Insane Range Archer (that actually does damage)

[Glorius Nippon]

*Volley of arrows hits group of soldiers

"Sir! Where are those damn arrows coming from?!"

"I don't know Jenkkins, just keep your damn shield up!"

*A single arrow pierces the captains skull

"Screw this, I'm leaving!"

As the squad disperses, a lone archer perched on a mountain miles away nods, having dispersed the bandits.

Essentially, I would like to build an archer that perches himself miles away from the actual battle and rains death upon his enemies, or snipes leaders/officers. I'd also like to stay away from the extremely cheesy stuff (basically, psionics, ect.) and stay as martial as possible, but they aren't completely ruled out.

Also, if you don't mind, could you either post the rulings of what you use or link to something that does? I'm still rather new to D&D so I don't know all of the obscure feats, items ect.

In advance, thanks to those of you who do decide to take the time and help me.

[jjcrpntr]

I made a ranger once with Far shot, precise shot and had a bow with a bunch of enchants+crystal on it. That with ranged weapon mastery I was hitting people just about every shot from like 280 feet away for pretty good damage. I wasn't one shotting anyone but good luck getting in range to kill me if I get the jump on ya.

[Vhaidara]

extremely cheesy stuff (basically, psionics, ect.)

First off, Psionics is less cheesy than magic. But that's beside the point.

You'll want 4 levels of Cragtop Archer from Races of Stone. 2 abilities make this necessary
1. Arcing Shot: As long as you have 40ft of clearance above you, you get 15 range increments instead of 10
2. Horizon Shot: Full Round action, fire at anything within your max range at no penalty.

So, using a Composite Greatbow (130ft range), plus the Distance enhancement (x2 for 260), plus Far Shot (x1.5 for 390), plus Arcing Shot for 15 increments (x15 for 5850). You can now shoot over a mile with no penalty.

For damage, transplant Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) onto your Distance Composite Greatbow for 3000gp (11500-8500 (cost of a +2 composite longbow)=3000). This allows you to Power Attack with the bow. Since your enemy will be flat-footed, you might want to invest in also making the bow Brilliant Energy, so you get a touch attack as well, so you aim at an AC of (essentially) 10.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So, using a Composite Greatbow (130ft range), plus the Distance enhancement (x2 for 260), plus Far Shot (x1.5 for 390), plus Arcing Shot for 15 increments (x15 for 5850). You can now shoot over a mile with no penalty.
Be sure to do some Spot check optimizing if you want to see anyone at that kind of range.

[Glorius Nippon]

First off, Psionics is less cheesy than magic. But that's beside the point.

You'll want 4 levels of Cragtop Archer from Races of Stone. 2 abilities make this necessary
1. Arcing Shot: As long as you have 40ft of clearance above you, you get 15 range increments instead of 10
2. Horizon Shot: Full Round action, fire at anything within your max range at no penalty.

So, using a Composite Greatbow (130ft range), plus the Distance enhancement (x2 for 260), plus Far Shot (x1.5 for 390), plus Arcing Shot for 15 increments (x15 for 5850). You can now shoot over a mile with no penalty.

For damage, transplant Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) onto your Distance Composite Greatbow for 3000gp (11500-8500 (cost of a +2 composite longbow)=3000). This allows you to Power Attack with the bow. Since your enemy will be flat-footed, you might want to invest in also making the bow Brilliant Energy, so you get a touch attack as well, so you aim at an AC of (essentially) 10.

What do you know, sometimes there is a class that gives you exactly what you want. So would going fighter for 6 levels is probably the easiest way to get the prereqs for cragtop, as well as provide other feats you need?

[Red Rubber Band]

I'd consider a couple of levels of Ranger for Favoured Enemy and Rapid Shot.

Deepwood Sniper lets you ignore some concealment (to a degree) and gives you better critical range.

Peerless Archer gives you Power Shot and it lowers concealment too.

[Vhaidara]

Actually, I think Fighter 2/Warblade X/Cragtop Archer 4 would be a better combination. IIRC, there are a few maneuvers that are written in such a way as to work with bows. I forget which ones though.

An even better thing would be if you could get your GM to let you use the Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord) from Path of War. It is third party Pathfinder material, but it has higher quality than pretty much everything published by WotC. Specifically, you would be interested in the Solar Wind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/solar-wind-maneuvers) discipline, which is all about archery. And if you have any questions about Path of War material, you can message the Dreamscarred Press writers on these very forums. I know for a fact that Elricaltovilla, ErrantX, and LordGareth have all written for Path of War.

[Snowbluff]

First off, Psionics is less cheesy than magic.
First off, this is objectively untrue. Psionics includes all of wizard magic, and is just as much of a travesty before that. :smallsigh:

[Forrestfire]

This build skeleton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14610047&postcount=46) I apparently had bookmarked could work.

To alleviate the spot issue, use the Chain of Eyes spell on something through an item, and have your allies (or something. I like fine-sized Minor Servitors) be spotters. You can now draw line of sight from them, and as long as you have line of effect (or a seeking bow), then you're good for sniping. Get a flying carpet or something and go camp out from a half-mile up, then murder things from the skies out of nowhere.

