playing with a min max dm

[deacon stark]

Starting new game with a new dm. He's usually the min maxer player in our group. Need help with build.

Starting with
10 lev
drow /path finder no -lev loss
wiz
all books ( except dragon mag, ebberon and pathfinder
32 point buy
+ 2 free feats
49000 gp ( no more than 1/2 on on magic item)


I have played the hell out of the battle control and summoner .looking for a damage build that can be fun and not die in the first incouter


Any and all help would be appreciated .

[OldTrees1]

More detail on the min-maxer and their normal optimization level would be helpful.

Also do you use the Pathfinder base classes or the 3.5 base classes when applicable?

[deacon stark]

3.5 base classes
as far as the new dm , every CHARACTER he's played has been optimized . And am guessing every encounter going to be tough.

Dont have access to the books he has .so was I was looking for what. Prestige class , spells.magic items and like .

[OldTrees1]

3.5 base classes
as far as the new dm , every CHARACTER he's played has been optimized . And am guessing every encounter going to be tough.

Dont have access to the books he has .so was I was looking for what. Prestige class , spells.magic items and like .

Optimization is a continuum. Even choosing Power Attack over Weapon Specialization is a form of optimization. The question is how much do they expect you to optimize. This is best answered by examples of how much they have optimized in the past. After all, you don't want to overshoot it.

[eggynack]

If you're after optimized magical damage, I would advise reading through the mailman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392222-playing-with-a-min-max-dm). It's a build that uses sorcerer as a base rather than wizard, and might be a bit too optimal even for a game with an optimization loving DM, but the basic ideas at work there, particularly heavy metamagic reduction applied to orbs, pretty broadly apply to the general concepts at work behind good blaster builds.

[deacon stark]

I'm not looking for an over the top CHARACTER that has 5 different classes or prestige classes in 10 lev . Just a godd solid drow wizard that can deal some damage . Not having access to books like underdark ,unearthed arcane, complete mage.and all the other books .I just didn't know if I was missing out on anything useful .

[The Grue]

Again, without some concrete examples we have no idea what constitutes "over the top" versus merely competent in the context of your gaming group.

[deacon stark]

Just looked at the mailman .but incantatrix looks out of CHARACTER for a drow wizard that worships ( not sure of spelling ) lothe. Or I could be wrong. I dont know

[OldTrees1]

Just looked at the mailman .but incantatrix looks out of CHARACTER for a drow wizard that worships ( not sure of spelling ) lothe. Or I could be wrong. I dont know

Honestly you could probably just go straight wizard. Just pick up some metamagic feats like Quicken Spell, Chain Spell and Twin Spell along with feats that reduce the cost of those feats. Metamagic School Focus (Complete Mage, page 45) and Arcane Thesis(Complete Arcane) should do nicely.

I would focus your wealth on defensive items and a Headband of Int +4.

PS: Lloth(pronounced LOALTH) has a few different spellings including lolth.

[eggynack]

I'm not looking for an over the top CHARACTER that has 5 different classes or prestige classes in 10 lev . Just a godd solid drow wizard that can deal some damage . Not having access to books like underdark ,unearthed arcane, complete mage.and all the other books .I just didn't know if I was missing out on anything useful .
As I said, you don't have to copy and paste the entire build over. Take what you think you'll need, and leave the rest. The basic principle at work here is a relatively unconditional spell, which in this case would be an orb of fire, boosted by a large quantity of metamagic, which in turn is made possible through the use of metamagic reduction. For a more general guide to metamagic, you should look here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0). However, gotta say, if you don't have all of the books, then you likely shouldn't list that you have all books aside from a few exceptions.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Level 10, 3.5 classes, Wizard, damage dealer.....
It looks like you indicated your character will be a Drow with no level adjustment? If this is not the case, if you would have to take the +2 LA and start with eight class levels, make a Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) instead and/or just use those stats and still call it a Drow.

Specialize in Conjuration, with Evocation and Enchantment prohibited. You'll start with Incantatrix which gives you another prohibited school, which will be Necromancy.

