How do you play a support caster in 5E?

[charlesk]

So in the campaign I am playing in we have had a number of player conflicts, and some of the issues were associated with min/maxxers all trying to do as much damage as possible. I wanted to break out of this mold, and in part, did so by creating a bard-based character that would be oriented not around direct damage as much as indirect support -- buffing, debuffing, crowd control, healing, etc. It was a cool concept complete with a backstory and I really liked putting it together.

Until I tried using it. And then I ran head-long into the brick wall known as "concentration".

Without realizing it 80% of the spells I picked require concentration. Nearly every buff, every debuff, every illusion, every support or utility spell of any sort with rare exceptions (Mirror Image) requires concentration. So I can do a lot of things. But only one at a time.

So I can cast Faerie Fire, great! Oh, now you can't do anything else. Sorry, no Invisibility for you. No Fly. Not even Heroism, a level 1 buff that just gives a few temporary HP to one character? So all I do is cast one, and then my ability to provide support is almost completely curtailed.

It's almost as if spell slots don't even matter, because the real "resource" is concentration to which I am limited to only one with no options to change it. The mechanism doesn't even make logical sense in many cases. And I am still low-level, what happens when I have 25+ spell slots, am I going to be forced just to take blasting spells because everything else requires "concentration"?

I get the idea of not wanting spellcasters to be uber-powerhouses with dozens of buffs and effects. But they seem to have gone too far. Because all I can do now is keep one effect up, and then I'm sitting at the back pew-pewing with a cantrip. It's dull and cookie-cutter and I hate it.

I recently DMed and it was just as bad with caster bad-guys there.

Am I missing something? Because this is really making me hate 5E where almost nothing else has. Forcing all arcanes into being blasters because everything else can only be done one at a time is not a step forward in my book.

I realize the DM can override this and he's indicated a willingness to work with me on this. I am just curious how others handle this either as players or DMs.

Thanks.

[Ashrym]

Concentration is a brutal restriction. Don't forget, it also applies to any spell with a casting time greater than one action, including rituals, and readied actions using spells.

The biggest selling feature for blindness / deafness is that it applies to a wide variety of targets and doesn't take concentration. Watching for spells like that, keeping the list of concentration spells down in the spell selection because it's generally one per encounter, and keeping in mind that long duration concentration spells aren't as long as a person thinks will help during planning.

Concentration doesn't need to be managed. Players need to make the best choice in the right one for the current challenge. Once a person gets used to it then it feels normal after a while.

The real trick to it is in having multiple casters stacking group concentration effects. For example, a bard or sorcerer cannot cast invisibility and enhance ability simultaneously, but they can cast them on the same target together.

Generally, pick either a party buff or an opponent debuff, and use concentration for it, and use actions for other things. A person can, for example, cast heroism on the fighter to help keep him alive, spend actions on vicious mockery to also help keep him alive as he is attacked with disadvantage, and save the bonus action to use healing word or renew bardic inspiration if needed.

I generally find debuffing and hitting enemies with status effects as the best use of my concentration as a bard, and letting a paladin or cleric buff the group.

Hope that helps.

[Pex]

{scrubbed}

[cZak]

I think the new system is pretty interesting.
We've played maybe five mid-Skull n Shackles sessions with the new system. We converted when 5e came out.

It was fairly rare for an encounter to last more than five rounds pre-5e.
Most spells requiring concentration last one minute. Being limited to a single ongoing spell just requires better tactical consideration than strategic; what helps in the immediate vice covering the long term.
I think this reasonably reduces the overwhelming Batman-wizard & CoD-zilla.
You can still put up a buff, maintain concentration on that, and cast instantaneous spells (cantrip blasts; Chill touch, Eldritch blast, Radiant blast) for comparable damage to the melees.


The 'melees' get multiple attacks at higher levels, but your spells have secondary effects.
-Eldritch blast is a force effect. I don't think anything has Resistance to force damage.
-Chill touch blocks the target from regaining hit points.

And cantrip damage advances. I don't think 'hitting it with a stick' advances the die in damage. This somewhat mitigates the multi-attacks.


And I think this also mitigates the '5 minute day adventure' past the mid levels (5+)
You do get a lot of spell slots. But you only cast 2 or 3 per encounter means you're not firing all barrels and needing 8 hours to reload.

[Edge of Dreams]

The other thing you can do as a support caster is look for ways to use spells outside of combat that let you avoid battles, save time and money, or gain an advantage over your foes before the battle even starts.

Classic example: use an illusion spell to set up an ambush, then drop it for another concentration spell once the fight starts.

[Pex]

Alright, I must be tired and not thinking clearly. I'll reword and extrapolate my point.

I agree with the OP. It's obvious 5E is meant to cut down on the power level of 3E magic. There is nothing wrong in having limits on spellcasting. However, there is a thing as going too far. The Concentration mechanic is too far. Buffing is almost useless. Buffing has been reduced to a one round effect, maybe you'll get a second round, good luck with getting that third. Cast any buff or debuff spell enemies care about, get hit with Magic Missile, Fireball, Lighting Bolt, or name your spell. If you seriously want to play a buffer, including self-buff, you're forced to take two feats - War Caster and Resilient (Con), so forget about increasing your ability scores for a long while. Variant Human has a slight edge. If the wizard casts Fly on the rogue, the rogue best be praying the wizard never gets hit. It's not just spell damage. Getting hit in the face with pointy sticks means a lot. Their solution to CoDzilla was to say no melee fighting at all.

The one Concentration spell only is punishing. Facing a red dragon? Only one party member per spellcaster gets resistance to fire, and it will be a really generous spellcaster if he doesn't choose himself. By the way, no one is flying since the wizard is resisting, so you better have magic items that let you do it. But it's 5E, magic items are "optional". Barbarian, no Great Weapon Fighting for you. Have a bow handy?

The problem is people yelled so much about 3E buffing. On one hand you have people who screamed about CoDzilla and godwizards buffing themselves up the whazoo to devastate the planet. On the other hand you have people kvetching about warriors polymorphed into hydras with flying and DR and saving throw bonuses making the DM cry. On the third hand are those who scoffed at buffed warriors, resenting having to do it if they were spellcaster players or resented needing it if they were warrior players.

Solution suggestions?

Number of spells can concentrate on equals casting ability score modifier.

Some spells that have duration concentration should not have duration concentration, especially those that hurt you real bad should you lose concentration, like Fly and Haste, or at least don't have them hurt you when the spells ends, such as Fly automatically giving you a Feather Fall effect and no losing a turn when Haste ends.

All spellcasters should be proficient in Concentration checks by default without necessarily being proficient on Constitution checks in general. Alternatively, have Concentration check be based on casting ability score modifier instead of Constitution with spellcasters proficient on all checks based on their casting ability score modifier. War Caster feat still gives Advantage. Ok to have one feat tax. Two was too much. You'd make a Concentration check for each spell concentrated on. If you make your saving throw against a spell you do not have to make a Concentration check even if you still take damage. This does mean failing a save will be devastating, but personally I can live with this drawback. Have to give a little with not removing the Concentration mechanic in its entirety. For Magic Missile, roll a Constitution saving throw as if the spell had a saving throw just for the purpose of the need of making a Concentration check.

I'm quite aware all of this would apply to enemy spellcasters and am ok with that.

[1of3]

[...]am I going to be forced just to take blasting spells because everything else requires "concentration"?

Healing works, too. Also you will probably need to re-cast your buffs from time to time, because you loose concentration or effects get dispelled.

[silveralen]

Well, bardic inspiration can help you toss an additional buff around as needed, without worrying about concentration. So that's something to be glad of.

But yes, you cannot just buff 24/7, not just due to concentration. Unless we are talking very late game, you will only have 1-2 spell slots per encounter. Blasting spells thus don't help all that much, you still struggle to manage resources to a degree.

Still, bypassing the concentration mechanic can be done to a degree. Debuffs are more prominent. The most obvious spell is blindness/deafness. Grease can be helpful as well.

Freedom of movement comes later but it a concentration free buff. At high levels, foresight and true polymorph can last most of the day or multiple days, but that may not be a huge contributing factor.

Also worthy of note is vicious mockery. It isn't amazing, but it is a consistently helpful debuff you can toss every round.

Spells outside your class can be useful as well. How early you can access these depends which college you choose, but for a support centric lore bard warding bond is a great choice.

Beyond that, a support theme can look to spells like counterspell, dispel magic, and various healing spells to further expand their options.

So it can work, but it does require a bit of thought. There are probably more than a few spells I missed, this was simply what I happened to remember off the top of my head. The other point is you will end up falling back on cantrips, like most spellcasters, unless you go valor bard. There are not a ton of spells to help there (mockery being one of the better ones honestly), so it does mean you'll have some turns where you simply don't have the resources to toss a major support spell.

[ad_hoc]

It sounds like your problem is that you chose your spells without looking at whether they are concentration spells.

Maybe ask your DM if you can change some of them out now that you understand the system better.

Concentration spells are powerful. They let you do great things with limited slots.

There are buffs and debuffs that don't require concentration. They are not as powerful.

You need to choose. You can't do everything all the time forever.

[charlesk]

Thanks for all the responses and suggestions.

IMO the problem is not at all that I chose too many spells with concentration. The problem is that there simple ARE too many spells with concentration.

I chose those spells based on a specific character design. I'm already limited by spell levels and spell slots, like any caster. But support casters have been absolutely demolished by this mechanism, far more than the usual blaster types. I think that's a bad evolution of the game.

Sure I get nerfing CoDzilla. I played one myself in 3.5. But this is severe overkill. It rewards casters that want to do damage while hindering those who want to take a more passive role that removes them from the limelight, which few players want to do anyway. It makes no sense.

And I don't buy the argument that "concentration spells are powerful". There is little rhyme or reason to what spells are concentration and what are not.

More to the point, however, they have made certain spells pretty much unusable due to the concentration requirement, because they are relatively less powerful than other spells with concentration and so would rarely be used. Again Heroism is a perfect example, it's certainly worth a level 1 slot but it is not worth my "concentration slot" of which I get one and it NEVER INCREASES. That's the real burn. So it never gets used.

I'm sorry but I refuse to believe the Shield of Faith is so uber-powerful that using it should lock a spellcaster out of doing anything else other than pew-pewing. (Yes, I know about bounded accuracy. Even so.)

Maybe that's the solution right there -- have it go up with proficiency bonus at 5, 9, 13, 17.

[CrusaderJoe]

I'm building a support character for a few games... Here is what I got.


V.human Rogue 2 w/ healing kit feat (Crawford ok'ed this combo). Continue with Tome Warlock 2 or 3 to gain devil sight and at-will darkness. PC gets hurt? Darkness them (hard to hit) go in and heal them up. Throw darkness around the battle field.

Get find familiar ritual. Help action is what the familiar is all about.

Outside of combat you will be able to grab rituals that help heal different afflictions.

I think some more multiclassing will be needed for more in battle support. Bard may be best for this.

Edit: I still get EB and some good spells to throw around. I like my spellcaster to be a spell caster so this isn't a problem. If I need to up my damage I'll use Hex (concentration) but if not I'll use bard spells.

I think I'll make my own thread for this build... I would like to see the potential for this.

[(Un)Inspired]

The castration of pc magic is one of the reasons I haven't been looking too hard for a 5e game to join.

You say your DM is willing to work with you to correct the problem, I think Pex's solution sounds pretty good. Alternately, instead of the number of sells you can concentrate on base upon your caster stat I'd let you concentrate on you proficiency number of spells.

[CrusaderJoe]

The castration of pc magic is one of the reasons I haven't been looking too hard for a 5e game to join.

You say your DM is willing to work with you to correct the problem, I think Pex's solution sounds pretty good. Alternately, instead of the number of sells you can concentrate on base upon your caster stat I'd let you concentrate on you proficiency number of spells.

They really aren't castrated as much as reigned in with the rest of the system in mind.

They had the same problem in 4e as they do in 5e.

Instead of bringing the game up to meet spell casters the way people love them they brought spell casters down to the place where people don't.

Let's keep CoDzillas and God Wizards but let's make the rest of the game match it. It is possible, other games and stories and junk do it all the time. D&D is so stuck in the past on this it is quite sad... Kinda like how they have always hated digital media for books and stuff.

[Twelvetrees]

They really aren't castrated as much as reigned in with the rest of the system in mind.

They had the same problem in 4e as they do in 5e.

Instead of bringing the game up to meet spell casters the way people love them they brought spell casters down to the place where people don't.

Let's keep CoDzillas and God Wizards but let's make the rest of the game match it. It is possible, other games and stories and junk do it all the time. D&D is so stuck in the past on this it is quite sad... Kinda like how they have always hated digital media for books and stuff.

I can see where you're coming from, but I can't say that I agree.

One of the big focuses of 5e is trying to keep the game simple and easy to run. That's something that Concentration does. It's one mechanic for a large swath of buffs/debuffs. Is it necessarily elegant? No, but that's not the point. The point is on simple mechanics that allow the game to run smoothly.

The main problem I see with having CoDzillas and God Wizards is the sheer amount of details that must be kept track of. When each character has multiple effects going on, it can be a major pain to keep track of each and every one. If the monsters can do the same, the details become very extensive. If that is the game style you prefer, then to each his own. I for one appreciate that 5e makes an effort to keep the game mechanics simple enough to keep track of.

If I've misinterpreted your intent, please correct me.

[(Un)Inspired]

They really aren't castrated as much as reigned in with the rest of the system in mind.

They had the same problem in 4e as they do in 5e.

Instead of bringing the game up to meet spell casters the way people love them they brought spell casters down to the place where people don't.

