I need a "Tier system explained to dummies" thread...

[Rogue Shadows]

That is to say, I need you to explain to me, in exacting detail, why the following custom class is not Tier 3.

I know its not Tier 3, but I am not as eloquent as I like to pretend I am and am failing at explaining to someone why it is not. He believes that there is no question that it is Tier 3.

Here is the class.

Pack Mule
A new class intended for 3rd Edition/Pathfinder.
Hit Die: d8
Base Attack: As a Cleric
Saves: The Pack Mule receives a good Fortitude and Reflex save, and a bad Will save.
Skills: the Pack Mule can pick any 10 skills to be class skills. He gets a number of skill points equal to 10 + his Intelligence modifier at each level (in 3.5 this number is multiplied by 4 at 1st level). Further, he automatically has maximum ranks in Climb, Jump, and Swim.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: All simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, all shields (except tower shields)
Class Features:
1st level - Heavy Lifting. The Pack Mule can carry ten times as much as anyone else and any dimensional bags of holding they have can hold ten times as much as those owned by someone else.
7th level - Beast of Burden. The Pack Mule receives a bonus to all Strength-, Dexterity-, and Constitution-based skill checks equal to 1/2 his Pack Mule class level if they do not have maximum ranks for their level in those skills. Further, their Jumping distance is doubled.

That's it. That is literally it, and actually on a lark I made it more powerful than the original version suggested.

Please, I know you're not my personal army, and I know I've kind of been an ass on this forum before, but I need the help because my head is beginning to hurt.

[PsyBomb]

It is good at one thing only (Skills), and not really all THAT great at it. That defines upper T5, MAYBE lower T4. Reference the Rogue, who is solidly T4 and WAY better than this guy at what he does (plus much better at other roles)

[atemu1234]

It's T4, really. It's not all that good, at all.

[Psyren]

So it's an expert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/expert.htm) with a good fort save, martial weapons and a wagon?

[eggynack]

So it's an expert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/expert.htm) with a good fort save, martial weapons and a wagon?
Pretty much this, though the extra skill points are relevant. An expert isn't tier 3, or even tier 4, so by extension an expert with only marginal improvements isn't tier 3. This character will end up alright at a few things, but not in a way that really stands out all that well. It's the common problem with an argument from UMD, which is that UMD is pretty broadly accessible.

[Rogue Shadows]

Guys, again, I really need some exacting detail here. Seriously. I know it's, at best, Tier 4, maybe. I'm not the guy you gotta convince. The guy you gotta convince is saying...


Still Tier 3. It's pretty much a lesser version of the Hulking Hurler, which can take a Barbarian from Tier 4 to to Tier if the PRC Tier guide is anything to go by. Not only that, but it also has more skills than a Rogue.

Capable of doing one thing well, while still being useful when that one thing isn't appropriate.

[AmberVael]

Compare it to the rogue and ranger, as there is a great deal of overlap there.




Ranger
Rogue
Mule


HD
d8
d6
d8


BAB
Full
3/4
3/4


Saves
Ref, Fort
Ref
Ref, Fort


Skill
6+Int
8+Int
10+Int



Its chassis is directly superior to the rogue, but only by a tiny bit in each category (one extra hit point a level? A couple of skill points? Meh). On top of that, the Rogue can actually make good use of all their skill points, as they have significantly more than 10 skills on their list- any skill points from Int on the pack mule are going to be cross class.
In terms of the ranger, it gains 4 skill points, but loses out on full BAB. Otherwise they're identical.

However, chassis is one of the least deciding factors in what a class is capable of. This is why the class with the worst chassis of them all is still the best in the game. So again compared to the ranger, the Mule loses BAB, gains 4 skill points... and then loses out on bonus feats, on an animal companion, on evasion, and on spells. And Ranger isn't even tier 3. And the Rogue is getting sneak attack and evasion, uncanny dodge, and special abilities. The mule's features are... carrying stuff. That is not impressive.

[eggynack]

How is there any parity between this and the hulking hurler? The hulking hurler is good because it bases its damage off of the exponentially based carrying capacity rules, not because it lets you carry stuff really well. This class is good with hulking hurler, but it's not hulking hurler by any means. It's just an expert with marginal upgrades, as I said. Here's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4869.0) the why each class is in its tier page for tier 5's, where you can find why experts are ranked there. If you can cite any particular reason why they should be considered two tiers over expert, I'd be interested in hearing it, though I'm pretty doubtful that a few extra points will get you there. This is especially true because the intelligence bonus to skill points means that the expert can theoretically max out skills just as well as this class.

