How good is a 22 passive perception?

[golentan]

I'm playing a wood elf druid with a wisdom of 19 in a campaign starting up tomorrow, and it looks like we can expect to level up quickly and often. I don't have many abilities that are worth pumping initially, because I've got most of what I want from my character already on the sheet. When we hit level 4, I want that extra point of wisdom, but I don't have any additional odd ability scores that would benefit from the 1 point bump except charisma, which I don't... really... need... and so I looked at feats. Observant gets me to the magic number of wisdom 20, and the moment I take it the boost to passive perception and investigation puts my perception to 22. So how good is that? It sounds amazing, given how important spot checks are to me in most games and that I'm planning on operating as the scout in my three man party (I've got the fastest movement and best proficiency in stealth and perception of anyone in the group, and worship Fenmarel so have a roleplaying reason to believe in the power of stealth, spying, and guerilla warfare). But this is only my second 5e game and I don't know HOW good that is at level 4.

[Kane0]

A great deal of people like to get their primary stat to 20 ASAP, so if this is better than a standard ability score increase for you then by all means do it. The extra perception (which is nothing to look down upon) is gravy in this situation. Delicious 'I see you' gravy.

Then after that you can have fun with other feats like alert, lucky or a casting feat of some kind. Theres not much you can do wrong if your staying on course.

Edit: And yes, that is a very respectable passive perception. Not much will be sneaking by you, and those that do will probably need advantage or a good modifier. Probably both really, not counting magic.

[Slipperychicken]

DC 20 is "hard", so you should be making the majority of perception checks without rolling.

It also depends a lot on your DM's attitude. He might decide to just raise all the DCs above 22, or refuse to allow passive perception for anything he wants you to have a chance to fail. You know him better than we do, so you might have some idea how he'd react.

[Demonic Spoon]

DC 20 is "hard", so you should be making the majority of perception checks without rolling.

It also depends a lot on your DM's attitude. He might decide to just raise all the DCs above 22, or refuse to allow passive perception for anything he wants you to have a chance to fail. You know him better than we do, so you might have some idea how he'd react.

This is important. The rules provide considerable ambiguity as to when you use passive perception, and very few rules outside of stealth explicitly use it.

[Feldarove]

22 is amazing. If your to be the scout, it's totally worth it to go that route

[Madfellow]

But this is only my second 5e game and I don't know HOW good that is at level 4.

A passive Perception score of 22 basically makes you Sherlock Holmes. Seriously, that's bonkers! :smallbiggrin:

[Rilak]

An alternative would be to get 1 WIS/CON and get proficiency in CON saves on the next level.

[FadeAssassin]

A passive Perception score of 22 basically makes you Sherlock Holmes. Seriously, that's bonkers! :smallbiggrin:

Actually, more of a Tarzan. A Passive Investigation score of 22 would make you Sherlock

[golentan]

Actually, more of a Tarzan. A Passive Investigation score of 22 would make you Sherlock

Sadly my passive investigation will cap out at 16...

[Spacehamster]

Sounds like my half-orc lvl 4 paladin lvl 1 rogue with that feat + expertise in perception. :D 24 passive perception ftw. ^^

[Madfellow]

Actually, more of a Tarzan. A Passive Investigation score of 22 would make you Sherlock

Nah, Sherlock doesn't actually investigate. He solves mysteries just by hearing about them and learns peoples' dirty secrets just by briefly glancing in their direction.

[gameogre]

Just a word of warning.

D&D5E isn't like other versions of the game. Someone starting off with such high stats sounds warning bells to me. There is a reason you can only buy a 15 and no higher with the point buy system.

The game is easily broken if you start with high ability scores. Your characters will have little need to spend points to increase stats and so will have many more feats, upping there power level even more.The player characters will have little challenge with tasks and enemies and MANY DM's would just have to increase the encounters and challenges to compensate. The issue is that 5E just doesn't use the math of other editions. The DC's just don't change all that much as you level up.

I have played 5E with the roll stats option(and of course everyone rolled very well at home when making their character*roll eyes*) the party just blasted through everything and greatly out powered anything I threw at them. Even eventually killing a boss monster(with minions) that was 6 levels over them in one round.

If you guys are wanting to play that way don't let me get in the way of your fun.

Just wanted to throw it out there that this isn't like 3.5 or Pathfinder or 4E....high stats are not a given. That concept was hard for my guys to figure out a first as for years now when playing other games, a high score of 15 would have lead to a weak starting character.

[Balor777]

D&D5E isn't like other versions of the game. Someone starting off with such high stats sounds warning bells to me. There is a reason you can only buy a 15 and no higher with the point buy system.