Let's keep CoDzillas and God Wizards but let's make the rest of the game match it. It is possible, other games and stories and junk do it all the time. D&D is so stuck in the past on this it is quite sad... Kinda like how they have always hated digital media for books and stuff.

While I do feel that the creative organ that spellcaster used to have access to has been removed (hence the term castration) I agree heartily with the rest of your post.

I would love to play in a world with high powered casters and fighters. I think I'm getting a little off topic for this thread however.

I believe that because 5e spells lack the punch and pizzazz that spells in previous editions had, you wont break the game by allowing casters to concentrate on more than one at once. Float this idea to your DM.

[CrusaderJoe]

I can see where you're coming from, but I can't say that I agree.

One of the big focuses of 5e is trying to keep the game simple and easy to run. That's something that Concentration does. It's one mechanic for a large swath of buffs/debuffs. Is it necessarily elegant? No, but that's not the point. The point is on simple mechanics that allow the game to run smoothly.

The main problem I see with having CoDzillas and God Wizards is the sheer amount of details that must be kept track of. When each character has multiple effects going on, it can be a major pain to keep track of each and every one. If the monsters can do the same, the details become very extensive. If that is the game style you prefer, then to each his own. I for one appreciate that 5e makes an effort to keep the game mechanics simple enough to keep track of.

If I've misinterpreted your intent, please correct me.

I like the simplicity of 5e, I was referring to wotc failure in this and their last edition by going backwards. I don't think 4e or 5e was/is a failure but they just went the wrong way conceptionally twice.

If you go the other way, everyone being awesome, then your group can cut back what they don't like instead of creating things (homebrew/homerules) for things you wish you had. Cutting is easier than creating.


While I do feel that the creative organ that spellcaster used to have access to has been removed (hence the term castration) I agree heartily with the rest of your post.

I would love to play in a world with high powered casters and fighters. I think I'm getting a little off topic for this thread however.

I believe that because 5e spells lack the punch and pizzazz that spells in previous editions had, you wont break the game by allowing casters to concentrate on more than one at once. Float this idea to your DM.

The power of casters weren't the ability to stack buffs/debuffs. The power of casters were versatility and problem solving directly or indirectly.

They cut back on that but not as much as people think.

But they also boosted blasting up from 3e so you win some and you lose some.

So now they have a new avenue to deal with issues, just blowing things up efficiently.

[Easy_Lee]

I think the best support player you can make is actually a pure thief.

You can use any magic item that needs to be used after 13
You can take the healer feat and bonus action heal people
You have the stealth abilities and resources needed to get any information the party needs, no spell slots needed
"Concentrate" on as many caltrops, oil spills, alchemists fires, potions, and poisons as you can find. Can also use wands (all of them) after 13, though use may be limited by concentration
DPR is quite good when you need to do it, just shoot a bow or throw daggers at any enemy near an ally for free SA

Beyond that, if you want to concentrate on more than one thing then sorcerer is the only way. You can make a one-target spell have two targets by twinning it, which is a loophole that lets you double haste or double invis. Sorcerers don't get as many buffs (no foresight, for example) so use of this is limited, but still worth noting.

That said, if you want to support your party purely by buffing them then 5e doesn't really allow that character build in the same way as 3.5 did.

[Easy_Lee]

But they also boosted blasting up from 3e so you win some and you lose some.

Actually, I think the most versatile and consistent DPR in 3e/3.5 was the mailman build, an optimized blaster sorcerer. It could swing pretty much any energy type that was needed to blow a creature sky-high, no matter the creature's resistances. Casters had it all in 3.5, which is why WoTC felt the need to nerf them so hard with concentration and fewer spell slots.

They didn't completely fix the problem, since batman wizards still exist. Targeting weaknesses (flesh to stone, charm, hold person, etc) is basically all a wizard needs to do to make sure his party wins the hard fights.

[CrusaderJoe]

Actually, I think the most versatile and consistent DPR in 3e/3.5 was the mailman build, an optimized blaster sorcerer. It could swing pretty much any energy type that was needed to blow a creature sky-high, no matter the creature's resistances. Casters had it all in 3.5, which is why WoTC felt the need to nerf them so hard with concentration and fewer spell slots.


Fringe super optimized single build... Whereas any martial needs... 3 or 4 feats and can deal enough damage to take out above CR challenges.

Uber charger on the other hand (and the equal version of mailman somewhat) comes online around level 9 I think and deals more than enough damage to kill anything in the game.

But without Super optimization blasting falls way behind martials in damage. It is the one thing noncasters were good at in 3e.

Of course casters didn't need to blast, HP damage is the least optimized way to deal with enemies in 3e.

[Easy_Lee]

Of course casters didn't need to blast, HP damage is the least optimized way to deal with enemies in 3e.

That's true. The number of enervations a ray-wizard could fire in a single round, all vs touch AC with no other save, was frightening. And that was just one of the ray-caster's options. At least crap like that is mostly gone.

[Ashrym]

Blasting isn't really boosted. The direct damage spells start higher but don't use caster level mechanics so end lower, and monster hit points increase rapidly with CR. Most spells are the equivalent of a burst of weak multiple attacks at one per target. The total damage can be impressive with the right spells and enough targets, but generally burns through slots fast and works better with one softening salvo.

Direct target focused damage doesn't compete with weapon users unless it's a defensive weapon user compared to high level evokers, eldritch blasters, or sorcerer cantrip spammers.

Damage isn't what it was at one point where high level spell casters had a lot more high level spells that did higher amounts of damage. Limited slots and caster level scaling cut the high end out of that method.

Concentration spells that debuff and apply status effects are some of the best spells. Hold monster or hypnotic pattern work well.

Concentration might seem extreme for some spells that don't look that strong, but it does a couple of things. First, it prevents unexpected overpowered combinations; less scrutiny is required with a blanket mechanic and default requirement of concentration whether it's the designers or DM implementing new abilities. Also, it controls pacing better; if a lot of spells are concentration spells then a spellcaster spends one for 4 rounds instead of 2 or 3 in the same encounter.

Heroism was mentioned earlier, for example, as something that doesn't scale and should not use concentration. Round after round it outperforms cure wounds or healing word, however, just in damage prevention plus fear immunity in the same slot. It also scales with multiple targets so bards and paladins have an option to compare with mass healing word in the same slot and still performs well because it's round after round. Because it requires concentration instead of actions, it's like a bonus in the action economy. A 4th level lore bard can, for example, provide 4 temp hp each round to 2 targets using concentration, use the action for vicious mockery to do small damage but prevent more damage, save the bonus action for healing word or renewing inspiration if needed, and use the reaction on cutting words if needed.

Concentration becomes similar to an action slot from round to round. The planning and restrictions are handled by players determining how they want to spend their concentration. The mechanic is very restricting, but it's grown on me as a good mechanism for providing both power governing and an active decision point during encounters.

[Pex]

The castration of pc magic is one of the reasons I haven't been looking too hard for a 5e game to join.

You say your DM is willing to work with you to correct the problem, I think Pex's solution sounds pretty good. Alternately, instead of the number of sells you can concentrate on base upon your caster stat I'd let you concentrate on you proficiency number of spells.

I could play with that. Might even be more multiclassing friendly.

[cobaltstarfire]

My character is more of a beat things with a hammer/blaster (tempest cleric/fighter), but for a while she was possessed by a ghost who was more support oriented.

When I played as the more supporty ghost I often had some sort of concentration spell up (most notably sleet storm), while spreading around healing as needed. Although I was still dropping damaging spells too, but tried picking the sorts that would have secondary effects on the bad guys, or would somehow help one of my party members get in a good attack.

Maybe it's not the best example though since there's only 3 of us, so those of us who are magical tend to be doing a little bit of support all the time.

[(Un)Inspired]

I could play with that. Might even be more multiclassing friendly.

Ugh posting on my phone makes my grammar look like I'm having a stroke mid-post.

[Gnaeus]

Another potential houserule is to allow non-casters to maintain concentration for a buff that is effecting them. Then the fighter gets a buff, the rogue gets a buff, and you can maintain a third group buff. They're vulnerable to damage, but it makes it harder for the enemy to know who to shoot.

[CrusaderJoe]

That's true. The number of enervations a ray-wizard could fire in a single round, all vs touch AC with no other save, was frightening. And that was just one of the ray-caster's options. At least crap like that is mostly gone.

My favorite Druid moment, well one of them at least, was when I went crazy high 3.5 CR 32 creature made by the DM and a friend....

Druid 19 with occular spell, spell staff, enervation, maximized or empowered (forget which one) enervation, and enervation's big brother... 9th level spell... edit: Energy Drain!

All prepared due to gaining a feat that put enervation on my spell list and two or three other metamagic spells.

I rolled 1 Nat 20 on the 9th level spell and rolled max roll.

All other rolls were 3's or 4's...

16 (9th levrl spell on first round)
7 (occular MM on second round)(beholder type feat, shoot two eye rays in one round)
3 (spell staff third round)
6 (empowered on 4th round)

Total levels drained = 31 in 4 rounds...

The PF wizard stunned it (level ...12? He died and didn't play again for a while and kept his previous level lol... Didn't hurt much) and I drained the hell out of it. All the other players, in real life, was looking at us horrified. They were all optimized level 20 pathfinder classes.

Me and the wizard guy tend to plat down our abilities and got called out on that. Never again haha.

The DM laughed and I reminded him that he asked me to optimize, he thought me being a planar druid was the only optimized part...

[Tanisyr]

There have been a lot of complaints about the castration of casters. I feel I should advocate the other way (w.r.t 3.5)... casters no longer suffer attacks of opportunity for casting (unless going up against mage hunter...); cantrips scale; cantrips are unlimited; spells can be prepared and cast with multiple different slots, allowing lower level spells to scale;

Simply altering the rules to allow multuple concentration spells messes with the balance the designers were going for and risks making casters OP (again) IMO. If you allow extra spells, I feel there should be a cost. Perhaps a feat that allows one extra concentration spell and maybe even gives advantage on concentration checks. Any thoughts?

[Pex]

Another potential houserule is to allow non-casters to maintain concentration for a buff that is effecting them. Then the fighter gets a buff, the rogue gets a buff, and you can maintain a third group buff. They're vulnerable to damage, but it makes it harder for the enemy to know who to shoot.

This has been mentioned several times in several threads when the subject comes up. I like this. It's a nice compromise that it still limits any one character to one buff spell, but now the spellcaster can buff more characters for those players who like to be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5Zk2vUmjpk

The disadvantage is that warriors will be getting hit a lot and can lose their buff spell too soon having to make so many rolls. It shifts the burden but doesn't ameliorate it.

[charlesk]

I'm building a support character for a few games... Here is what I got.


V.human Rogue 2 w/ healing kit feat (Crawford ok'ed this combo). Continue with Tome Warlock 2 or 3 to gain devil sight and at-will darkness. PC gets hurt? Darkness them (hard to hit) go in and heal them up. Throw darkness around the battle field.

Get find familiar ritual. Help action is what the familiar is all about.


This is similar to what my character is... it is a 3/3 warlock/bard right now with pact of the chain for the very useful imp familiar. But I always forget to use it in combat, I need to change that.

I can hit pretty hard with my buffed Eldritch Blast.. I just prefer not to use it and hate being essentially forced into it as the best way I can contribute.


There have been a lot of complaints about the castration of casters. I feel I should advocate the other way (w.r.t 3.5)... casters no longer suffer attacks of opportunity for casting (unless going up against mage hunter...); cantrips scale; cantrips are unlimited; spells can be prepared and cast with multiple different slots, allowing lower level spells to scale;


All true, though again IMO favoring direct damage casting over support casting.



Simply altering the rules to allow multuple concentration spells messes with the balance the designers were going for and risks making casters OP (again) IMO. If you allow extra spells, I feel there should be a cost. Perhaps a feat that allows one extra concentration spell and maybe even gives advantage on concentration checks. Any thoughts?

It's funny you say that as my DM made a very similar suggestion and it did seem like at least a reasonable solution. However, feat slots are precious and few in this game, and that feat would become essentially "required" for this character concept.

In retrospect, I think that allowing 1 concentration per spellcasting attribute or even tying to proficiency bonus would be overpowered. A mage shouldn't have 5 concentration spells going at once.

Another change I may request is allowing concentration spells to be cast as non-concentration variants that are in effect for a single round without impacting a spell in progress. I can cast Eldritch Blast without interrupting a Faerie Fire, for example. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to deliberately "nerf" something like Tasha's Hideous Laughter so it works for only one round and leaves the Faerie Fire in place.

[Garimeth]

Dissonant Whispers is pretty nifty too. Fire it off, deal some damage and the enemy runs from you. Essentially takes one turn away from the enemy. My Skald is going to be looking for these kinds of things.

[Person_Man]

My advice:

1) You need Proficiency in Constitution and/or Warcaster, and your Constitution should be 20. Sorcerer and Fighter both start with Constitution Proficiency, and both are excellent multi-class options. (Fighter for Proficiencies, +1 AC Fighting Style, and Action Surge. Sorcerer for Proficiencies, draconic armor, and Metamagic. Remember that you can sacrifice spells for more Metamagic points). In addition, you should make a habit of hanging back from the front line of combat so that you're hit less often. You can't be an effective support caster while also being a front line melee build. That's intentional. If you invest in optimizing Concentration and play smart, it will very rarely fail.

2) Some buff spells can target multiple creatures or be cast out of higher level slots to target multiple creatures, like Bless and Pass Without Trace. Sorcerer's Metamagic can also help you buff multiple creatures.