Start out Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 5, plan to max Incantatrix and then probably get Paragnostic Apostle. As a specialist Conjurer, trade your class-granted familiar for Abrupt Jaunt in PH2. Get the Elf Wizard 3 substitution level, it's still useful for gaining Search as a class skill.

Use the Fighter feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) which replaces Scribe Scroll and your Wizard 5 bonus feats with Fighter bonus feats at the same levels. Get Improved Initiative at 1st and replace your 5th level bonus feat with the Planning domain power per the ACF in Complete Champion to get Extend Spell.

Say you visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel, which costs 3,000 gp and gets you Iron Will without spending a feat on it.

Your two bonus metamagic feats from Incantatrix should be Persistent Spell and Fell Drain Spell. Good metamagic feat choices for later on include Invisible Spell and Quicken Spell.

You still have four general feats to choose, plus the two bonus feats he's giving out, plus two more feats if you're allowed to take flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)). Note that flaws must be taken 'when creating a character' so since you're creating this character at 10th level, those flaws can give you feats that you wouldn't have qualified for at 1st level.

Your 3rd level feat should definitely be Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), and you'll have invested every skill point you gained from 4th level and up into it for the greatest return. This will give you something like +10 to Spellcraft starting out, and it will increase up to your current ranks later on, which you need for your Incantatrix abilities. The Item Familiar can be a ring which you wear a glove or gauntlet over so opponents never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it directly or slight of hand it. An item familiar is an intelligent item which is regarded as a construct, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and they continue to function in antimagic or dead magic areas, though such effects can temporarily suppress the benefits you gain from that feat. As an intelligent item an Item Familiar gains actions every round in combat, and it can use its actions to activate its own abilities, so for example if it's a Ring of Invisibility it can turn you invisible every round right after your turn is over, though that particular effect won't be necessary for this character. You can upgrade it yourself, including adding custom properties, so for example a Competence bonus to a skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) costs (bonus squared) x 100 gp, but costs 50% more if added to an existing item (see the armor properties such as Slick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#slick)), and the bonus can go as high as +30 pre-epic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm). You can upgrade it yourself, so you pay half the cost in gold and 1/25 the cost in XP, but don't forget it also gives you a 10% bonus to all current and future XP so you should still be ahead of the rest of the party.

Incantatrix (the most current version in Player's Guide to Faerun) gives you the Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect abilities. Cooperative Metamagic can be used on your own spells when you're not in combat, since the action economy system only exists during initiative. You can take ten on the Spellcraft checks to use these abilities. Your highest level spells starting out will be 5th, so adding Persistent Spell to one of those via these abilities is a DC 51 check. With 13 ranks, +10 for the Item Familiar, +6 for Int, +2 synergy, +2 masterwork tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) (quick reference card), you'll have a +33. Taking ten gives you a result of 43, so a +8 Competence bonus on your Item Familiar (6,400 gp base price) allows you to always succeed in this. That DC goes up by three per spell level increase, so next level you'll need to make a DC 54 check to persist 6th level spells. Your ranks will go up by one, and your bonus from the Item Familiar's invested skill ranks should go up by at least two, so you'll probably never need more than a +8 on your Item Familiar for this purpose. However, you may want to use multiple metamagic feats on a single spell, including Persistent Spell, which would drive the DC higher, so I would plan on starting with as high a Competence bonus to Spellcraft on your Item Familiar as possible.

You have at least five general feats remaining. I would get Obtain Familiar for a Hummingbird from Dragon issue 323, which uses the Thrush stats and gives you +4 initiative. Check with your DM on whether the Elf Wizard 3 substitution level would double this. That substitution level specifies that it doubles the bonus to skill checks, saves, or hit points your familiar grants, but all books were printed assuming your only other books are the core rulebooks, and those are the only types of bonuses a PHB familiar grants. Another option would be to take Improved Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar) for an Imp, Quasit, or Pseudodragon depending on your alignment.

