poison

[person29]

Last night our party encountered a group of assassins (assassin stat from Monster Manual). They get 2 shortsword attacks with 7d6 poison damage per round.

Do they get that poison damage on each attack every round? I know in previous editions one would need to "apply" a poison to a weapon and that application would last one hit.

If the assassins in question do get the poison damage on every attack...would it work the same for a character? I spend 2,000gp on dragon bile (I think) to do an extra 12d6 damage on every weapon attack (if they fail a save...half if they make it)....forever?

We looked through the PHB and DMG and couldn't find anything about poison application/uses per dose etc

Thanks for your help

[GiantOctopodes]

Each attack every round for a minute. Note that Wyvern Venom (the 7d6 poison they had) costs 1200 Gold per Dose, so if both of them were using that, it represented 2400 Gold worth of equipment consumed in trying to assassinate you. How large, exactly, is the bounty on you guys?

It specifies the poison lasts for a minute when exposed on the weapon before it loses it potency. Purple Worm Poison is the one you want for 12d6 at 2000 Gold, but since it only lasts 10 rounds, I'd recommend worrying more about getting a renewable supply of something than blowing all your wealth on a one time effect. Go capture or purchase a Giant Poisonous Snake and milk it for all it's worth, 3d6 on every attack is nothing to sneeze at, and once you have unlimited poison, it becomes relatively simple to be somewhat wasteful with it, and you can talk to your DM about getting envenomed sheathes for your weapons, so when you draw them the poison is already applied and the time starts counting down from that point. Most combat does not last 10 rounds, but if it does, you can always manually reapply.

[person29]

Each attack every round for a minute. Note that Wyvern Venom (the 7d6 poison they had) costs 1200 Gold per Dose, so if both of them were using that, it represented 2400 Gold worth of equipment consumed in trying to assassinate you. How large, exactly, is the bounty on you guys?

It specifies the poison lasts for a minute when exposed on the weapon before it loses it potency. Purple Worm Poison is the one you want for 12d6 at 2000 Gold, but since it only lasts 10 rounds, I'd recommend worrying more about getting a renewable supply of something than blowing all your wealth on a one time effect. Go capture or purchase a Giant Poisonous Snake and milk it for all it's worth, 3d6 on every attack is nothing to sneeze at, and once you have unlimited poison, it becomes relatively simple to be somewhat wasteful with it, and you can talk to your DM about getting envenomed sheathes for your weapons, so when you draw them the poison is already applied and the time starts counting down from that point. Most combat does not last 10 rounds, but if it does, you can always manually reapply.


Would you mind pointing me in the direction of where you found all that info? I couldn't find anything in the books (about it lasting a minute), but its possible I was blind with rage.

It was actually more of an accident...they were being ***** and they killed an npc in front of us that didn't want to be pushed around by them....so we fought, and should have TPK'd with the actual rules, but we complained and our DM agreed the poison wore off after 1 attack (which is what we knew from 3.5)

[Jeraa]

Would you mind pointing me in the direction of where you found all that info? I couldn't find anything in the books (about it lasting a minute), but its possible I was blind with rage.

It was actually more of an accident...they were being ***** and they killed an npc in front of us that didn't want to be pushed around by them....so we fought, and should have TPK'd with the actual rules, but we complained and our DM agreed the poison wore off after 1 attack (which is what we knew from 3.5)

The description of basic poison in the player's Handbook equipment chapter (page 153). The other poisons are in the Dungeon Masters Guide (page 257), but there is no mention of duration besides the one entry in the Player's Handbook.


Poison, Basic. You can use the poison in this vial to coat one slashing or piercing weapon or up to three pieces of ammunition. Applying the poison takes an action. A creature hit by the poisoned weapon or ammunition must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or take 1d4 poison damage. Once applied, the poison retains potency for 1 minute before drying.

[Rowan Wolf]

Would you mind pointing me in the direction of where you found all that info? I couldn't find anything in the books (about it lasting a minute), but its possible I was blind with rage.