3) Cantrips can be cast at-will, and thus can be used constantly out of combat, like Guidance.

4) Some buff spells don't actually require Concentration at all, even though they seem like they should, like Mage Armor, Freedom of Movement, Foresight, or Armor of Agathys. Splat books will inevitably add more such spells in the near future.

5) Many spells impose status effects or indirectly help your allies in other ways, like Command (I order you to run away from my allies, provoking 3 Opportunity Attacks!), Vicious Mockery, or Guiding Bolt. A debuff to one or more enemies is very similar to a buff to your allies.

6) Ritual spells can be cast without using a slot (ie, without using any resources). Assuming you have the time to cast them, its a great way to help allies set up ambushes or otherwise prepare for battle, with spells like Silence, Meld Into Stone, Water Breathing, Water Walk, Alarm, and Rary's Telepathic Bond.

7) Not all buffs have to be magical. Get into the habit of using the Help action, which grants Advantage, especially outside of combat. Similarly, you can Find, Conjure, or Animate new allies, and have them use the Help, Use an Object, or similar actions. Find Steed, Animate Dead, Find Familiar, and Unseen Servant do not require proficiency, and the last two are Rituals.

8) Some class abilities make your spells more effective or allow you to help allies in other ways, like the Life Domain, Bard's Inspiration, or Thief Rogue's Use an Object.

9) There are a few high level buffs that are extremely potent that you probably just haven't gotten a chance to use yet, like Wish, True Polymorph, Animal Shapes, and Foresight. Its also worth mentioning that between levels 11-17, full casters get 1-6 potent high level spells and 1-2ish useful high level class abilities, whereas non-full casters only get just 1-3ish useful abilities plus some damage increases (which casters get by default due to auto-scaling of cantrips).


Given the above, my conclusion is that I'm fine with the Concentration rules as written. I absolutely despise MMO style buff casting, CoDzilla builds, the action advantage that comes from having multiple passive spells going, and heavy book keeping requirements in general. You just can't spam buff spells the way that you did in previous editions. You have to be strategic about it, and that's a good thing.

[Garimeth]

Armor of Agathys is an awesome spell, totally plan on picking it up on my skald.

The following Spells are all either buffs or Crowd control that do not require concentration, most of which have a duration of longer than one round.

Aid
Animal Friendship
Antipathy/Sympathy
Blade Ward
Blindness/Deafness
Blink
Command
Create Undead (the only summon that is not concentration)
Darkvision
Disguise Self
Dissonant Whispers
Etherealness
Enthrall
False Life
Feeblemind
Find Familiar
Grease
Fire Shield
Geas
Freedom of Movement
Magic Missle - doesn't stack with armor
Mass Suggestion (but not Suggestion, oddly enough)
Mirror Image
Minor Illusion
See Invisible
Sleep
Spiritual Weapon - damage only ongoing.
Symbol
Tenser's Floating Disk
Tongues
Truee Seeing
True Strike
Vicious Mockery
Water Breathing - AOe as it is.
Water Walk
Wind Walk
Zone of Truth

Now as a Skald or Eldritch Knight you can totally attack and cast on the same turn. I personally plan on running Vicous Mockery, Blade Ward, True Strike, or Eldritch Blast and a melee attack every round with my running buffs probably being heroism for the group and armor of agathys for myself, maybe fireshield.

Alternatively you can run Spritual weapon and use your bonus action to deal some damage with your bonus action every round while you CC or Buff or heal.

Mirror Image, Armor of Agathys, Blink, Fire Shield, freedom of movement and Mage Armor are all great defensive options.

Mass Suggestion, Grease, Dissonant Whispers, VM, Sleep, Command, Feeblemind, and possibly Symbol are all pretty good CC or debuffs.

Wind Walk is the new Fly, since it lets you get 10 people, lasts 8 hours, and doesn't require concentration.

Now these spells are spread throughout alot of classes, but as a Bard you get 6-8 spells from other classes, and Warlock and Cleric have ways to get some spells from other classes. I don't mind the Concentration mechanic, I actually like it, but some of the decisions seem arbitrary. For example, why is Mass Suggestion a C speel but not normal Suggestion?

[Ashrym]

Dissonant Whispers is pretty nifty too. Fire it off, deal some damage and the enemy runs from you. Essentially takes one turn away from the enemy. My Skald is going to be looking for these kinds of things.
Dissonant whispers is a tactical spell. It goes beyond just running away because it triggers opportunity attacks.

Wait for your heavy damage hitters to close, which can include yourself, cast it from melee range, inflict damage, target uses reaction to move, everything near it can have an opportunity attack. It's really easy to set up multiple opportunity attacks with it in a group and a solid team support style of spell. It also has that added little perk of costing a the reaction and possibly movement on the creature's next turn.

In a group, the spell can be excellent. Depending on the group it can be absolutely amazing while still using a first level slot.

[Shining Wrath]

Worth noting in this context is bounded accuracy: adding +2 to a single fighter's attack rolls for a battle can be crucial. Which is to say, you don't need to land multiple buffs / debuffs to be making a critical difference.

You cannot, however, win the fight single handed, and that is by design.

[Garimeth]

Dissonant whispers is a tactical spell. It goes beyond just running away because it triggers opportunity attacks.

Wait for your heavy damage hitters to close, which can include yourself, cast it from melee range, inflict damage, target uses reaction to move, everything near it can have an opportunity attack. It's really easy to set up multiple opportunity attacks with it in a group and a solid team support style of spell. It also has that added little perk of costing a the reaction and possibly movement on the creature's next turn.

In a group, the spell can be excellent. Depending on the group it can be absolutely amazing while still using a first level slot.

Yeah its one alot of people seem to overlook, same with Armor of Agathys, which has a super long duration and there is not save against the damage return, it just happens.

I also forgot to include Ensnaring Strike in my list, which is a smite ability (so awesome for a skald) that include a DoT and a minor CC effect until the target saves, and the concentration part of the spell only is holding the charge in your weapon until you attack. So smite (any of them really) then double melee attack. Even vicious mockery or true strike are pretty good to work into your at will rotation. Its pretty easy to make this work on bard, though I think a Warlock/Fighter multiclass could be pretty badass too.

I liked cleric in most other additions, and I don't think it's bad in this game, but other than the tempest cleric I think the Bard is way more interesting.

[The_Hansard]

My advice:

3) Cantrips can be cast at-will, and thus can be used constantly out of combat, like Guidance.


Silly question but since Guidance is a touch spell (range) can you touch yourself?


Yeah I had to pose the question that way :)

[Gwendol]

Yes, spells with range of touch can be cast on yourself.

[charlesk]

Thanks for the further suggestions, I will take them to heart for sure. I am already thinking about spell changes and ways to deal with this system, irrespective of whatever changes my DM allows.

Many of those spells unfortunately are not accessible or won't be for a while.

I have Armor of Agathys, however I have not used it much yet because frankly, if I am taking damage in melee I am probably doing something wrong. I am not super-squishy but I can't play my role effectively in the front lines, as someone suggested.

War caster will be my first feat.

[Garimeth]

Thanks for the further suggestions, I will take them to heart for sure. I am already thinking about spell changes and ways to deal with this system, irrespective of whatever changes my DM allows.

Many of those spells unfortunately are not accessible or won't be for a while.

I have Armor of Agathys, however I have not used it much yet because frankly, if I am taking damage in melee I am probably doing something wrong. I am not super-squishy but I can't play my role effectively in the front lines, as someone suggested.

War caster will be my first feat.

Yeah I'm playing a skald, and we're starting at level one, so by the time I can pick up armor and eldritch blast at level 10 I'll have the feats I need. I'm also not bothering with low level buffs of any kind until I get war caster.

But I'm playing a mountain dwarf skald with an 18 str and 16 con at level 1.

[Edenbeast]

Although I believe the rules for concentration and the limit to one spell active at a time are fine, I do want to propose something that could work for people that find the rules a little too limiting:
How about you give spellcasters a concentration pool. The concentration pool equals half your character level, rounded down. The level of the spell slot used is it's concentration value, so for exemple a 3rd level slot takes 3 from your concentration pool. A level 10 wizard has 5th level spell slots, so with a concentration pool of 5, he can concentrate on one 5th level spell, or multiple spells requiring concentration up to a total of 5 (so five 1st level spells if he wanted to).

Mind you, I haven't tested this idea yet. If anyone wants to try it, then let me know how it went.

[Talderas]

Now these spells are spread throughout alot of classes, but as a Bard you get 6-8 spells from other classes, and Warlock and Cleric have ways to get some spells from other classes. I don't mind the Concentration mechanic, I actually like it, but some of the decisions seem arbitrary. For example, why is Mass Suggestion a C speel but not normal Suggestion?

The fact that the spells are on other lists is of questionable value. Magical secrets is present but that only does a little to ammeliorate the problem with the amount of concentration spells on the bard's native list. Additionally, the list you provided in your post is a rather poor list of CC/buffs. Out of combat, concentration isn't going to be a huge problem. There may be some situations where holding concentration on two spells at once would be nice but those are more an exception than the norm. For instance, tongues is a relatively useless buff in combat even if it doesn't require concentration.

So if we break down the bard spell list we have the following values for concentration:
Cantrip: 3/11 [27.27%]
1st Level: 6/21 [28.57%] - 9/32 [28.13%]
2nd Level: 12/22 [54.55%] - 21/54 [38.89%]
3rd Level: 6/16 [37.5%] - 27/70 [38.57%]
4th Level: 5/8 [62.5%] - 32/78 [41.03%]
5th Level: 6/16 [37.5%] - 38/94 [40.43%]
6th Level: 3/7 [42.86%] - 41/101 [40.59%]
7th Level: 2/10 [20%] - 43/111 [38.74%]
8th Level: 1/5 [20%] - 44/116 [37.93%]
9th Level: 1/4 [25%] - 45/120 [37.5%]

Bard's do certainly have a lot of concentration on their spell list and while it's not so bad (~3/10) at 1st and 2nd level of the class as soon as you hit 3rd level you almost perpetually have a 2/5 ratio of concentration to non-concentration spells. The other problem is that concentration is disproportionately levied against combat spells compared to non-combat spells. There's almost a nearly 50/50 divide on combat vs non combat, 59/61, yet 31 of the 59 combat spells have concentration [52.54%] while only 14/61 [22.95%] non-combat spells have concentration. This is also being generous on "combat spell" and including spells that you might use in combat should the situation present itself, like Feather Fall, or spells that may be best used prior to combat (Invisibility, Enhance Ability Dexterity). If you run a predominantly combat heavy game then this imbalance is going to be far more noticeable.

[Garimeth]

The fact that the spells are on other lists is of questionable value. Magical secrets is present but that only does a little to ammeliorate the problem with the amount of concentration spells on the bard's native list. Additionally, the list you provided in your post is a rather poor list of CC/buffs. Out of combat, concentration isn't going to be a huge problem. There may be some situations where holding concentration on two spells at once would be nice but those are more an exception than the norm. For instance, tongues is a relatively useless buff in combat even if it doesn't require concentration.

So if we break down the bard spell list we have the following values for concentration:
Cantrip: 3/11 [27.27%]
1st Level: 6/21 [28.57%] - 9/32 [28.13%]
2nd Level: 12/22 [54.55%] - 21/54 [38.89%]
3rd Level: 6/16 [37.5%] - 27/70 [38.57%]
4th Level: 5/8 [62.5%] - 32/78 [41.03%]
5th Level: 6/16 [37.5%] - 38/94 [40.43%]
6th Level: 3/7 [42.86%] - 41/101 [40.59%]
7th Level: 2/10 [20%] - 43/111 [38.74%]
8th Level: 1/5 [20%] - 44/116 [37.93%]
9th Level: 1/4 [25%] - 45/120 [37.5%]

Bard's do certainly have a lot of concentration on their spell list and while it's not so bad (~3/10) at 1st and 2nd level of the class as soon as you hit 3rd level you almost perpetually have a 2/5 ratio of concentration to non-concentration spells. The other problem is that concentration is disproportionately levied against combat spells compared to non-combat spells. There's almost a nearly 50/50 divide on combat vs non combat, 59/61, yet 31 of the 59 combat spells have concentration [52.54%] while only 14/61 [22.95%] non-combat spells have concentration. This is also being generous on "combat spell" and including spells that you might use in combat should the situation present itself, like Feather Fall, or spells that may be best used prior to combat (Invisibility, Enhance Ability Dexterity). If you run a predominantly combat heavy game then this imbalance is going to be far more noticeable.

Oh I agree there is an imbalance I was simply providing a list for the thread, I hope as future content is released they release like a new feat that let's you use two concentration effects, or splat books with more non C spells.

The CC I plan on picking up personally is Dissonant Whispers, Sleep, Feeblemind, Mass Suggestion, and then either dominate or hold, haven't decided yet.

The Buffs I plan on running are Armor of Agathys, and heroism cast for the group. I will probably pick up mirror image also.

Most of my other spells will be for healing and out of combat utility, like detect magic, Identify, leomund's tiny hut, things like that. And Dispel magic.

My Magical secrets spells will be:
Armor of Agathys, Eldritch Blast, Windwalk, Mass heal, I think Guidance or spiritual weapon, and then wish.

My average combat will be me using heroism on the party, armor of agathys on myself, and then meleeing, until level 14, and then I will either eldritch blast and attack or viciousmockery and attack, if we are having a hell of a time hitting the enemy I will True strike (on somehow who has harder hitting single attacks than me) then attack. I will CC and heal as appropriate.

I'm not saying that is how everybody wants to play, just how I plan on personally playing my "support caster" in 5e.