[eggynack]

Well, the top level of this concept would probably be defined by Tippy's bird of prey (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286818-Bird-of-Prey-%28Tippy-s-Awesome-Flying-Sniper%29) build. Might be a bit too high optimization, but it's cool stuff.

[Vhaidara]

First off, this is objectively untrue. Psionics includes all of wizard magic, and is just as much of a travesty before that. :smallsigh:

I meant ignoring StP erudite.

[Snowbluff]

I suggest Iaijutsu Focus (Oriental Adventures) to add damage. It will be the wonkiest thing you'll ever do, but if you're shooting people from outside of sight, they would be flat footed. Arrows can be used as melee weapons.

If you're DM asks how it works, show him clips of Monster Hunter where an archer is draw charging shots.


I meant ignoring StP erudite.

Sure. If we ignore wizard, arcane magic is so balanced. :smalltongue:

[Glorius Nippon]

Actually, I think Fighter 2/Warblade X/Cragtop Archer 4 would be a better combination. IIRC, there are a few maneuvers that are written in such a way as to work with bows. I forget which ones though.

An even better thing would be if you could get your GM to let you use the Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord) from Path of War. It is third party Pathfinder material, but it has higher quality than pretty much everything published by WotC. Specifically, you would be interested in the Solar Wind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/solar-wind-maneuvers) discipline, which is all about archery. And if you have any questions about Path of War material, you can message the Dreamscarred Press writers on these very forums. I know for a fact that Elricaltovilla, ErrantX, and LordGareth have all written for Path of War.

Really wish I had known that before my groups last campaign ended. Guy who was DMing that one hates maneuvers with a passion, and reacted quite hilariously whenever I used them in a neat little Iaitojutsu build I made. Anyway, can you generally what they did at least? I know about a few (mainly shadow hand ones), but don't remember seeing anything that would help ranged attackers much.

[Snowbluff]

Off the top of my head, Dancing Mongoose and Time Stands Still are great additions to a range build. Here's a note from another poster on the matter. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10296220&postcount=420)

[Vhaidara]

IIRC, it is mostly Diamond Mind maneuvers. I never really got a lot of chances to use ToB (the GMs at my college preferred running T4 groups) and since then I've transitioned to using PoW exclusively (since it is much better written.



Sure. If we ignore wizard, arcane magic is so balanced. :smalltongue:

False. Sorcerer.

[Glorius Nippon]

I suggest Iaijutsu Focus (Oriental Adventures) to add damage. It will be the wonkiest thing you'll ever do, but if you're shooting people from outside of sight, they would be flat footed. Arrows can be used as melee weapons.

If you're DM asks how it works, show him clips of Monster Hunter where an archer is draw charging shots.



Sure. If we ignore wizard, arcane magic is so balanced. :smalltongue:

Conveniently, that's what my last character focused on (which I talked about in my last post you damn ninja). In my experience it's a fairly specialized skill which takes a lot of dedication to get the most out of (not to mention a lot of convincing that Iaitojutsu would apply to a bow).

Edit: Also try not to go too far off topic guys, or else the moderators will smite us with passive aggressive messages.

[Snowbluff]

False. Sorcerer.
The point was that if we ignore certain aspects of either, we could easily erase the cheesiest from either side.

Conveniently, that's what my last character focused on (which I talked about in my last post you damn ninja). In my experience it's a fairly specialized skill which takes a lot of dedication to get the most out of (not to mention a lot of convincing that Iaitojutsu would apply to a bow).

I'm not a ninja, I'm a swordsage... or a harbinger? Stalker? Harbinger.

I was giggling to myself when I saw the post about Iaijutsu. :smalltongue:

[Feint's End]

First off, this is objectively untrue. Psionics includes all of wizard magic, and is just as much of a travesty before that. :smallsigh:

Metapsionics aren't as borked as metamagic though (with the latter being either almost useless or high op). Also magic has access to way more spells with many more potential game breaking and cheesy combinations. StP Erudite is a thing though.

On topic: I think aforementioned combination is your best bet. Can anyone tell me when Cragtop archers get this x15 class feature and what the entry requirements are? This might change the overall best entry.

[Metahuman1]

First off, Psionics is less cheesy than magic. But that's beside the point.

You'll want 4 levels of Cragtop Archer from Races of Stone. 2 abilities make this necessary
1. Arcing Shot: As long as you have 40ft of clearance above you, you get 15 range increments instead of 10
2. Horizon Shot: Full Round action, fire at anything within your max range at no penalty.

So, using a Composite Greatbow (130ft range), plus the Distance enhancement (x2 for 260), plus Far Shot (x1.5 for 390), plus Arcing Shot for 15 increments (x15 for 5850). You can now shoot over a mile with no penalty.

For damage, transplant Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) onto your Distance Composite Greatbow for 3000gp (11500-8500 (cost of a +2 composite longbow)=3000). This allows you to Power Attack with the bow. Since your enemy will be flat-footed, you might want to invest in also making the bow Brilliant Energy, so you get a touch attack as well, so you aim at an AC of (essentially) 10.

Do this.

Put it on Ranger, with some extra dips in the following.

