A crazy idea; but does it work?

[Inevitability]

I have always liked the idea of the PC's starting off with almost no equipment, overcoming their first encounter with great difficulty, then slowly gaining equipment from slain foes and the occasional treasure chest.

This, however, comes with an obvious problem. What about spell components? Would it be too harsh if a spellcaster wanting to cast, say, Grease had to find a way to get some pork rind or butter himself?

[Troacctid]

Kill an enemy spellcaster and take their component pouch.

[OldTrees1]

Having to scavenge for components would be quite harsh, however some players might fight for the opportunity to try the challenge. Ask your players first.

[FocusWolf413]

It seems like it could be fun, but definitely make sure to talk to your players. Throw a couple low level magic users in there to provide the pouches and books. Perhaps you could allow people to, within reason, retrain their first level after they get some items or reach their second level. For example, a rogue could become a beguiler or bard, a paladin could become a cleric, a ranger could become a druid, or a spellthief could become a sorcerer or wizard.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There are plenty of spells without components. The obvious thing to do when you don't have a component pouch is to prepare those.
So what if your favorite spell needs a component you don't have? Life isn't fair and the fighter would prefer having his armor too. It's part of the game. You'll get one soon enough after all.

[Inevitability]

Kill an enemy spellcaster and take their component pouch.

The game in question would be in a megadungeon-y setting with only a few settlements, so enemy spellcasters will have to cope with the same difficulties as the players.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The game in question would be in a megadungeon-y setting with only a few settlements, so enemy spellcasters will have to cope with the same difficulties as the players.

Making it an ongoing problem (as in, SCP's aren't available at all) will just make every caster take Eschew Materials, turning your attempt at flavor into a feat tax for casters.
Because while most players will put up with it for a session or two going the whole campaign without (reliable) access to most of your spells is quite another story.

[Troacctid]

Spell components are designed under an expectation that they will be readily available from a component pouch. The designers put in a lot of odd and esoteric components that would be difficult or impossible to scavenge because it wasn't their intent for players to have to actually scavenge for them--the components themselves are purely for flavor. Forcing the use of actual components without a pouch would not result in good gameplay.

If this is something you want to try for gameplay reasons, I would instead put together a system of interchangeable components, like runes (http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Runes). If you just want components to be rare in your setting for story reasons, then simply replace component pouches with arcane focuses and mission accomplished.

[WhamBamSam]

Assuming "it all starts in a tavern" or what have you, a first level wizard should be able to go and acquire what they need to get through enough encounters to buy a spell component pouch. The only big name 1st level wizard spell that's hard to get the supplies for in Generic Fantasy Hamlet #3567 is Color Spray, which requires three different colors of sand.

Just being dropped in the middle of nowhere with naught but your spellbook and the enemies bearing down upon you is something of another matter, though there are still a number of good spells that have relatively easy or non-existent material components (ex. Sleep, Benign Transposition, Nerveskitter, Charm Person/Hypnotism).

It's always worth asking your players about this sort of thing, but I think the wizard should be able to manage alright. He's probably better off than a Fighter who has to swing around a large stick while not wearing armor, though pretty much everyone is worse off than the Druid whose riding dog simply does not care and just needs to get hold of a divine focus for spellcasting.

It might be worth explaining what you mean by "almost no equipment," so we know what the wizard who presumably has a spellbook, a robe, and nothing else, is being compared to.

[atemu1234]

Give players eschew materials as a bonus feat; problem solved.

[Tragak]

I think it could be fun to try something like that, but I only know that because you asked. You need to know if your players think it would be fun to try.

[Blackhawk748]

Id be all for that, but thats me. Ill just echo whats been said several times and say ask your players. Also im sensing prison break for a first adventure.

Also i like the Rune idea instead of components.

[jedipotter]

IThis, however, comes with an obvious problem. What about spell components? Would it be too harsh if a spellcaster wanting to cast, say, Grease had to find a way to get some pork rind or butter himself?

It's not too harsh. I do this all the time. A spell component pouch is often the third thing a spellcaster losses in a game, after a mount and their spellbook.

A spellcaster running around, desperately trying to find some spell components can be quite fun. Though it's not for everyone.


Sally once had the gnome Perwinkell Faerybottom. And the group was caught and enslaved....in Thay. So Per had no spell components or spellbook. So it was a mad dash across the farm lands of Thay, trying to get to the border. And Per grabbing everything she could to cast a spell. Liker her running into a hen house, followed by orcs, as she desperate looked for a rotten egg. She found one and cast Stinking cloud..just in time.

[ericgrau]

Many of the material components could be found as random items on foes. Remember the basic concerns we usually ignore like food, water, hygiene and interior decorating and more components could appear. Unlocking power could be a lot of fun as long as you don't make it too hard. I'd start the party at at least level 3 and of course use low CR foes to start. That will keep mages from being one shotted before they find a pinch of sand. In fact in addition to the random components through excessively fleshing out rooms, you could roll up 10 random spells and intentionally leave easter egg components for the players to find. An hourglass for sand, etc. Maybe they won't match the player's current spells, but he may find or research more spells too. You might also list out the material components behind your DM screen and make it a spellcraft DC of 20 + spell level secret roll to recognize a potential material component for a spell you don't have. And players might start tearing off random bits of everything they see, useful or not, adventure game style. Just tell them to keep a list and don't spend more than a sentence describing what they do.

The player may want spell mastery too, or start the game with some spells memorized so that he has to choose what he wants to save for writing down later or hope that he finds a new spellbook.

And then throw them a caster with a spell component pouch and possibly a spellbook and move on. Or provide parchment suitable for scribing such as a well made blank book like a fancy diary with unused pages remaining. And determine what special inks are made out of. Maybe it's powdered obsidian and oil. Do tell the caster what he's looking for; he should know. Also you can grind obsidian with a hammer and a lot of patience. It's volcanic glass. A pestle and mortar may help with grinding many things too. It's basically a rod-rock and a bowl-rock. It would be found in a kitchen next to the spices. Or in an alchemist's lab.

Likewise I think other players may have fun going from bare fisted to gear, rationing out everything they find, improvising weapons, etc. I'd discourage weapon specific feats though because it's a bit heavy handed to say, "Gee, you guys find a monster with a spiked chain." Unless the player picks super common weapons like longsword, greatsword, dagger, quarterstaff, etc.

[Arbane]

{scrubbed}

[Blackhawk748]

{scrubbed}

[Lord of Shadows]

Our group started out one time as related family who all lived on neighboring farms. We had brothers, sisters, and cousins mostly. Might have been a hired man in there too. Anyway, life out in the country was pretty hard as it was, and then one night a raiding party of Goblins shows up, setting fire to everything. It's amazing how many weapons one can find on a farm when one needs to. We defeated the Goblins, but of course the farms were burned to the ground and all the senior relatives were killed. I bet we were a sight the next morning, striking off in search of fame, fortune, and a good meal. Carrying our woodsman's axes and pitchforks, with all we could salvage packed onto a farm wagon pulled by two draft horses. Ahh, such meager beginnings..

For spell components, we initially were able to make do with "close replacements." Plus I believe one of the Goblins had a spell component pouch, of a sort. And our "caster" was more of a herb and tonic sort to start with. We didn't really get too far into spellcasting until we reached a greater area of civilization.

[Arbane]

{scrubbed}

Semi-seriously, if the person who plays a spellcaster WANTS to have an uphill scramble to use their only ability, they'll have fun with this. If not, they'll either play a Sorcerer with Eschew Materials and ignore it, or HATE IT.

[Blackhawk748]

Our group started out one time as related family who all lived on neighboring farms. We had brothers, sisters, and cousins mostly. Might have been a hired man in there too. Anyway, life out in the country was pretty hard as it was, and then one night a raiding party of Goblins shows up, setting fire to everything. It's amazing how many weapons one can find on a farm when one needs to. We defeated the Goblins, but of course the farms were burned to the ground and all the senior relatives were killed. I bet we were a sight the next morning, striking off in search of fame, fortune, and a good meal. Carrying our woodsman's axes and pitchforks, with all we could salvage packed onto a farm wagon pulled by two draft horses. Ahh, such meager beginnings..