It was actually more of an accident...they were being ***** and they killed an npc in front of us that didn't want to be pushed around by them....so we fought, and should have TPK'd with the actual rules, but we complained and our DM agreed the poison wore off after 1 attack (which is what we knew from 3.5)

I really need to take a look at that as it would make using poison at range a huge expense, comparing to melee

[GiantOctopodes]

I really need to take a look at that as it would make using poison at range a huge expense, comparing to melee

Yeah, it allows 3 pieces of ranged ammo to be coated with one dose, but even still, it's not even close to comparable cost wise. Me personally, I'm working with my DM to have whole quivers constructed to automatically poison ammo put inside, but we'll see how that goes...

[The Shadowdove]

Find a way to permanency a spell on a poison gland to keep it alive/functioning!

[Kane0]

Find a way to permanency a spell on a poison gland to keep it alive/functioning!

Try Preserve Organ, import it as a level 1 necromancy ritual that lasts 24 hours.

[person29]

So...the Assassin from the Monster Manual. Would you always have it deal the poison damage? Only the first 10 rounds of combat? Would an assassin need to spend the first round of combat applying the poison?

When applying poison, do you play that it lasts for one minute from application or one minute (10 rounds) from first attempted use/beginning of combat?

[Dalebert]

When applying poison, do you play that it lasts for one minute from application or one minute (10 rounds) from first attempted use/beginning of combat?

The quote from the PHB says it dries after a minute from application so it's nothing to do with combat. That would be a house rule. I think it's intended to cost in both gp and actions in order to not be too good.

Can an unseen servant apply poison to something for you?

[person29]

The quote from the PHB says it dries after a minute from application so it's nothing to do with combat. That would be a house rule. I think it's intended to cost in both gp and actions in order to not be too good.

Can an unseen servant apply poison to something for you?

So for a "monster" or npc such as the assassin in the monster manual...since the poison damage is listed in their attack with their stat block, would you rule that they need to apply it before hand or they always do the poison damage since it is listed in their block as such, and their Challenge/xp is calculated based partly on that damage output?

[pwykersotz]

So question: The Alchemy jug produces "basic poison". Which poison would that be?

[Jeraa]

So question: The Alchemy jug produces "basic poison". Which poison would that be?

The poison that is listed in the Player's Handbook equipment chapter, which is called basic poison. I quoted it above, but will do so again:


Poison, Basic. You can use the poison in this vial to coat one slashing or piercing weapon or up to three pieces of ammunition. Applying the poison takes an action. A creature hit by the poisoned weapon or ammunition must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or take 1d4 poison damage. Once applied, the poison retains potency for 1 minute before drying.

[pwykersotz]

The poison that is listed in the Player's Handbook equipment chapter, which is called basic poison. I quoted it above, but will do so again:

Huh...I had completely failed to find that. Thank you!

[Dalebert]

So for a "monster" or npc such as the assassin in the monster manual...since the poison damage is listed in their attack with their stat block, would you rule that they need to apply it before hand or they always do the poison damage since it is listed in their block as such, and their Challenge/xp is calculated based partly on that damage output?

Not for a monster that has natural poison but if it's a normal humanoid assassin, then presumably it would follow standard poison rules.

[Justin Sane]

I'd rule (as in, educated guess to RAI) poisoned weapons only deal the poison damage once, the one-minute restriction represents the time before the poison dries out or goes inert.

[Person_Man]

The availability of poison and other usable items (healing potions, caltrops, healer's kits, etc) as treasure can go a long way towards making the Thief Rogue (which can Use an Item as a Bonus Action) a lot better. (In particular, a Thief Rogue with the Healer Feat and access to many healing potions and kits is a useful backup healer). On the flip side, if the DM rarely hands such stuff out, the Thief Rogue is a lot weaker, since they'd always have to spend their own gp on it.