1 Level in Cloistered Cleric. Possibly for your first level. If you can pull something to keep all knowledge skills as class skills, go for it. While your at it, pick Knowledge Devotion for some extra too hit and damage, Zen Archery, Planning Domain for extend spell, another Domain of your choosing (If you can find one you like or one that has a devotion feat you like. There should be something somewhere of use.) And Persist Spell and Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell.

1 Level in Shiba Protector.

And 1-2 Levels in Soulbow, however many it takes to get the Wis to Damage ability.

Get all of this, and then, Persist Hunters Mercy, a first level Ranger spell from the spell compendium.

Now your using Double Wis to hit, which if you have a brilliant Energy Longbow with regular castings of at character level Greater Magic Weapon form a party caster (Invest in a Pearl of Power 3rd level and a Lesser Rod of Extend for the Wizard or the Cleric, or a Momento Magica and a Knowstone + Rod for the Sorcerer.) and Knowledge devotion up and running, and flatfooted, should get you hits basically all the time when Miss chance from something isn't screwing you over, and let you totally ignore DR being a Thing.

Add, that you'll have an almost full BAB that you can fully dump on all those attacks into Power Attack + Str Mod + Wis Mod + Wis Mod again (And you'll have this one high as your using it to hit and for ranger casting as well as will saves and some skills.) + Knowledge devotion damage + Bow's base damage x 3 form Hunters Mercy against any target that isn't Critical Immune + bows enchantments.


If you can swing it, you will obliterate nearly all targets that can be put in range of you. Just, watch out for Golems and Undead. Brilliant energy is problematic there.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Several levels of the Targeteer fighter variant would help greatly.

Extra attacks with ranged weapons, and then the ability to get a +1 to crit range for every attack you sacrifice, as part of a full-round action.

Pop on keen, or improved crit, or what have you, combined with the cragtop archer, and you'll be hitting well, from very far away, and have a decent chance to crit every time.

Dropping a few levels on Pyrokineticist, to add 2d6 to every attack would suit you very well. Double that, if you're willing to invest more.

Psionic shot, and fell shot, and you'll be hitting for extra d6's, and doing it as a touch attack.

Psionics is a wonderful thing, for non-casters, if you're willing to put in the effort, and invest into it.

What was the Erudite from again, complete crap psionics? And wasn't StP a variant of it, to boot?

[Snowbluff]

Metapsionics aren't as borked as metamagic though (with the latter being either almost useless or high op). Also magic has access to way more spells with many more potential game breaking and cheesy combinations. StP Erudite is a thing though.
You mean the Metapsionics that grant you infinite PP in a system that makes it really easy to persist spells?

[Feint's End]

Do this.

Put it on Ranger, with some extra dips in the following.

1 Level in Cloistered Cleric. Possibly for your first level. If you can pull something to keep all knowledge skills as class skills, go for it. While your at it, pick Knowledge Devotion for some extra too hit and damage, Zen Archery, Planning Domain for extend spell, another Domain of your choosing (If you can find one you like or one that has a devotion feat you like. There should be something somewhere of use.) And Persist Spell and Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell.

1 Level in Shiba Protector.

And 1-2 Levels in Soulbow, however many it takes to get the Wis to Damage ability.

Get all of this, and then, Persist Hunters Mercy, a first level Ranger spell from the spell compendium.

Now your using Double Wis to hit, which if you have a brilliant Energy Longbow with regular castings of at character level Greater Magic Weapon form a party caster (Invest in a Pearl of Power 3rd level and a Lesser Rod of Extend for the Wizard or the Cleric, or a Momento Magica and a Knowstone + Rod for the Sorcerer.) and Knowledge devotion up and running, and flatfooted, should get you hits basically all the time when Miss chance from something isn't screwing you over, and let you totally ignore DR being a Thing.

Add, that you'll have an almost full BAB that you can fully dump on all those attacks into Power Attack + Str Mod + Wis Mod + Wis Mod again (And you'll have this one high as your using it to hit and for ranger casting as well as will saves and some skills.) + Knowledge devotion damage + Bow's base damage x 3 form Hunters Mercy against any target that isn't Critical Immune + bows enchantments.


If you can swing it, you will obliterate nearly all targets that can be put in range of you. Just, watch out for Golems and Undead. Brilliant energy is problematic there.

A few nitpicks:
-You need loads and loads of feats to do it (without flaws it's not possible in a reasonable level range).

-Knowledge Devotion removes all the knowledge classskills if you exchange it from Knowledge Domain (something to consider if you are counting on it) ... Picking it as a regular feat would further increase the feat cost for the build

-Soulbow has no use since the +wis to damage only applies for the soul arrows (and oh belive me ... you don't want to fire those unless you play Pathfinder)


Other than that the whole idea of persisting Hunter's Mercy is pretty good. I wonder if there is a way to get the good Ranger spells on the cleric list (Which would make the access much easier) ... If not then the entry is pretty much set with 4 levels Ranger and 1 level Cleric. Plus Fighterlevels likely for the feats.
It should be of note however that by strict RAW a persistent Hunter's Mercy does absolutely nothing for you aside from the regular effect due to the wording (it says specifically "next turn" for the effect and not "for the duration") so you might want to check with your DM before (ab)using this.

[Urpriest]

You mean the Metapsionics that grant you infinite PP in a system that makes it really easy to persist spells?