Other feats can include even more metamagic feats that will help with your particular gimmick. If you want a feat that requires you to have another metamagic feat before taking it, you can move Fell Drain Spell to 1st level and put another metamagic feat at Incantatrix 4. Particularly useful feats include Flash Frost Spell (along with Snowcasting), Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, Fell Frighten Spell, and possibly Born of the Three Thunders and its prerequisites, depending on how your DM rules it. If your DM rules that the Three Thunders effects happen at the time the spell deals damage (potentially multiple times over multiple rounds), then you'll want to have it. If he carefully reads it and decides that the effects happen at the spell's conclusion, i.e. when the spell's duration ends if it's not instantaneous, then this feat is of no use to you.

You're going to use your Incantatrix abilities to add Persistent Spell and other metamagic feats to spells that allow you to deal damage. Specifically, you'll be using it with Cloud of Knives in PH2 (multiple times if possible), Dragon Breath in SC, Thunderlance in SC, Fire Shield (twice) from the PHB, and anything else you can find with a similar effect. You're also going to be using those abilities to add Persistent Spell to buffs like Magic Circle Against Evil, Greater Invisibility, Shield, Ray Deflection, etc. You'll also want to use Fell Drain Spell on most of those, so that the first time each spell damages a creature it also inflicts a negative level. Fell Frighten inflicts or escalates the Shaken condition on a creature the first time it's damaged by a given spell, so for example using it with Fire Shield twice (hot and cold versions) makes it so when a creature attacks you in melee they're automatically Shaken > Frightened if they take damage from both of those, and will have to flee instead of continuing to attack you.

If you can cast Cloud of Knives multiple times and make each one Fell Drain and Persistent, then you should do so. Some DMs may rule that you can only have it active from one casting, since it's a buff on yourself, in which case you can use Twin Spell and Repeat Spell to make that one casting active four times. You can also share that with your familiar, doubling the number of Fell Drain Cloud of Knives you have active. Each instance of that gives you a free-action dagger attack every round, and the first time each one hits a given creature they'll gain a negative level as well.

Dragon Breath can be used with Snowcasting, Energy Substitution: Electric, and Born of the Three Thunders so that every time you use the breath attack everything damaged by it will be stunned and knocked prone, assuming you get a favorable ruling from your DM. You only get dazed by Born of the Three Thunders the round after you cast the spell, not each time you use the breath attack. You can use the spell Summon Component in Complete Mage (or get a few Eternal Wands in MIC) to provide the snow for Snowcasting if necessary.

With Thunderlance you'll want Combat Reflexes due to its reach. You may also want to use Snowcasting, Energy Substitution: Electric, and Born of the Three Thunders with that, since a favorable ruling on that will make you force a target to save vs being stunned and knocked prone every time you hit with it. Throw on Fell Drain and Fell Frighten regardless, and don't forget that you can put (Extended) Greater Magic Weapon on it.

There's yet one more extremely powerful trick that may not entirely work, depending on how your DM rules things. You can say you hired and NPC Psion for a Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) to repick some feats so you don't even need to have all the feats required for this trick when you begin play, just say you had them at the time you cast this. Use Heighten Spell, Snowcasting, Flash Frost Spell, Energy Substitution: Electric, Born of the Three Thunders, Widen Spell, Fell Drain, and Fell Frighten with Detect Magic, and use Permanency to make that spell permanent on you. Whenever you concentrate on that spell, you make a 120-ft. cone that deals electric and sonic damage to everything in its path, puts a layer of frost on the area, makes everything damaged by it shaken, gain a negative level, and save vs being stunned and knocked prone. You can concentrate on it as a swift action with the Swift Concentration skill trick in Complete Scoundrel, but skill tricks are usable only once per encounter. A creature will only be shaken and gain a negative level the first time they're damaged by it, and the Born of the Three Thunders effect may only trigger when the spell ends (i.e. gets dismissed or dispelled), depending on your DM's ruling, but it's still an extremely useful trick to be able to turn that on at will.

[deacon stark]

Holy. Crap thats alot to digest . I'm not complaining by the way. And thanks to you and all you guys.

[The Grue]

As an aside, why do you spell "character" in all capitals? The added emphasis reads as though you are shouting it.

