is something Binders do. Its not the end all of what they do, but they definitely need to do some of it along with whatever other practices and disciplines they need to perform to increase their personal power.
...and they do a lot more of book study than say, a barbarian.

[Almarck]

I mentioned Binder because in the ToM it specifically mentions that Binding is an "easy" path. Draw your vestige sign in the dirt and let 'er rip.

Of course it takes effort for any of them to get past level 1, but like any rich kid, I'm thinking that they start off with a great advantage over everyone else. They didn't have to train or study like the others do.


That's a social stigma created by wizards who feel that they are inherently better than other casters because they feel going to school makes them that much better. Not an objective look at what binding or sorcery is.

Binding is quite complex in what you need to do to bind a vestige. Knowing signs and names of beings that should not exist is not easy; frankly, it's quite literally like summoning an outsider with Planar Ally made harder because Vestiges and Spirits are outside of reality. This is especially more difficult if the society in question has very little ability to produce such texts and materials. Even more so if binding is culturally unacceptable. Essentially, combine the studies of magic required to being a wizard with social stigma, and the requirement that tomes of magic you need in a country might total in the handful.

Sorcery, I can't add anything new to what has already been said. It's partly innate talent, partly not.



Can Sorcerers, Warlocks and Binders really study for their power? They don't get all the knowledges like a wizard does. Does a sorcerer really get anything by sitting down at a desk and poring over a magical spellbook?
having all knowledges is not because the Wizard studies magic, rather because the wizard comes from an academia by default. Their access to all knowledge skill is less to due to wizardy requiring smarts and study (while it does need this), and more because the background wizards train in before 1st level encourages it. Nobility and geography are rarely magical. Local, engineering, and Nature are the same way.

Studying means different things to people. Yes, while it can mean pouring over spell books to learn spells, other forms of study involve practice. such as swinging a sword or casting a spell over and over again to perfect the motions.



So in essence, it really is far easier to be a sorcerer than a wizard. Hence, the OP question!
Just because they skip straight to spellcasting doesn't make it objectively easier. A wizard or sorcerer can be a total failure at casting spells, and still be a wizard or sorcerer. They're bad at it, but they have the capacity to do it sometimes.


Okay, so, I want to know something. What is your stake in all this tadkins? What is the reason that you brought up this thread?

I think we might be arguing and debating with you in the wrong context and I would like to clarify the matter. Because, we're clearly missing something if the discussion seems to be "You vs everyone else". We need context.

[tadkins]

Alrighty, I understand what you guys mean. Thanks for the replies.




Okay, so, I want to know something. What is your stake in all this tadkins? What is the reason that you brought up this thread?

I think we might be arguing and debating with you in the wrong context and I would like to clarify the matter. Because, we're clearly missing something if the discussion seems to be "You vs everyone else". We need context.

That wasn't my intention, really. The whole "me vs you" thing. It was just a subject I was curious about. For a more personal stake I have in the subject, see Post #10.

[atemu1234]

Aren't sorcerers born into them, as in they "manifest" at puberty or some such?

It takes effort for them to get experience and level up afterward, but I don't think it really takes effort for them to get started. They just get lucky, like a typical rich kid.

No. They begin to show signs of magical ability around puberty.

But they are simply gifted. No class doesn't require giftedness in one area. A wizard needs intelligence, being born with sixteen intelligence is a gift. And both still work to hone it.

[tadkins]

No. They begin to show signs of magical ability around puberty.

But they are simply gifted. No class doesn't require giftedness in one area. A wizard needs intelligence, being born with sixteen intelligence is a gift. And both still work to hone it.

Yep, this is the conclusion I came to from this thread. Both require work and both require being lucky to be born with special gifts, so in the end it doesn't matter too much.

[illyahr]

Just as an FYI: according to legends, sorcerers were people who charmed or commanded spirits to perform magical services for them. Solomon, of ancient Hebrew legend, persuaded angels and commanded bound demons to build the Great Temple. This goes well with the Sorcerer's reliance on a high Charisma.

[Milo v3]

A warlock deserves his powers at least as much as a divine caster deserves there's.

[(Un)Inspired]

How do you determine whether or not someone deserves something?

I understand that some people might have the intuition that things like hardwork or ability can translate to deserving something but I don't understand how this can be show logically.

Can anyone tell me how we determine how anyone deserves their power? I'm not asking rhetorically, if it can be explain to me I'd love to try to understand.

I think that if we got to an explanation for how anyone can deserve anything then we can work towards determining whether or not sorcerers and warlocks deserve what they have.