The latter is more the cheese factor of using untouched 3.0 content from previously broken subsystems, rather than something inherent to psionics itself.

[ericgrau]

I figured that psionics comment would blow up, but I didn't know it'd blow up so fast and so badly lol.

Besides a way to see the enemy, be sure to find a good method of two way to constantly communication with your party so you know where they are and so that they know you're ok. And a way for them to quickly teleport to you in case you get ganked. If you travel with them it defeats the purpose. If you can't find each other, that makes it hard to travel apart. Telepathic bond is one method for communication, while you constantly sing a ditty in your head so that if the ditty stops that means you are in trouble. Getting to you is a problem since the party caster needs to have seen where you are to cast teleport. Not sure how to deal with that. Well, better have a good hide check at least and a DM that doesn't over-use fiat:
DM: "A squad ambushes you at point blank range. You are hopelessly outmatched without your party."
PC: "In the cold mountains without a person within a mile?"
DM: "They were tracking you"
PC: "I teleported to my initial position"
DM: "They also scried on you"
PC: "I made sure nobody even knew I was in the party. I wear a disguise in town"
DM: "They're really good."

[Snowbluff]

Couldn't you use the Bond to have someone tell you the location of a target you can't see, then have you shoot at the square. With Seeking arrows, you could ignore the miss chance, right?

The latter is more the cheese factor of using untouched 3.0 content from previously broken subsystems, rather than something inherent to psionics itself.
To be fair, a lot of things that were brought over from 3.0 to 3.5 were mostly unchanged. The psionics system went through a few changes, but the core mechanic is still there, and the way metapsionics is still the same AFAICT. Besides, it was the same system, the language of the feat functions the same, and it wasn't errataed, so Persistent Power is fair game. Ergo, MM isn't more of a problem than MP.

It's only a double standard you're upholding, not defending a poor, defenseless subsystem.

[Metahuman1]

A few nitpicks:
-You need loads and loads of feats to do it (without flaws it's not possible in a reasonable level range).

-Knowledge Devotion removes all the knowledge classskills if you exchange it from Knowledge Domain (something to consider if you are counting on it) ... Picking it as a regular feat would further increase the feat cost for the build

-Soulbow has no use since the +wis to damage only applies for the soul arrows (and oh belive me ... you don't want to fire those unless you play Pathfinder)


Other than that the whole idea of persisting Hunter's Mercy is pretty good. I wonder if there is a way to get the good Ranger spells on the cleric list (Which would make the access much easier) ... If not then the entry is pretty much set with 4 levels Ranger and 1 level Cleric. Plus Fighterlevels likely for the feats.
It should be of note however that by strict RAW a persistent Hunter's Mercy does absolutely nothing for you aside from the regular effect due to the wording (it says specifically "next turn" for the effect and not "for the duration") so you might want to check with your DM before (ab)using this.

Really? I thought the Cloister'd Variant just had that added to there skills entry list along with the other changes.

Well, he could just pick both and end up with 2 Domains and a free devotion feat. Or not worry about it and just focus on getting the planning domain and maybe another useful feat. (If absolutely nothing else, there's a Domain that grants Extra Turning for more persisting.).

And it does? That stinks. Aw well, Still get Wis + Str + Power Attack + (Maybe.) Knowledge Devotion + Base weapon Damage X 3 + Weapon Enchantments. That's a lot of damage.

As for feats, Yes, You'd want Flaws, I suggest Vulnerable and None Combatant for some Low Impact ones.

Also, if Persisting Hunters Mercy is a no go, Enchant the bow String to be a trigger activated magic item of it. Every time you draw the string, it casts the spell on you. Since you have to do this as part of firing every shot, you get it on every shot, for the cost of an Item Creation feat and the saving of 2 Metamagic feats. 3, since you now have both Domains to do with as you please for bonus or devotion feats or powers.

It's a first level spell, should be pretty cheap.

As for getting ranger Casting, he could try to get into Prestige Ranger, but, that would likely defeat most of the purpose. Besides, Ranger caps around level 10-11 unless your playing the Wildshape variant. After all, your just there for casting and maybe some bonus feats (don't forget, you can retrain Tracking and Endurance for more useful feats.), and you can get things to boost your caster level if needed.


Edit: Actually, another item to make/Spell to Persist off the ranger list. Find the Gap. See, that way, you don't need to put Brilliant Energy on your bow, but you get the benefits, and as a result, your just as dangerous to Undead and Constructs as everything else.

[Chronos]

There is no Persist Power in 3.5. 3.0 material can only be used in 3.5 if there wasn't an update for it. The Expanded Psionics Handbook explicitly acted as an update for everything psionic that came before it, and thus, any psionic material that wasn't reprinted in it ceased to be valid (at least, until it got reprinted in some later source). And Persist Power never got reprinted in any official 3.5 source, and even the most-often used unofficial source (Hyperconscious) made it much less broken.

[Eldariel]

Actually, I think Fighter 2/Warblade X/Cragtop Archer 4 would be a better combination. IIRC, there are a few maneuvers that are written in such a way as to work with bows. I forget which ones though.

