Setting up Sneak Attacks

[FocusWolf413]

I have an 8th level rogue/2nd level swordsage. I focus mostly on melee and thrown weapons. I want to set up sneak attacks and have three questions:

A) Is there an item that provides concealment that I can hide in that
1) Is not penetrated by True Seeing
2) Does not give my enemy concealment, thus negating my sneak attack.

B) Is there a way for me to penetrate the concealment provided by fogs and other things that true seeing is stopped by?

C) The ring of chameleon power's description says that "The wearer of this ring can gain the ability to magically blend in with the surroundings." Is this just a thematic description, or does it allow me to use my hide skill whether or not I have something to hide behind (for example, in a decently lit room with no furniture)?

I don't have a ton of money to spend. Lets say 13000gp. Any and all suggestions are appreciated, even if they're out of the price range.

All 3.5 books are in. Some 3e stuff might work. I can't get the collar of umbral metamorphosis.

Thanks in advance! ⊙]

[Allanimal]

If you don't have a lot of money to spend, a good way to set up sneak attacks is to have a fellow party member grapple the enemy. Once grappled, you can sneak attack that foe.

This does not help with concealment of course, but is an effective way to ensure sneak attack. It helps if your helper PC has a grapple build...

[Svata]

The easiest, most reliable way of setting up sneak attacks is a flanking buddy.

The rogue's attack whenever [their] opponent would be denied a dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks [their] target

The rules for flanking can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking), and essentially say that if you're directly across from someone who is threatening (as for AoOs) whoever you're attacking, you get a +2 bonus to-hit.

If you don't have a party member you can stand directly across from and get your sneak attack and +2 to-hit, a wand of Summon Monster II made by a fifth level caster (so the summons last you 5 rounds) will run you 7,500 gp (and a full round each time you use it), and net you 50 castings. That's a lot of flanking buddies, which makes up for their fragility, though less so as time goes on.

If you want to go up a bit in durability, a wand of Summon Monster III is 11,250 gp at CL 5 (which is the baseline for the spell, and again, will make your summons last you 5 rounds).

There's also Cloak Dance, a feat from the XPH, which requires 10 ranks in hide, and 2 in Performance (dance), and allows you to spend a move action to gain concealment unil your next round. Normally I'd not recommend it, at least, not without a Belt of Battle to go alongside it to recover that move action, because you would be unable to full-attack, but with you taking some levels of swordsage, this becomes less of an issue, as most of the time, you would use a maneuver instead of a full-attack anyway.

[Platymus Pus]

If you were allowed pathfinder I'd suggest this.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/goggles-sniper-goggles?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2Ftemplates%2Fprint%2 F
But that's just me
There are also spells and feats that increase sneak attack dmg and range in 3.0 and 3.5.

[Andezzar]

If you don't have a lot of money to spend, a good way to set up sneak attacks is to have a fellow party member grapple the enemy. Once grappled, you can sneak attack that foe.

This does not help with concealment of course, but is an effective way to ensure sneak attack. It helps if your helper PC has a grapple build...There is no need for grappling, flanking is sufficient for sneak attacks.

A) Was going to suggest the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, but you said you can't use it. Anyways it would only help if it provided the Dark Creature Template from Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave. The one in the same book as the collar does not waive the need for concealment.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade and a novice Diamond Mind Ring with that maneuver give you a strike to which the target is considered flat-footed i.e. you can sneak attack.

I guess it would be too feat intensive to dip a level of Shadowdancer.

B) Yes tremor sense and similar non-visual perception methods will circumvent that kind of concealment. I'm not sure if getting one of those is feasible with your build.

C) It is only descriptive. Blending with the surroundings has no quantifiable effect.

@Platymus Pus: The OP did not ask for increasing sneak attack damage but to be allowed to do a sneak attack in the first place.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Buy a bag of marbles, a wand of Grease or something similar. Few monsters have ranks in balance, and anything with less than 5 is flat footed while balancing.