I try and tread the middle ground on such things. I give my humanoid NPCs the equipment you would expect them to carry, including a few extras if it makes sense. If they know or suspect that the PCs are more powerful then they are, then yeah, they use the 1,200 gp poison, because they don't want to die. And then the PCs get to keep the extra dose or two the NPCs were carrying as treasure, as a reward for defeating enemies that used such a powerful poison against them. (Same deal with poisunus monsters. PCs have to survive it, if they do, they can squeeze out a dose or two from their glands). But if the PCs just stumble across some random assassins, then the assassins probably won't use the expensive poison unless they clearly think they're going to die and have time to apply the poison, because its expensive, and I assume the assassins are rational.

[person29]

Without giving too much away this specific encounter with the 4 assassins was in Hoard of the Dragon Queen

[Feldarove]

Everyone has a Monster Manual right?

Please flip to the back of the book and look at the CR 8 assassin and comment on how you believe the poison listed in its stat block is intended to work.

From what it looks like, it is always doing that poison damage.

But, its a humanoid, using a weapon, so we seem to be assuming its applying poison. (Which then enters the debate of how poison works).

I would say that since its a CR 8, it always does that poison damage. It doesn't have much in the way of defense abilities, so its kind of a Glass Cannon.

As a DM, with regards to poison. I would say that you get one use of poison per application, however, it last for 1 minute, before becoming ineffective.

I think the coating of 3 pieces of ammunition comes from the thought that, if I miss with my rapier, I get to attack with it again, if I miss with my arrow, its gone.

[Slipperychicken]

The availability of poison and other usable items (healing potions, caltrops, healer's kits, etc) as treasure can go a long way towards making the Thief Rogue (which can Use an Item as a Bonus Action) a lot better. (In particular, a Thief Rogue with the Healer Feat and access to many healing potions and kits is a useful backup healer). On the flip side, if the DM rarely hands such stuff out, the Thief Rogue is a lot weaker, since they'd always have to spend their own gp on it.

Fighters and rangers could use their large number of attacks to potentially benefit more from poison. In particular, a fighter could use action surge to essentially cancel out the action spent on applying a poison, and a champion fighter's increased critical chance would synergize well with bonus damage dice. If the fighter had a chance to apply the poison right before combat, he could make his action surge particularly devastating by making a lot of attacks with bonus damage.

[GiantOctopodes]

I'd rule (as in, educated guess to RAI) poisoned weapons only deal the poison damage once, the one-minute restriction represents the time before the poison dries out or goes inert.

that would not fit with the whole "1 weapon or 3 pieces of ammunition" bit, though. Otherwise, if the poison only lasts one hit, beyond the obvious question (why not specify that), it begs the far more relevant question of why allow for 3 pieces of ammo instead of just one melee weapon? My presumption has been to help balance out exactly that- accounting for multiple attacks to allow ranged weapons to keep pace with the performance of martial weapons. Do you see any reason to believe otherwise?

[Justin Sane]

That would not fit with the whole "1 weapon or 3 pieces of ammunition" bit, though.One dose of poison coats one weapon or three pieces of ammo.
Otherwise, if the poison only lasts one hit, beyond the obvious question (why not specify that), it begs the far more relevant question of why allow for 3 pieces of ammo instead of just one melee weapon?If your attack with the poisoned rapier misses, you can try again next round. If your poisoned arrow misses, let's hope you tied it with some string to recover it :smalltongue:
My presumption has been to help balance out exactly that- accounting for multiple attacks to allow ranged weapons to keep pace with the performance of martial weapons. Do you see any reason to believe otherwise?Well, I see it as one sure hit versus three possible ones. Considering the Archery Style has an accuracy boost, I don't think it's a bad trade-off.

That said, this is all IMHO, and at no point I claim to be right :smallsmile: It's a s how I remember poison working in 3.5, but it might be how my group house-ruled it at the time.

[The Shadowdove]

Is ammunition, in general, destroyed upon use like in earlier editions?

[Justin Sane]

Is ammunition, in general, destroyed upon use like in earlier editions?Half of it, hit or miss (PHB 106, Ammunition weapon property).