An even better thing would be if you could get your GM to let you use the Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord) from Path of War. It is third party Pathfinder material, but it has higher quality than pretty much everything published by WotC. Specifically, you would be interested in the Solar Wind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/solar-wind-maneuvers) discipline, which is all about archery. And if you have any questions about Path of War material, you can message the Dreamscarred Press writers on these very forums. I know for a fact that Elricaltovilla, ErrantX, and LordGareth have all written for Path of War.

Tiger Claw has Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose. Diamond Mind has Time Stands Still, which is of course insanely good for bows. There's also a workaround for the recharge mechanic of a Warblade; you need a melee attack but if you have any natural attacks, you can just do one as a secondary as a flourish with no penalties, allowing you to recover in conjunction with a full ranged attack.

Either way, Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger and Warblade make for a nice baseline (Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) Rage is great with bows). If you're going for long ranges, you need some way to detect people there; Cragtop Archer makes an inflated Spot-check somewhat viable. You only need a single level to get the important parts. You can then use full volleys in conjunction with Woodland Archery (Races of the Wild) to land decent hits at a range.

[Snowbluff]

Yu should get some nice arrows while you are at it. If you aren't using arrows for range, there are mundane ones that are keen and adamantine for cheap... let me see if I can find them.

There is no Persist Power in 3.5. 3.0 material can only be used in 3.5 if there wasn't an update for it. The Expanded Psionics Handbook explicitly acted as an update for everything psionic that came before it, and thus, any psionic material that wasn't reprinted in it ceased to be valid (at least, until it got reprinted in some later source). And Persist Power never got reprinted in any official 3.5 source, and even the most-often used unofficial source (Hyperconscious) made it much less broken.

Having read the XPH about the revision, I have no evidence to support this person's statement. My argument against the false belief that psionics is better balanced than magic would not be any weaker. However, I did find that the designers agree with me about magic and psionics being on par. Bow down to me, psionics fans, for my thinking is akin to your gods! :smalltongue:

[icefractal]

IME, trying to use 3.0 psionics material in a game is about as viable as using stuff from Dragon. I.e. the DM will consider it as if it were proposed homebrew, quite possibly allowing it but certainly not giving carte blanche to include it regardless of balance.

Supposed compatibility aside, being able to use 3.0 material in 3.5 (or 3.5 material in PF) is not the default assumption for any campaign I've heard of. The DM might specifically allow it, or they might allow it case-by-case, but you can't just assume "well of course Persistent Power is on the table".

Ditto for StP Erudite - that's a variant class, it specifically requires the DM to allow it, much like the Arcane Swordsage or whatever that's called.


So those things are at the level of Irresistable Spell (the one that removes the saving throw). A DM might allow it if either:
A) They're running an extremely high-power game.
B) They don't give a **** about balance.
C) You agree not to abuse it.

Compare that to something like Incantrix, or Persistent Spell, or Astral Projection's entire existence, which exist unless actively banned, and there's a difference there.

[Snowbluff]

IME, trying to use 3.0 psionics material in a game is about as viable as using stuff from Dragon. I.e. the DM will consider it as if it were proposed homebrew, quite possibly allowing it but certainly not giving carte blanche to include it regardless of balance.

Supposed compatibility aside, being able to use 3.0 material in 3.5 (or 3.5 material in PF) is not the default assumption for any campaign I've heard of. The DM might specifically allow it, or they might allow it case-by-case, but you can't just assume "well of course Persistent Power is on the table".

Ditto for StP Erudite - that's a variant class, it specifically requires the DM to allow it, much like the Arcane Swordsage or whatever that's called. 3.0 and web articles are first party and are generally considered viable. Dragon mag is third party and isn't as widely available.

PF games not using 3.5 material is a different matter entirely, since they are not the same system from a different developer who never cared.


So those things are at the level of Irresistable Spell (the one that removes the saving throw). A DM might allow it if either:
A) They're running an extremely high-power game.
B) They don't give a **** about balance.
C) You agree not to abuse it.

Compare that to something like Incantrix, or Persistent Spell, or Astral Projection's entire existence, which exist unless actively banned, and there's a difference there.
Which is another double standard when you're complaining about specificity and viability. Irresistible Spell comes from a campaign specific book that I don't think is widely considered first party (Kalamar is weird). Incantatrix is widely considered viable, but by your own reasoning someone would say "this isn't Faerun" and no one would be able to use it. I'll be the first to say that Incantatrix is good, but MM in general can only produce a specific range of effects and alterations. The innate selection of powers and spells in the game are a million times more offensive to people who care about that sort of thing.

See, this person is demonstrating my problem with this double standard. "Oh, but we can ignore that. We can ignore all sorts of things if it's psionics."

EIDT: Kalamar is a licensed product produced by another developer, as far as I can tell. Some people erroneously (seriously, didn't you grow up around lawyers like me?) as "second party." For the record, you and I are the second party.

[icefractal]

"Generally considered viable" by who? What I'm saying is that in any campaign I've played or run, 3.0 material is not "automatically in" any more than Dragon or homebrew material is. Maybe it used to be back near the start of 3.5, but not so much any more.

Especially something like Persistent Power, which comes from a version of the rules where Psionics and Metapsionics both worked differently than they do now. That's like trying to bring in the Monk's special iterative rate, or something based of 3E Haste that gives you extra actions, or shuriken being throwable three at a time. It's going to be a hard sell.