[Scarab112]

How is there any parity between this and the hulking hurler? The hulking hurler is good because it bases its damage off of the exponentially based carrying capacity rules, not because it lets you carry stuff really well. This class is good with hulking hurler, but it's not hulking hurler by any means. It's just an expert with marginal upgrades, as I said. Here's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4869.0) the why each class is in its tier page for tier 5's, where you can find why experts are ranked there. If you can cite any particular reason why they should be considered two tiers over expert, I'd be interested in hearing it, though I'm pretty doubtful that a few extra points will get you there. This is especially true because the intelligence bonus to skill points means that the expert can theoretically max out skills just as well as this class.

Right. I must have forgotten the rule that says a heavy object can't be used to hit someone unless you've got a prestige class for it.

On a more serious note, the person who decided to go out and ask for help proving their point doesn't believe a class with the same level of utility as a Warblade isn't Tier 3 for whatever reason, and decided swapping out all the combat capabilites for the ability to lift was a good way to do so.

[Rogue Shadows]

An expanded explanation.

Over on the 5E board, there is a thread, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?390720-So-when-people-say-quot-Martials-quot-they-really-mean-fighter-right) wherein the old Marital VS Caster debate yet wages on. Particularly with regards to the Fighter class.

While there is no doubt in my mind that the lot of the Fighter has much improved in 5th Edition, I feel that it is still basically whatever the 5E equivalent of Tier 4 would be.

However, I am having a difficult time debating the class on its own merits, because those who believe that the 5E fighter is Tier-3 or so keep insisting on using the Skill system and Feat system as proof that the Fighter's lot has much improved. Now, to my mind, nothing much has changed from 3rd Edition - the 5E Fighter gets the same number of skills as most classes (4; the Bard and Ranger get 5 and the Rogue gets 6), has nothing special to do with those skills beyond what any other class could achieve; and as for feats, while the Fighter can get more than anyone else (up to 7, most only get up to 5), the Fighter receives no special benefit from any feat, and almost all feat prerequisites are simply having an ability score of 13, when they have prerequisites at all (most don't).

The Pack Mule was created to demonstrate how little the skill system contributes to Tiers. Scarab112 is trying to argue that the Pack Mule is Tier-3.


On a more serious note, the person who decided to go out and ask for help proving their point doesn't believe a class with the same level of utility as a Warblade isn't Tier 3 for whatever reason, and decided swapping out all the combat capabilites for the ability to lift was a good way to do so.

When everyone has equal access to a given resource, that resource is considerably reduced in importance. The Warblade is Tier 3 not merely because of its utility, but also because of its nearly unique access to its utility as well as that utility being broadly useful. Only the Crusader and Swordsage can use maneuvers as well as the Warblade. Other classes can expend feat slots to gain some access to maneuvers but they will never equal the Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade.

I'm perfectly willing to discuss the potential broad applications of the Battle Master's maneuvers over in the 5E forum. But access to skills doesn't count for much when everyone has access to the same skills, and you have nothing special to do with those skills beyond anyone else.

[AmberVael]

Right. I must have forgotten the rule that says a heavy object can't be used to hit someone unless you've got a prestige class for it.
The pack mule's feature is to carry lots of stuff. Not to hit people with stuff and deal lots of damage with it. Being able to lift something does not equal the ability to effectively wield that something. Just because the pack mule can pick up a car doesn't mean they won't fall over if they swing it at someone and end up unbalancing themselves because it weighs several times more than they do.

The only thing that really doesn't make sense here is that they can lift something so absurdly bigger and heavier than them in the first place, but that's what the feature lets them do, so... don't overthink it too much, I suppose. Just roll with the mechanics (which let them carry more and no more than that).


On a more serious note, the person who decided to go out and ask for help proving their point doesn't believe a class with the same level of utility as a Warblade isn't Tier 3 for whatever reason, and decided swapping out all the combat capabilites for the ability to lift was a good way to do so.

The idea that Warblade isn't tier 3 is more common than you seem to think.
Also, that's a really poor interpretation of the argument.

[Seerow]

He's right that it is great with Hulking Hurler... but it serves as a one level dip to make the Hurler more powerful, not actually a remotely useful class on its own.


