Full attack of monsters

[Raul Leão]

So, looking at this monster for example:

WYVERN
pict
Large Dragon
Hit Dice: 7d12+14 (59 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+15
Attack: Sting +10 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) or talon +10 melee (2d6+4) or bite +10 melee (2d8+4)
Full Attack: Sting +10 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) and bite +8 melee (2d8+4) and 2 wings +8 melee (1d8+2) and 2 talons +8 melee (2d6+4)

Isn´t the full attack too powerfull?

Like if it get 1 in all damage dices it still does 29 damage + poison!!

it´s normal?

For a CR of 6 it can easily kill a level 6 mage for example...

How can players avoid this full attack?

[Renen]

I think its brcause to hit is not great, and chances that it manages to get off a full attack on a mage are low.

[DeltaEmil]

It is highly doubtful that a level 6 non-melee combatant would stay in melee range for an enemy's full melee attack routine. At most, the wyvern might land a hit with its poisonous sting. If the wizard survived for example, he or she would then disengage, or more likely, use some spell like for example dimension door or invisibility to escape (the Concentration check to cast defensively is easy enough even with a reduced Constitution score, and if it's not easy, the wizard would most likely already be dead from the reduced Constitution score), or buff allies with a haste spell to allow them to make short work of the wyvern, blind the wyvern with a well-placed glitterdust, stun it for 1 round with a color spray, drastically weaken the wyvern with a ray of exhaustion, fascinate it with a hypnotic pattern, blind it permanently with a blindness/deafness, blind it with a pyrotechnics, entangle it with a web, all this with only core material before the wyvern can act in the second round and make a full attack.

The wizard might also just take a 5 foot step, use a move action to take out some item like for example a tanglefoot bag, and then use a standard action to throw it against the wyvern to entangle it, and let the party rogue, fighter, and cleric smash the wyvern into submission and force it to serve the party.

With noncore-options, noxious smokesticks, shivering touch, abrupt jaunt alternate class features, being a necropolitan, being permanently incorporeal or immune to ability damage/poison and other shenanigans become possible to make it even less of a problem.

[Vhaidara]

It doesn't have Pounce, so it has to start its turn in range of the character it wants to full attack. If it moves beyond a 5-ft step, it can't make a full attack.

[NNescio]

Meanwhile the (NPC) barbarian charges...

(doesn't even have to be an ubercharger or a lion totem barb. Standard 2-H power-attacking build would work.)

But yeah, pouncers and chargers are more dangerous than the wyvern, and any mage worth his salt has 2nd and 3rd level spells at hand to provide a whole suite of defensive options.

[Raul Leão]

But lets supose:

A character moves 3 squares to get range, atack de wyvern and take 5 foot step back.

The wyvern can make the 5 foot step foward and make a full attack, right?

[Vhaidara]

But lets supose:

A character moves 3 squares to get range, atack de wyvern and take 5 foot step back.

The wyvern can make the 5 foot step foward and make a full attack, right?

Well, you can't take a 5ft step if you had other movement in your turn, and since I'm pretty sure the wyvern has reach it wouldn't need to move up towards you, but yes, this is how full attacks work. Against monsters like this (scary full attack but no pounce), you want them to engage on you (they come in range and get a single attack), then you step forward and full attack them.

[PurpleSocks]

Yeah it can, but it's still not a valid threat as a standalone monster at level 6. With no spells or spell likes, no real intelligence with in which to come up with a plan unless it gets crazy lucky with the dice, no halfway competent party will have a problem with a Wyvern.

A wizard riding a Wyvern however would be much more frightening.

[Raul Leão]

but if i make the full attack, it won´t die probably, so i take the full attack next round... im scared hahahaha

[Flickerdart]

At level 6, a caster should have an AC of at least 17. 10 + 2 Dex + 4 from your handy dandy feycraft thistledown mithral chain shirt and another +1 from a feycraft buckler.