And come on, the StP Erudite. It's optional, and it's broken on first principles. (And personally speaking, it's a stupid idea that waters down any distinctness between psionics and magic). I don't see a lot of people making the call to allow that.

Edit: Kalamar has a special license unlike other 3PP products, in exchange for WotC having violated a copyright I believe; that's why it's sometimes claimed to have "pseudo first party" status.

[Snowbluff]

"Generally considered viable" by who? What I'm saying is that in any campaign I've played or run, 3.0 material is not "automatically in" any more than Dragon or homebrew material is. Maybe it used to be back near the start of 3.5, but not so much any more. Us. The forum. The 3.5 community at large. Most of our suggestions and tables use freely use 3.0 when speaking and making assumptions about 3.5. Dragon Mag has become pretty common, but it's much more often banned.
[nbc]The more you know.[/quote]


Especially something like Persistent Power, which comes from a version of the rules where Psionics and Metapsionics both worked differently than they do now. That's like trying to bring in the Monk's special iterative rate, or something based of 3E Haste that gives you extra actions, or shuriken being throwable there at a time. It's going to be a hard sell.

And come on, the StP Erudite. It's optional, and it's broken on first principles. (And personally speaking, it's a stupid idea that waters down any distinctness between psionics and magic). I don't see a lot of people making the call to allow that.
A lot of the rules were changed, but as far as I can tell, power points and metapsionics didn't.

StP was a bad idea, but variant classes and ACFs are also considered regular material. As I pointed out earlier, thinking what a DM would consider acceptable with point banning isn't helpful. Magic and psionics would actually be balanced in that instance. :smalltongue:

[icefractal]

Variant classes are on a bit different level than ACF, given they're called out as a suggestion for the DM to possibly use.

It's true than in an ideal world, only the actual balance of something would matter, not the source. However, in practice, the majority of DMs do care about the source, at least to the extent that WotC-published 3.5 stuff just gets to slide in and isn't questioned unless you actually break the game, where-as other stuff gets examined up front and may be refused if it looks too crazy.

As far as "the 3.5 community at large" - this forum, perhaps. I'm a lot less certain that applies to other forums, much less games outside that.

[Platymus Pus]

*Volley of arrows hits group of soldiers

"Sir! Where are those damn arrows coming from?!"

"I don't know Jenkkins, just keep your damn shield up!"

*A single arrow pierces the captains skull

"Screw this, I'm leaving!"

As the squad disperses, a lone archer perched on a mountain miles away nods, having dispersed the bandits.

Essentially, I would like to build an archer that perches himself miles away from the actual battle and rains death upon his enemies, or snipes leaders/officers. I'd also like to stay away from the extremely cheesy stuff (basically, psionics, ect.) and stay as martial as possible, but they aren't completely ruled out.

Also, if you don't mind, could you either post the rulings of what you use or link to something that does? I'm still rather new to D&D so I don't know all of the obscure feats, items ect.

In advance, thanks to those of you who do decide to take the time and help me.

You can get 1000+ range easily, level 20+ you can get miles of range.
Just be aware of stealth being broken as always.
Gnome's crossbow sight will give the ranger you want.

[Seerow]

For what it's worth, calling all of psionics broken because of StP Erudite is like calling all of ToB broken because of Arcane Swordsage. Both are poorly thought out half-presented variants that break the game in stupid ways, and are not generally what is being talked about when you refer to either subsystem as a whole.

[Pyon]

I love this idea, couldn't you take some points in a ranger or druid or something that gives you an animal companion? Then they could spot for you and your snipe them off. I think I'll be attempting a build like this myself :3

[Urpriest]

I love this idea, couldn't you take some points in a ranger or druid or something that gives you an animal companion? Then they could spot for you and your snipe them off. I think I'll be attempting a build like this myself :3

I feel like most of the spells that let you see through a companion prevent you from taking actions, unfortunately.

[Forrestfire]

As noted earlier, Chain of Eyes works for that. Free action to swap vision source.

[Pyon]

As noted earlier, Chain of Eyes works for that. Free action to swap vision source.

Chain of eyes is an item right?... (Noob).

[Forrestfire]

It's a spell from the spell compendium. Making an eternal wand of it costs something like 11,000ish gp, if I remember correctly.

[Snowbluff]

Eternal Wands may only be arcane, and it's a second level arcane spell. 4,420 GP, Magic Item Compendium 159. You'll need UMD to use it without arcane caster levels, I think.

Chain of Eyes is a damn good spell for this. Nice. :smallcool:

For what it's worth, calling all of psionics broken because of StP Erudite is like calling all of ToB broken because of Arcane Swordsage. Both are poorly thought out half-presented variants that break the game in stupid ways, and are not generally what is being talked about when you refer to either subsystem as a whole.
Well, it's like saying magic is broken because of wizards. The ToB is actually balanced, so the analogy falls apart there. The subsystem of psionics, as a whole, is broken. The mindset that says that it is not, is broken and replicated in order to generate liquid ignorance. The mindset that says it's cheesier than magic, is also bad, but people tend to overreact to this and make even more ridiculous and unfounded claims.

