Scout + Carpet of Flying: Is there something I'm missing?

[Morphie]

Hello everyone.

One of the players in our group has a scout with a carpet of flying, and from what we've read based on mounted archery, he can do all of his attacks while moving with the carpet. This makes him deal skirmish damage while being able to make a full attack. Is it supposed to work that way or is there something I'm missing? I think that this makes it a bit over the top, but I would like to know your opinions.

Thanks :smallsmile:

[nedz]

The skirmish ability cannot be used while mounted.
Are you aware of this ?

[Twurps]

If your basing the flying carpet mechanics on mounted combat, skirmish shouldn't work. The skirmish ability explicitly states that it does not work while mounted.

Edit: swordsage'd.

[Morphie]

Are you aware of this ?

Hmm... that makes some sense and levels it out. But should the carpet be considered a mount? The char is just standing on it while it moves.

[Ilorin Lorati]

He still has to be handling it somehow. How are magic carpets controlled?

[Namfuak]

It's controlled by speaking, and the word "mount" never appears in its definition, so I would say it is not a mount. That said, the errata to skirmish was a bad change anyway.

[Curmudgeon]

Command word to activate, then
The carpet is then controlled by spoken directions.

[Necroticplague]

What's over the top about it? It's not as much damage as the rogue, and the defence boost is meh at best.

Anyway, the problem with this is as follows:

1:Scout requires you to move. Under these circumstances, its entirely possible to say that the carpet moved, not him, so he doesn't get Skirmish.
2: Action economy. The carpet takes a standard action to activate (command word). However, it doesn't say what action it is to use. So, it would default to a move action as a "manipulate item" action. Which makes sense, since it doesn't provide a limit as to how many times it can move, but does have a speed limit, thus that limit is logically per action used to manipulate it. If it was free to have it move, a person could just go "free action to move it 40 feet. free action to move it 40. free action to move it 40...."

[Feralventas]

Why is it going overboard for a Scout to be able to use its skirmish damage and full attack? Rogue can do the same and likewise gets more damage dice to work with through a number of means, and has the same diminished BAB. Is the Scout's damage capacity reaching unfair heights compared to the rest of the party?

[Morphie]

This is how out group ruled: Activating the carpet is a standard action (command word), but it is directed through spoken directions, which I think equals a free action. However, the time it takes the carpet to move equals the time of a move action, so you can't move more than it's speed per round (p.e. it can move 40ft +40ft in a full round).

Our scout (multiclassed with ranger) actually makes a lot of damage, and since he chose undead and aberrations as favored enemies he can do the skirmish damage against them even if they are invulnerable to critical hits (swift hunter feat). Combine that with a large force greatbow and he's hitting 2d8 + a bunch of d6s most of time. Being able to do a full attack all of the time is a lot of damage in my book, I understand that from an optimization point of view it might possible to do even more, but we try to keep the game balanced.

Note that I have nothing against the build or the weapon he has, he's just making his best out of the options available. My question is just about the carpet, the rules are omissive regarding the carpet and archery combat, and I'm not sure if I can apply the rules of mounted archery (full attack while moving) for the carpet if it isn't considered a mount. But if it is a mount, he can't skirmish, so I don't know what should be the ruling.

[Feralventas]

Hmm....what level, and what's the party composition? Sometimes asking a player to diminish their output or re-direct some character choices is the best solution, particularly if they volunteer for it, but I usually like to look for ways to bring the party up to par rather than diminish someone who's doing well. Maybe there's a few small adjustments that can be made to help them catch up as well. Scout in particular falls a bit short, though you mentioned Swift Hunter, so I guess it's Scout3/Ranger3 at least by now.

[Morphie]

Hmm....what level, and what's the party composition? Sometimes asking a player to diminish their output or re-direct some character choices is the best solution, particularly if they volunteer for it, but I usually like to look for ways to bring the party up to par rather than diminish someone who's doing well. Maybe there's a few small adjustments that can be made to help them catch up as well. Scout in particular falls a bit short, though you mentioned Swift Hunter, so I guess it's Scout3/Ranger3 at least by now.

Well, we have a cleric, a rogue/swashbuckler/thief-acrobat, a wizard Malconvoker/IoTSFV, a duskblade, a sorcerer and the ranger/scout and they are all lvl 14 and quite powerful as a whole.
Thanks for the concern Feralventas, but I'm not looking to nerf the PC or ban stuff, I just want to know what's the right ruling to use in this situation of "carpet+archery+skirmish damage". Can it be considered a mount or is it something else? But honestly, thank you :)

[sleepyphoenixx]

He's not actually moving himself so the same limitiations as if he were mounted should apply, no matter if you consider the carpet a mount or not.
That aside, how is this supposed to work? Is he standing on the carpet while flying combat maneuvers? That should at least call for balance checks to avoid falling off imo.

[Belkarseviltwin]

Would a Scout on a moving ship get skirmish damage when shooting at a target off the ship? I think he wouldn't- and I would treat flying carpets as vehicles, so Scouts firing from a moving vehicle (ship, flying carpet, chariot...) don't count as moving.

[StreamOfTheSky]

1. The scout errata banning mounting skirmish was a ridiculous and unnecessary nerf. The most notable skirmishers in real life were cavalry archers, for gods' sakes! Mounted Combat also requires its own investments and causes its own problems.

2. They made some "light cavalry" variant or whatever it's called that can ONLY skirmish while mounted, if the player really wants to and the DM insists on the errata.

3. It's not even broken. Skirmish damage is already less than sneak attack, and rogues can full attack with it reliably by mid levels, too (ring of blinking).


That aside, how is this supposed to work? Is he standing on the carpet while flying combat maneuvers? That should at least call for balance checks to avoid falling off imo.

Well yes, there should be a Balance or Ride check required each round (depending on how you interpret his use of the carpet), but it shouldn't be hard for him to just max his ranks in the skill and do it if he wants to invest in this tactic.