Abjurant Champion

[Shatenjager]

I'm working on an Abjurant Champion and I wanted to shoot it by you guys.

Campaign is level 9 so I thought I'd go Human Swashbuckler(5)/Wizard(1)/Abjurant Champion(3)

My feats are as follows:
Combat Casting (needed for Abjurant Champion)
Combat Expertise (for a much needed AC boost)
Deadly Defence (extra damage with Combat expertise)
Improved Inititive (so that I can have some buffs before I'm hit)
Dodge (Eh, more AC and prereqs for what I want later)

I would love to get Mobility and Elusive target as well but have run out of feats.

I worry about my AC as it is only 15-16 before buffs. Now just a shield spell will put me up by 7AC, but surprise rounds could suck.

Are there better feats for me to choose? Should I use 2 levels of fighter to get Mobility and Elusive Target (as opposed to levels 4 and 5 of swashbuckler).

The campaign is probably only going to around 12th level.

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah. Swash 3 is about where the class stops being useful Swash 3/Fig 2/Wiz 1/AbjCham 3 would probably be more effective.

[Ramza00]

Only do 3 lvls of Swashbuckler for any Gish, 5 levels is not worth the Dodge Bonus and the extra 7 hps (average roll of 3.5)

Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 4 or 5/Abjurant Champion 1 or 2. at lvl 9 your bab will be 7 or 6.5

A fighter gish will be more effective but your build can be very successful.

Dex of 14 is +2
Greater Mage Armor is +6 (and it may be +1/+2 more depends if your DM rules mage armor gives or doesn't give the abjuration ac spell bonus)
A mithral light buckler will have 0 ASF giving you +1 AC

Barkskin Drd 2 +2 Enchantment to Natural Armor
Magic Vestament Clr 2 should give you +2 Enchantment to your Shield Bonus.

So far I am up to 23 (assuming you have party members or a wand), and I ain't really trying, (my head is still killing me from last night)

[Ramza00]

False Life will help with your HP issues.

[Fax Celestis]

Feycraft Twilight Mithral Breastplate +1 has 0% ASF, acts like light armor, an AC of +6, a max dex of +5, and an ACP of -1.

[martyboy74]

Feycraft Twilight Mithral Breastplate +1 has 0% ASF, acts like light armor, an AC of +6, a max dex of +5, and an ACP of -1.
How much does that cost?


How manybooks do you need for that?

[Ramza00]

Twilight is BOED
Feycraft I have no clue
the rest is in the SRD

Thistledown is another option instead of Feycraft, it is a "cloth" suit you wear under armor. Races of the Wild

[Shatenjager]

I don't want to go with too much wizard as I want to basically be a magical fighter. He doesn't really have HP issues, afterall Swash/Fighter is D10, and Abjurant is D8 (might be wrong here but it wasn't no slouch, and I don't have the book on me).

I know that I can increase the AC with actions and spells, but one of the things I really don't want to do as a gish build is to spend several rounds buffing before wading into combat.

I see the typical combat as this:
Starting AC: 15 (4 DEX, 1 amulet of natural armor)
Hopefully has mage armor up (and with only 5 hours a day that is a little iffy): AC 19

First Round:
Swift Cast Shield: AC 26 (normal 4 + 3 from abjuration bonus)
Designate Dodge target: AC 27
(if still swashbuckler 5 designate second dodge target but I don't think I'll be doing that).
Charge into melee (or walk if in range)
Attack with a combat expertise of at least +2 (cancelling out the charge and making defensive strike work). AC 27/29


Round 2:
Cast Defensively (or draw an attack against weaker opponents) and cast protection from evil swiftly. AC 32 (2 + 3 abjuration bonus)
Full attack with expertise at least +2. AC 34

So basically if all goes well I am an AC beast (and can go as high as 37 if I want with expertise). But I fear the surprise round (or being beaten in inititive) so very very much.

[Ramza00]

Well its your character and if you want to do the least amount of spells possible its your choice, but Swashbuckler 5 is suboptimal still. Swash 3/Fighter 2 is better.