Also I know I would be annoyed playing this class as a human or anything with an int mod and being forced to take a bunch of cross class skills, because I get exactly 10 skills per level and 10 skills as class skills.

[Rogue Shadows]

He's right that it is great with Hulking Hurler...

He didn't say that it was great with Hulking Hurler, he said that the class was, in its own right, comparable to the Hulking Hurler.


Also I know I would be annoyed playing this class as a human or anything with an int mod and being forced to take a bunch of cross class skills, because I get exactly 10 skills per level and 10 skills as class skills.

Amusingly, I gave the 3rd Edition version of the class an absurd amount of skills in order to reflect how the skill system works in 5th Edition, back in 3rd Edition. If I was being more honest to the intent of the 5th Edition version of the class, in which it receives the average/minimum number of skills, then the 3rd Edition version of the class would only get 4 + Int skills at best, albeit still with its skill choice, but it would not get automatic ranks in Climb, Jump, and Swim.

[Psyren]

Right. I must have forgotten the rule that says a heavy object can't be used to hit someone unless you've got a prestige class for it.

You certainly can, however without HH's class feature you will have the deck stacked pretty heavily against you.

For starters, you are throwing, so that means a hard maximum of 5 range increments.
Second, the thrown object is an improvised weapon, which means a range incremement of 10 feet.
Third, it is a full-round action to throw anything that needs 2 hands and isn't designed to be thrown (for instance, any large object being used as an improvised thrown weapon), so you don't get iteratives and also can't move.
Finally, you are taking a -4 to hit right off the bat, and then a cumulative -2 on top of that for every 10ft. away your target is.

Combined, these factors make ranged combat almost out of the question. You can't stay outside charge range, and even trying makes hitting almost impossible. You can't even fire one shot and then move to safety save for a 5-foot step, and even if you could, you can't fire iteratives anyway, not that they'd hit. Hulking Hurler's strength (no pun intended) is the ability to mitigate or ignore these limitations.

[eggynack]

Right. I must have forgotten the rule that says a heavy object can't be used to hit someone unless you've got a prestige class for it.
Heavy objects are fine. The problem is big objects, and unless you're using some ultra-dense object cheese, the two tend to be one in the same. This is on top of the issues Psyren has noted.

[Troacctid]

Warblades are really, really good at melee combat. They have 4 + Int skill points per level as well as Int synergy and a good skill list, so they have solid skill options. They also have access to maneuvers and stances with noncombat applications, such as Mountain Hammer and Hunter's Sense, to give them added versatility.

This Pack Mule class has good skills, but that's it. They get nothing else. What do they do in combat? Combat is a major part of the game and their class gives them nothing at all to help contribute in a fight. And the way the skill economy is set up in 3.5, those skill points don't go as far as you'd like, since so many skills are split into multiple parts--like say you want to be a stealthy scout, you need Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, and Search. That's half your skills right there. Or you want to be a Knowledge monkey? If you want to max all your Knowledges, you're spending every single one of your skill points on them.

It is significantly worse than the 5e Fighter. The 5e Fighter has some skills and is good at fighting. This guy has some skills and is bad at fighting.

[Grod_The_Giant]

He's capable of one thing (skills), and not that well-- as others have noted, you'll likely wind up with more points than class skills, and you lack abilities like Bardic Knack and Cunning Insight that help you really round out the skillmonkey role. You can optomize and rock out diplomancy or iajatsu focus, but that's about it (See: Expert). Similarly, carrying capacity: he's very good at it, but it's not actually something that's useful to be good at, both because of the ease of alternatives (wagons, floating disks, extradimensional storage space, etc) and because of how many DMs tend to be lenient on such things.

What was the definition of T5 again?

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I don't see why T4 is such a bad thing. T3/T4 is where most games ideally play out anyway, and if you curtail a couple of spells that's where 5e is.

The pack mule as an actual class to focus on is clearly T5 in all cases except when, for some reason, the game revolves around carrying things. Then it's T4. Also, skills are overrated in 3e, and proficiencies are even worse in 5e due to slow scaling, so there's that.

[TheIronGolem]

Heavy objects are fine. The problem is big objects, and unless you're using some ultra-dense object cheese, the two tend to be one in the same.

What, you mean your characters don't carry a bag full of slivers from a neutron star?