[charlesk]

Another thing I dislike about the concentration mechanism is how it overpowers magic items relative to spells in a system that is not supposed to be about magic items.

Obvious example... Fly spell uses a third level slot, consumes my only "concentration slot" and lasts up to 10 minutes. But a pair of winged boots (under 500 gp DMG value) and I can fly for hours without using my concentration slot. To add insult to injury, with the spell a lucky arrow sends me plummetting to my death, while with the boots not only won't this happen, but I 'gently float to the ground' when the time on them expires.

This is not balanced.

[ad_hoc]

Another thing I dislike about the concentration mechanism is how it overpowers magic items relative to spells in a system that is not supposed to be about magic items.

Obvious example... Fly spell uses a third level slot, consumes my only "concentration slot" and lasts up to 10 minutes. But a pair of winged boots (under 500 gp DMG value) and I can fly for hours without using my concentration slot. To add insult to injury, with the spell a lucky arrow sends me plummetting to my death, while with the boots not only won't this happen, but I 'gently float to the ground' when the time on them expires.

This is not balanced.

I think you are misunderstanding the design philosophy.

Magic items are supposed to be powerful in this edition.

Game changing.

If you are required to have them like you were in 3.x then they weren't powerful, they just made you a standard character.

Magic items break the game. On purpose.

This is why you aren't supposed to be able to buy them.

They are priceless.

[Shining Wrath]

Another thing I dislike about the concentration mechanism is how it overpowers magic items relative to spells in a system that is not supposed to be about magic items.

Obvious example... Fly spell uses a third level slot, consumes my only "concentration slot" and lasts up to 10 minutes. But a pair of winged boots (under 500 gp DMG value) and I can fly for hours without using my concentration slot. To add insult to injury, with the spell a lucky arrow sends me plummetting to my death, while with the boots not only won't this happen, but I 'gently float to the ground' when the time on them expires.

This is not balanced.

That's a good point and argues that a good DM will dispense magic items discretely so as to not make casters feel useless.

The "attunement" mechanism does limit the number of truly nifty gadgets you can have.

[mephnick]

Yeah, if you can just go buy winged boots at a corner store, your DM is doing it wrong.

Like..not "bad wrong fun" wrong, just objectively wrong. You can't assume "Why should I take fly when I can just get flying boots??"

[charlesk]

If they are "priceless" why do they have prices?

I know the magic item thing has been beaten to death in various threads. And yes, the DM can and should restrict access to them.

But if I can't buy them in the store then what.. either I get lucky and find them or I lose out? Either way, it's bad. Why make items at all that are VASTLY superior to their spell equivalents?

[Person_Man]

Another thing I dislike about the concentration mechanism is how it overpowers magic items relative to spells in a system that is not supposed to be about magic items.

Obvious example... Fly spell uses a third level slot, consumes my only "concentration slot" and lasts up to 10 minutes. But a pair of winged boots (under 500 gp DMG value) and I can fly for hours without using my concentration slot. To add insult to injury, with the spell a lucky arrow sends me plummetting to my death, while with the boots not only won't this happen, but I 'gently float to the ground' when the time on them expires.

This is not balanced.

IIRC, it requires Attunement. And you only get what your DM gives you (if anything). You can't choose to displace your spell with a more efficient magic item. And the DM can choose not to give it to you if he thinks its unbalanced or doesn't fit into the game world for whatever reason.

Also, casters can change out their spells. So if the DM gives you something that overlaps with a spell, you can change it. It's not like you've lost anything.

[mephnick]

If they are "priceless" why do they have prices?

In case you happen to find a magic item you don't want. It gives you guidelines on what to sell it for, if you so desire. I don't think it has anything to do with buying them at all.



But if I can't buy them in the store then what.. either I get lucky and find them or I lose out? Either way, it's bad.?

You can't "lose out" on something that never existed in the campaign world in the first place. It's not like everyone else is walking around in winged boots.

[Sception]

To those saying martial types should have been brought up to the casters' level, lets not forget that the casters' level was godlike to the point of game destroying in 3.5. And also that they tried bringing martial types up in the latter days of 3.5 with tome of battle, and despite the ToB classes still falling far short of the likes of cleric, wizard, druid, or even sorcerer, a large part of the community still rejected them and poo'd all over them.

Part of the point of concentration is specifically to prevent pure buff casters from stacking up multiple effects multiplicatively. One character should add +1 character's worth of ability to a party, not x N, where N is the number of characters already part of the party. This should be the case whether the character is martial or a caster.

I certainly think magical support options should (and hopefully will) be expanded and diversified a bit going forward. I hope the same for other archetypes, magical or otherwise, as well. But I don't think the starting point for 5e support casters like bards or clerics is in a terrible place.

[ad_hoc]

If they are "priceless" why do they have prices?

Do you mean pg 130 of the DMG on selling your own items? If you owned a priceless piece of art you could sell it. Someone will pay you real money for it. That isn't what 'priceless' means.



I know the magic item thing has been beaten to death in various threads. And yes, the DM can and should restrict access to them.

But if I can't buy them in the store then what.. either I get lucky and find them or I lose out? Either way, it's bad. Why make items at all that are VASTLY superior to their spell equivalents?

But it isn't losing out.

That is the whole point.

The game is designed so that you don't have to use magic items at all.

And if you do, then yes, they will have real benefits.

Your character may not get to level 20 either. That doesn't mean you are losing out of anything. If you wanted to you could start a game right now with a level 20 character who owns every magic item in the DMG.

A side note - I find it interesting that in some threads people complain that spellcasters are grossly overpowered. And other people have the opposite viewpoint in other threads.

[charlesk]

My copy of the DMG, while making clear that rare magic items should be hard to get, clearly says the suggested prices are for buying as well.

Even if it's just for selling, where do these sold magic items go? Someone has to buy them, so are we just pretending that the PCs, who are heroes of the land in most campaigns, are NOT going to be among those who buy them?

That's all besides the point anyway, which is that if they want to limit ongoing effects with clunky mechanisms like concentration, they shouldn't make magic items -- CHEAP magic items no less -- that circumvent those mechanisms.

What character in his or her right mind would ever sell a pair of winged boots for 500 gp? Etc.

Also, while I know being anti-magic-item is very in vogue these days, and I agree that too many is not good, I think too few is not good as well. Magic items are for many players a big part of the fun of growing a character.

[ad_hoc]

My copy of the DMG, while making clear that rare magic items should be hard to get, clearly says the suggested prices are for buying as well.

Even if it's just for selling, where do these sold magic items go? Someone has to buy them, so are we just pretending that the PCs, who are heroes of the land in most campaigns, are NOT going to be among those who buy them?

That's all besides the point anyway, which is that if they want to limit ongoing effects with clunky mechanisms like concentration, they shouldn't make magic items -- CHEAP magic items no less -- that circumvent those mechanisms.

What character in his or her right mind would ever sell a pair of winged boots for 500 gp? Etc.

Also, while I know being anti-magic-item is very in vogue these days, and I agree that too many is not good, I think too few is not good as well. Magic items are for many players a big part of the fun of growing a character.

What we're trying to tell you is that it doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand it.

I agree that from your point of view it's ludicrous.

It's a good thing that's not how it actually is.

[(Un)Inspired]

Do you mean pg 130 of the DMG on selling your own items? If you owned a priceless piece of art you could sell it. Someone will pay you real money for it. That isn't what 'priceless' means.


Can you explain to me what priceless means then?

I was always under the impression that if something was priceless then it was impossible to judge its value using money.

[charlesk]

What we're trying to tell you is that it doesn't make sense to you because you don't understand it.

I agree that from your point of view it's ludicrous.

It's a good thing that's not how it actually is.

Telling me that the only problem is my "lack of understanding" is an easy way of hand-waving away criticism, but not particularly compelling as an argument.

[ad_hoc]

Can you explain to me what priceless means then?

I was always under the impression that if something was priceless then it was impossible to judge its value using money.

Under that definition nothing is priceless. The value of anything is what someone will pay for it. Something that is priceless is usually exceptionally rare or unique and has value that cannot be exactly matched to something else. Historical artifacts are usually considered priceless.


Telling me that the only problem is my "lack of understanding" is an easy way of hand-waving away criticism, but not particularly compelling as an argument.

The problem is that you aren't actually making an argument against what we are saying so we cannot respond to it.

I don't think you are doing it on purpose. And it's not necessarily your fault. It might just be because I'm a bad communicator.


Also, while I know being anti-magic-item is very in vogue these days, and I agree that too many is not good, I think too few is not good as well. Magic items are for many players a big part of the fun of growing a character.

Take this snippet for example.

I love magic items. I'm not anti-magic item at all. I went from 2e to 3.x to now 5e. One of my biggest gripes about 3.x is that the magic items in it aren't special. They are necessary elements of your character. They're just like BAB, they go up when you go up in level.

I like that magic items do wonderful things now. I like that they fundamentally change the game.

They break the balance. They break the game. They are supposed to do that and I like it.

I am saying that you don't understand because you are arguing that magic items break the game. I not only agree with you, I think that's awesome.

I suggest you re-read that whole section in the DMG as well as other ones. Really read it, not just the crunch part. All the parts about how to use the rules, what they are for, when to use them, etc.

Or not. That's okay too. You're just going to continue to be frustrated. This edition might also not be for you which is okay.

[archaeo]

Can you explain to me what priceless means then?

I was always under the impression that if something was priceless then it was impossible to judge its value using money.

While this is true, "priceless" objects are frequently bought or sold. I mean, "priceless" works of art are, at this very moment, being auctioned off for amounts of money that can be described as a "price."

In this context, "priceless" just means that it's worth however much someone will pay for it. It can't be "priced" the way, say, milk can be priced; the dairy knows how much it costs to produce a bottle of milk, but an art dealer can't possibly try and say, "Well, the paint cost this much, plus the manhours spent painting, plus the price of canvas, plus the price of transportation, times two." Instead, the price is determined by how much people want it.

Which is probably why 5e is set up that way, with the fluff following behind to seal it up. Magic items are "priceless" insofar as they're only going to fetch as much as you can get from whoever wants it most.


Telling me that the only problem is my "lack of understanding" is an easy way of hand-waving away criticism, but not particularly compelling as an argument.

It could've been worded more charitably, but you do seem to be under the misapprehension that easy access to magic items is baked into the edition. It's simply true that 5e takes a very hands-off approach to magic items, dumping the whole subsystem into the DM's lap and telling them that they get to call the shots.

If you allow a really open magic item market, the worst thing that will happen is that players will be able to obsolete a handful of spells they could be otherwise using. I bet those rarity figures end up making a decent amount of sense, too; it's not like fly is a difficult thing to access through the PHB, after all.

[charlesk]

I bet those rarity figures end up making a decent amount of sense, too; it's not like fly is a difficult thing to access through the PHB, after all.

But that's sort of my point. If they are going to have magic items that cost 500 gp, they shouldn't be head and shoulders better than their spell equivalents, largely due to the concentration mechanism. Saying that they are optional really is neither here nor there -- they are an "option" that will be present in most games, and they should make sense in their own right if they are included.

I am not talking about a legendary item here. It's uncommon, the same rarity as a +1 weapon IIRC, and more common than +1 armor! I brought it up as another example of how concentration was, IMO, not very well thought-out. Others have also made some valid points about this in other regards.

[ad_hoc]

But that's sort of my point. If they are going to have magic items that cost 500 gp, they shouldn't be head and shoulders better than their spell equivalents, largely due to the concentration mechanism. Saying that they are optional really is neither here nor there -- they are an "option" that will be present in most games, and they should make sense in their own right if they are included.



Antimatter Rifles are also optional.

I also disagree that magic shops will be in most games. The DMG is clear that the game is designed with the assumption that they don't exist.

[(Un)Inspired]

Under that definition nothing is priceless. The value of anything is what someone will pay for it.

Nothing? Literally nothing is priceless under that definition? You can't conceive of a single thing that can't be valued in money? The absolute sounds beautiful. What is it like?


While this is true, "priceless" objects are frequently bought or sold. I mean, "priceless" works of art are, at this very moment, being auctioned off for amounts of money that can be described as a "price."

In this context, "priceless" just means that it's worth however much someone will pay for it. It can't be "priced" the way, say, milk can be priced; the dairy knows how much it costs to produce a bottle of milk, but an art dealer can't possibly try and say, "Well, the paint cost this much, plus the manhours spent painting, plus the price of canvas, plus the price of transportation, times two." Instead, the price is determined by how much people want it.

But the flying boot have been priced like a bottle of milk. 500gp has been stamped on them much like $2.99 might be printed on a bottle of milk.

[Xetheral]

I also disagree that magic shops will be in most games. The DMG is clear that the game is designed with the assumption that they don't exist.

Physical magic shops may not be in most games, but at some point in a campaign roleplaying out every time a PC wants to buy a (relatively) minor magic item (i.e. uncommon rarity) becomes tedious. And so I imagine many DMs will switch either to handwaving the process or instead use a series of skill checks abstracting the process. From the player's perspective this is mechanically identical to having a magic item shop, even if the fluff is quite different.

[mr_odd]

If 5e had been released under the name of a different game, many complaints that people take up with it would cease to exist. The previous editions of D&D have conditioned us to think a certain way. With 5e, the designers wanted to go a different direction than what we have been conditioned. In my opinion, I love the concentration mechanic. I love what they did with magic items and spells. 5e's greatest movements consisted of four things:

1. Mechanically, the party solves problems as a party (combat and non-combat). Class comparisons are almost null and void as 5e is concerned with the party as a whole, not with particular characters.