[icefractal]

ToB without Arcane Swordsage is balanced, but Arcane Swordsage has loopholes you could drive a Tarrasque through.

And ... just no. A class from the PHB is not even remotely the same ballpark as an optional variant class from a secondary splat. Without even going into which one is more likely to see play, arcane magic would have huge holes if you ditched the Sor/Wiz list, whereas Psionics are complete without the StP Erudite making any appearance.

That said, I can't argue that Psionics contains broken elements, even if you stick to the XPH. Not as much broken as spells, but still a sufficient amount to force mutually assured destruction in a campaign if you're so inclined. Astral Seed, for instance, is what turns the Singularity from "merely" generating an arbitrarily large army of extremely strong creatures to making every one of those creatures arbitrarily powerful as well.

I think you can make a good case that Psionics has less "not NI-capable, but just way too good" powers (like Shivering Touch, or Divine Power) than magic does. And in a lot of campaigns, those are the ones that would actually show up.

[Snowbluff]

I get what you are saying, but there are not any Shivering Touch like powers? Like Ego Whip, which can turn someone into a vegetable even on a successful save with no attack roll?

[Grod_The_Giant]

There's a vestige for this, if I remember correctly. Malphas lets you summon a bird and see through its eyes. As a bonus, it's only level 2, so you can pick it up with a one-level dip and a feat. (You also get a touch of sudden strike, just for ****s and giggles)

[Chronos]

Sudden strike won't help this build, though, since it only works within 30'. I think there's a spell somewhere or another that extends the range of precision damage, though it might only double it.

[Glorius Nippon]

Sudden strike won't help this build, though, since it only works within 30'. I think there's a spell somewhere or another that extends the range of precision damage, though it might only double it.

Sniper shot makes anything within your first range increment count as within 30', super easy to get too.

Working on the build atm guys, will post when done for criticism.

EDIT: It's called Sniper's Shot, and it's a homebrew, link if you want to see: http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Sniper_Shot_%283.5e_Feat%29

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sudden strike won't help this build, though, since it only works within 30'. I think there's a spell somewhere or another that extends the range of precision damage, though it might only double it.
Oh, true. Though the spell (Sniper's Shot, SpC) doesn't have a range limit. Still probably not worth it unless you're firing a volley from that range, mind. (Craven could help, if the DM lets you apply it to Sudden Strike, but you probably don't have a feat to spare)

[Malimar]

For damage, transplant Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) onto your Distance Composite Greatbow for 3000gp (11500-8500 (cost of a +2 composite longbow)=3000).

But make sure to change your name to Hank so all its functions work properly.

[Snowbluff]

But make sure to change your name to Hank so all its functions work properly.

This. I suggest making it your middle name.

[Chronos]

I thought danger was your middle name?

[Vhaidara]

I thought danger was your middle name?

Don't you have 4 middle names? One of which is [variable]?

[Snowbluff]

Don't you have 4 middle names? One of which is [variable]?

Some people aren't baptized Pelorites. :smalltongue:

My middle name won't be "Danger" until I can find a way to optimize it.

[goto124]

How would an Insane Range Archer work with the rest of the group? Won't he have to be far away from all battles while the party takes things head-on (even the squishy flying wizard is closer to the enemy than the Archer)? He might have to depend a LOT on telepathy and other communciation magic just to 'be' with the group...

[Glorius Nippon]

How would an Insane Range Archer work with the rest of the group? Won't he have to be far away from all battles while the party takes things head-on (even the squishy flying wizard is closer to the enemy than the Archer)? He might have to depend a LOT on telepathy and other communciation magic just to 'be' with the group...

That's part of what I needed help with, ideas guys?

*actual build still in progress, should be done in about an hour tho

[Vhaidara]

I recommend an item to allow Flight and another of at-will Dimension Door.

As soon as combat starts, teleport up.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Martial monk epic fighter feats cheese can give you this:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Distant_Shot

so all that's left is seeing your targets.

[Glorius Nippon]

Almost done with the build, but too tired to stay up any longer, although there's something I want to point out that could potentially be absolutely ridiculous.

So Eagles Cry is a special bow that is essentially a MW +5 Composite Longbow (+4 strength), that has double range increment of a normal composite longbow and... gives the user the ability to shoot a max of 20 range increments away. Transmuting this (if you can convince your DM) costs roughly 20,000 GP (a measly cost at the point you want to shoot that far away, which on top of my current optimization gives you a grand total of:

Comp. GB made of dragon bone (150') with distance enchantment turning it into 300' bow.

Far shot so * 1.5 = 450'

+ flight arrows (+ 30') = 480'

20 range increments (* 20) so 480 * 20 = 9600' ~ 1.8 miles.

Not that impressive considering the current record 228,188.9 ft ~ 43.2 miles (link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-253910.html), but that's still before using any scrolls or spells, which you could easily use later on, and considering that we need to catch up with the party at some point, I think the current max range works well enough.

Really just need to find a way to actually see the target now, which should just be a wand or two.

Well I'm off for tonight, might finish tomorrow morning.

[Tarvus]

I think everyones covered the builds better than I could, i.e. suggesting Cragtop and Deepwood Sniper for the +20' increment.