[RoboEmperor]

Can Sorcerers, Warlocks and Binders really study for their power? They don't get all the knowledges like a wizard does. Does a sorcerer really get anything by sitting down at a desk and poring over a magical spellbook?

Being born with an exotic bloodline is the same as being born rich.

They can't study for their power, but they can work hard to gain their power. Refer to my other post. Warlocks and Sorcerers can obtain their magical powers via interaction with devils/demons/fey/celestial/slaadi


How do you determine whether or not someone deserves something?

I understand that some people might have the intuition that things like hardwork or ability can translate to deserving something but I don't understand how this can be show logically.

Can anyone tell me how we determine how anyone deserves their power? I'm not asking rhetorically, if it can be explain to me I'd love to try to understand.

I think that if we got to an explanation for how anyone can deserve anything then we can work towards determining whether or not sorcerers and warlocks deserve what they have.

Effort = deserve.

If a guy works hard for a power, he deserves it.

If a guy makes a deal for power, then thanks to his work, his descendents deserve the power. It wouldn't be fair if a normal commoner got his power without one of his ancestors damning his soul.

If a human female seduces an outsider so she may bear a sorcerous lineage, she deserves it. Or if she seduces for love, she still deserves it.

Only time I think a guy doesn't deserve his power is if he steals it or it is obtained by accident. i.e. the ghostwalk spell that turns unborn babies into sorcerer somehow misses its intended target and hits a normal commoner. Then that commoner wouldn't "deserve" it. But then again that's no different than winning the lottery. The commoner got lucky, so maybe he does deserve a sorcerer daughter.

[Milo v3]

Only time I think a guy doesn't deserve his power is if he steals it.

Though, stealing power would be classified as effort in a lot of cases.

[RoboEmperor]

Though, stealing power would be classified as effort in a lot of cases.

You're right, but I consider this case

1. Guy works 100 years on a golem
2. At the last minute a thief comes, has a summoned creature pin the guy down, and uses a rod of construct control to steal the golem.

I don't think the thief deserves the super awesome golem that took 100 years to craft. But in the following case

1. Dragon has a huge stash of treasure
2. A thief steals an artifact in the stash

I'd say the thief does deserve the artifact. But then again, if the dragon spent a 100 years hunting the artifact down... Iunno. The thief deserves the artifact more than a commoner, but doesn't deserve it as much as the dragon? XD

[facelessminion]

Do they deserve their power? As noted by others, some do, and some don't.

As far as justification for the ones that don't, the idea of a warrior who is remarkably gifted despite being pants on head retarded is a pretty popular archetype, in everything from greek myths to wuxia to DBZ.

[(Un)Inspired]

Being born with an exotic bloodline is the same as being born rich.

They can't study for their power, but they can work hard to gain their power. Refer to my other post. Warlocks and Sorcerers can obtain their magical powers via interaction with devils/demons/fey/celestial/slaadi



Effort = deserve.

If a guy works hard for a power, he deserves it.

If a guy makes a deal for power, then thanks to his work, his descendents deserve the power. It wouldn't be fair if a normal commoner got his power without one of his ancestors damning his soul.

If a human female seduces an outsider so she may bear a sorcerous lineage, she deserves it. Or if she seduces for love, she still deserves it.

Only time I think a guy doesn't deserve his power is if he steals it or it is obtained by accident. i.e. the ghostwalk spell that turns unborn babies into sorcerer somehow misses its intended target and hits a normal commoner. Then that commoner wouldn't "deserve" it. But then again that's no different than winning the lottery. The commoner got lucky, so maybe he does deserve a sorcerer daughter.

Can you explain to me why you believe effort=power?

I understand that some people agree with you. I just want to understand what the causal link between them is.

[RoboEmperor]

Can you explain to me why you believe effort=power?

I understand that some people agree with you. I just want to understand what the causal link between them is.

Not power, deserve.

It's the difference between:
1. A MMORPG player who grinds a boss monster that spawns once an hour that takes a ton of expensive consumable items to take down for an entire year and to finally get the rare weapon drop.
2. A GM creates the item and just gives it to his niece.

Of course, the GM deserves to be able to give such rare items to his niece if and only if he is the guy who created the entire game, not a guy who got a job to be GM and is breaking his contract to be nice to his niece.

or

3. A guy just happened to come across the guy in #1 when the rare weapon drop finally drops. He then kills the exhausted guy in #1 and grabs the rare weapon. This guy doesn't deserve the weapon.

[(Un)Inspired]

Not power, deserve.