For spell components, we initially were able to make do with "close replacements." Plus I believe one of the Goblins had a spell component pouch, of a sort. And our "caster" was more of a herb and tonic sort to start with. We didn't really get too far into spellcasting until we reached a greater area of civilization.

Thats sounds like one of the best lvl 0 starter quests ever.

[ericgrau]

I missed the part about it being hard to find material components forever.


Making it an ongoing problem (as in, SCP's aren't available at all) will just make every caster take Eschew Materials, turning your attempt at flavor into a feat tax for casters.
Because while most players will put up with it for a session or two going the whole campaign without (reliable) access to most of your spells is quite another story.
Pretty much.

Megadungeons are also less interesting in that they tend to have less components without it being contrived. Unlike a hideout or some such, which is more likely to have random items. So this pretty much turns the whole thing into find caster, kill caster, take spellbook, take the eschew material components feat.

Unlocking power is fun (as long is it isn't frustratingly hard). Being forever restricted not so much fun.

[jedipotter]

Semi-seriously, if the person who plays a spellcaster WANTS to have an uphill scramble to use their only ability, they'll have fun with this. If not, they'll either play a Sorcerer with Eschew Materials and ignore it, or HATE IT.

It's not for everyone.

If your the type of player that likes spamming Celerity or abusing the poorly written Kobold Relic the Enveloping Pit or just like to sit back and solve any problem with your character causally casting a spell, then your best off to just ignore spell components.

And also causal gamers, they don't even want to keep track of what spell they have memorized, let along ''hard'' things like spell components.

And plenty of players of a spellcaster will just give up. They won't even try. Take way the spell components and they will say ''I want to play another character''.

You could always ask about it before the game. I don't recommend doing this, but you still could.

[Arbane]

You could always ask about it before the game. I don't recommend doing this, but you still could.

Thank you for summing up everything I dislike about your GMing style in two sentences.

[Flickerdart]

It's so much fun when players find out that when they took time out of their lives to go somewhere they wouldn't normally go, instead of having fun with friends they instead have to slog through dank dungeon rooms looking for bat poop.

[Blackhawk748]

It's so much fun when players find out that when they took time out of their lives to go somewhere they wouldn't normally go, instead of having fun with friends they instead have to slog through dank dungeon rooms looking for bat poop.

Not if you have a bat familiar :smallwink:

[eggynack]

{scrubbed} In summary though, with the points pertinent to this situation, it tends to turn campaigns into an inventory management quest for the caster, requiring even more book keeping and thing memorization for casters than you did before. That doesn't seem like your goal in instituting the rule, so I'd avoid it.

Instead, you could just give casters pouches as standard equipment, which makes sense, you could ditch them and give everyone eschew material components for free, which also makes sense, or you could do as Troacctid mentioned in this thread, and as Larkas mentioned in the old thread, and revamp the component system to make it more amenable to seeking components out. Troacctid mentioned runes, and Larkas mentioned crystal shards (a system that other users and I detailed a bit in that thread, and some more in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?356576), if you're interested), but what you're looking for is something that is easier to handle than the current system. You want to cut down on both the micromanagement and memory/searching issues, which means tossing spells into easy to remember categories and making there be only a few components that are relatively easy to collect. The details are up to you, but what you don't want is the players having to search through a bat infested cave every time they want to throw a fireball. It's just onerous.

[jedipotter]

Well, this seems to be quickly becoming a Jedipotter thread, I would advise reading it for anyone planning to do this, because it lists the points against pretty well. In summary though, with the points pertinent to this situation, it tends to turn campaigns into an inventory management quest for the caster, requiring even more book keeping and thing memorization for casters than you did before. That doesn't seem like your goal in instituting the rule, so I'd avoid it.


It's not as bad as all that.

It never hurts to figure out.....or ask.....the players what they think is fun. Some players think ''nitty gritty down to Earth tough uphill battles '' are fun. Some players only think fun is ''easy pure escapism fantasy where everything goes my way''. And all types of ''fun'' in-between.

Movies are a good sign post. If they like Die Hard, where John gets beat up like crazy and has few weapons, they are more likely on the side of ''losing spell components is fun and exciting''. If they like The Matrix, where Neo is the most powerful demigod in the whole universe, they are more likely to think ''losing spell components would be no fun.''

And it's easy to stop the game from becoming ''the Quest for Spell Components''. Just tell the players they can't do that. And, on with the game.....

[Flickerdart]

Not if you have a bat familiar :smallwink:
Roll for bat poop. You got a 1? Your bat poops out Orcus.


And it's easy to stop the game from becoming ''the Quest for Spell Components''. Just tell the players they can't do that. And, on with the game.....
"Look guys, I know I told you that you had to go looking for spell components in order to cast spells, but actually I don't want you to do that either. In fact if you just stop doing everything and let me tell my story, things should go a lot smoother."

[Honest Tiefling]

I think the idea of a more general spell components would be compelling for a mega-dungeon. You cannot just toss out spells willy-nilly, and suddenly attacking spellcasters might become a lot more attractive. But then you don't have to worry about attacking the wrong type of spellcaster, or choosing your spells based on what you might find vs. what the party will benefit from and find interesting.

Like food, I've never seen a group track more then generic rations. No one I've played with has given out scurvy or hypervitaminosis A if they didn't have a balanced diet. So I'd pitch this idea to interested people with that concept in mind.

[eggynack]

It never hurts to figure out.....or ask.....the players what they think is fun. Some players think ''nitty gritty down to Earth tough uphill battles '' are fun. Some players only think fun is ''easy pure escapism fantasy where everything goes my way''. And all types of ''fun'' in-between.
The issue is that spell component limitation isn't really nitty gritty or down to earth. It's just inventory management. It's a system where you have to continually cross reference desired spells with local availability, doing continual busy work



Movies are a good sign post. If they like Die Hard, where John gets beat up like crazy and has few weapons, they are more likely on the side of ''losing spell components is fun and exciting''. If they like The Matrix, where Neo is the most powerful demigod in the whole universe, they are more likely to think ''losing spell components would be no fun.''
See, that's the thing. At no point in Die Hard do I recall him spending long tedious minutes sorting through his inventory, trying to determine how it specifically matches up against a situation, and then searching around for arbitrary things. Yes, he has to get by with less consistently, repurposing and such, but you don't really watch the long boring minutes spent doing that, especially because there isn't really any improvisation to spell components. It's rare that you'll come across a situation where you can combine arbitrary stuff to make bat guano, after all. If you could, that'd at least be a bit more interesting. As is, it's a lot less, "Hmm, what can I do with some sheep fleece and a length of wire," and more, "So, I have 13 of this component, 5 of this component, 2 of that component, hmm, better get more of that one, 7 of this component, oh jeez, none of this component, I guess that spell's off limits..." and on and on.


And it's easy to stop the game from becoming ''the Quest for Spell Components''. Just tell the players they can't do that. And, on with the game.....
As was mentioned in the other thread, that's just silly. You're constructing a situation where this is the thing people need to do, and then getting annoyed when they do that thing. Yeah, if they're inches away from a dragon and want to head back for components, then that might be a reasonable limitation (and one you've specifically mentioned), but if you're in a town and the player wants to spend long periods of time seeking out spell components, limiting them in that fashion is absurd.

[WhamBamSam]

It's not for everyone.

If your the type of player that likes spamming Celerity or abusing the poorly written Kobold Relic the Enveloping Pit or just like to sit back and solve any problem with your character causally casting a spell, then your best off to just ignore spell components.