However don't forget Strongarm Bracers from Magic Item Compendium p.139 let you use a Large bow, and reap the increased range increment (+25% iirc?) from that. Being a Goliath from RoS lets you add a category on top of that.

So using whats already been suggested:

Dragonbone Bows get another mundane +20'. Its only 100gp as well, no reason not to add it if you're getting your bow custom made. A Huge Dragonbone Greatbow would have a range increment of 223' and change and is completely mundane.

Distance, Farshot, Flight Arrows = 836' range increment if my calculations are right. They might not be.

If you could apply the Eagles Cry enchant to that, thats about 3.2miles if my conversion is right (again, might not be. Who uses imperial anymore? :smallamused:)

Edit: Just looked at your link. Woah, I feel inconsequential now.

[Chronos]

Another issue with a build like this is, what if a fight happens indoors or underground? Often, in a dungeon, you can't get more than 30' or so away without breaking line of sight.

[Jormengand]

There's a vestige for this, if I remember correctly. Malphas lets you summon a bird and see through its eyes. As a bonus, it's only level 2, so you can pick it up with a one-level dip and a feat.

Of course, if you go DWK, you can grab that damned feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot) so long as you can cheat out the other requirements (Dex 25 isn't hard, Spot 20 before level 17, well, is.)

Or you can go truenamer 14 and give yourself unlimited range blindsight.

Of course, you can take templates to increase your size twice, Truenamer 14/Hulking Hurler 3 levels, Ranged Power Attack, Overburdened Heave and Distant Shot and then you can throw anything you can lift at anything you have line of effect to.

Okay, okay, we're kinda going past the "Non-cheesy" part of it, but shh. :smalltongue:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Of course, if you go DWK, you can grab that damned feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot) so long as you can cheat out the other requirements (Dex 25 isn't hard, Spot 20 before level 17, well, is.)
Martial Monk is easier.

[Forrestfire]

Another issue with a build like this is, what if a fight happens indoors or underground? Often, in a dungeon, you can't get more than 30' or so away without breaking line of sight.

A seeking weapon will "veer toward its target", which could be construed as moving around cover or walls. Maybe the DM would let someone with Brilliant Energy arrows/bow shoot through the walls themselves. The main thing is that since you've got line of sight from spotters, all you need to do is try to get line of effect (or a way to ignore it) for your shot.

[Twurps]

I've always wanted to play a similar archer build as a raptoran. I know it's not TO, but it gives flight even if you keep the build martial, and I like the idea of firing a footbow. (Although strangely, the stats for it are no better than a greatbow if I remember correctly)

[Glorius Nippon]

So the build as I have it is (to level 20):

Race: Human
Alignment: True Neutral

Ability Scores (we have a house rule in my group that humans start at 10 in each, instead of 8) 24 point buy:

Str: 16 (+2 when leveling)
Dex: 18 (+3 when leveling)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

Flaws: Vulnerable, Noncombatant

1st. Ranger (1): Favored Enemy (I would choose Magic Beast in general), Wild Empathy, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Composite Great Bow)
2nd. Ranger (2): Combat Style: Archery (rapid shot)
3rd. Fighter Targeteer variant (1): Arrow Swarm, Far Shot
4th. Fighter Targeteer variant (2): Sniper
5th. Warblade (1): Battle Clarity, Weapon Aptitude
6th. Warblade (2): Uncanny Dodge, Mountain Warrior
7th. Warblade (3): Battle Ardor
8th. Cragtop Archer (1): Adept Climber, Farsight
9th. Cragtop Archer (2): Strike From Above, Weapon Focus (Composite Great Bow)
10th. Cragtop Archer (3): Arcing Shot
11th. Cragtop Archer (4): Horizon Shot
12th. Deepwood Sniper (1): Keen Arrows
13th. Deepwood Sniper (2): Projectile Improved Critical, Forceful Shot, (open feat)
14th. Deepwood Sniper (3):
15th. Deepwood Sniper (4): Take Aim +2, (open feat)
16th. Deepwood Sniper (5): Consistent Aim 1/d
17th. Deepwood Sniper (6):
18th. Deepwood Sniper (7): Consistent Aim 2/d, (open feat)
19th. Deepwood Sniper (8): Take Aim +4
20th. Deepwood Sniper (9): Consistent Aim 3/d

Armor: Mithral Chain Shirt

Weapon: Masterword Composite Great Bow(+5) with Distance(+1) enchantment, Hanks Energy Bow transmuted
Ammunition: either Razorfeather or Flight, depending on if you need 600' more range or not

Equipment (calculated this at level 14, don't have the time to do level 20 equipment, but essentially):
Belt of Strength(+4)
Quiver of Plenty
Boots of Speed
Gloves of Dexterity(+4)
Eternal Wand (Chain of Eyes)

Points into spot, survival, UMD, Move Silently, Jump, Climb

So, criticism?

Note this is the first time I've posted a full build so I probably messed up something/ left something out so if you notice something missing, please reply.

[Vhaidara]

For your favored enemy, Complete Mage introduced an alternative: Arcanists. It applies against anything with Arcane spellcasting, It requires that you put a rank in Knowledge (Arcana), but it's a solid investment.