You get the same AC if you take Shield Specialization as a bonus feat with Swash 3/Fighter 1 vs Swash 5. Furthermore if you use your second feat Shield Ward you add your shield bonus (including the shield bonus from shield) to your touch ac and checks on rolls against being disarm, bull rush, grapple, overrun, trample.

[argentsaber]

while technically rogues are not gish contributive, taking 4 levels of rogue with your 3 of swashbuckler nets you 4 sneak attack dice, and the nifty option to take arcane trixterfor 7 levels after abjurant champion (not to mention evasion and uncanny dodge). Also there are literally a gazillion and a half arcane spells that let you sneak attack well/often.

[Fax Celestis]

Twilight is BOED
Feycraft I have no clue
the rest is in the SRD

Thistledown is another option instead of Feycraft, it is a "cloth" suit you wear under armor. Races of the Wild

Feycraft is in the DMG-II.

[Ikkitosen]

Swash 3 / Wiz 4 / AChamp 2 or Swash 3 / Fighter 1 / Wizard 2 / AChamp 3 would be good. Both get L3 spells, and the latter allows quickening of L2 abjurations, but the first is better in the long term (fewer lost caster levels).

[Person_Man]

Many Gish builds are notoriously bad. You suffer from:

Poor AC
Mediocre BAB/attacks per round
Mediocre hit points
less then full caster progression

So, you do nothing well, and a bunch of things poorly. Here's a simple question. What do you want to be able to do?

If you want to beat your enemies with high damage magic+melee attacks, use a Duskblade.

If you want to buff yourself with magic and then beat your enemies, use a Cleric with careful Domain choices.

If you want to be a sly Swashbuckling type that uses toolbox spells, be a Beguiler.

If you want something else, then ask. But Swash is a very weak class, and combining it with Wizard makes it even worse.

[Shatenjager]

Many Gish builds are notoriously bad. You suffer from:

Poor AC
Mediocre BAB/attacks per round
Mediocre hit points
less then full caster progression



The goal for me is really to try out this prestige class. This specific build doesn't really suffer from the problems you mentioned.

AC: Only poor before I act for the first time (as shown above). I actually was hoping someone would have a hint for how to beef it before then. But after a round it is above average for the level. And after 2 is is nigh untouchable. AC on the first round is what I believe is the one problem with this build

BAB: The build I proposed only dropped one level of BAB ending up with a +8 at level 9.

Hit points: Swashbuckler is a D10, Fighter is a D10, and I believe Abjurant Champion is either D8 or D10. There is one level of D4 wizard in there and that's it. (And I've got a CON of 14 besides).

Caster progression: Ok, sure. I'm not trying to be a caster. I'm trying to be a fighter who makes himself more effective with spells. All in all he's a 5th level wizard from a casting point of view. While it isn't an ultimate powerhouse in the arcane, he's no slouch for a dabbler. Besides if you are just going to be buffing yourself then there isn't really a problem with having a lower caster level (excluding certain things like dispel magic).

[Douglas]

I'd suggest Swash 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 3 for your initial 9 levels and ask the DM to house rule that the Abjurant Champion ability works with Mage Armor and similar spells because it was clearly intended to work that way - the writer who neglected to look up the actual school of Mage Armor went so far as to explicitly mention Mage Armor as an example. Swashbuckler 3 gets you int to damage, after which Swashbuckler has very little to offer. Fighter 1 gets a bonus feat. The second level of wizard doesn't affect your BAB and gets you another caster level, just enough to pick up Greater Mage Armor from Complete Arcane. For future levels, finish off Abjurant Champion and then go into Eldritch Knight or some other gish PrC.