2. Roleplay has a significant focus. It partly determines what you can do mechanically and plays a much bigger role. D&D is a roleplaying game, so it should have an emphasis on that.

3. Fluid rules. 5e is a simpler and more fluid game than previous editions. It's easy to pick up and play, but it does not sacrifice depth or satisfaction. They compressed rules, and abandoned the style of 3.5 where rules were everywhere.

4. Power is now back in the DM's hands. The 3.5 design philosophy conditioned players to the plethora of rules it had. 5e's design philosophy fights that mental conditioning and gives real power back to the DM.

[mephnick]

Physical magic shops may not be in most games, but at some point in a campaign roleplaying out every time a PC wants to buy a (relatively) minor magic item (i.e. uncommon rarity) becomes tedious. And so I imagine many DMs will switch either to handwaving the process or instead use a series of skill checks abstracting the process. From the player's perspective this is mechanically identical to having a magic item shop, even if the fluff is quite different.

Why would a character want to buy a magic item in a world where the option doesn't exist? They wouldn't even know how to buy a magic item if they wanted to.

I agree that players will expect to buy potions and things of that nature, and role-playing such would be tedious, but they shouldn't expect to be able to buy boots that permanently give you the ability to fly. The characters wouldn't even know these things existed.

[archaeo]

But that's sort of my point. If they are going to have magic items that cost 500 gp, they shouldn't be head and shoulders better than their spell equivalents, largely due to the concentration mechanism. Saying that they are optional really is neither here nor there -- they are an "option" that will be present in most games, and they should make sense in their own right if they are included.

I mean, they don't "have magic items that cost 500 gp." The DMG spends several paragraphs talking about why buying magic items is going to be prohibitively difficult in the default rules.

I also don't see where they're "head and shoulders better than their spell equivalents." Fly is a level 3 spell. You can't steal it off my feat, it doesn't have strange rules about how often it'll work and how long it takes to recharge, and I can extend it to apply to my entire party. It has substantial advantages over an item that eats one of my attunement slots.


I am not talking about a legendary item here. It's uncommon, the same rarity as a +1 weapon IIRC, and more common than +1 armor! I brought it up as another example of how concentration was, IMO, not very well thought-out. Others have also made some valid points about this in other regards.

The concerns about concentration don't seem to hold a ton of water to me. So what? It's an uncommon item that replaces a low-level spell.

Concentration remains an incredibly useful mechanic even in a campaign setting filled to the brim with magic items. The worst thing that can happen is that the characters gain partial access to pretty unimpressive spells. I would need to see some significantly more game-breaking common magic items before I got too worried about things.


But the flying boot have been priced like a bottle of milk. 500gp has been stamped on them much like $2.99 might be printed on a bottle of milk.

Where, exactly? The table that gives you a pretty wide range of prices for items of given rarity? I don't see a price stamped on; I see a system that expects you to treat those prices as a suggestion and to generally deal with the magic item market like the fine art market. They even specifically make that comparison.

$2.99 gets printed on a bottle of milk after the various costs have been factored in, including everything from the cost of feeding cows to government farm subsidies. 500gp enters this equation as an optional rule within an optional rule, at a price point more or less established to make crafting one (after you get the one-step-rarer formula, anyway) inconvenient but possible under another set of optional rules. It's a nonsense number, a gameist number, and trying to understand how the designers arrived at it via economics is a recipe for disaster.

[charlesk]

Again, "it is optional" is a trivial counter-argument to "if it's optional, then if the option is used it should make sense". Especially when the option often is in fact used.

The DM is god, so everything is optional. You might as well say there's nothing wrong with anything since it can be house-ruled away.

mr_odd, I agree there is lots to like in 5e. But I disagree that the simplification "does not sacrifice depth or satisfaction". There is no free lunch in this regard, and while 5e certainly is a lot less confusing -- and I enjoy playing without needing a laptop and a stack of books -- there is MUCH less in the way of customization and creative options in 5e than 3.5e. IMHO of course.

[Ashrym]

Double post removed

[Ashrym]

Another thing I dislike about the concentration mechanism is how it overpowers magic items relative to spells in a system that is not supposed to be about magic items.

Obvious example... Fly spell uses a third level slot, consumes my only "concentration slot" and lasts up to 10 minutes. But a pair of winged boots (under 500 gp DMG value) and I can fly for hours without using my concentration slot. To add insult to injury, with the spell a lucky arrow sends me plummetting to my death, while with the boots not only won't this happen, but I 'gently float to the ground' when the time on them expires.

This is not balanced.

A person needs the boots first. Acquiring a flying mount is easier but still not guaranteed. The fly spell, however, is easy to acquire at fairly low level.



My copy of the DMG, while making clear that rare magic items should be hard to get, clearly says the suggested prices are for buying as well.

Even if it's just for selling, where do these sold magic items go? Someone has to buy them, so are we just pretending that the PCs, who are heroes of the land in most campaigns, are NOT going to be among those who buy them?

That's all besides the point anyway, which is that if they want to limit ongoing effects with clunky mechanisms like concentration, they shouldn't make magic items -- CHEAP magic items no less -- that circumvent those mechanisms.

What character in his or her right mind would ever sell a pair of winged boots for 500 gp? Etc.

Also, while I know being anti-magic-item is very in vogue these days, and I agree that too many is not good, I think too few is not good as well. Magic items are for many players a big part of the fun of growing a character.

Those are in the DMG because it's a DM toolset based on how the DM might choose to handle them. The player equipment options are in the PHB and would be the standard purchase options outside of a DM deliberately choosing to introduce a.magical item via purchase.

Options in the DMG are not for the players to select or determine. It's for the DM. If it was meant to be a standard player option it would be in the standard equipment list in the PHB.

[charlesk]

And as I said, if an option is there it should make sense. Cheap magic items that can be used for hours without concentration (or loss of concentration) when the matching spells require it, does not make sense to me. Saying the DM can change it is true but as irrelevant as if there was a PC class that let you be the Tarrasque and then saying the DM can change it.

I see no point in continuing to argue about this -- I'm not going to change my mind about it and neither will anyone else -- so I'm not responding further on this particular matter.

[archaeo]

Again, "it is optional" is a trivial counter-argument to "if it's optional, then if the option is used it should make sense". Especially when the option often is in fact used.

The DM is god, so everything is optional. You might as well say there's nothing wrong with anything since it can be house-ruled away.

But nobody's saying that; we're saying that magic items were intended to be big, splashy items in this edition that purposefully break the expectations of the system, and the DMG expects you to deploy them with relative care instead of selling them openly at the Olde Magic Shoppe. That's all.


there is MUCH less in the way of customization and creative options in 5e than 3.5e. IMHO of course.

I mean, it doesn't need to be "IMHO," charlesk; 5e is comprised of three core books right now, whereas 3.5 has had more than a decade of development, first at WotC, then at Paizo, with thousands of homebrewed additions in between. Of course 5e is going to feel paltry compared to all that.

A better comparison would be between 5e and the core 3.5 books, but I have absolutely no idea how that'd turn out.

[charlesk]

But nobody's saying that; we're saying that magic items were intended to be big, splashy items in this edition that purposefully break the expectations of the system, and the DMG expects you to deploy them with relative care instead of selling them openly at the Olde Magic Shoppe. That's all.


Fine, then let me conclude by saying I wish they had not put prices, much less cheap prices, on all the items. It stretches credulity to the breaking point to make items that are supposed to be "big", "splashy" or "priceless" when they cost as much as a good horse.

[Ohnoeszz]

To be honest, you seem to dislike that you can't be overpowered, like buffers were in the past. Casting bless/bane/hypnotic pattern is a very potent tactic in this edition. Casting fly and invisibility on yourself by level 6 is very clearly overpowered - if you disagree on that then let me know, but that seems like something that shouldn't need to be elaborated on and it's very important as to what the concentration mechanic does.

Yes they could have better picked which spells are/aren't concentration spells (I get frustrated too when I have to drop hex to use blink - that's exactly why I tend towards mirror image in most cases) but the system itself is decent.

500gp magical items... Frankly, many DMs make it too easy to accrue wealth, but aside from that, the DMG was clear that DMs should be very careful about the availability of magical items. This is because they let you stack magical capabilities - the precise thing concentration is there for.

I don't disagree that there are issues but simply allowing multiple concentration spells quickly flips the issue. I kind of like the idea of allowing a second buff on another character who is not buffed either (but I can foresee two casters in a party creating super-warriors). I think allowing 1 buff and 1 debuff could be okay, but I'm a bit leery of that as well.

I LOVE the idea of allowing powered-down versions of concentration spells as single turn effects and this seems to really help the issue at hand. Making an already buffed PC gain the ability of flight, or turn invisible for one turn is hardly game-breaking. It has a good balance in terms of cost/reward as sometimes you just to do something at the right time. I feel this would add quite a bit to combat.

Finally, I think the best solution for you is just to sit down with the DM and show him the combinations you'd like to be able to do. Work with him to simply drop the concentration requirement of certain spells to give you more leeway. Remind him to be careful in doing it because it could be game breaking for certain things. If done right it would be clean, simple, and it would diversify your capabilities, hopefully allowing the character concept you have it mind.

[archaeo]

Fine, then let me conclude by saying I wish they had not put prices, much less cheap prices, on all the items. It stretches credulity to the breaking point to make items that are supposed to be "big", "splashy" or "priceless" when they cost as much as a good horse.

The solution to your problem is as easy as doing what the system asks you to do by ignoring those prices altogether and pretending they don't exist. This should be easy, since the prices appear in a few tiny tables, many pages away from the actual list of magic items. Or, alternately, you can just apply a quick houserule; raising all the prices by a factor of 10 would perhaps do the trick?

You're essentially displeased that the system offers, as an option, something you dislike.

[Xetheral]

Why would a character want to buy a magic item in a world where the option doesn't exist? They wouldn't even know how to buy a magic item if they wanted to.

I agree that players will expect to buy potions and things of that nature, and role-playing such would be tedious, but they shouldn't expect to be able to buy boots that permanently give you the ability to fly. The characters wouldn't even know these things existed.

Arcana is still a skill... and by the time the campaign had been going on long enough that roleplaying magic item acquisition becomes tedious, the characters are going to be high enough level to have personal experience with a variety of magic items.

Once the characters know the items exist, they'll likely want to acquire them given the opportunity. In a fast-paced campaign that's not an option, but during downtime it's perfectly reasonable for a character to seek out a particular item. Because 5e assumes magic items aren't readily available, this will take a lot of roleplaying to track down someone willing to part with a particular item (or one buried in a tomb, or a crafter, etc.). This can be good... player-initiated quests can be some of the best ones. But by the third or fourth side quest to find a minor magic item, the players and the DM are going to start to get bored. That's when the hand-waving and abstraction come in, because skipping over the tedious parts is good for the game. Once the hand-waving and abstraction begin, the time-investment required from a player to obtain a particular magic item for their character will be identical to the time-investment required from a player to have their character visit a magic item shop.

Not every DM will run 5e with the magic items rules as described in the DMG (if they use them at all), but certainly some will. My point is that many of them will encounter the problems charlesk describes, not only the ones who explicitly include magic item shops.

[Garimeth]

So for now though Concentration is a thing in the game, and magic items are up to the DM. I'd like to talk about how we can best fulfill the support caster role within RAW.

What does everybody think about the Grease spell? longish duration, no concentration, but could be a liability to the party. Also what do you guys think about feeblemind? I want to like it, but I feel like thats a pretty high level spell slot to burn....

[ad_hoc]

Nothing? Literally nothing is priceless under that definition? You can't conceive of a single thing that can't be valued in money? The absolute sounds beautiful. What is it like?

Priceless does not mean without price.

It's a term. English can be funny like that.


Not every DM will run 5e with the magic items rules as described in the DMG (if they use them at all), but certainly some will. My point is that many of them will encounter the problems charlesk describes, not only the ones who explicitly include magic item shops.

Sure, they will run into that problem if they are trying to replicate 3.x. System isn't designed for that. I think they should just play 3.x. It's still a game. You are allowed to play it.


And as I said, if an option is there it should make sense.

It's going to make sense for some people in some campaigns. Certainly not mine.

Antimatter Rifles don't make sense in my games either. I don't think 5e is terrible because rules for the Antimatter Rifle were included.

[Xetheral]

Not every DM will run 5e with the magic items rules as described in the DMG (if they use them at all), but certainly some will. My point is that many of them will encounter the problems charlesk describes, not only the ones who explicitly include magic item shops.

Sure, they will run into that problem if they are trying to replicate 3.x. System isn't designed for that. I think they should just play 3.x. It's still a game. You are allowed to play it.

I don't understand what you mean. How is using the magic item rules as described in the 5e DMG "trying to replicate 3.x"? Isn't the system, by definition, designed for it's own rules, both optional and default?

[Mellack]

Armor of Agathys is an awesome spell, totally plan on picking it up on my skald.

The following Spells are all either buffs or Crowd control that do not require concentration, most of which have a duration of longer than one round.

Aid
Animal Friendship
Antipathy/Sympathy
Blade Ward
Blindness/Deafness
Blink
Command
Create Undead (the only summon that is not concentration)
Darkvision
Disguise Self
Dissonant Whispers
Etherealness
Enthrall
False Life
Feeblemind
Find Familiar
Grease
Fire Shield
Geas
Freedom of Movement
Magic Missle - doesn't stack with armor
Mass Suggestion (but not Suggestion, oddly enough)
Mirror Image
Minor Illusion
See Invisible
Sleep
Spiritual Weapon - damage only ongoing.
Symbol
Tenser's Floating Disk
Tongues
Truee Seeing
True Strike
Vicious Mockery
Water Breathing - AOe as it is.
Water Walk
Wind Walk
Zone of Truth

Now as a Skald or Eldritch Knight you can totally attack and cast on the same turn. I personally plan on running Vicous Mockery, Blade Ward, True Strike, or Eldritch Blast and a melee attack every round with my running buffs probably being heroism for the group and armor of agathys for myself, maybe fireshield.