This means that the wyvern needs at least a 7 on its primary attack (65% chance) and at least a 9 on its secondaries (55% chance). Average damage is therefore 7.5*0.65 for its primary and 48*0.55 for its secondaries, for a total of 31 average damage. Your typical wizard (14 CON for 4+5d4+12, or 28.5 hp) will go down but won't die. Literally anyone who has any business in front-line combat will be fine.

Now, there are problems with getting off the full attack. The wyvern is slow on the ground and clumsy in the air, so the chances of it actually getting into position are slim. It's also very vulnerable - attackers will be hitting at 6 (BAB) + 5 (STR) + 1 (masterwork weapon) = +12 at the least, for a nice 70% chance of hitting. With 59 HP, no DR< and rubbish initiative, the wyvern should never live long enough to get in place for a full attack.

[Eldariel]

but if i make the full attack, it won´t die probably, so i take the full attack next round... im scared hahahaha

Melee combat is about getting full attacks. But frankly, vs. enemies like Wyverns it's generally more efficient to just grab a bow/thrown weapon, Tumble away and take a single shoot after it closes in on you; let your ranged elements handle it if you fear the melee. Monster melee attacks are pretty scary as a rule - they have big damage dice, a number of attacks and fairly good attack rolls plus often some nasty special attacks. That said, you can have AC 23-24 when wielding a shield on these levels: +1 Fullplate, +1 Heavy Shield, +1 Ring of Protection, 12 Dex = 10 + 1 Dex + 9 Armor + 3 Shield + 1 Deflection = 24 AC for 2650 Plate + 1170 Shield + 2000 Ring = 5820gp total, under half of the expected wealth on this level.

You can also fight defensively while using a two-hander to much the same effect (23 AC with the same equipment but defensive fighting instead of shield) if your function is primarily to absorb full attacks (optimally you'd just kill it but it's always good to be adaptive and pick the highest expected value option in any given situation). Wyvern specifically is unlikely to hit you more than once-twice and thus, if you're a warrior type you'll be able to shrug it off easily enough. Alternatively, you could trip it causing it to fall and be prone making its attacks pathetic, if you're equipped for that. It's got decent resistance (Large, +4 Strength) but if you're a tripper you should have over 50% chance of succeeding and two attacks in a turn on level 6.

[Raul Leão]

We dont use magic items... the max we can get are masterwork weapons...

[Raul Leão]

but i got the point guys, thanks!

I´m searching for a boss, i thought wyvern would be a nice idea, but it seems weak now. Any idea? I need a boss for 6 players of level 6~8.

We are only using core books....

My idea was a very thin man, that colected souls of children and locked them into a crown, and when he put the crown he gain much power, so he transform into a very strong monster....

[DeltaEmil]

Well, you can't take a 5ft step if you had other movement in your turn, and since I'm pretty sure the wyvern has reach it wouldn't need to move up towards you, but yes, this is how full attacks work. Against monsters like this (scary full attack but no pounce), you want them to engage on you (they come in range and get a single attack), then you step forward and full attack them.The wyvern is Large, but does not have the normal 10 foot reach like other Large-sized bipedal creatures.

The theoretical wizard would shoot at the wyvern with a crossbow. Then the wyvern charges the wizard, making only one attack, since it has no pounce. Then the rest of the party defeats the wyvern, either making full attacks themselves, or charging the wyvern, or charging and making a full attack at the same time in the case of some leopard animal companion (no need for spirit lion totem whirling frenzy barbarians).

Although in truth, it would be that the wizard readies an action to move away when the wyvern comes closer than 15 feet, the wyvern attacks the wizard with a charge, the charge is foiled because the wizard moved away as part of his readied action, the rest of the party beats up the wyvern, no spell was wasted to subdue the wyvern, and no expensive equipment like a single bolt was wasted either (hey, one bolt costs 1 silver - for 1 silver, you could get a pound of iron, which is surely useful for something), and now the party has a pet wyvern to make wyvern poison from.

[Eldariel]

but i got the point guys, thanks!

I´m searching for a boss, i thought wyvern would be a nice idea, but it seems weak now. Any idea? I need a boss for 6 players of level 6~8.