[ArmorArmadillo]

I'd suggest Swash 3/Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 3 for your initial 9 levels and ask the DM to house rule that the Abjurant Champion ability works with Mage Armor and similar spells because it was clearly intended to work that way - the writer who neglected to look up the actual school of Mage Armor went so far as to explicitly mention Mage Armor as an example. Swashbuckler 3 gets you int to damage, after which Swashbuckler has very little to offer. Fighter 1 gets a bonus feat. The second level of wizard doesn't affect your BAB and gets you another caster level, just enough to pick up Greater Mage Armor from Complete Arcane. For future levels, finish off Abjurant Champion and then go into Eldritch Knight or some other gish PrC.
The abjurant champion doesn't need to be any better; also, a 5th level AbCh, if his bonuses apply both to Shield and MA, casts MA extended to last all day, then casts shield quickened for a total of +18 to AC off of 2 1st level spells. Even if it was "clearly meant to work that way," it's still way way way too powerful on a class that's already too powerful.

[Douglas]

Compare a 5th level AbCh (not possible before character level 11) to a level 12 cleric. The cleric has full plate (+8 AC), a heavy shield (+2 AC), and casts Magic Vestment on both of them for +3 more AC on each, giving a total AC bonus of +16, a mere 2 points short of your Abjurant Champion of comparable level, and he doesn't have to wait until combat and take an action then to cast any of it. How does this make Abjurant Champion overpowered?

[Fizban]

For armor, there's also Thistledown Padding, from Races of the Wild, for another -5% ASF. Can be added to any medium or heavier armor, or chain shirt. Allows for the creation of the Thistledown Padded Feycraft Mithral Chain Shirt, which non-magically has +4AC and 0% ASF.

[Deepblue706]

Many Gish builds are notoriously bad. You suffer from:

Poor AC
Mediocre BAB/attacks per round
Mediocre hit points
less then full caster progression

So, you do nothing well, and a bunch of things poorly.

Fighter 1 / Wizard 6 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 7

= 9th level spells at 19th level, two levels later than a plain ol' wizard.

BAB of 17/12/7/2, two points higher than plain ol' bard.

5.5 + (2.5 x 6) + 4.5 + (5.5 x 5) + (3.5 x 7) = 80 + CON MOD (x20) HP, on average.

AC can be troublesome unless you have a good dex score or have something like Swashbuckler levels or Combat Expertise to help you out. However, Unless you're wearing full-plate, you can eliminate just about all spell failure (actually, you might even be able to wear that too with enough adds...), so you can still wear armor to help yourself out.

Defending weapons can also assist in that department, as well as having Shield prepared (thanks AbjuChamp!).

Taking all of this into account, I wouldn't say it's bad. I mean, this build still has access to Wish pre-epic, and the player still gets to say "Wee! I have a sword!". Can't exactly tank, but their vesatility can help them deal with greater opponents later on (flying enemies aren't as much a problem if you can fly too...etc). Yeah, you still can't take all that many hits, but I can't imagine you'd be taken out in a single round, either, if you play it smart. Feats like Improved Toughness can always be taken, just in case, too.

Truly, I can think of many worse ways to go. Surely some gishes can be absolutely horrible, but I think if you plan it out right, it can be pretty darn neat.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Compare a 5th level AbCh (not possible before character level 11) to a level 12 cleric. The cleric has full plate (+8 AC), a heavy shield (+2 AC), and casts Magic Vestment on both of them for +3 more AC on each, giving a total AC bonus of +16, a mere 2 points short of your Abjurant Champion of comparable level, and he doesn't have to wait until combat and take an action then to cast any of it. How does this make Abjurant Champion overpowered?
So, you're saying that the ability wouldn't be too powerful, because in 2 swift spells an unarmored level 11 character can gain a better ability than a level 12 cleric (who most people consider to be overpowered) requires 2 spells, a suit of full plate, and a heavy shield to get?

Not a very good standard.

[Douglas]

Two swift spells, one of which has to be cast once for every single battle, with a character that is four levels behind in spell progression, vs a single-classed character in a core class with equipment of negligible cost who has full spellcasting and only has to cast his two spells once to cover the entire day. My example is just a demonstration that it is trivial to get an AC very close to the Abjurant Champion's with just core, no cheese, little resource expenditure, and some powerful advantages. If I actually put significant effort into it or asked the character optimization board for suggestions, I'm sure I could surpass that by a large margin without using blatant cheese or Abjurant Champion.