And also causal gamers, they don't even want to keep track of what spell they have memorized, let along ''hard'' things like spell components.

And plenty of players of a spellcaster will just give up. They won't even try. Take way the spell components and they will say ''I want to play another character''.

You could always ask about it before the game. I don't recommend doing this, but you still could.

{scrubbed}

I don't understand your fascination with the Enveloping Pit. I've never, ever, seen anyone try to use it as a Bag of Holding. Also, I get the impression that most (or at least a good chunk) of the games where Celerity spamming happens are games where you don't survive without spamming it. Plenty of people, even on this board, ban Celerity, and plenty of people want to play games where you use Celerity (or whatever) not because you want to play on easy mode, but because you want to play at a difficulty where you need that sort of power to keep up.

The game was designed around the assumption that you would keep track of the spells you prepared each day. It was not based around the assumption that players would have to keep track of material components. Quite the opposite, in fact. It was based on the assumption that material components without listed prices were contained in every spell component pouch and not something with which players need concern themselves. There is no comparison between the two. None.

As I said earlier in the thread, it's not that bad to slog through a few encounters under these limitations, but forcing players to manage spell components in perpetuity the way you're trying to hijack this thread to suggest is just flat out unacceptable.


It's not as bad as all that.

It never hurts to figure out.....or ask.....the players what they think is fun. Some players think ''nitty gritty down to Earth tough uphill battles '' are fun. Some players only think fun is ''easy pure escapism fantasy where everything goes my way''. And all types of ''fun'' in-between.

Movies are a good sign post. If they like Die Hard, where John gets beat up like crazy and has few weapons, they are more likely on the side of ''losing spell components is fun and exciting''. If they like The Matrix, where Neo is the most powerful demigod in the whole universe, they are more likely to think ''losing spell components would be no fun.''

And it's easy to stop the game from becoming ''the Quest for Spell Components''. Just tell the players they can't do that. And, on with the game.....You can fight uphill battles without being denied the ability to do anything. There are a lot of Die Hard movies, but to my knowledge, John McClane has not yet pulled the trigger only to have Orcus come out of his gun and eat him. Though that might not be the worst way to finally end the franchise.

[Seharvepernfan]

There are plenty of spells without components. The obvious thing to do when you don't have a component pouch is to prepare those.
So what if your favorite spell needs a component you don't have? Life isn't fair and the fighter would prefer having his armor too. It's part of the game. You'll get one soon enough after all.

I second this.

[ericgrau]

There is a right way to do this. But the major issue at hand is that it is simply a PITA to play if they track all spell components forever. Even if it's not incredibly difficult to win, it's a boring waste of an evening to even come to the D&D game.

[Arbane]

There is a right way to do this. But the major issue at hand is that it is simply a PITA to play if they track all spell components forever. Even if it's not incredibly difficult to win, it's a boring waste of an evening to even come to the D&D game.

Agreed. To quote my sig on another forum: "I'm not a fan of any approach to game design where the primary resource is the player's patience. - David J Prokopetz"

It's fine if ALL the players are OK with that sort of gritty bean-counting (possibly literally - there must be some spells that use beans as material components), but otherwise just telling the players every so often 'you're getting low on (whatever), better resupply soon" seems sufficient to me. I say all of the players because this will also take up the time of the guy who played a monk and DIDN'T want to make the game into GuanoQuest XII.

[ericgrau]

GuanoQuest XII.

http://worldofguidecraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/quest_goinggoingguano.jpg

[jedipotter]

The issue is that spell component limitation isn't really nitty gritty or down to earth. It's just inventory management. It's a system where you have to continually cross reference desired spells with local availability, doing continual busy work

It's not ''work'' if it's fun to you. Some players have near epic characters that use dozens of spells, abilities, exploits, features, magic items and kitchen sinks.....and they can, amazingly, ''do all that busy work'' when they want thier character to do 100 points of damage...




See, that's the thing. At no point in Die Hard do I recall him spending long tedious minutes sorting through his inventory, trying to determine how it specifically matches up against a situation, and then searching around for arbitrary things. Yes, he has to get by with less consistently, repurposing and such, but you don't really watch the long boring minutes spent doing that, especially because there isn't really any improvisation to spell components.

Right, throughout the whole movie he fights with whatever he can find.



It's rare that you'll come across a situation where you can combine arbitrary stuff to make bat guano, after all. If you could, that'd at least be a bit more interesting. As is, it's a lot less, "Hmm, what can I do with some sheep fleece and a length of wire," and more, "So, I have 13 of this component, 5 of this component, 2 of that component, hmm, better get more of that one, 7 of this component, oh jeez, none of this component, I guess that spell's off limits..." and on and on.

Note this is part of the fun.



As was mentioned in the other thread, that's just silly. You're constructing a situation where this is the thing people need to do, and then getting annoyed when they do that thing. Yeah, if they're inches away from a dragon and want to head back for components, then that might be a reasonable limitation (and one you've specifically mentioned), but if you're in a town and the player wants to spend long periods of time seeking out spell components, limiting them in that fashion is absurd.

Sure, that is absurd. But you don't blast a spellcaster when they are in the parking lot of Magic Mart. Loosing spells components is just part of a ''fast paced survival adventure''. And they whole idea is that you don't give the characters a chance to stop and smell the roses and go shopping.



I don't understand your fascination with the Enveloping Pit. I've never, ever, seen anyone try to use it as a Bag of Holding.

It's bigger and cheaper then a portable hole. It's in the top ten list of ''I'm I problem player that wants to ruin the game foreveryone''. And you have never seen anyone use it as a portable hole? Kinda odd, that is what it does. No one cares about the lame pit part. They just like the horrible misprint.



The game was designed around the assumption that you would keep track of the spells you prepared each day. It was not based around the assumption that players would have to keep track of material components. Quite the opposite, in fact. It was based on the assumption that material components without listed prices were contained in every spell component pouch and not something with which players need concern themselves. There is no comparison between the two. None.


Maybe you have never met a casual gamer. Zack shows up late to the game every single time. But he is best buddies with the DM so he is allowed to utterly disrupt the game showing up late and making a huge noisy entrance. Zack ''just barely'' remembers to bring his character...in a folded up little square in his pocket. Though, oddly, his written down character of Zarfam the arch mage only takes up a quarter of the paper. Zack just wants to ''relax and play and have fun'', but it has to be quick, he has to do *''something vague and important in like two hours"*. Zack has not thought about D&D or his character until the second he unfolded the paper. The paper does not have much of a spell list, it just says ''He knows all the cool kick butt spells!''.

So, eventually, once the game starts Zack will just have Zarfam cast spells at random. Either ones he can remember like ''fireball'' or once the DM tells him when he says something like ''um, my guy casts a spell to block the doorway somehow'' and the DM helpfully says ''Wall of force?'' and Zack says ''Yup". Zack will ''sort of'' make marks on his paper as he plays. Though most players will find it odd that Zack never looks at his character sheet to see what spells his character has memorized and more just kinda guesses. Should another player ask ''does your wizard have fly memorized?'', Zack will say ''yes'', always. If asked a question about a spell he won't remember anything about the rules, or might just say ''oh, don't have that spell'' as a quick cover.

An hour or so in the game, someone might notice that Zarfam has cast Cloudkill eight times, and wonder if Zarfam is not 10th level like the rest of the player characters. Though the DM and Zack both say ''yup Zarfam is 10th level''. And if asked about Cloudkill Zack will just say ''it's an awesome spell'', and the DM will kind of cover with saying ''oh, my fault, he will cast Ice Storm next''. Then Zarfam will cast like eight Ice Storms over the next couple minutes.

And hour later when Zack runs out the door, he leaves his sheet behind. So you can get a good look at the big blank space under where he wrote ''can cast spells'' along with ''Zarfam'' and his ''six ability scores''.