[13_CBS]

A useful test for whether the Packmule is in Tier 3 is to do what JaronK himself did and hypothesize about how the Packmule would fare in a variety of common adventuring situations. For example, let's take a Font of Inspiration Factotum with Iaijutsu Focus (uncontroversially Tier 3) and compare it to the Packmule.

Scenario 1: a dragon's lair filled with traps with an angry dragon at the end (i.e. traps + combat)

Factotum: the Factotum can use his large bevy of effective skills to mitigate any traps he sees--he could Jump or Climb around a trap, Swim through aquatic obstacles, Balance across narrow bridges, Disarm traps, etc. and he'd do all of that well because his Int-instead-of-Strength-or-Dexterity class feature plus his ability to add his class level to a skill check makes him very SAD and very likely to pass skill checks. This is before getting into his bevy of spells and any scrolls and wands at his disposal (UMD). In combat, he will pull is weight by dishing out good damage with Iaijutsu, perhaps supplemented by dips/feats used to acquire Maneuvers. Even without Iaijutsu Focus, he can use spells and add his Int to damage, and to hit, and/or apply Sneak Attack, so as to not be useless in combat.
Conclusion: The Factotum is likely to be able to meaningfully contribute in all encounters in the dragon's lair.

Packmule: If the Packmule's limited skill selection was chosen with dungeoneering in mind, he may have enough Skills taken as class skills to help him overcome traps in the dragon's lair. However, he may end up being MAD due to having to have decent Strength, Dexterity, and perhaps Charisma (i.e. UMD) to fuel his Str, Dex, and Cha-based skills. If the Packmule's skills are oriented towards another purpose, such as being the party face, then it is less likely that he will have the selections of Skills needed to overcome the traps in the dungeon. Unlike the Factotum (or indeed most other Tier 3s), the Packmule does not have innate spellcasting to fall back on if the obstacle cannot be overcome with just Skills, so if he comes across, say, a magical trap that can't be/is extremely difficult to disarm, then the Packmule may not be able to contribute. If the Packmule is lucky/his player has good foresight, he may have a magical item for the job (UMD), but then we don't put Rogues in Tier 3 for being able to do the exact same, so I don't see why we should do the same for the Packmule. As for the dragon, whether or not the Packmule can meaningfully contribute to the combat relies on how the rules for wielding immensely heavy, and presumably sizable, objects in combat play out--if the thread is to be believed, the Packmule may be able to do incredible damage per hit, but is unlikely to be able to hit at all. If the Packmule is unable to wield his luggage in this fashion, then he's stuck being a 3/4 BAB mundane melee, in a world where 3/4 BAB not-quite mundane melee (Monks) are Tier 5.
Conclusion: The Packmule may be able to contribute meaningfully for some encounters in the dragon's lair, though not very well in the ones it can.

Scenario 2: party must infiltrate an enemy city, meet up with resistance leaders, and convince them to do something
Factotum: Since the Factotum can use his Int and his class levels to boost his Hide and Move Silently checks, getting past regular, mundane guards will be no problem (and Factotums aren't likely to run around in heavy armor anyway). More difficult/complex detection systems can be overcome with the Factotum's bevy of spells (Invisibility, Silence, and Charm, among many others). A Factotum built for infiltration and combat may run a bit short on social Skills, but his ability to add his class levels to skill checks plus Enchantment spells are likely to enable him to meaningfully contribute to social encounters.
Conclusion: The Factotum is likely to be able to meaningfully contribute to most encounters in this scenario.

Packmule: As with Scenario 1, if the Packmule is lucky his 10 skills may include infiltration skills. If he is not so lucky, then he will be about as useful for infiltration as a plate-clad Fighter--perhaps less, since the Packmule is less likely to be as good a combatant. If the Packmule comes across more difficult/complex detection systems (animals with Scent, Alarm spells, detection via telepathy, etc.), then unless he is fortunate enough to have both UMD and the right magical item, the Packmule is unlikely to be able to overcome said detection systems. Upon meeting the social encounters, the Packmule may have difficulty having enough points in the social skills to contribute, especially if the Packmule was not built to do so. If he is fortunate to have an appropriate magical item on hand (Hat of Disguise, Wand/Scroll that boosts skills, etc.), then he may be able to contribute.
Conclusion: The Packmule may be able to contribute meaningfully for some parts of the infiltration stage, though it will depend on the nature of the encounters. A Packmule specced for social encounters will be able to contribute meaningfully for the social stage--if not, he is unlikely to be able to contribute.