Alternatively you can run Spritual weapon and use your bonus action to deal some damage with your bonus action every round while you CC or Buff or heal.

Mirror Image, Armor of Agathys, Blink, Fire Shield, freedom of movement and Mage Armor are all great defensive options.

Mass Suggestion, Grease, Dissonant Whispers, VM, Sleep, Command, Feeblemind, and possibly Symbol are all pretty good CC or debuffs.

Wind Walk is the new Fly, since it lets you get 10 people, lasts 8 hours, and doesn't require concentration.

Now these spells are spread throughout alot of classes, but as a Bard you get 6-8 spells from other classes, and Warlock and Cleric have ways to get some spells from other classes. I don't mind the Concentration mechanic, I actually like it, but some of the decisions seem arbitrary. For example, why is Mass Suggestion a C speel but not normal Suggestion?

Great list, however True Strike does indeed take concentration.

[Ashrym]

So for now though Concentration is a thing in the game, and magic items are up to the DM. I'd like to talk about how we can best fulfill the support caster role within RAW.

What does everybody think about the Grease spell? longish duration, no concentration, but could be a liability to the party. Also what do you guys think about feeblemind? I want to like it, but I feel like thats a pretty high level spell slot to burn....

Feeblemind is a bit niche. Counterspell works during a combat although it's several slots, but my money is on bestow curse in a 5th-level slot to avoid concentration. The save to act version is effective enough for cheaper slot cost and effective against more targets. Feeblemind would be better with the spell preparation mechanic to add it when it's effective instead of a spell known that's situational, if that helps.

Grease is okay for a terrain zone and prone effects. I usually ignore it. Prone is fairly common and easy for melee classes. Not needing concentration on a low level slot is a bit of a lure because it's still effective in a low level slot at high levels with the higher DC attached to the save.

[Talderas]

To be honest, you seem to dislike that you can't be overpowered, like buffers were in the past. Casting bless/bane/hypnotic pattern is a very potent tactic in this edition. Casting fly and invisibility on yourself by level 6 is very clearly overpowered - if you disagree on that then let me know, but that seems like something that shouldn't need to be elaborated on and it's very important as to what the concentration mechanic does.

Yes they could have better picked which spells are/aren't concentration spells (I get frustrated too when I have to drop hex to use blink - that's exactly why I tend towards mirror image in most cases) but the system itself is decent.

The large problem with the concentration rules is they're well balanced around a narrow pacing range of short/long rests and a number of encounters per day. When you are outside of the pacing the flaws of the concentration system become a bit more visible. Partially this is also caused by cantrips. WotC made cantrips your go to spell which leaves the very visible impression that you aren't supposed to trivially be burning spell slots. I've reached a point with my bard where I have to have Dissonant Whispers to come close to burning my per day spell slots due to concentration. That is my problem with the system.

[silveralen]

So for now though Concentration is a thing in the game, and magic items are up to the DM. I'd like to talk about how we can best fulfill the support caster role within RAW.

What does everybody think about the Grease spell? longish duration, no concentration, but could be a liability to the party. Also what do you guys think about feeblemind? I want to like it, but I feel like thats a pretty high level spell slot to burn....

Grease is fairly good, if your group works around it. The thing about a 10 ft square is that even a normal melee combatant can reach any side of it (assuming it isn't against a wall) without crossing into it. Reach and ranged weapons, or high movement speeds, make it significantly easier to take advantage of.

From a metagame standpoint, saving off dex is pretty decent this edition. It seems to be one of the saves that gets neglected as CR goes up, making it a decent choice for later levels.

Personally, I think sleep starts off stronger, but by the time you hit lvl 5-6 I'd be ready to swap it out. Which is actually perfect for a lore bard, assuming he considers grease worthy of one of his 6 steals.


The large problem with the concentration rules is they're well balanced around a narrow pacing range of short/long rests and a number of encounters per day. When you are outside of the pacing the flaws of the concentration system become a bit more visible. Partially this is also caused by cantrips. WotC made cantrips your go to spell which leaves the very visible impression that you aren't supposed to trivially be burning spell slots. I've reached a point with my bard where I have to have Dissonant Whispers to come close to burning my per day spell slots due to concentration. That is my problem with the system.

Yes, taking all concentration spells is bad.

No, dissonant whispers is not the only non concentration spell available for bard, even in the first level. Isn't even the best.

[Garimeth]

Great list, however True Strike does indeed take concentration.

This is true, but its more similar to how the smites take concentration. If as a 14th level skald, which admittedly is not most people, I can true strike then bonus action an attack. Good catch though. I also did not realize at the time that I can only cast it on myself. I've decided not to pick it up on my skald.


Feeblemind is a bit niche. Counterspell works during a combat although it's several slots, but my money is on bestow curse in a 5th-level slot to avoid concentration. The save to act version is effective enough for cheaper slot cost and effective against more targets. Feeblemind would be better with the spell preparation mechanic to add it when it's effective instead of a spell known that's situational, if that helps.

Grease is okay for a terrain zone and prone effects. I usually ignore it. Prone is fairly common and easy for melee classes. Not needing concentration on a low level slot is a bit of a lure because it's still effective in a low level slot at high levels with the higher DC attached to the save.

I don't have the PHB on me, at work atm, but I'm fairly sure Bestow Curse is a C spell. If not its definitely making it on my spell list. Grease seems like one you could situationally use for an entire battle, depending on terrain. Its nice that its a dex save too.


Grease is fairly good, if your group works around it. The thing about a 10 ft square is that even a normal melee combatant can reach any side of it (assuming it isn't against a wall) without crossing into it. Reach and ranged weapons, or high movement speeds, make it significantly easier to take advantage of.

From a metagame standpoint, saving off dex is pretty decent this edition. It seems to be one of the saves that gets neglected as CR goes up, making it a decent choice for later levels.

Personally, I think sleep starts off stronger, but by the time you hit lvl 5-6 I'd be ready to swap it out. Which is actually perfect for a lore bard, assuming he considers grease worthy of one of his 6 steals.

Yeah I'm kind of feeling the same way about sleep, but I think any bard can swap out spells when they learn a new one right? Don't got my PHB atm...

See I am playing my dwarf skald in a 5e conversion of Against The Giants, which I've never played, but I suspect will have lots of giants...lol. So with that in mind I'm mostly looking for mental and dex based saves for my guy, with one or two str or con ones for other situation. I'm also going to be the party's main healer, so a large number of my spells will go towards heroism and healing word I suspect. We are a party of 4 and looks like the others will be a Green Paladin, a Wizard (probably conjurer or evoker), and then the last guy is looking at probably an archer ranger, so I should have some supplemental healing from other sources.

Also in regards to Dissonant Whispers, which first level spells do you feel are better? From an "offensive support" standpoint I think its just about the best one. As just a plain buff I prefer heroism, or armor of agathys when you can jack a spell, and for healing abviously healing word or cure wounds.

To the Thread:
You guys think the guidance cantrip is worth jacking on a bard? I'm also thinking about poison spray or shocking grasp to have a harder hitting cantrip I can cast in melee without disadvantage.

[charlesk]

You keep mentioning "skalds" but I have no idea what that means in a 5e context? Thanks.

[Garimeth]

You keep mentioning "skalds" but I have no idea what that means in a 5e context? Thanks.

Sorry skald is a subclass of bard in 5e. Most notably they get a second attack and at level 14 they can cast a spell and then make a melee attack as a bonus action.

[charlesk]

Oh, College of Valor, got it. I didn't see the word in the opening line.

Guidance is IMO one of the most powerful spells in the game, due to it being at-will. I plan to use my first "magical secrets" on it (lore bard), it's good enough to take over a 3rd level spell IMO. (Or alternately, I may go Magic Initiate.)

[Garimeth]

Oh, College of Valor, got it. I didn't see the word in the opening line.

Guidance is IMO one of the most powerful spells in the game, due to it being at-will. I plan to use my first "magical secrets" on it (lore bard), it's good enough to take over a 3rd level spell IMO. (Or alternately, I may go Magic Initiate.)

I plan on picking up Armor of Agathys and Eldritch blast (for a strong ranged option), but I may feel differently after we get started. I haven't actually PLAYED 5e since it was in playtest.

[Talderas]

Also in regards to Dissonant Whispers, which first level spells do you feel are better? From an "offensive support" standpoint I think its just about the best one. As just a plain buff I prefer heroism, or armor of agathys when you can jack a spell, and for healing abviously healing word or cure wounds.

To the Thread:
You guys think the guidance cantrip is worth jacking on a bard? I'm also thinking about poison spray or shocking grasp to have a harder hitting cantrip I can cast in melee without disadvantage.

There's three combat usable 1st level spells (Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Sleep) other than Dissonant Whispers that don't have concentration. Past lower levels, sleep drops off in effectiveness unless you heighten it or you use it later in the battle once things have been wounded. Cure Wounds and Healing Word, of course, are not directly offensive and people will toss about healing word as bringing people up from 0hp. Cure Wounds is less so than Healing Words since Healing Word doesn't cost you your action to cast.

The Guidance cantrip is amazing (+5-20% success chance on an ability check) but it requires concentration which means casting it causes you to lose concentration on the spell you're currently concentrating on.

[Person_Man]

I plan on picking up Armor of Agathys and Eldritch blast (for a strong ranged option), but I may feel differently after we get started. I haven't actually PLAYED 5e since it was in playtest.

I would suggest different spells for a Lore Bard.

Armor of Agathys is useful because the Warlock can cast it one or more times per Short Rest, and it auto-scales up to 5th level when the Warlock casts it. Bard spellcasting depends on Long Rests, and does not auto-scale.

Eldritch Blast is useful if you choose the Warlock Invocations that augment it. Otherwise, its basically on par with the damage from several other cantrips. Also, as a Lore Bard, you'll probably get a more damage from using a weapon (preferably a magic weapon, if your DM gives you any), Extra Attack, and a spell/Feats that augment it.

[silveralen]

Yeah I'm kind of feeling the same way about sleep, but I think any bard can swap out spells when they learn a new one right? Don't got my PHB atm...

See I am playing my dwarf skald in a 5e conversion of Against The Giants, which I've never played, but I suspect will have lots of giants...lol. So with that in mind I'm mostly looking for mental and dex based saves for my guy, with one or two str or con ones for other situation. I'm also going to be the party's main healer, so a large number of my spells will go towards heroism and healing word I suspect. We are a party of 4 and looks like the others will be a Green Paladin, a Wizard (probably conjurer or evoker), and then the last guy is looking at probably an archer ranger, so I should have some supplemental healing from other sources.

Also in regards to Dissonant Whispers, which first level spells do you feel are better? From an "offensive support" standpoint I think its just about the best one. As just a plain buff I prefer heroism, or armor of agathys when you can jack a spell, and for healing abviously healing word or cure wounds.

To the Thread:
You guys think the guidance cantrip is worth jacking on a bard? I'm also thinking about poison spray or shocking grasp to have a harder hitting cantrip I can cast in melee without disadvantage.

Grease isn't on the bard spell list sadly, meaning a valor bard has to wait till 10. Becomes a little harder to justify with only 4 as well. You could go a for an athletics+trip build, but that's much harder with giants.

Offensive support wise, I don't see dissonant whisper doing much. You can drive an enemy away and deal a little damage, nice but unexceptional. Faerie fire is the best concentration spell, and sleep is probably the best non concentration. As levels increase, I'd probably find myself using these slots for things like healing word or long strider, as a valor bard typically can do more with attacks than a lvl 1 spell.

The thing is, by lvl 5 dissonant whisper is 3d6+moves away vs vicious mockery at 2d4+disadvantage on the next attack, the former dealing half damage with no rider on a save. Is dissonant whisper better? Yes. Is the difference big enough to burn a spell slot? Probably not. I think those slots are better spent on healing or basic utility spells.

Guidance is something useful, but honestly I'd see how the campaign goes before deciding. If skill checks come up a lot, yeah grab it. If they rarely happen, or happen in situations where guidance might not help, don't bother.

As for your attack cantrips, I wouldn't. Valor bard/skald doesn't need damage cantrips, his at will damage will match them fairly well. Shocking grasp is tempting because it combos so well with your level 14 spell+attack feature, but it really depends on what you find yourself needing.

One thing I should mention is that I am assuming you are going with a mountain dwarf, for the strength boost. If not, then attack cantrips are a bit more worthwhile, as it'll be harder to increase your cha and strength to good values.

[SharkForce]

I don't have the PHB on me, at work atm, but I'm fairly sure Bestow Curse is a C spell. If not its definitely making it on my spell list. Grease seems like one you could situationally use for an entire battle, depending on terrain. Its nice that its a dex save too.

seems nobody has answered this yet: bestow curse is concentration when you first get it. if you put it in (iirc) a level 5 slot or above, it stops being concentration (also, the duration goes up, but i doubt there's too many times where you're really looking to curse someone for more than the duration of a fight).

[Garimeth]

Grease isn't on the bard spell list sadly, meaning a valor bard has to wait till 10. Becomes a little harder to justify with only 4 as well. You could go a for an athletics+trip build, but that's much harder with giants.