As I said earlier in the thread, it's not that bad to slog through a few encounters under these limitations, but forcing players to manage spell components in perpetuity the way you're trying to hijack this thread to suggest is just flat out unacceptable.

It's just another style of game play. Some like it, some don't. It's not a hijack to say ''it can and does work''.



You can fight uphill battles without being denied the ability to do anything.

Sure. But how do you get ''loss of spell components'' equals ''denied ability to do anything?''

[Vhaidara]

Maybe you have never met a casual gamer. Zack shows up late to the game every single time. But he is best buddies with the DM so he is allowed to utterly disrupt the game showing up late and making a huge noisy entrance. Zack ''just barely'' remembers to bring his character...in a folded up little square in his pocket. Though, oddly, his written down character of Zarfam the arch mage only takes up a quarter of the paper. Zack just wants to ''relax and play and have fun'', but it has to be quick, he has to do *''something vague and important in like two hours"*. Zack has not thought about D&D or his character until the second he unfolded the paper. The paper does not have much of a spell list, it just says ''He knows all the cool kick butt spells!''.

So, eventually, once the game starts Zack will just have Zarfam cast spells at random. Either ones he can remember like ''fireball'' or once the DM tells him when he says something like ''um, my guy casts a spell to block the doorway somehow'' and the DM helpfully says ''Wall of force?'' and Zack says ''Yup". Zack will ''sort of'' make marks on his paper as he plays. Though most players will find it odd that Zack never looks at his character sheet to see what spells his character has memorized and more just kinda guesses. Should another player ask ''does your wizard have fly memorized?'', Zack will say ''yes'', always. If asked a question about a spell he won't remember anything about the rules, or might just say ''oh, don't have that spell'' as a quick cover.

An hour or so in the game, someone might notice that Zarfam has cast Cloudkill eight times, and wonder if Zarfam is not 10th level like the rest of the player characters. Though the DM and Zack both say ''yup Zarfam is 10th level''. And if asked about Cloudkill Zack will just say ''it's an awesome spell'', and the DM will kind of cover with saying ''oh, my fault, he will cast Ice Storm next''. Then Zarfam will cast like eight Ice Storms over the next couple minutes.

And hour later when Zack runs out the door, he leaves his sheet behind. So you can get a good look at the big blank space under where he wrote ''can cast spells'' along with ''Zarfam'' and his ''six ability scores''.



Just saying, the only place I have ever heard of either someone this bad (Player or GM) is from you.

[eggynack]

It's not ''work'' if it's fun to you. Some players have near epic characters that use dozens of spells, abilities, exploits, features, magic items and kitchen sinks.....and they can, amazingly, ''do all that busy work'' when they want thier character to do 100 points of damage...
Sure. If inventory management or extra book keeping are fun for a player/group, then go right ahead. If it's not, and I'd suspect that subset of players is significantly larger, then it is in fact work. Personally speaking, I can get behind some of this type of work, like when I'm looking up cool stuff like spells and forms, but I get bored when dealing with really detail oriented micro stuff like this one. The difference is that learning about those forms feels like another function of playing the game, as everything I learn has really direct ramifications, while learning material components feels really tangential to the main experience. Taking it to a more actually game present example, I care some about itemization, but a lot less about looking at the weight of those items.


Note this is part of the fun.
Again, to some. Not to all. If this is the sort of play experience the OP wants, good for him, but it sounds like he's going for gritty rather than accountanty.


Sure, that is absurd. But you don't blast a spellcaster when they are in the parking lot of Magic Mart. Loosing spells components is just part of a ''fast paced survival adventure''. And they whole idea is that you don't give the characters a chance to stop and smell the roses and go shopping.

See, I had assumed, from the fact that you've accused players of trying to go solo when they had perfectly good opportunities to buy components, that you'd granted players who stay within the system the capacity to buy components and not spontaneously lose them. If you're stripping those components away, or denying the players time to buy them, then stopping the players from questing for them loops back around to absurd, even when they're close to a quest.

To set this more along a spectrum, the more you restrict the ability of the players to buy and maintain components, the more absurd it becomes to restrict the ability to quest for them and take up time doing so. So, if the players are literally always standing right outside a dragon's lair, then it's absurd to stop them from finding components when outside a dragon's lair, and if they often hang out around town where components are plentiful, then restricting questing outside the lair becomes somewhat reasonable.


It's bigger and cheaper then a portable hole. It's in the top ten list of ''I'm I problem player that wants to ruin the game foreveryone''. And you have never seen anyone use it as a portable hole? Kinda odd, that is what it does. No one cares about the lame pit part. They just like the horrible misprint.
Y'know, I've wanted to ask this one for awhile. What does the actual itemization of a player abusing an enveloping pit look like? Your descriptions just seem very out of sync with the money available in the game.

[OldTrees1]

{scrubbed}


Anyways to sum up the useful information:
1) Yes searching for components is harsh just like (and probably more so) than other characters starting without gear at low level.
2) But some players might like the extra challenge your idea(starting without equipment) would bring. Check with your players first to see if they would enjoy it. If they would enjoy it then go right ahead. If they are fine with lack of gear but not with lack of components, then let them ignore components during that segment (maybe with the Eschew Materials feat, maybe with a component pouch, maybe with a hand wave). If they would not enjoy it, then table it for a group that would.

[jedipotter]

Again, to some. Not to all. If this is the sort of play experience the OP wants, good for him, but it sounds like he's going for gritty rather than accountanty.

Generally ''accountability'' goes with ''nitty gritty''. Gritty is having just five arrows in your quiver, the other side is Legolas with his Awesome Plot Quiver of Infinite Arrows!



See, I had assumed, from the fact that you've accused players of trying to go solo when they had perfectly good opportunities to buy components, that you'd granted players who stay within the system the capacity to buy components and not spontaneously lose them. If you're stripping those components away, or denying the players time to buy them, then stopping the players from questing for them loops back around to absurd, even when they're close to a quest.

It's complicated.



To set this more along a spectrum, the more you restrict the ability of the players to buy and maintain components, the more absurd it becomes to restrict the ability to quest for them and take up time doing so. So, if the players are literally always standing right outside a dragon's lair, then it's absurd to stop them from finding components when outside a dragon's lair, and if they often hang out around town where components are plentiful, then restricting questing outside the lair becomes somewhat reasonable.

It's more about pacing. A lot of game styles do the ''15 minutes of adventure'' and then ''rest for a week''. So the PC's are always in tip top condition and have lots of free time to do things like going shopping.

My game is a bit more like: The Pc's leave town....and are immediately attacked by two red wizard riding dragons! The fight is brutal, and remember I'm a Killer DM. Should a PC do something silly like ''not duck and cover'', there is a good chance of character death. Though this is a group of experienced players, and they realize they should target the riders and not the dragons(two red dragons with riders is odd and implies some sort of control as no red dragon(almost) would ever be a mount willingly.) The group has a hard fight, but working together and going all out, they kill both riders and a red dragon. The PC quickly turn back towards town...to find the way blocked by half red dragon troops...it's another short fight as the PC just escape. They rush back to town to find the town already fallen, Red Troops are everywhere! They start with a plan to free some towns folk, but then think to head over to the House of the Sun....the temple that they gave the Healing Stone to (in the last game). They don't want that falling into the Red Troops hands. They stay off the roads and go overland, but still have to fight two flocks of foulwings...and spot that second red dragon with a new rider looking for them, but avoid a confrontation. They get to the temple, and everything looks clam.......but a simple recon shows the Red Troops just down the road. The PC's beat them to the temple by just a couple of minutes. Then the PC's ready themselves to defend the temple...

Now, see this is the first thirty minutes or so of the game. The characters have no time to go shopping, relax or hang out. If after the start of the game Sora needed a spell component, her only chance was to grab one on the run, or she might of had a couple minutes to search the temple, if she was not too busy spellcasting....