For seeing through fog there are the non-visual senses (Blindsight, Tremorsense and Mindsight).
Fire Eyes (MotW) lets you see through non-magical fog, smoke and fire so its use is limited unless your DM likes to use those elements in his scenes.
Then there is the Cloud Cloak (FCotW (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20050311a)) that lets you see through any fog and also works as a limited Freedom of Movement. It's rather expensive though.

For hiding, if HiPS isn't feasible for some reason, try getting a burrow speed, the ability to shape the Phase Cloak soulmeld and bind it to your shoulder slot or some other method of ethereal/incorporeal movement that doesn't interfere with your attacks.

[AngelOfFaith]

Darkstalker[LOM 179] lets you at least try to circumvent tremmorsense, blindsense, scent and the such.
Acrobatic Backstab[CS 84], Escape Attack[SC 86], Hidden Blade[CS 87], Mosquito's Bite[CS 87] and Slipping Past[CS 89] are all skill tricks that leave opponents flat-footed.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder has the very affordable Fogcutting Lenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/lenses-fogcutting) - see if your DM will let you port those back. Best of all, "similar obscurement" means these will work with smoke - letting you create your own concealment via smokesticks or an eversmoking bottle.

[sideswipe]

there is the distracting embers maneouver that you could pick up as swordsage

[ericgrau]

A) Dust of disappearance. Pricy but hits the whole party and basically wins the fight.

B) Blindsight. E.g., blindfold of true darkness (Arms and Equipment Guide, 9,000 gp) or a race that has it.

C) Looks like it's just fluff so all you get is a +10 to hide checks.

[The Insaniac]

The Obi of Protection from Dragon Compendium gives you 20% miss chance if you have Improved Unarmed Strike. This is not magical concealment.

[Raul Leão]

When you have range, you can use improved feint, that lets u use a move action to feint an oponent. If you attack a feinted enemy, its an auto sneak attack. So you can feint and sneak attack every round that u have range.

[Fallenreality]

Yeah, I second the feinting thing. It's a very worthwhile feat investment for anyone who wants to catch their enemies flat footed.

[sideswipe]

When you have range, you can use improved feint, that lets u use a move action to feint an oponent. If you attack a feinted enemy, its an auto sneak attack. So you can feint and sneak attack every round that u have range.

add cleric dip and travel devotion

[Andezzar]

When you have range, you can use improved feint, that lets u use a move action to feint an oponent. If you attack a feinted enemy, its an auto sneak attack. So you can feint and sneak attack every round that u have range.Feinting only works with melee attacks.
If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

Feinting is also a really poor alternative to flanking, The latter allows full attacks, the former only one attack.

[Tohsaka Rin]

And this is where I mention that whips are melee weapons.

And that there are several magical whips that don't suck, or are neutered by creatures with armor.

[Andezzar]

And this is where I mention that whips are melee weapons.

And that there are several magical whips that don't suck, or are neutered by creatures with armor.If you have to burn a feat on exotic weapon, why not use a spiked chain?

[Tohsaka Rin]

Because whips are 1-handed, 15 foot range, and you can get that proficiency enchantment that treats you as proficient with the weapon, and if I recall correctly, turns your BaB into 3/4ths when wielding it.

[NNescio]

I seem to remember a discussion somewhere about alchemist fire/acid-throwing rogues with Ring of Blinking to get SA dice on splash weapons.

Need to refresh the effect with a standard action every seven rounds though, as it is a command-word item. Also, Blink's interactions with True Seeing is somewhat contentious.

[Psyren]

Need to refresh the effect with a standard action every seven rounds though, as it is a command-word item.

Very few combats go past 5 rounds anyway so this should be fine.

[Crake]

For seeing through fog there are the non-visual senses (Blindsight, Tremorsense and Mindsight).

Mindsight still provides a 50% miss chance, which means it's not viable for sneak attack.

[Psyren]

Tremorsense might suffer from concealment as well (it's not totally clear.)

[ericgrau]

Ya tremorsense doesn't work. There are many abilities that say they find the location of the foe but it is implied elsewhere that this merely gives you their square. An additional ability is required to overcome concealment. You need blind sight.