Offensive support wise, I don't see dissonant whisper doing much. You can drive an enemy away and deal a little damage, nice but unexceptional. Faerie fire is the best concentration spell, and sleep is probably the best non concentration. As levels increase, I'd probably find myself using these slots for things like healing word or long strider, as a valor bard typically can do more with attacks than a lvl 1 spell.

The thing is, by lvl 5 dissonant whisper is 3d6+moves away vs vicious mockery at 2d4+disadvantage on the next attack, the former dealing half damage with no rider on a save. Is dissonant whisper better? Yes. Is the difference big enough to burn a spell slot? Probably not. I think those slots are better spent on healing or basic utility spells.

Guidance is something useful, but honestly I'd see how the campaign goes before deciding. If skill checks come up a lot, yeah grab it. If they rarely happen, or happen in situations where guidance might not help, don't bother.

As for your attack cantrips, I wouldn't. Valor bard/skald doesn't need damage cantrips, his at will damage will match them fairly well. Shocking grasp is tempting because it combos so well with your level 14 spell+attack feature, but it really depends on what you find yourself needing.

One thing I should mention is that I am assuming you are going with a mountain dwarf, for the strength boost. If not, then attack cantrips are a bit more worthwhile, as it'll be harder to increase your cha and strength to good values.

Hmm good point about the VM and DW comparison, though I suspect the majority of my DW damage will come from the attacks of opportunity the mob provokes specifically from the paladin.

Well I need to pick up at least one damaging cantrip for a ranged option, as I don't plan on using an actual ranged weapon, the reason eldritch blast is tempting is because its force damage, and I can make it hit multiple targets. Shocking grasp is nice also because it robs the enemy of reactions. Poison spray would be purely because it has some range and deals 3x the damage of VM. I see your point about the Valor's damage, but it seems to me that 4d12+1d10+5 is much better than 2d10+10 or 1d10+5+4d4. Unless there is something I'm missing.

As far as guidance, I am also our trap and skill monkey as nobody is playing a rogue, and the DM has billed this as a dungeon crawl. The downside is where the guidance cantrip would be most useful (low level) it will be unavailable.

And you assume correctly, I'm playing a war hammer mountain dwarf with the following stats (rolled) at level 1:

Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 13
Wis: 9
Cha: 17

Not happy about the 9 wisdom but I need all the other stats more. I'll probably use one of my stat increases for my cha and wis, not sure what level though because... feats lol.

[charlesk]

Getting an average +2.5 on every skill check made out of combat is almost as good as bonus stacking advantage. If you have a round's notice, I believe it also applies to initiative rolls. That's pretty powerful. I'm also the party's skillmonkey and so will be getting it one way or the other for sure.

As Person_Man said, EB is great if you augment it (as I have in my char) but otherwise is merely good. Bear in mind that it doesn't scale as much as some cantrips: it gets bonus dice at levels 5, 11 and 17 where many others get them at 5, 9, 13 and 17. I only discovered this recently, it's easy to not notice things in spell descriptions apparently. :)

[Garimeth]

Getting an average +2.5 on every skill check made out of combat is almost as good as bonus stacking advantage. If you have a round's notice, I believe it also applies to initiative rolls. That's pretty powerful. I'm also the party's skillmonkey and so will be getting it one way or the other for sure.

As Person_Man said, EB is great if you augment it (as I have in my char) but otherwise is merely good. Bear in mind that it doesn't scale as much as some cantrips: it gets bonus dice at levels 5, 11 and 17 where many others get them at 5, 9, 13 and 17. I only discovered this recently, it's easy to not notice things in spell descriptions apparently. :)

Nice! Yeah I plan on relying on my second attack and melee for most of my damage until level 14. EB is mostly just to have an at will ranged option.

What loadout are you going with for your other stuff? I took Criminal background for Thieves' tool, deception, and stealth prof, Mason tools from Dwarf, and grabbed history (backstory relevant), investigation, and performance for my bard skills. I also took viol for my instrument (just to be different) as well as a horn and a drum.

[Justin Sane]

many others get them at 5, 9, 13 and 17Just checked all of them, they all get boosted at 5, 11 and 17.

[SharkForce]

Just checked all of them, they all get boosted at 5, 11 and 17.

i was starting to wonder which one(s) i'd missed :P

[Shining Wrath]

As an example of a priceless object, the last time the Lourve displayed the Mona Lisa in (IIRC) New York, they didn't insure it against theft, because the cost to insure it was greater than the cost of the most elaborate security precautions they could devise.

Does this mean that if they decided to put Mona up for sale they'd receive no bids? I imagine they'd get some from the billionaire class around the world. Governments might get involved as well; the last time Mona Lisa was stolen it was by an Italian who thought it belong back in Italy. The price would be hundreds of millions, perhaps even billions, but a price would be reached.

As an aside, I'd love to be the auction house getting 10% off the top for conducting that sale.

The Mona Lisa is priceless because it is one of a kind and it is very difficult to put a price on it by any means other than putting it up for open auction. No one auctions off gallons of milk to determine what they are worth.

[Talderas]

Offensive support wise, I don't see dissonant whisper doing much. You can drive an enemy away and deal a little damage, nice but unexceptional. Faerie fire is the best concentration spell, and sleep is probably the best non concentration. As levels increase, I'd probably find myself using these slots for things like healing word or long strider, as a valor bard typically can do more with attacks than a lvl 1 spell.

Dissonant Whispers is fabulous for creating opportunity attacks.

--

Edit:


The Mona Lisa is priceless because it is one of a kind and it is very difficult to put a price on it by any means other than putting it up for open auction. No one auctions off gallons of milk to determine what they are worth.

No one would auction off gallons of milk because gallons of milk spoils. Some items can move from being priced to priceless and wine is a great example of this. Wine is priced when its initially bottled, and older vintages will go up in price. After a certain period of time very old vintages can be sold on auction because they're highly desired and sufficiently rare. Prior to the auction you can't really place a price on those bottles of wine.

[Mellack]

This is true, but its more similar to how the smites take concentration. If as a 14th level skald, which admittedly is not most people, I can true strike then bonus action an attack. Good catch though. I also did not realize at the time that I can only cast it on myself. I've decided not to pick it up on my skald.


The problem with spells like True strike taking concentration is not that you are likely to get hit and lose them, but that they interrupt other concentration spells. You can cast and then use something like True strike immediately, but that would cause your buff like Bless to end, which is a big problem in my mind.

[strangebloke]

An important point is that its ok for a pure buffing caster build to be feat-intensive, since they only really need constitution (and their main casting stat, to a lesser extent)

They never roll to hit, and never force a save. They also don't care about DPR, and in 5e they don't need a high casting stat to cast their spells, so their main casting stat is actually not their main attribute. Some of the very best support spells (haste, fly, invisibility, and forcecage) don't care about the main attribute at all. As we get more spells, the casting stat will become less important. This kind of reminds me of how DMM:persist clerics really had CHA as their main stat, not WIS.

You also don't really need that much DEX. 14 dex will let you dip fighter for two levels and get medium armor, proficiency in CON, and action surge. (Which is actually not that good here, but eh.) The only thing that DEX gives you at that point that no other stat does is initiative, and if its initiative you want, you're better off just taking Alert.

So for a bard, we start out with a stat spread like this:
Variant Human
STR: 8, DEX:14, CON:16, INT:8, WIS:8, CHA:16

You get five stat improvements. Maxing CON and CHA will still leave you with two feats, which is as many feats as you really want right now.

And it isn't just that a 20-level build has room for two feats; you can take those feats fairly early on. After all, the only reason you need to get CON to 20 is to ace those concentration rolls, and getting advantage on concentration through war caster is generally going to be better than a +1, even at low levels.

At level 20 though, you will have a +11 on concentration, 17 AC, +7 to initiative (Alert), and ~202 hit points, which is pretty darn tanky. Your chances of failing a concentration check on any attack that deals 22 or less damage is 1/400, and it isn't likely for you to fail a check until you get into the higher 40s of damage. (More damage than the tarrasque deals on most attacks.) You could even take lucky if you're really paranoid about dropping your companions out of a fly spell or something similar.

Even if all you're doing at this point is casting a buff and concentrating on it, you can stay relevant. Cast fly from a 6-7th level slot to get the whole party in the air to engage that dragon, and use cantrips or play solitaire or whatever with your free time. You're contributing hugely, even if you do nothing but casting and concentrating.

That's no fun, clearly, but it is an effective playstyle. And there are other things for you to do. Like using your bardic inspiration die. Or cantrips. Or healing. And of course you also have huge out of combat utility with song of rest and guidance and your various skills, so you shouldn't complain if combat isn't as fun for you as it is for the barbarian whose only purpose is combat.

Also worthy of note is that bard just isn't the best support character in combat. They can be great out-of-combat support, but at the moment they just don't have the spells and class features to do only support casting, at least, not to the extent that other spellcasters do.

Look at the sorcerer. Sorcerers have a superior spell selection, are proficient in CON saves, and can twin spell to get a concentration spell (aka haste or energy resistance) to apply to two targets at once. For draconic sorcerers, the draconic presence ability is a powerful debuff that needs concentration, but does not break concentration when you use it. That's a max of three concentration effects at once, which is pretty nifty.

[Garimeth]

The problem with spells like True strike taking concentration is not that you are likely to get hit and lose them, but that they interrupt other concentration spells. You can cast and then use something like True strike immediately, but that would cause your buff like Bless to end, which is a big problem in my mind.

Good point! Actually makes me rethink the usefulness of smite spells! You're better off just charging a smite with spell slots!

[Xetheral]

The problem with spells like True strike taking concentration is not that you are likely to get hit and lose them, but that they interrupt other concentration spells. You can cast and then use something like True strike immediately, but that would cause your buff like Bless to end, which is a big problem in my mind.

Actually, you can't use True Strike immediately: the spell specifies that you must wait until your next turn to get the bonus.

[strangebloke]

Regarding the discussion of what it means for something to be priceless:

Something is priceless because it can't be replaced with money. My mom's old wedding dress is priceless to her because there is no way that she could replace it, and it is important to her. That doesn't mean that she would get good money for it if she tried to sell it.

Similarly, magic items are priceless. They are so rare that the only way to get one is to be incredibly lucky, (by finding one or by finding an adventurer willing to sell one.) but that does not mean that they are worth a whole lot, to the average buyer.

I mean, flying shoes are awesome for most adventurers, but Joe Noble in Generic Kingdom doesn't really have an immediate need for them, outside of recreation. He'd be willing to pay a hefty sum, but it isn't as though he's going to mortgage his kingdom just so he can fly around, particularly when he can just hire a wizard to do the same thing.

Magic items (generally) empower a single individual to the same extent that a wizard or bard could by using their concentration slot. For adventurers, this is game changing, as it means a free concentration slot. For a king with a thousand soldiers and a dozen wizards under his command, not so much.

That said, 500 still feels a tad low, as that's a third the cost of plate mail. Still, its a pretty fine point to nitpick.

[Mellack]

Actually, you can't use True Strike immediately: the spell specifies that you must wait until your next turn to get the bonus.

Wow, I didn't see that. That makes it even worse, as you can't use it on the same turn for a bonus action attack or an action surge. Not to derail, but do you guys think True Strike is only useable on the caster? It has a range, but the text seems to imply it only functions for the caster, that they target is who you plan to attack.

[Ashrym]

Getting an average +2.5 on every skill check made out of combat is almost as good as bonus stacking advantage. If you have a round's notice, I believe it also applies to initiative rolls. That's pretty powerful. I'm also the party's skillmonkey and so will be getting it one way or the other for sure.

As Person_Man said, EB is great if you augment it (as I have in my char) but otherwise is merely good. Bear in mind that it doesn't scale as much as some cantrips: it gets bonus dice at levels 5, 11 and 17 where many others get them at 5, 9, 13 and 17. I only discovered this recently, it's easy to not notice things in spell descriptions apparently. :)

It's not, however. Advantage works out to ~+4 depending on existing bonus and the the +5 used for passive is based on a flat d20 equivalent. It's nice in that it's a stacking bonus but I don't believe it's worth spending secrets on when the class already has strong skill ability, the help action is easily available, and for how often it would actually make a difference I may as well use enhance ability instead. If skills are a concern then bardic inspiration can be used on a PC with the best base bonus, or peerless can be used on a lore bard. Not enough secrets equals too much investment for overkill. Bigger numbers for the sake of bigger numbers can be a trap in 5e.

A damage cantrip at 14th level on a valor bard is a great choice. Either Eldritch blast or poison spray, usually eldritch blast as the better choice.



@ the general thread:

Dissonant whispers is definitely a good spell. Use it after the group is within opportunity attack range of the intended target. Because it's not forced movement, the targets movement triggers attacks of opportunity. It's the equivalent of 4 attacks at first level if 3 PC's Aoe, and allows per hit attacks on several classes including sneak attacks or smites.

The more attackers, the more damage it does, and the bard can grant his own opportunity attack with it.

The spell does soooo much more than the 3d6 base damage when used tactically.


Bestow curse used in a 5th-level slot no longer requires concentration and lasts longer. Long duration is niche and no concentration is what makes it worth the higher slot investment.


Don't forget thunderwave in the attack spell options without concentration. The loud noise might be a concern but the spell does decent AoE damage for the level on a bard (which seems to be the current focus of the conversation) and the push might be useful.


If concentration is causing issues, pick up blindness / deafness. Blindness does not require concentration, affects more target types than tasha's or hold person, can be cast in higher slots for multiple targets an remain ally friendly (unlike many AoE's), and does double duty by giving attackers advantage against the target whom it cannot see, and giving the target disadvantage attacking opponents whom it cannot see. That's good for increased damage and defense without concentration.