Y'know, I've wanted to ask this one for awhile. What does the actual itemization of a player abusing an enveloping pit look like? Your descriptions just seem very out of sync with the money available in the game.

The portable undead or construct army.
The portable laboratory/library/alchemist set up
Buying or creation of a large amount of items and storing them
Grabbing anything encountered and ''pooping it in the hole''

The ''money'' in D&D is messed up beyond all hope. Things are way, way, way, way too cheap. And a PC can make a ton of money in no time. And spellcasting is ten times worse. To cast a single first level spell makes the PC too much money. And that is not even counting what the spell does.

And by 5th level, the game is out of control. Every foe the PC's face will have a ton of gold/items, above and beyond the silly ''city'' rules....but that is a whole another thread.

[eggynack]

Generally ''accountability'' goes with ''nitty gritty''. Gritty is having just five arrows in your quiver, the other side is Legolas with his Awesome Plot Quiver of Infinite Arrows!
The issue is, arrows are different from material components. Arrows are one object. Easy to keep track of. You just write a big number next to arrows, and you're done with your archery book keeping. Food is similar. Sure, you can keep perfect track of everything, but something as simple as a meal counter that ticks up when you find an apple can be sufficient for most purposes, because while spoiling is a thing you might want to model, any given food can approximately substitute for any other given food.

Material components are different. You have massive piles of them, and they can't be substituted for each other to any extent. It makes for a pain in the neck that's not present with other resource tracking you'd use in a gritty game. This is why I've suggested creating a simpler material component system. If material components were just like arrows, or even like eight or twelve different types of arrows, that'd be way less of a hassle.



It's more about pacing. A lot of game styles do the ''15 minutes of adventure'' and then ''rest for a week''. So the PC's are always in tip top condition and have lots of free time to do things like going shopping.

My game is a bit more like: The Pc's leave town....and are immediately attacked by two red wizard riding dragons! The fight is brutal, and remember I'm a Killer DM. Should a PC do something silly like ''not duck and cover'', there is a good chance of character death. Though this is a group of experienced players, and they realize they should target the riders and not the dragons(two red dragons with riders is odd and implies some sort of control as no red dragon(almost) would ever be a mount willingly.) The group has a hard fight, but working together and going all out, they kill both riders and a red dragon. The PC quickly turn back towards town...to find the way blocked by half red dragon troops...it's another short fight as the PC just escape. They rush back to town to find the town already fallen, Red Troops are everywhere! They start with a plan to free some towns folk, but then think to head over to the House of the Sun....the temple that they gave the Healing Stone to (in the last game). They don't want that falling into the Red Troops hands. They stay off the roads and go overland, but still have to fight two flocks of foulwings...and spot that second red dragon with a new rider looking for them, but avoid a confrontation. They get to the temple, and everything looks clam.......but a simple recon shows the Red Troops just down the road. The PC's beat them to the temple by just a couple of minutes. Then the PC's ready themselves to defend the temple...

Now, see this is the first thirty minutes or so of the game. The characters have no time to go shopping, relax or hang out. If after the start of the game Sora needed a spell component, her only chance was to grab one on the run, or she might of had a couple minutes to search the temple, if she was not too busy spellcasting....

That seems like a kinda unrealistic level of thing doing, to be honest. However, given pacing like that, it seems somewhat wrong to restrict what little time the players have to work with.


The portable undead or construct army.
The portable laboratory/library/alchemist set up
Buying or creation of a large amount of items and storing them
Grabbing anything encountered and ''pooping it in the hole''

The ''money'' in D&D is messed up beyond all hope. Things are way, way, way, way too cheap. And a PC can make a ton of money in no time. And spellcasting is ten times worse. To cast a single first level spell makes the PC too much money. And that is not even counting what the spell does.

And by 5th level, the game is out of control. Every foe the PC's face will have a ton of gold/items, above and beyond the silly ''city'' rules....but that is a whole another thread.
Again, you're working with vague things. Constructs are really expensive, creating items is really expensive, portable laboratories are... I don't even know what real game impact that would have, and tossing random junk in a hole is DM dependent, where you're the DM. Because, to be honest, it sounds like the real issue is that you're letting players bypass wealth by level. If you're really having problems keeping that resource relatively static, just run the classic Tippy houserule of spontaneous character explosion at certain ranges of stuff having over WBL, and make it explicit. Should solve this problem right quick.

[kalasulmar]

Making spells harder to cast is like the great equalizer for martial characters. Actually maintaining spell components and the inventory headaches involved could help blunt the power curve everyone here is always tossing around as the biggest problem with the game. We are quick to shout the glorious fightan magick of TOB as a way to make fighters better, but to do something that makes playing a wizard feel more like a wizard makes more panties bunch up than a roller coaster.

[CGNefarious]

I think it's a difference of making them less powerful and making playing them more tedious that makes people not like the idea.

[Arbane]

(Massive running battle snipped)

Now, see this is the first thirty minutes or so of the game.

Given how long fights take in D&D, I'm thinking that's more like three hours, minimum.

[eggynack]

Making spells harder to cast is like the great equalizer for martial characters. Actually maintaining spell components and the inventory headaches involved could help blunt the power curve everyone here is always tossing around as the biggest problem with the game. We are quick to shout the glorious fightan magick of TOB as a way to make fighters better, but to do something that makes playing a wizard feel more like a wizard makes more panties bunch up than a roller coaster.
It doesn't really blunt the power curve much. It just makes using that power kinda annoying. Wizards are still casting polymorph, but they need to make an extra tiny change on their sheet to do it. And, as Grod's law states, with regards to this exact issue, "You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use."

[Troacctid]

The trouble is that the spell component system is designed in such a way that that doesn't create good gameplay. Some spells have components that are easy to find, some have components that would be basically impossible to find, some have no components at all, and there's no rhyme or reason to any of it.

There's a lot of merit to the idea of spell components as limited resources that have to be scavenged and managed, but the spells just aren't set up for that.

If I were to do something like this, I'd start by picking a material component for each school, subschool, and descriptor, and have all spells of that school and subschool use the same components. Higher-level spells would use more components. So for example, alarm would use one abjuration rune, silent image would use one illusion rune and one figment rune, sleet storm would use 3 conjuration runes, 3 creation runes, and 3 cold runes, and so on. That's just off the top of my head, but it seems like an okay starting point.

[Tarvus]

To actually answer the OP question about a low level, low-equipment first encounter: We've run a limited equipment quest before. We were a new adventure team staying in a guildhall when the entire building collapsed into the not-quite-Underdark. Bits and pieces of guild equipment were all we could find in the wreckage. Warblade ended up with a kitchen knife and the caster was ecstatic that he could cast his second level spell when he found a dart board, that sort of thing. At the end of it, we came out pretty decently equipped for the campaign proper after fighting our way through the wrecked guild hall's vaults and through those that caused it. The sense of accomplishment was fantastic, and it was the great start to a great campaign.

So yes, the idea can be great fun. However, there are provisos to that. If you're planning on taking it any further than that first encounter, beyond low level, or not have it equally affect party members, there are some things to consider spoilered below.

That said; It was fun, but only for a limited amount of time and only at low level. Having to track a 5 or so spells with components isn't too big a deal, and an interesting challenge in inventiveness. Doing that at level 20 with a full spellbook is just too many things to be searching for. It doesn't integrate seamlessly into play. Not just for casters either. For fighter types, anything you can improvise won't be able to scratch any monster you'd consider worth your time at that point. A couple of serving trays tied to you and a kitchen knife won't protect you against an Iron Golem, and its irritating to be killed by things you'd otherwise be able to destroy in your sleep.