[Zincorium]

As far as BAB goes: you don't lose an additional point beyond the first by taking a full 4 levels of wizard, so that's not a bad bet. Yes, you lose some HP, but with the AC from Abjurant Champion that's not as big a deal as for a conventional frontliner.

2nd best Gish class besides Abjurant Champion is the Knight Phantom from Eberron Five Nations book, you lose one level of spellcasting like eldritch knight, but you get one size bigger HD, it is full BAB, and you get to ignore spell failure for light armor, which can be improved with battlecaster to let you wear mithril full plate, as well as a few other useful abilities. Well worth all 10 levels.

Bladesinger is even better than Spellsword for a single level dip if you can meet the prerequisites, and there's nothing stopping you from taking both.

Basically, you'll lose for sure 1 BAB and Swashbuckler levels +1 of spellcasting, so the smart thing to do is reduce the number of swashbuckler levels as much as possible, or my preferred solution, take one or two levels of warblade instead. That'll leave you with decent spellcasting.

[Ikkitosen]

Battle Sorc 4 / Paladin 2 / AbCh... is also a good build to consider for a primarily melee gish. Spontaneous charisma casting, cha to saves, cast in light armour (add battlecaster) so you don't need to houserule the mage armour thing, etc.

[Shatenjager]

The 2 builds I see as reasonable are Swash 3/Fighter 2/Wizard 1/Ab Champ 3 which has the benefit of getting me enough feats to have elusive target and mobility as well as the above mentioned feats. Or Swash 3/Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/Ab Champ 3 for another casting level (without loosing BAB which I did not notice). So basically I have the question of which is better probably 3 hitpoints and elusive target or a spell casting level (which brings me to level 3 spells). The option seems pretty clear. More wizard it is.

I'm gonna assume that Improved Mage Armor has a similar duration to mage armor. Meaning that my base 15 AC will become a base 21 (or 17 flat footed), which doesn't suck too bad.

As far as mage armor being houseruled. First of all it isn't gonna happen in this campaign. The group loves RAW much to much. The only thing arguing points like this gets is the thing disallowed. Second of all I don't think Mage armor was intended to be improved by the class. They certainly don't need it after you stack shield and prot evil on youself. It is a long lasting spell though, and that's probably what they are talking about. Not it's usability with that class feature, but it's importance to the class.

[Jimp]

How many books do you need for that?

This is the single greatest quote in all of optimising history.

[Douglas]

Second of all I don't think Mage armor was intended to be improved by the class. They certainly don't need it after you stack shield and prot evil on youself. It is a long lasting spell though, and that's probably what they are talking about. Not it's usability with that class feature, but it's importance to the class.
Mage Armor is explicitly mentioned in an example in the description of the Abjurant Armor ability. That by itself is a pretty strong indicator that it was intended to work that way. Also, if you scroll down a few pages to the example character, you will see that he has Mage Armor on his spells known with a footnote that it's already been cast, and his stat block shows a +9 armor bonus - exactly what Mage Armor would give him if Abjurant Armor did affect it, and Mage Armor is the only source of an armor bonus that he's got. Considering that this is instead of wearing full plate for a class intended for the kind of characters that are supposed to get up in front and take some hits and even +1 full plate would be trivially cheap at that level and match the bonus by itself, I really don't see how it would be overpowered.

Protection From Evil gives a deflection bonus, which is not improved by the Abjurant Armor ability.

[ArmorArmadillo]

+1 Ful Plate also incurs a very large Arcane Spell Failure possibility. And also, 4,000 gold is not trivially cheap compared with 0 gold.

I'm sure that the person building this class may have been thinking of Mage Armor, but it still improves the class way too significantly, which is a problem considering that the class already is one of the most significantly overpowered that ever existed.