One spell a lot of support spellcasters overlook is sanctuary. Sanctuary casts on a bonus action and also doesn't require concentration. It's a solid choice for clerics or some bards. It breaks on attacks but as long as the target does something not attacking it's great defense. That something can be movement, healing, concentration on an ongoing spell, healing, casting a longer casting time spells, or more. You can even cast it one someone bottlenecking an opening, he spends his actions dodging, and the party attacks from behind at range. It's an often overlooked crowd control ability.


Just some thoughts and tips.

[SharkForce]

Wow, I didn't see that. That makes it even worse, as you can't use it on the same turn for a bonus action attack or an action surge. Not to derail, but do you guys think True Strike is only useable on the caster? It has a range, but the text seems to imply it only functions for the caster, that they target is who you plan to attack.

it is "usable" on the caster only... for a given definition of "usable" (that is, it technically can be used, but it's such an awful spell that i hesitate to call it usable even in a technical sense).

[Talderas]

An important point is that its ok for a pure buffing caster build to be feat-intensive, since they only really need constitution (and their main casting stat, to a lesser extent)

A pure buffing bard will still want to achieve a 20 charisma because it governs the number of bardic inspiration uses he gets. Even with short rest recharge having 5 vs 3 is a huge boon.

[Ashrym]

it is "usable" on the caster only... for a given definition of "usable" (that is, it technically can be used, but it's such an awful spell that i hesitate to call it usable even in a technical sense).

Yup. Horribly, horribly circumstantial to the point it needs the concentration requirement removed to make it a horribly niche cantrip. Remove concentration and allow it to buff an ally's next attack. Then at least it's on par with the help action used in combat and there's a real reason to take it.

[archaeo]

The large problem with the concentration rules is they're well balanced around a narrow pacing range of short/long rests and a number of encounters per day. When you are outside of the pacing the flaws of the concentration system become a bit more visible.

Just as a reminder: the DMG includes optional rules that change the pacing of the rest mechanics, and using them can dramatically affect how the game flows. You might find that the faster rest options give you the feel you're looking for, and the rule module includes ways to keep it from making casters too overpowered in context.


That said, 500 still feels a tad low, as that's a third the cost of plate mail. Still, its a pretty fine point to nitpick.

While I'm AFB, I feel like the DMG openly tells DMs that the prices are just a suggestion and to go with whatever works for your campaign. The default configuration seems aimed at keeping things simple instead of hyper-granular, mostly to reduce the dull bookkeeping that comes with crafting and playing an economics simulator.

[charlesk]

What loadout are you going with for your other stuff? I took Criminal background for Thieves' tool, deception, and stealth prof, Mason tools from Dwarf, and grabbed history (backstory relevant), investigation, and performance for my bard skills. I also took viol for my instrument (just to be different) as well as a horn and a drum.

This character was built at level 4 to replace another character (which was driven out of the party by an unfriendly player "role-playing", who has now mercifully left the group). I started him as a 3/1 warlock/bard with plans to progress solely in bard from here out. We just hit 6 so he will be 3/3 once I level him up.

He has an interesting "rags to riches to rags" backstory that explains his change of career (somewhat, I'm not a genius storyteller). I've already mostly laid out my plans for him, which are oriented around support and staying out of melee. I took 3 levels in warlock to get the imp familiar, which has proven to be extremely useful, so much so that it annoys the DM at times. My warlock invocations were chosen based on what the character would have wanted had he stayed warlock, so in this case they are Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast... which at least means that when I am in fact reduced to just zapping things for direct damage, I can at least do a fair bit of it.


Just checked all of them, they all get boosted at 5, 11 and 17.

Oops. Bad brain fart on me, I am not sure how I got convinced that most cantrips scaled at the same time as the proficiency bonus increased.


It's not, however. Advantage works out to ~+4 depending on existing bonus and the the +5 used for passive is based on a flat d20 equivalent. It's nice in that it's a stacking bonus but I don't believe it's worth spending secrets on when the class already has strong skill ability, the help action is easily available, and for how often it would actually make a difference I may as well use enhance ability instead. If skills are a concern then bardic inspiration can be used on a PC with the best base bonus, or peerless can be used on a lore bard. Not enough secrets equals too much investment for overkill. Bigger numbers for the sake of bigger numbers can be a trap in 5e.


Maybe it's different at higher levels, but at lower levels I watched a druid in the party I DMed use Guidance to very great effect. He was constantly buffing the rogue before utility checks and giving their barbarian a boost to initiative (which is a big deal in this game).

The thing about Guidance is that it is essentially free, and it stacks with many other things. Also, I am in a party of 7 and I like to save my bardic inspiration for combat.

In retrospect, I agree about not spending secrets on a cantrip when there's a much better way to get this: Magic Initiate. If I go that route and use the cleric list I can also snag Thaumaturgy or Spare the Dying, and also get Sanctuary once per long rest, a nice spell to try to protect someone in trouble during combat that lasts 10 rounds without concentration.

Advantage provides a non-linear benefit that ranges from the equivalent of +5 to as low as +1. It generally provides the most benefit in helping avoid low rolls, but its value decreases as you go up, with the exception of giving you two chances at a natural 20. If you need an 18 as a roll for a tough check with something you may not have proficiency or good bonuses on, the d4 is better (again except for a lower chance at a natural 20).



One spell a lot of support spellcasters overlook is sanctuary. Sanctuary casts on a bonus action and also doesn't require concentration. It's a solid choice for clerics or some bards. It breaks on attacks but as long as the target does something not attacking it's great defense. That something can be movement, healing, concentration on an ongoing spell, healing, casting a longer casting time spells, or more. You can even cast it one someone bottlenecking an opening, he spends his actions dodging, and the party attacks from behind at range. It's an often overlooked crowd control ability.


Okay that is funny as I hadn't read your entire post before I started responding... we are definitely on the same page here. :)

[silveralen]

Hmm good point about the VM and DW comparison, though I suspect the majority of my DW damage will come from the attacks of opportunity the mob provokes specifically from the paladin.

Well I need to pick up at least one damaging cantrip for a ranged option, as I don't plan on using an actual ranged weapon, the reason eldritch blast is tempting is because its force damage, and I can make it hit multiple targets. Shocking grasp is nice also because it robs the enemy of reactions. Poison spray would be purely because it has some range and deals 3x the damage of VM. I see your point about the Valor's damage, but it seems to me that 4d12+1d10+5 is much better than 2d10+10 or 1d10+5+4d4. Unless there is something I'm missing.

As far as guidance, I am also our trap and skill monkey as nobody is playing a rogue, and the DM has billed this as a dungeon crawl. The downside is where the guidance cantrip would be most useful (low level) it will be unavailable.

And you assume correctly, I'm playing a war hammer mountain dwarf with the following stats (rolled) at level 1:

Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 13
Wis: 9
Cha: 17

Not happy about the 9 wisdom but I need all the other stats more. I'll probably use one of my stat increases for my cha and wis, not sure what level though because... feats lol.

Ah, my DM ruled that DW's "the creature won't move through obvious dangerous terrain" included not moving in a way to provoke AoO. DW gets much better if that isn't true.

It is better damage at will, I am simply unsure if the extra 5-10 damage from lvl 14 onwards justifies it, especially as bards end up using bonus actions fairly frequently already. I think the best advice would be to play the character and see how often you use that bonus action, as you don't really benefit from poison spray/shocking grasp till lvl 14 (your second magical secrets access as well, convenient!) in any case.

EB is both better and worse. It doesn't work as well in melee due to being a ranged attack, and thus subject to disadvantage, but it offers more range and reliability than throwing weapons or most ranged cantrips.

I'd actually make note that, with your fairly high initial stats, you could justify taking magic initiate (even at lvl 4 it wouldn't be unreasonable, though warcaster and resilient (con) look attractive as well), assuming the DM allows feats. The problem is deciding what to grab. Guidance is on the cleric/druid list, so anything you got off of there is cast with wisdom, making your other choices meh. Warlock could get you eldritch blast, poison spray, and armor of agathys (which is probably castable from your bard slots, check with the DM) a more attractive set of options overall. Sorcerer can access firebolt, shocking grasp, and ray of sickness, overall i think a little more meh but still worthy of consideration.

You could even dip warlock to three to grab some nice features. It gets you all the cantrips you would want, using pact of the tome, you can grab agonizing blast to boost EB, and it allows you to cast healing word/blindness on a short rest. However, it really delays some of your best valor features, making it a bit iffy before we even deal with character concept issues. I wouldn't recommend it, but wanted to include it for completeness.

[Talderas]

Ah, my DM ruled that DW's "the creature won't move through obvious dangerous terrain" included not moving in a way to provoke AoO. DW gets much better if that isn't true.

Your DM is ruling incorrect. With Dissonant Whispers the creature won't move into obviously dangerous terrain and it even provides examples like "an open pit or a fire". Dangerous terrain clearly means the terrain itself is the danger.

[Garimeth]

Silveralen:

Totally missed magic initiate, that saves me like half my secrets uses. Thanks!

[Gnaeus]

Regarding the discussion of what it means for something to be priceless:

Something is priceless because it can't be replaced with money. My mom's old wedding dress is priceless to her because there is no way that she could replace it, and it is important to her. That doesn't mean that she would get good money for it if she tried to sell it.

Similarly, magic items are priceless. They are so rare that the only way to get one is to be incredibly lucky, (by finding one or by finding an adventurer willing to sell one.) but that does not mean that they are worth a whole lot, to the average buyer.

I mean, flying shoes are awesome for most adventurers, but Joe Noble in Generic Kingdom doesn't really have an immediate need for them, outside of recreation. He'd be willing to pay a hefty sum, but it isn't as though he's going to mortgage his kingdom just so he can fly around, particularly when he can just hire a wizard to do the same thing.

Magic items (generally) empower a single individual to the same extent that a wizard or bard could by using their concentration slot. For adventurers, this is game changing, as it means a free concentration slot. For a king with a thousand soldiers and a dozen wizards under his command, not so much.

That said, 500 still feels a tad low, as that's a third the cost of plate mail. Still, its a pretty fine point to nitpick.

No, not really.

It's true that magic item guidelines do not, and have never, been reasonably priced for what their general world utility does. But your examples are not very reasonable. A hireling like a scribe costs 2 gp per DAY. Having a first or second level spell cast costs 10-50 per casting (per PHB).


People who are able to cast spells don’t fall into the
category of ordinary hirelings. It might be possible to
find someone willing to cast a spell in exchange for coin
or favors, but it is rarely easy and no established pay
rates exist. As a rule, the higher the level o f the desired
spell, the harder it is to find someone who can cast it
and the more it costs.
Hiring someone to cast a relatively common spell
of 1st or 2nd level, such as cure wounds or identify, is
easy enough in a city or town, and might cost 10 to 50
gold pieces (plus the cost o f any expensive material
components). Finding someone able and willing to
cast a higher-level spell might involve traveling to a
large city, perhaps one with a university or prominent
temple. Once found, the spellcaster might ask for a
service instead of payment—the kind of service that
only adventurers can provide, such as retrieving a rare
item from a dangerous locale or traversing a monster infested wilderness to deliver something important to
a distant settlement.

So, yeah, Count Fred MAY be able to find a caster willing to cast fly on him whenever he wants it. But it is going to cost him an arm and a leg. Clearly way more than the cost of a magic item. And if he IS paying such a caster, he is probably paying for him to do something really important, like supporting troops in a key area, not just to have him available to cast fly.

So, why would generic noble want to fly? Sure, it sounds entertaining (and rich people pay a TON for entertainment. But also... it sounds great for escaping assassination attempts. It could be used by a general to recon a battlefield. It would be great for making maps of his country. It could functionally break a siege.

Wands can detect when some ally is being enchanted, or find secret doors in the castle he is visiting. Magic items can prevent the next kingdom's wizard from scrying on you. They can make you resistant to disease so you live longer. They can allow your ambassador to take 500 pounds of trade goods with him as a gift, or smuggle 500 pounds of contraband. They can help you negotiate that trade deal with the leading dwarven merchant. They can let you send someone underwater to gather pearls or recover goods from ships that sank. They can let you immediately put up a fortress to secure a strategic point until a castle can be built, or maintain a fortress in an area with no fresh drinking water. They can make sure that every new king has an intelligence of at least 19.

Why else would a noble want magic items? Well, the ruler certainly needs to have adventuring types at his disposal to deal with the weird monsters out there in the world. Just sending guardsmen out to die is not often a very good idea. So either he needs to equip his adventuring team, which requires magic items. Or he needs to bribe adventurers to go and do stuff for him, and magic items are an excellent way to do that. In some cultures, giving gifts to leading servants is a major way in which important leaders build and maintain prestige, and giving your general a fancy sword is the kind of thing many cultures would see as expected for a king to do.

And then, given that these items are rare, expensive to make, last virtually forever, and are carried by important people, there would be a significant collectable value. What would be the cost of Joan of Arc's sword, or Julius Caesar's? And if you could actually make the plausible claim that that sword actually was super powerful and was part of the cause of their success? Cha ching! Even if all you can get is "This sword was enchanted by the same ancient wizard that crafted Excalibur! See? Look at his mark here on the blade!" you have rocketed into the land of serious cash

Sure, D&D economy has never made much sense, but every noble would get significant cost return on some magic items, many nobles would pay a premium for items that guarantee their personal safety, and even the "combat only" items would command a significant cost in a world where magical monsters are a thing that can come wandering out of a nearby tunnel, forest, or graveyard.