Additionally, at higher levels the loss of inventory becomes much more contrived and borders on DM Fiat or Railroading. Theres simply no way a level 20 caster of any sort is losing their focus/spellbook/scp to a non-epic thief. A level 20 rogue could out perform anyone trying to pick his pockets. A fighter might not make the spot check though :smalltongue:

One last thing to keep in mind if you are going to do this, is that it has to affect the party equally. If your wizard's spellbook keeps getting stolen, but the thieves never touch the fighters Magical Sword of Awesomeness +5, then you are just punishing that player for playing in a way you don't like. If you don't want players to play casters, ban casters. Just don't be disingenuous about it. After all, while I have a special place in my heart for high-optimization casters, Tier 3 games are some of the most fun games I've had.

[atemu1234]

And it's easy to stop the game from becoming ''the Quest for Spell Components''. Just tell the players they can't do that. And, on with the game.....

Alright, then how do they cast spells?

You know, if my DM did this, I'd ask him why he didn't just ban spellcasters.

Because that's what this does. You're stopping him first from being able to have spell components, and then remove his ability to gain them. Not to mention that the most broken spells don't have a material component. At all.

[Deophaun]

In small doses, it can be fun trying to figure out where your next spell component will come from. But it does wear on you, and very few DMs I've played with have ever done it right. Many of them have the white-room syndrome, where they don't really think about what it takes to make a space livable and so everything is surprisingly empty or sparsely furnished. (Tried looking for a candle in a castle once. Guess how successful I was?)

The PC quickly turn back towards town...to find the way blocked by half red dragon troops...it's another short fight as the PC just escape. They rush back to town to find the town already fallen, Red Troops are everywhere!
And this is the type of DM I wouldn't trust with a game where I had to search for components. The number of logical inconsistencies inherent in an army appearing out of nowhere, no warning given from refugees fleeing or the sound of cavalry storming from the south under a massive dust cloud, is mind boggling unless you're in an epic level campaign... where that army wouldn't be a threat anyway. If you aren't in an epic level campaign? Well, your enemy has the magical power to greater teleport a thousand troops on top of you. Good luck.

Do I think such a DM is going to let me find creosote in a chimney? Nope.

[Threadnaught]

jedipotter, I suggest you take a look at Pack the Pack.


On the actual topic of the thread, Wizards would require Eidetic Spellcasting, which trades away their Familiar, or to kill an NPC Wizard and take their Spellbook.
Clerics would have to get a Holy Symbol of their own god somehow.
Druids are usually fine as their main focus is, well, nature.

All Casters require Eschew Materials or that they murder an NPC Caster for each Caster in the party, to steal their Spell Component Pouch.


It's certainly doable, but it would be rather annoying if you have multiple Casters in the party as you'd have to introduce more apprentice Wizards to be slaughtered in order to prevent the party from feeling useless or jealous of the guy with the Spell Component Pouch.



Sliding back to the topic of annoying inventory management at higher levels. A simple method of keeping track of components at higher levels appears to be to gather whatever expensive components are required for a Spell, as many times as you intend to cast said Spell, and keep the number of times you're able to cast the Spell, next to the Spell in the Spellbook.

[Flickerdart]

Making spells harder to cast is like the great equalizer for martial characters. Actually maintaining spell components and the inventory headaches involved could help blunt the power curve everyone here is always tossing around as the biggest problem with the game. We are quick to shout the glorious fightan magick of TOB as a way to make fighters better, but to do something that makes playing a wizard feel more like a wizard makes more panties bunch up than a roller coaster.
No, what this does is make spells less frequent. It doesn't make anything equal - the spells are still good, and now that you're making them harder to cast, players are encouraged to pick the best spells. Want to cast a cool, lower-op spell? No, says the DM, it's going to be a pain in the ass to do this! Better that you stick to mordenkainen's encounter winner in every single spell slot!

If you have a problem with spells, rebalance the spells, don't be a jerk to casters that don't deserve it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Making spells harder to cast is like the great equalizer for martial characters. Actually maintaining spell components and the inventory headaches involved could help blunt the power curve everyone here is always tossing around as the biggest problem with the game. We are quick to shout the glorious fightan magick of TOB as a way to make fighters better, but to do something that makes playing a wizard feel more like a wizard makes more panties bunch up than a roller coaster.

Have you ever actually played a primary caster? The spells alone are already a ton of paperwork, and god forbid you're a druid, a summoner or pick a PrC with other class features that require even more.
Worse, it doesn't actually do anything about the power unless you blatantly turn "you need components" into "you can't actually get any components".

Turning playing a caster into "Dungeons & Accountants" doesn't make the game more fun and it does nothing for balance. It just kills trees and makes playing a caster without Eschew Materials into more of a hassle than it already is.

[Psyren]

No, what this does is make spells less frequent. It doesn't make anything equal - the spells are still good, and now that you're making them harder to cast, players are encouraged to pick the best spells. Want to cast a cool, lower-op spell? No, says the DM, it's going to be a pain in the ass to do this! Better that you stick to mordenkainen's encounter winner in every single spell slot!

If you have a problem with spells, rebalance the spells, don't be a jerk to casters that don't deserve it.

On top of this, it also means even less buffs for the melee. "No I'm not harvesting cowpies just so you can be stronger - go buy that belt of giant strength already. No, I don't care if it means you can't afford your sword until next level. Oh, you wanted to be invisible too? Sorry, only one eyelash left and I might need it."

[Flickerdart]

On top of this, it also means even less buffs for the melee. "No I'm not harvesting cowpies just so you can be stronger - go buy that belt of giant strength already. No, I don't care if it means you can't afford your sword until next level. Oh, you wanted to be invisible too? Sorry, only one eyelash left and I might need it."
But it'll improve the game experience for melee characters so much when they're forced to scavenge for dung just so the caster can buff them up!

[Inevitability]

Great sweet merciful Hagunemnon!

I leave the thread for one day and it has turned into a debate on whether or not Orcus should or should not be summoned when a caster finds his SCP is empty? Please, people, I just wanted an answer to my question, I didn't want this thread to get locked.

Some more information, this game will be PbP, so I guess anyone who applies would already like the gaming style. On top of that, PbP makes looking through character sheets searching for anyone who possesses some dried bat poop less of a hassle.

I want to thank everyone who has given me feedback on the idea so far, and I politely ask all who wish to continue their debate on armies of dragons to do so elsewhere.

[Zaq]

You know how scrounging for spell components might be fun, if you had players and a GM who were both willing to play ball on this?

Make the players scrounge for spell components, but don't limit spell components to only being what's written in the book.

Sure, you can use the as-written spell components as guidelines, but if the players come up with something else that sort of makes sense to function as a spell component for a given spell, let them have it. In other words, have the players justify why the random little things they find make sense to work with specific spells. (And then, of course, the GM would have to be open-minded enough to let most of the players' good-faith explanations work, even if they were stretching a bit. That's part of the fun.)

It would, as I said, require some commitment and some open-mindedness from both sides of the table, but I can see it being fun if you have creative players and an accepting GM. It'll slow down gameplay compared to just using a standard spell component pouch, but you knew that was going to happen when you started out removing SCPs anyway.

[Necroticplague]

Personally, If I was going for something like this, I wouldn't be too keen on the particulars of what components are had. I'd treat them kinda like arrows. You have a generic "components" on your sheet, and you can get more by looting magical labs, SCPs, or harvesting parts. However, for some spells, you have special compnents that are tracked specifically, like special arrows. Fortunately, the spell rules already cover this with valuable vs. nonvaluable componens. So they'd have a generic counter of "components" for spells with non-valuable components, and keep track of any valuable components. Makes it only marginally more paperwork than they already do, while setting the intended feel.

[Psyren]

But it'll improve the game experience for melee characters so much when they're forced to scavenge for dung just so the caster can buff them up!

Kneeling in the soft mud of the pasture, Gortek grunted - the clothespin had slipped again, prompting a renewed assault on his nostrils. As he raised his left hand to put it back in place, a telltale squish announced that the glove was once again full. His snarl of irritation was almost inaudible beneath the thunderous buzzing of the flies. "At least our wizard is more balanced with me now!" His gruff mutter dripped with sarcasm, matched only by the drip of fresh fecal matter from his glove. Standing with her back to him, having fulfilled her end of the bargain, Bessie's plaintive moo was his only answer; cursing in Orcish under his breath, he returned to collecting her "donations." It might almost be more worth it to be crushed beneath the ogre's club, he thought darkly.