[NecessaryWeevil]

A) Mithralmist shirt. Shrouds your square in fog, which doesn't move with you.

[Seclora]

Water Devotion Feat from Complete Champion gets you a water elemental that scales by level, and pairs great with Cloistered Cleric Dip if you need it more than once a day. That and the Distracting Ember maneuver are probably your best options for picking up a flanking buddy feat wise and require the roughly the same investment of resources. Distracting Ember can be used more times a day, by default, but Water Devotion gets you a somewhat more durable flanker.

Personally, I always prefer 5 ranks in Balance and a bag of marbles or four. Keep a wand of grease for larger enemies and spiders if your DM rules that they're not always effective. A waterskin and some liquid ice(or ice powder or whatever it was called) also work, and can be crafted with Alchemy.


Because whips are 1-handed, 15 foot range, and you can get that proficiency enchantment that treats you as proficient with the weapon, and if I recall correctly, turns your BaB into 3/4ths when wielding it.
Skillful, it's a +1 bonus enchantment from Complete Arcane that didn't make the MIC for some reason. See if you can get a Dagger whip, or mighty dagger whip if you have the strength for it, instead. I believe that's Arms and Equipment, but could be wrong. Just keep in mind that the whip doesn't threaten, unlike the chain, so it functions poorly for AoO builds.

[FocusWolf413]

I decided to use the custom magic item rules to make a ring of infinite grease for 3.6k. I'll get a ring of blinking after I get an adamantine Sword of Subtlety.

I definitely don't have feats to spare. With TWF and Master of Poisons, I don't have anything to spare. I don't want to do whips/spiked chains because of flavor. This guy has all of the fluff of an assassin. Whips and spiked chains are too loud. Blades are silent and easier to poison.

I'm not a fan of feinting. It is a bad use of actions. Flanking is preferred, but not always possible.

Thanks for all of the suggestions! I'll use some of them in a future character. Maybe I'll do a whip wielding vigilante-type guy. Hmmmmm....

[Barbarian Horde]

Get a artificer to use metamagic Item Infusion on a rod of "Foot Steps of the Divine" with persist. Now cast the spell and discharge it. Now you do the math, but for every one round that it was remaining gain +10 movement speed . Now run one mile past him and turn around and then run back for a super speed Sneak Attack. I mean at the velocity your moving at It would rip him in half I would imagine. But this is DND so settle for your d6.
How many rounds in a min 10?
1440minutes in day
1440x10=14,400movement speed?
thats 2400movement per sec.
Mach 2 Sneak attack Please

10900g for a third level Eternal Wand of "Footsteps of the Divine"

[atemu1234]

There was a feat in Legacy of Blood that allows the user to make a nonmagical version of magical items; presumably you could use that with a continuous wonderous item that produces smoke.

[FocusWolf413]

Get a artificer to use metamagic Item Infusion on a rod of "Foot Steps of the Divine" with persist. Now cast the spell and discharge it. Now you do the math, but for every one round that it was remaining gain +10 movement speed . Now run one mile past him and turn around and then run back for a super speed Sneak Attack. I mean at the velocity your moving at It would rip him in half I would imagine. But this is DND so settle for your d6.
How many rounds in a min 10?
1440minutes in day
1440x10=14,400movement speed?
thats 2400movement per sec.
Mach 2 Sneak attack Please

10900g for a third level Eternal Wand of "Footsteps of the Divine"

That is beautiful. What book is it in?

[Curmudgeon]

Now you do the math, but for every one round that it was remaining gain +10 movement speed . Now run one mile past him and turn around and then run back for a super speed Sneak Attack.
Two problems:

Being able to move fast doesn't give you any attacks, so
Being able to move superfast still doesn't give you any attacks.

You win the battle for super speed taunting, though. :smallbiggrin:

[FocusWolf413]

Two problems:

Being able to move fast doesn't give you any attacks, so
Being able to move superfast still doesn't give you any attacks.