[eggynack]

As an aside, why do you spell "character" in all capitals? The added emphasis reads as though you are shouting it.
Huh. I had assumed the OP was just using broadly aberrant capitalization, but it does oddly appear to be limited to that one word. I gots nothin'.

[deacon stark]

Just a typo
or you could take it that all his CHARACTER are large and in charge .

[eggynack]

Just a typo
or you could take it that all his CHARACTER are large and in charge .
It seems odd that you would make the same exact typo three separate times in three separate posts. The second thing is vaguely more plausible.

[deacon stark]

Look at metamagic school focus and arcane thesis . Looks good.

Question on those
1) arcane thesis
Does that mean a enlarged, extended, silent , stilled, sculpted scorching ray is still 2nd lev
2) metamagic stack with arcane thesis? So maximized(+3) extended(+1) would be a +2

[eggynack]

1) arcane thesis
Does that mean a enlarged, extended, silent , stilled, sculpted scorching ray is still 2nd lev
2) metamagic stack with arcane thesis? So maximized(+3) extended(+1) would be a +2
Yes and yes. Notably, as is likely pointed out in those links, a +0 metamagic like invisible spell will actually reduce the total spell level when used in conjunction with other metamagic. You can't drop the whole thing below zero, but an invisible maximized scorching ray would go down to level three, as opposed to level four without invisible spell.

[deacon stark]

Just tp get this straight a invisible, energy substitute x, quicken scorching ray 3rd

[Jeff the Green]

Check out Metamagic and You (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=972.0). In particular, Residual Metamagic and Empowered Spellshard can help a blaster at various different stages of their career. Another one not mentioned is Eldritch Corruption, from Heroes of Horror. You have to have moderate depravity to use it (though unlike other tainted feats you don't get extra bonuses for being severely depraved), but it lets you add Extend, Heighten (for +2), Enlarge, or Widen (or any number of the four) for free 3/day for the low, low price of 2 Constitution damage to an ally per effect added. Just grab a friend with Naberius or a couple Rods of Bodily Restoration to cure the damage. It requires permission from the DM to have taint, obviously.


Take what you think you'll need, and leave the rest.

But never take the very best.

...I'll leave now.

[RoboEmperor]

Go a less optimized mailman. This is what you do.

1. Go wizard (sorcerer if you don't mind less metamagic, or is not going archmage and gonna risk it with energy substitution: acid)
2. Go archmage and get mastery of shaping and mastery of elements
3. Grab arcane thesis: Orb of Fire, maybe arcane thesis: fireball
4. Grab residual magic
5. Grab twin spell, maximize spell, repeat spell and empower spell.
6. Throw a twinned empowered repeated orb of fire, next turn, throw a maximized empowered repeated orb of fire, who is also twinned thanks to residual magic. Keep alternating twin and maximize. You'll be doing 15 x 6 x 1.5 x 2 x 2 = 540 damage a round,

Optional:
Incantatrix
Rod of Maximize to start off your 1st attack with all 4 metamagics

So... you can reach 540damage a round with pure wizard or pure sorcerer, and you can throw more of these monster orbs around by going incantatrix.

[eggynack]

Just tp get this straight a invisible, energy substitute x, quicken scorching ray 3rd
That is accurate, yes.

[FocusWolf413]

Just a few questions for the OP:
1) How are you getting the 2 extra feats? Are they only at first level?
2) How is the drow with no LA? Is it a specific lesser drow thing or a custom one? Is he just flat out ignoring the LA?
3) Would it be possible for you to borrow some of the books from the DM or go to his house and look through them?
4) Do you have access to the pdfs?

[OldTrees1]

Just a few questions for the OP:
1) How are you getting the 2 extra feats? Are they only at first level?
2) How is the drow with no LA? Is it a specific lesser drow thing or a custom one? Is he just flat out ignoring the LA?
3) Would it be possible for you to borrow some of the books from the DM or go to his house and look through them?
4) Do you have access to the pdfs?

2) It is the Pathfinder +0LA Drow as stated in the OP.