[Vhaidara]

Kneeling in the soft mud of the pasture, Gortek grunted - the clothespin had slipped again, prompting a renewed assault on his nostrils. As he raised his left hand to put it back in place, a telltale squish announced that the glove was once again full. His snarl of irritation was almost inaudible beneath the thunderous buzzing of the flies. "At least our wizard is more balanced with me now!" His gruff mutter dripped with sarcasm, matched only by the drip of fresh fecal matter from his glove. Standing with her back to him, having fulfilled her end of the bargain, Bessie's plaintive moo was his only answer; cursing in Orcish under his breath, he returned to collecting her "donations." It might almost be more worth it to be crushed beneath the ogre's club, he thought darkly.

or...

THOG NO LIKE STINKY COW POOP!

[eggynack]

You know how scrounging for spell components might be fun, if you had players and a GM who were both willing to play ball on this?

Make the players scrounge for spell components, but don't limit spell components to only being what's written in the book.

Sure, you can use the as-written spell components as guidelines, but if the players come up with something else that sort of makes sense to function as a spell component for a given spell, let them have it. In other words, have the players justify why the random little things they find make sense to work with specific spells. (And then, of course, the GM would have to be open-minded enough to let most of the players' good-faith explanations work, even if they were stretching a bit. That's part of the fun.)

It would, as I said, require some commitment and some open-mindedness from both sides of the table, but I can see it being fun if you have creative players and an accepting GM. It'll slow down gameplay compared to just using a standard spell component pouch, but you knew that was going to happen when you started out removing SCPs anyway.
I could dig this, yeah. Just letting vaguely fitting stuff through allows for the level of substitution you'd want, and even if you allowed anything that even comes close to working, the wizards are still tearing through their sack of arbitrarily suited objects at reasonable speed. Improvisation definitely fits the whole grit thing too, more suited to the cited Die Hard feel than massive numbers of specific objects. The real downside though, I think, is that you're still necessarily tracking a massive number of minute objects, because the specific nature of said objects would be key to the working of any given casting. This could even make tracking more difficult, because components wouldn't be able to be identified specifically with a particular spell.

[P.F.]

Personally, If I was going for something like this, I wouldn't be too keen on the particulars of what components are had. I'd treat them kinda like arrows. You have a generic "components" on your sheet, and you can get more by looting magical labs, SCPs, or harvesting parts. However, for some spells, you have special compnents that are tracked specifically, like special arrows. Fortunately, the spell rules already cover this with valuable vs. nonvaluable componens. So they'd have a generic counter of "components" for spells with non-valuable components, and keep track of any valuable components. Makes it only marginally more paperwork than they already do, while setting the intended feel.

This is probably how I'd do it, like Hit Points for spell components.

Kinda seems a little contrived, but so does Hit Points, when you sit down and over-analyze it.

Generally, I find that the dire lack of needed resources is fun on an occasional basis and aggravating / frustrating / no-fun on an ongoing basis. In my current game we give the DM a hard time about making us record how many arrows we have, and find it a source of amusement that we have to keep track of how many charges we use off the wands of CLW (by the time we've used up the two that we have, 750gp will be petty cash). However, my character, at the moment, has just been rescued by the rest of the party and has no equipment. So I will be fighting the Big Nasty with nothing but my wits and class abilities. Lucky for me, the rest of the party is armed to the teeth, so I may live through this one yet.

So in short, "I have no stuff" = fun; "I can never get any stuff" = no fun. (imho ymmy omnbaiaa spsfd)

[jedipotter]

Kneeling in the soft mud of the pasture, Gortek grunted - the clothespin had slipped again, prompting a renewed assault on his nostrils. As he raised his left hand to put it back in place, a telltale squish announced that the glove was once again full. His snarl of irritation was almost inaudible beneath the thunderous buzzing of the flies. "At least our wizard is more balanced with me now!" His gruff mutter dripped with sarcasm, matched only by the drip of fresh fecal matter from his glove. Standing with her back to him, having fulfilled her end of the bargain, Bessie's plaintive moo was his only answer; cursing in Orcish under his breath, he returned to collecting her "donations." It might almost be more worth it to be crushed beneath the ogre's club, he thought darkly.

I approve!

[Flickerdart]

{scrubbed}

[Psyren]

or...

THOG NO LIKE STINKY COW POOP!

Last panel: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html

{scrubbed}

[Inevitability]

Last panel: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html
{scrubbed}

I'm going to pretend I didn't laugh at this (I did) and politely repeat my request to take this discussion elsewhere.

[OldTrees1]

{scrubbed}

[Flickerdart]

{scrubbed}

[eggynack]

{scrubbed}

[OldTrees1]

{scrubbed}


Anyways back on topic:
I can see arguments both for the generalized components(treating it as arrows so it is simple resource management) and diverse redundant specific components(creative players being creative).

[Dgrin]

On topic: I think that unless everyone will be fine with casters wasting a lot of time to find that components or simply using no component spells, you'd be better with the idea of generic "components" or some thematically appropriate improvisations (with an explanation why that old golf ball should help you with casting your Melf's Acid Arrow).

On the second topic: yeah, new twist of the old thread! Coincidentally, I remember that in actual campaign-to-be with somehow close houserules there was an actual dirt-farmer character... :smallamused:
I guess it is the natural way of things with such houserules, just like generic D&D always leads to Tippyverse.

{scrubbed}

[P.F.]

I can see arguments both for the generalized components(treating it as arrows so it is simple resource management) and diverse redundant specific components(creative players being creative).

Especially at low levels, it might not be too much of a hassle for a caster to keep track of individual components. Especially if it doesn't have to be specific, but a notation next to the entry in spells known (or spellbook) as to how many castings of that they have components for. Would probably get old after a while but would certainly simplify keeping track of a spoonful of vinegar eels being substituted for an adder's stomach and so on...

[georgie_leech]

To chime in, DDO had a system that worked fairly well if you're going for generic components. They used a set of increasingly exotic materials for any given spell level appropriate to the caster, with more powerful spells requiring one or more extras that generally cost more to get . Rather than Abjuration needing one thing, and Conjuration another, and so forth, it was Level 1 spells needed X, Level 2 needed Y, and so on. Thematically, I find the requirement of "rarer" materials as you increase in power fitting, and it struck a nice balance between needing to prepare and handwaving it.

[Deophaun]

Personally, If I was going for something like this, I wouldn't be too keen on the particulars of what components are had. I'd treat them kinda like arrows. You have a generic "components" on your sheet, and you can get more by looting magical labs, SCPs, or harvesting parts. However, for some spells, you have special compnents that are tracked specifically, like special arrows. Fortunately, the spell rules already cover this with valuable vs. nonvaluable componens. So they'd have a generic counter of "components" for spells with non-valuable components, and keep track of any valuable components. Makes it only marginally more paperwork than they already do, while setting the intended feel.
I find this probably the least satisfying of all options. Even though it's minimal, it is just bookkeeping for bookkeeping's sake, and I'm not sure what it adds to anything over just saying "here's a spell component pouch." It's the same reason a lot of groups I've played with don't even bother keeping track of mundane arrows.

Specialized components, however, do have a use. An example is the spell summon swarm. Its spell component is a piece of red cloth. There is a reason my dread necro liked to wear a red shirt, and it surprised the heck out of the DM to learn that I wasn't all that powerless in his prison-break scenario. And it's interesting because that's a spell I don't cast that often, but the availability of its component when nothing else was available suddenly brought it front and center into my spell list.