We are only using core books....

My idea was a very thin man, that colected souls of children and locked them into a crown, and when he put the crown he gain much power, so he transform into a very strong monster....

It's generally better to use a number of opponents than one really strong one. Also, CR 6 refers a creature is, against an average group of average level 6 with average luck and average resources on an even battlefield, a run-of-the-mill fight. So for boss monsters you should look significantly higher; CR 10 is about a 50/50 fight for a group of four average level 6 characters with average luck and average resources on an even battlefield.

Note, CR is not exact science; it's a ballpark and a fairly inaccurate one at that. All the things I said above vary: Some groups of any given level are more powerful than others. Experienced players going all-out on strong character classes can accomplish many times more than new players on any class; an expert can always outperform a newbie for obvious reasons, though it's not a guarantee that they choose to.

Some groups just have ridiculous stats or items or really strong class comboes. Sometimes players get lucky with rolls and beat enemies significantly stronger than they should be able to on average. All it takes is one bad saving throw for most single boss enemies to be out of commission or dead.

Sometimes the battlefield is, due to luck or preparation, in the players' favor and a principally strong opponent just cannot do much. Elements that scramble magic vs. casters, mundane obstacles for non-casters, cover, traps, surprise, etc. all alter the difficulty of an encounter.


For the thing you're planning, a crown like that would scream some spirits to me; perhaps he could turn into a Devourer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devourer.htm) (the collected souls would fuel his "Trapped Essence") aided by a number of Wraiths (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm), Allips (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm) or Shadows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) (manifestations of some of the souls broken out; Allips seem quite appropriate, shadows projected by the tortured souls captured within).

With a large group it would be winnable. Indeed, Devourer is fairly squishy but powerful; having some undead with it (again, I like Allips; they act as both, crowd controllers and threats that are dangerous to ignore) would serve to make sure it doesn't die immediately. It would make for a climatic, tough battle and very probably kill some party members judging by their optimization level but it'd be a fight to remember and one they can probably win. Hard to evaluate exactly without knowing the party make-up.


EDIT: Though they'd absolutely need you to allow them to hit the Allips with weapons somehow. Normally non-magical weapons are useless against incorporeals but perhaps you could have them coated in Holy Water or cast Magic Weapon on or whatever to imbue them to the point that everyone can contribute. Normal level 6-8 party is expected to have magic weapons, so you'll need to either give them that or handwave the fact that non-magical weapons can't hit incorporeals if you want to use them (they seem appropriate).

EDIT#2: I just noticed, SRD entry of Devourer is missing the Fortitude-save to resist Trap Essence. It's a DC 19 Fortitude after the attack hits.

[Flickerdart]

We dont use magic items... the max we can get are masterwork weapons...
The CR system assumes magic items. Without them, monsters are much more dangerous.

[Raul Leão]

My party is very poor in combat strategy, all they think is get close, attack, take hit, attack, take hit, attack .......

Ill buy a heavy flail and make the trip ass thing (trip in the AoO for getting up infinitely untill kill), they´ll probably say im cheating and stuff hahaha. I mounted charge once, all of them got impressed and asked how? how?

[Deadline]

Ill buy a heavy flail and make the trip ass thing (trip in the AoO for getting up infinitely untill kill), they´ll probably say im cheating and stuff hahaha. I mounted charge once, all of them got impressed and asked how? how?

The bolded part doesn't work. AoO interrupt the action that triggered them, which means that when you take the attack, they haven't stood up yet, so you can't trip them. No infinite tripping chains.

[Zubrowka74]

Slap a template on it. Or give it pounce plus a few minions, that'll take them by surprise.

[Eldariel]

The bolded part doesn't work. AoO interrupt the action that triggered them, which means that when you take the attack, they haven't stood up yet, so you can't trip them. No infinite tripping chains.

You can, however, take your free attack and trip again next turn: much the same effect.

[Deadline]

You can, however, take your free attack and trip again next turn: much the same effect.