[Person_Man]

Fighters and rangers could use their large number of attacks to potentially benefit more from poison. In particular, a fighter could use action surge to essentially cancel out the action spent on applying a poison, and a champion fighter's increased critical chance would synergize well with bonus damage dice. If the fighter had a chance to apply the poison right before combat, he could make his action surge particularly devastating by making a lot of attacks with bonus damage.

Agreed. Though in the games I've played, most combats tend to last only a 1-3 rounds, including most boss fights where you'd reasonably consider using poison. (Though the spellcasters are smart enough to hold back on their spells unless they really need them, and we haven't gotten to the point where enemies have Legendary Actions yet. So I'm assuming that this situation will change soon). So in my current games, if I was a Fighter I'd only take an Action to apply poison right before combat, as you suggest, because it probably wouldn't be worth doing in a short combat.

On a related note, I know that Assassin Rogue 7/Fighter 5+ (or similar variations) is a popular-ish multi-class option on the boards, because Rogue lacks any standout signature abilities between levels 8-16. (Though I would argue that the damage progression often ends up being a wash). This thread has got me thinking that Thief Rogue with a Fighter dip might be worth looking at, assuming that you have a DM that liberal with handing out useful poison/equipment/etc. Or even just a DM that lets you use downtime to craft a reasonable amount of poison and other stuff.

Speaking just for myself, I'd still allow the Thief to use Fast Hands with magic items, even though Mearls has specifically said that was not his intent. Most magic items that require activation have limited charges, and it encourages the player to stick with Thief Rogue in order to get Use Magic Device at level 13.

[HPisBS]

So question: The Alchemy jug produces "basic poison". Which poison would that be?


Huh...I had completely failed to find that. Thank you!

My question is: How much poison is in that vial? Is it the full 4 ounces that a standard vial can hold, or is it less than that?

(Need to know how many days it takes to get a useable quantity of poison)

[ShikomeKidoMi]

So...the Assassin from the Monster Manual. Would you always have it deal the poison damage? Only the first 10 rounds of combat? Would an assassin need to spend the first round of combat applying the poison?

When applying poison, do you play that it lasts for one minute from application or one minute (10 rounds) from first attempted use/beginning of combat?

I think the basic assumption is that the assassins have applied poison some time a couple rounds before combat started (and then are going to attempt to sneak up on players). Because they're assassins and DMs should use other templates for things like guards who the players can sneak up on.

Most fights aren't going to last long enough for the exact duration to matter, but if lasts more than 10 rounds, you can always make them reapply it. Though I question how you got a fight against Assassins to last more than 10 rounds.

[Ursus the Grim]

NPCs with Poisoned weapons always deal that damage. Its listed no differently than Monster Poison. There's nothing in the Assassin entry referencing 'prep time' or 'limited usage' and there's precedent for the latter when the MM intends there to be such.

I also think we're being a little too generous with PC poisons.


Injury: Injury poison can be applied to Weapons, ammunition, trap Components, and other Objects that deal piercing or slashing damage and remains potent until delivered through a wound or washed off. A creature that takes piercing or slashing damage from an object coated with the poison is exposed to its effects.


Basic Poison: You can use the poison in this vial to coat one slashing or piercing weapon or up to three pieces of ammunition. Applying the poison takes an action. A creature hit by the Poisoned weapon or ammunition must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or take 1d4 poison damage. Once applied, the poison retains potency for 1 minute before drying.

Emphases mine. All injury poisons lose potency once delivered. Basic poisons lose potency after a minute if not delivered. Unless you have a reliable way of getting poison for free, its generally not worth it as a PC. In any event, you're not applying Purple Worm poison on every hit for ten rounds.

Edit: Also, holy hell, that necro.

[ad_hoc]

NPCs don't use the same rules as PCs.

It's as simple as that.

Also, as has been noted, the dose lasts a minute before drying, but once you use the dose it is gone. You don't get infinite doses with an application of basic poison.