[OldTrees1]

To chime in, DDO had a system that worked fairly well if you're going for generic components. They used a set of increasingly exotic materials for any given spell level appropriate to the caster, with more powerful spells requiring one or more extras that generally cost more to get . Rather than Abjuration needing one thing, and Conjuration another, and so forth, it was Level 1 spells needed X, Level 2 needed Y, and so on. Thematically, I find the requirement of "rarer" materials as you increase in power fitting, and it struck a nice balance between needing to prepare and handwaving it.

Huh. This could also allow you to cut down on the overhead but handwaving components for spells 3 spell levels lower than your current max spell level. So an 11th level wizard could handwave the component for Fireball but would still need the rarer 6th level components for 6th level spells

[Dgrin]

Especially at low levels, it might not be too much of a hassle for a caster to keep track of individual components. Especially if it doesn't have to be specific, but a notation next to the entry in spells known (or spellbook) as to how many castings of that they have components for. Would probably get old after a while but would certainly simplify keeping track of a spoonful of vinegar eels being substituted for an adder's stomach and so on...

The point of substitutions is to have players create random explanations to justify the usage of that particular thing as a component for that particular spell. It will slow the game down but it could add a lot of fun to the game if both the GM and players are open-minded and creative enough. I think I like that idea more than generic components, which simply seelf like just a nerf for casters. You're not adding fun by simply saying: you have X components so you can cast only X spells.

[Flickerdart]

{scrubbed}


On topic: I think that unless everyone will be fine with casters wasting a lot of time to find that components or simply using no component spells, you'd be better with the idea of generic "components" or some thematically appropriate improvisations (with an explanation why that old golf ball should help you with casting your Melf's Acid Arrow).
I've been thinking about arrows, actually - more specifically, the way that archers are extra-shafted by the system (on top of having to pay for their weapon twice) since they have to keep buying magic arrows. I think foci are probably the way to go for both more prominent spell components and less shafted archers. In fact, you could entirely replace the spellbook with a collection of various magical trinkets - a glass chalice for this, a tiny figurine for that... If you absolutely must have the poop-finding minigame, you could require that the caster himself crafts these foci, leading to situations like druids who want to change their spell loadout having to whittle new totems at the campfire over the course of a few days rather than waking up and deciding that today they want to make the rogue irrelevant instead of the fighter.

[P.F.]

The point of substitutions is to have players create random explanations to justify the usage of that particular thing as a component for that particular spell. It will slow the game down but it could add a lot of fun to the game if both the GM and players are open-minded and creative enough. I think I like that idea more than generic components, which simply seelf like just a nerf for casters. You're not adding fun by simply saying: you have X components so you can cast only X spells.

Agreed, the more I think about it the more I hate the spell component points, it's like the worst of both worlds. But if you make the acquisition of components specific, and the records of components generic, that might cut down on the shuffling through papers and poring through lists in the middle of combat.

That way can know that you have enough components to cast fireball twice and sleep once, while still enjoying the creativity of using a troglodyte bard's violin rosin in place of bat guano, or substituting magic mushrooms for rose petals.

[Psyren]

I'm going to pretend I didn't laugh at this (I did) and politely repeat my request to take this discussion elsewhere.

To be clear, my 'short story' (such as it was) was intended to be wholly on topic. Forcing players to scavenge and track components will have one of two outcomes:

(1) the components they want will be readily accessible and easily obtained, in which case the change has done nothing.
(2) the components they want will be hard to obtain.

If you do this, the spells that the caster would normally use on their teammates should fall into camp (1) as much as possible. If they are hard to obtain - or worse, hard to obtain and doing so takes up time that could have gone to collecting components for the caster's own buffs and actions in combat - then they will either enlist the mundanes to help (leading to poor Gortek's stinky predicament) or prepare less of those party buffs, if they prepare any at all. In short, the whole party will end up being hurt because of a gameplay change meant to only impact spellcasters - which is what usually happens when a GM tries to only impact spellcasters.

[OldTrees1]

which is what usually happens when a GM tries to only impact spellcasters.

The opening post is about a crazy plan, the harshest part of the plan is the material components. It was not presented as a GM trying to only impact spellcasters.

That said, it is a good point that the material components part will affect the entire party. So I will change my previous advice from "talk to the players(implied individually)" to "talk to the players(implied together)". They might like it still.

[Dgrin]

(1) the components they want will be readily accessible and easily obtained, in which case the change has done nothing.

I'd argue that in some light-hearted games Zaq's idea of random explanations could add some fun. Not recommended in more serious games though.

Also I'm thinking about swapping components to foci. Something that allows you to cast that particular spell if you have it and will not be expendable. If you find some interesting foci, it could be more interesting than simply artificially limiting spell selection. For example, snow being a focus forces your player to come up with ways to save that snow for later castings or to obtain it again. It's only a rough idea but I think we can do something with it.

EDIT: Here's the better example: you may need living bird to cast Overland Flight. It is not something difficult to find. The player may choose to try to catch a new bird every time he casts that spell, or he may come up with ways to use the same bird, feeding and saving it just for that purpose

[Flickerdart]

EDIT: Here's the better example: you may need living bird to cast Overland Flight. It is not something difficult to find.
It's not something difficult to see, and even then only in some areas. Catching a live bird that isn't a fat, lazy modern urban pigeon is going to be tricky.

I can see druids having various animals as foci for spells though, since they're actually well-equipped to go out and get them, but even so this is a massive shaft for dungeon-delving of any kind, where the native life is either fungus or trying to kill you - sometimes both!

[Necroticplague]

I can see druids having various animals as foci for spells though, since they're actually well-equipped to go out and get them, but even so this is a massive shaft for dungeon-delving of any kind, where the native life is either fungus or trying to kill you - sometimes both!

Coincidentally, under those conditions, overland flight and spider climb become relatively interchangeable. So the focus for spider climb might be a spider instead, which you could find underground and catch reasonably easily. Or, with the right skills, ride into battle (monstrous spiders are still spiders!).

[Flickerdart]

Coincidentally, under those conditions, overland flight and spider climb become relatively interchangeable. So the focus for spider climb might be a spider instead, which you could find underground and catch reasonably easily. Or, with the right skills, ride into battle (monstrous spiders are still spiders!).
Hehe, I'm seeing some kind of focus hierarchy. Plain old sparrows might give you fly but for overland fly you better bag yourself a hawk, and if you want to add metamagic you're looking at a giant eagle.

[WhamBamSam]

{scrubbed}

Back On Topic: It occurs to me (though it's probably come up in previous thread on this topic), that the Changeling Wizard's Morphic Familiar is really good at helping alleviate this problem. It's a source of most kinds of fur, feathers, and excrement that you could need, at least for the low leveled spells that use such things.

"You knew what you signed on for," said Vishar, his face locked in an unchanging scowl that seemed somewhat uncharacteristic on his malleable features.

"I'll be honest," squawked the raven sitting on a rock in front of the changeling, "I had something else in mind when I heard 'wizard's assistant.'"

"Stop whining. The goblins will catch up to us soon, and I need firepower."

"Why don't you do it yourself?" the bird snapped. "It's your damn fault for screwing up the 'disguise and infiltrate' plan."

"You know it needs to be from a bat," the wizard sighed.

The raven nodded its avian head in sad resignation "Sometimes I think we should just give in and let the world kill us. I may not have much, but I do have my dignity."

Vishar snorted at that. "Ours is not a world of dignity," he said as his raven's body twisted and reshaped itself into the form of a bat and emptied its bowels onto a rock.

[OldTrees1]

{scrubbed}

[Arbane]

{scrubbed}


"Ours is not a world of dignity"

(That was hilarious. Thanks for posting it!)

[eggynack]

{scrubbed}

[WhamBamSam]

{scrubbed}


(That was hilarious. Thanks for posting it!)I try. I was mostly just ripping off Psyren's earlier post, but I'm glad you enjoyed it.