It was easily br9ken even at older versions.
Ask me hoq i know it i had a and wood or wild elf paladin
And rolled 18 18 16 13 18 18.
Final scores were STR/CON/WIS/CHA 18 DEX 20 INT 11
I had 12 fort 10refex 10will at first level.
The adventure we played had some clerics of bane(high DC control spells) as 2 boss fights at 4 and 7 level. Basicly all the fights went lime this:
Make a will ,you succed make a will you succed make a reflex half damage.
Anyway i agree that most of the times the DM will HAVE to make the adventure more difficult to be challenging and interesting.
At the end even this GODLIKE paladin died at 8 level after killing 3 random encounters(d100) tha were both 3 stone giants in a row without cleric to heal me(he had a different task away from us).After the stone giants the plot was we will have to face 8 monks around 3-4 level.I rolled 5 attack rolls bellow 5 on the D20 the enemies rolled GOOD, i was low on health and died.Yes it harsh cause ill never play a character so STRONG again but DM most of the times HAS to adapt.
Dont overthink anything. Even if you start with 14 on everythink qith human without a feat you will be fine.
At the end the enemies will find out that they need a really good assasin to counter your druid cause news will travel.It happens in real life too.Its realistic and dont blame the DM that one time a bunch of invisible rogues will attack you.

[Theodoxus]

I second this statement. I have a player with a 23 passive perception and he didn't notice the very well hidden box of goods in a shipwreck while swimming around. He then decided to actively perceive - and rolled a 15 (has also has Observant - so another 23) - he was a little taken aback, as it was the first time he failed to notice something.

The game is a converted Pathfinder Skulls & Shackles game, and I kept their attributes roughly the same - they did get knocked down to 20 maximums... but I've found it necessary to keep a lot of the AP DCs and monster stats fairly straight out of the book for them to be a challenge.

Using this first modified 5th run as a playtest, my next fully 5th ed game will have very few options - I like games being challenging; playing with godmode on isn't fun.

[FadeAssassin]

Nah, Sherlock doesn't actually investigate. He solves mysteries just by hearing about them and learns peoples' dirty secrets just by briefly glancing in their direction.

That was the Description they gave to ditinguish Investigation from Perception (Possibly only in the playtest).

Sherlock uses his INT to investigate, Tarzan notices things by Perception (WIS)

[unwise]

This edition, thankfully, seems to encourage using a higher DC for passive rather than active perception. The point at which you can rely on passive perception is also somewhat narrowed. You can't just walk into a room and instantly see every trap and secret door with a normal perception DC of 21 or less.

That being said, 22 Passive perception means that you are better at perception when you are not even trying than everybody else is when they are actively perceiving. Having somebody with that sort of perception is very handy given how ambushes are a death sentence in 5e. If you only pick up on one ambush in your career, that is probably one TPK avoided.

[jkat718]

@unwise

I'm not sure what, exactly, you mean when you say that ambushes are more deadly in 5e than in earlier editions. Is it because they're harder in 5e, or easier before? I haven't had that problem yet, and I'd rather not TPK my players by accident. I was planning on an ambush in a few sessions, too... :smalleek:

[Slipperychicken]

ambushes are a death sentence in 5e.\

How do you figure? I haven't seen anything to indicate that beyond not acting in the first round.

[Celcey]

Ambushes aren't a death sentence, but, like everything else in 5e, they can be dangerous. One round can make a very big difference- especially if there's more than one ambusher. Doubly so if they're at low levels with more than one attacker.

Also, 22 passive perception is amazing.

[holygroundj]

Ambushes are deadly because of what surprise does to combat. Especially prior to 3rd level (which is when most people can survive at least one round of hits), if your enemies can get 2 uninterupted turns (so surprise+rolling high on initiative) you can wipe a party easily.

For a classic example, the 4 goblins at the beginning of lost minds can get a surprise round. 2d6+4 will down anyone but a barbarian, and you can do that x4. If they get a good initiative, (i.e. going before one or two of the other characters, then dealing that damage before anyone gets to act can be really unfun. So now you go from having a standard party to 1 or 2 v 4 (because why wouldn't the goblins gang up on characters until they drop).

So that's why people think getting surprised can be so bad. My last session we were level 6 and there was one invisible monster. Because it got advantage on it's attack, it nailed the rogue from behind (the rogue was just the closet one--we had determined the marching order ourselves), took a crit, and then the rogue took an arrow and was down before he even got to act. Spending your first turn down (ironically the rogue had a 17 initiative, but the monsters took the day with an 18) isn't fun, and instantly changes the fight.

[Joe the Rat]

A passive Perception score of 22 basically makes you Sherlock Holmes. Seriously, that's bonkers! :smallbiggrin:


Actually, more of a Tarzan. A Passive Investigation score of 22 would make you Sherlock

He's got both. Perception finds the clues (a little more stubble on the left), Investigation helps tell you what it means (...as opposed to the right, meaning the morning light while Watson was shaving is different, meaning he's redecorated).

[Madfellow]

He's got both. Perception finds the clues (a little more stubble on the left), Investigation helps tell you what it means (...as opposed to the right, meaning the morning light while Watson was shaving is different, meaning he's redecorated).

See to me that just means he has a crazy high Intelligence score (obviously; this is Sherlock we're talking about) that lets him put the clues together. The way I see it, investigation is active, not passive. It requires actual effort in searching and testing your surroundings.