[Shisumo]

+the class already is one of the most significantly overpowered that ever existed.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that bit during this whole discussion. The class, by its fluff, is intended for Full BAB types to dip into, but its requirements can be met by any 10th level elven arcanist with Combat Casting, and it has almost literally no downsides. The only thing you give up in taking it is the chance to progress in some other, presumably even more broken, PrC.

I've been thinking about how to alter the prerequisites to reinforce the fighter-dip idea more. Here are some changes that might help to balance the class:

* add "any three feats from the fighter bonus feat list" to the Feats requirement
* change the weapon proficiency requirement to "proficient with all martial weapons"
* change the BAB minimum to +6
* add a new prerequisite: "Base Fort save: +5"

[Ikkitosen]

It's true that an elven wiz 10 can meet the pre-reqs, but AbjCh isn't as good as IotSV or Incantatrix or Archmage so don't worry. I think most people that take AbjCh are gishes, maybe Pal 2 / BSorc 4 or similar, and they have already lost enough power via lost caster levels to not be too much of a worry. Yes, it's a very powerful PrC, and if I were re-writing D&D I might tone it down, but against a backdrop of other, much more powerful classes I don't think it's too much of an issue.

[ArmorArmadillo]

It's true that an elven wiz 10 can meet the pre-reqs, but AbjCh isn't as good as IotSV or Incantatrix or Archmage so don't worry. I think most people that take AbjCh are gishes, maybe Pal 2 / BSorc 4 or similar, and they have already lost enough power via lost caster levels to not be too much of a worry. Yes, it's a very powerful PrC, and if I were re-writing D&D I might tone it down, but against a backdrop of other, much more powerful classes I don't think it's too much of an issue.
This is the unfortunate reality of power-creep;
You make a new class more powerful because Archmage is too good;
You make AbCh more powerful because your new class is too good;
You make a new class more powerful because AbCh is too good...

This class is too powerful, because there is really no reason that anyone who meets the pre-reqs would not want to take the class. If another PrC is more powerful, than that is even more broken than this one.

[Rigeld2]

AbjCh came out very recently... more recently than IotSV, or Incant, or Archmage. Theres no creep there - AbjCh just isnt worth it to a primary spellcaster.

[Noneoyabizzness]

why not? any elven spellcaster can qualify for it and get benefits that are worth the cost of admission.
going straight wizard, you get an extra feat, and save a feat.
going abjurant champ, you get many benefits to protection buffs and a better Bab, more hp, and blah blah blah

it doesn't fit many character archtypes though.
course archmage/master spec builds are also plenty of fun.

[ArmorArmadillo]

You can still take Archmage after taking several levels in AbCh;
Even then, the fact that other PrCs are even more broken than AbCh doesn't make the AbCh a balanced class.

[Fax Celestis]

Wiz 5/Iot7FV 7/AbjCh 5/Arch 3: Untouchable.

[Douglas]

You can't qualify for any of those with straight wizard until Wiz 9.

[Fax Celestis]

You can't qualify for any of those with straight wizard until Wiz 9.

Ah, well, I'm AFB. I do make mistakes. Perhaps Wiz 9/Iot7FV 7/AbCh 4 then?

[Ikkitosen]

This is the unfortunate reality of power-creep;
You make a new class more powerful because Archmage is too good;
You make AbCh more powerful because your new class is too good;
You make a new class more powerful because AbCh is too good...

This class is too powerful, because there is really no reason that anyone who meets the pre-reqs would not want to take the class. If another PrC is more powerful, than that is even more broken than this one.

Yep, I agree. I wasn't making the cleric argument ("that's not broken, it's not as good as the cleric"), just giving my opinion on why these classes might get past WotC's excuse for playtesters/balancers.

[Fax Celestis]

Yep, I agree. I wasn't making the cleric argument ("that's not broken, it's not as good as the cleric"), just giving my opinion on why these classes might get past WotC's excuse for playtesters/balancers.

You assume they have them.