You win the battle for super speed taunting, though. :smallbiggrin:

It technically doesn't, but hitting someone with, let's say, a tree branch, while moving at that speed should realistically be a touch attack. Even if it only hits their armor (which would crumple like a tin can), the force being transferred to them would be extremely high and it would do ridiculousD6 damage.

[Darrin]

A) Is there an item that provides concealment that I can hide in that
1) Is not penetrated by True Seeing
2) Does not give my enemy concealment, thus negating my sneak attack.


Ring of Blinking (27000 GP, DMG) + Blind-Fight/Mage Slayer/Pierce Magical Concealment feats (Complete Arcane). True seeing doesn't help against the miss chance provided by blink, although the technical details of exactly why are probably not immediately apparent to most players.

A Cloud Cloak (31500 GP, Far Corners: Magic Items of the Sky (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20050311a) article) + various fog/mist spells would work with a reach/ranged attack. Within 5', your target could still visually identify your location.

The cheapest option might be Eversmoking Bottle (5400 GP, DMG) along with the fire eyes spell from Masters of the Wild. However, this is a 3.0 spell, and it involves an interpretation of RAW that some DMs might have an issue with. You may also need a Necklace of Adaptation (9000 GP, DMG) to breathe normally while inside the smoke.

Dust Eggshell Grenade (10 GP, Oriental Adventures) is probably the cheapest option - blind your opponent with a ranged touch attack, no save.



B) Is there a way for me to penetrate the concealment provided by fogs and other things that true seeing is stopped by?


If the fog is magical, the Pierce Magical Concealment feat. Torch Bug Paste (25 GP, Complete Scoundrel) will negate all concealment so long as it isn't a [darkness] spell. Otherwise... Cloud Cloak for 31500 GP (mentioned above).



C) The ring of chameleon power's description says that "The wearer of this ring can gain the ability to magically blend in with the surroundings." Is this just a thematic description, or does it allow me to use my hide skill whether or not I have something to hide behind (for example, in a decently lit room with no furniture)?


By strict RAW, you still need to satisfy the two conditions to hide: 1) not being observed and 2) some sort of concealment/cover. If this ring was designed to mimic the Hide in Plain Sight class ability, then it would have said so.

[Curmudgeon]

It technically doesn't, but hitting someone with, let's say, a tree branch, while moving at that speed should realistically be a touch attack.
What? I don't believe that for a moment. It's much more difficult to hit if you have much less time to line up your shot. I'd make it against regular AC + 20 because you have only a fraction of a second, instead of the usual ~3 seconds, to get in one good whack.

[Urpriest]

A Cloud Cloak (31500 GP, Far Corners: Magic Items of the Sky (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20050311a) article) + various fog/mist spells would work with a reach/ranged attack. Within 5', your target could still visually identify your location.

Along these lines, if you've got a Druid in your party Snowsight and Obscuring Snow make for a good combination.

[FocusWolf413]

What? I don't believe that for a moment. It's much more difficult to hit if you have much less time to line up your shot. I'd make it against regular AC + 20 because you have only a fraction of a second, instead of the usual ~3 seconds, to get in one good whack.

But all of that force from the branch is what's doing the damage. If you're hit by a plane and you're in armor, the armor won't protect you. It just needs to touch you.

[Curmudgeon]

But all of that force from the branch is what's doing the damage. If you're hit by a plane and you're in armor, the armor won't protect you. It just needs to touch you.
I wasn't referring to the damage; I was only talking about the attack. The damage should be high if we're taking momentum into consideration. Being required to execute your attack in a tiny fraction of a second, though, should make that attack much more difficult.

[Amphetryon]

But all of that force from the branch is what's doing the damage. If you're hit by a plane and you're in armor, the armor won't protect you. It just needs to touch you.

Very few other aspects of 3.X model physics to the degree you're proposing, though.

[Zaq]

Very few other aspects of 3.X model physics to the degree you're proposing, though.

For the record, that's probably a good thing. Mixing physics and D&D rarely ends well.