It's the difference between:
1. A MMORPG player who grinds a boss monster that spawns once an hour that takes a ton of expensive consumable items to take down for an entire year and to finally get the rare weapon drop.
2. A GM creates the item and just gives it to his niece.

Of course, the GM deserves to be able to give such rare items to his niece if and only if he is the guy who created the entire game, not a guy who got a job to be GM and is breaking his contract to be nice to his niece.

or

3. A guy just happened to come across the guy in #1 when the rare weapon drop finally drops. He then kills the exhausted guy in #1 and grabs the rare weapon. This guy doesn't deserve the weapon.

Sorry that effort=power was a mistype on my part.

You're giving examples of people you believe deserve things and don't deserve things but you're not explaining why the circumstances they are involved in lead to them deserving what they have.

For instance: in your #1 example I believe that you are saying that the player deserves to have the weapon because they spent expenses and time to acquire it. What I don't understand is the link between time and/or effort spent and the quality of deserving.

What support is there for the argumentative premise that putting in time or effort means that someone deserves something?

This may seem a bit off topic but I think it's critical for determining whether or not sorcerers and warlocks deserve what they have.

[Almarck]

Not power, deserve.

It's the difference between:
1. A MMORPG player who grinds a boss monster that spawns once an hour that takes a ton of expensive consumable items to take down for an entire year and to finally get the rare weapon drop.
2. A GM creates the item and just gives it to his niece.

Of course, the GM deserves to be able to give such rare items to his niece if and only if he is the guy who created the entire game, not a guy who got a job to be GM and is breaking his contract to be nice to his niece.

or

3. A guy just happened to come across the guy in #1 when the rare weapon drop finally drops. He then kills the exhausted guy in #1 and grabs the rare weapon. This guy doesn't deserve the weapon.

While those are deplorable reasons of GM conduct, the situation of binders and sorcerers is not an MMORPG nor is the situation similar to that in any way that that analogy can work.

I mean, just how are sorcererers and binders GMs who cheat their way into beating bosses and grab rare items for themselves against the rules?

[RoboEmperor]

While those are deplorable reasons of GM conduct, the situation of binders and sorcerers is not an MMORPG nor is the situation similar to that in any way that that analogy can work.

I mean, just how are sorcererers and binders GMs who cheat their way into beating bosses and grab rare items for themselves against the rules?

You are absolutely correct. I was just trying to think of a clear example I can use to answer (Un)Inspired's question.


Sorry that effort=power was a mistype on my part.

You're giving examples of people you believe deserve things and don't deserve things but you're not explaining why the circumstances they are involved in lead to them deserving what they have.

For instance: in your #1 example I believe that you are saying that the player deserves to have the weapon because they spent expenses and time to acquire it. What I don't understand is the link between time and/or effort spent and the quality of deserving.

What support is there for the argumentative premise that putting in time or effort means that someone deserves something?

This may seem a bit off topic but I think it's critical for determining whether or not sorcerers and warlocks deserve what they have.

There's no law on who "deserves" what. Some people say that guy deserves to go to hell, other people says no one deserves to go to hell. It's all subjective. It's like trying to find the relationship between ingredients and delicious dishes. Sure there is SOME consensus, like dirt = bad, but each individual has different tastes, so there can be no consensus on which ingredients are delicious to everyone.

Some people say warlocks deserve their powers because they damned themselves to get it, or one of their ancestors damned themselves so the current generation may have warlock powers. Other people say warlock magic is evil and no one deserves to have that power.

Some people say sorcerers don't deserve their power because it's granted by "cheaters" who perform disgusting inter-species mating and it's not fair to those who try to live cleanly. Like steroid users vs non steroid users. Other people say sorcerers deserve their power because god gave them those powers. Universe chose them to cast magic.

You make make an infinite list of whether or not a class deserves to have their powers or not, and it also all depends on the individual too, the one judging and the one receiving the judgment. But it is my opinion that the OP's reasons for warlocks and sorcerers not deserving their powers is incorrect and based on wrong assumptions with no wiggle room.

[Deophaun]

I mean, compared to other classes, who tend to work really hard for their abilities, those two classes just kind of fall in to theirs.
Indeed. It's so easy being a sorcerer that they have time for 6+Int skill points per level and bonus feats to reflect all that time they don't have to work at their gift.

Really, talk to the Bards and Wizards about slacking off. Those careers are obviously less demanding.

[goto124]

So someone's lucky enough to get a special talent, whether it's of the more mundane (fast runner, high jumper, charismatic, etc.) or magical kind, while others have to work harder to achieve the same effect. What do we do about it- kill the lucky people? Berate them for not 'deserving' their powers?