Scenario 3: fortify the village/town against the incoming bandit party/army
Factotum: Between the abovementioned stealth and spells, the Factotum can serve in intelligence (scout out the enemy), sabotage (destroy their supplies), and assassination (sneak in and kill the bandit leader). He could also convince the villagers to stand their ground (social skills), and fight in the frontlines if need be.
Conclusion: The Factotum is able to contribute meaningfully in a large variety of ways at multiple phases in this scenario.

The Packmule: The Packmule could certainly help lug supplies and materials around--if anything, this is his chance to shine. Unless he happened to have been built for infiltration, however, he will have difficulty providing intelligence and sabotage, and assassinating someone with a 5 ton piece of luggage...while perhaps not impossible, certainly would be difficult if the target isn't sleeping (note that the Factotum does not need to rely on the target being asleep or help from the DM (i.e. "the bandit leader happens to be standing below a giant boulder sitting precariously on the cliff") to take out his target). The Packmule could convince the villagers to stand their ground if he has enough points to throw into the social skills, but depending on how luggage-wielding rules in combat are resolved, he may not be able to do much once the fighting starts.
Conclusion: The Packmule may be able to contribute meaningfully for some phases of the scenario, but is unlikely to be able to contribute meaningfully in other phases of the scenario.
-

Overall, whether or not a Packmule will be useful in a given encounter seems to rely largely on...

1) Do the Packmule's 10 skills happen to be appropriate for the encounter?
2) Does the Packmule have UMD and a magical item handy appropriate for the encounter?
3) Is the game of the sort and at the level where Skills can meaningfully contribute to overcoming an encounter?

Granted, it's been some time since I've played 3.5, so perhaps it's possible to build--at a reasonable level of optimization--a Packmule with the proper stats and skill selection so that he can be good at both skill-based sneaking and skill-based socializing. If luggage-wielding rules work out in his favor, the same Packmule character might actually be able to hold his own in all 3 above scenarios. That said, the Packmule still falls very short of the Factotum--the same Factotum character could run through the 3 above scenarios and meaningfully contribute in all three without having to be too careful with his build.

This seems to indicate that the Packmule will be, at best, a Tier 4, and even that is being very generous. It's much more likely that the Packmule deserves to be in Tier 5.

[Chronos]

So am I really the only one who noticed that this is Nodwick: The Class?

But yeah, this thing is Tier 5, or maybe 4 if you're really good at optimizing your skills. It's got two things going for it: Carrying stuff, and skills. Carrying stuff is useless: A Heward's Handy Haversack can carry everything the typical adventurer would ever need, and before you can afford one of those, you can just get a literal pack mule. So that leaves skills. Here, the logical comparison is the rogue. Which is better at skills, the rogue or the pack mule?

Well, the pack mule can get class skills that the rogue can't, but... which skills would those be, again? Most of the skills you'd be picking, the rogue probably gets anyway, and there's only so much you can do with Iaijutsu Focus or Autohypnosis. And the rogue certainly gets more class skills, which is relevant if you have extra skill points due to Int or being human, or if you want to put one point each into all of the trained-only skills. This is perhaps a slight edge to the mule, but only a slight one.

Next up, the number of skill points. This looks like an easy comparison: 10 is more than 8, so the pack mule is better. But when combined with the number of class skills, it's not actually all that much better: Given an Int of, say, 14 (a reasonable value for a rogue), the rogue and the mule can both max out the same number of skills. Make them human, or bump Int up to 16, and the rogue can actually max out more. So again, the greater number of skill points is again an edge to the mule, but only a slight one.

And then, there are class features that improve skills. The rogue has Trapfinding, which is essential for several of the tasks expected of a skillmonkey (including those in the trapped-dragon's-lair hypothetical). The rogue also eventually gets Skill Mastery, which makes skills far more reliable. The mule, meanwhile, gets absolutely nothing. This is a clear and major edge for the rogue.

So put it all together, and the mule is best at something that's worthless, and decent at something useful, but still not as good at that something useful as the existing class that's designed for that. That right there puts it at Tier 5: Only good at one thing, and only moderately good at that. Or, comparing it to the rogue, it's somewhat behind in one area, and far behind in all others: It doesn't have Sneak Attack, or Evasion, or anything else rogues get. That says that it's at best the same tier as rogues, and probably lower. Again, Tier 5.