Similar, but not the same level of lock-down. At that point it's just damage rather than out-of-turn BFC.

[Raul Leão]

oh, didnt now about the free move after stood up haha

[Snowbluff]

Man, I remember being shredded by an ogre type critter for like 70 damage once. :smalltongue:

Miss chances and Ac would help. Miss chances are static, making them handy. Iterative and secondary natural attacks usually have a penalty to hit. As long as you don't fall off of the range of attack ratings in the game for your level, you should be fine. Don't over do it.

[Eldariel]

Similar, but not the same level of lock-down. At that point it's just damage rather than out-of-turn BFC.

Well, you're effectively CCing them by making them spend a move action to get up leaving them with only standard and swift; no full attacks, move-and-cast setups to worry about (5' step doesn't get you out of spiked chain reach; by strict RAW you can probably 5' step after getting up tho since getting up is not "movement") and they can't even withdraw (not that they would, that action sucks). Also, if they try to move out or do anything that provokes, you get another AoO which you can use to trip them again (of course, there are lots of ways around that but that can't be helped with these sources).

Chaining trips would have little advantage over just tripping each turn: Tripping means enemy can't move (well, crawl 5' a turn which provokes but that's not very efficient) and their attacks suck and they're easier to hit. Them getting up accomplishes the same thing since they gotta use their move action for that so they can't full attack (attacks suck) and they can't really move and do anything relevant (since they only have standard action left - they can take a move action but that doesn't get them to safety nor allow them to do anything they couldn't have done anyways).

In short...

Chain trip:

No normal movement.
-4 to hit and AC vs. melee.
Can't use bows.


Get up'n'trip:

Free AoO each round.
Can only move OR do something.
Can't full attack, with bow or otherwise.


Ultimately, you're pretty ****ed in either way, if you're a martial type. And if you're a caster, you're not very ****ed either way unless enemy has Mage Slayer. Without it, any caster who can make Defensive Casting Concentration doesn't care and those odds are pretty good even when it's not automatic. Even with Mage Slayer though, swift action spells don't care either way so it only works to a point. Still better odds for the non-caster than otherwise tho.

[Flickerdart]

After you've knocked down a monster in melee, it shouldn't even get to the point that you're taking your AoO when it's getting up, because by that point your buddies should have already killed it. -4 AC means "attack this guy right freakin' now."

Murder is the most effective form of lock-down.

[Eldariel]

After you've knocked down a monster in melee, it shouldn't even get to the point that you're taking your AoO when it's getting up, because by that point your buddies should have already killed it. -4 AC means "attack this guy right freakin' now."

Murder is the most effective form of lock-down.

That's the ideal case scenario, but it isn't always feasible. Occasionally one might have to fight without buddies (maybe they're all dead, disabled, or whatever, or maybe you got mazed solo or caught in a plane shift trap or have to embark on a one-man mission for whatever reason; or maybe you're playing solo and happen to have no hirelings at the moment). There are also cases where melee types are restricted in their targeting so in a party with 1 melee and 3 ranged types, the ranged resources can focus on the higher priority enemy resources while the melee resource does what he can (Dragon-fights can easily be such since even with flight, Dragons just fly way faster than most humanoids under flight magic so it can quite likely breath-strafe a melee trying to chase it in the air to oblivion - more convenient to have the warrior take down the Dragon's golems or skeletons or other less mobile forces). And hell, if the target is just really tough (say, a couple of extra lives or whatever), it might survive a round of pounding anyways.

[Flickerdart]

Sure, there are edge cases, but most of your fights aren't going to be solo and/or against dragon minions.

[atemu1234]

After you've knocked down a monster in melee, it shouldn't even get to the point that you're taking your AoO when it's getting up, because by that point your buddies should have already killed it. -4 AC means "attack this guy right freakin' now."

Murder is the most effective form of lock-down.

Reminds me of something my CE cleric said when someone asked for healing.

"Murder is the best medicine!"

[Flickerdart]

"Murder is the best medicine!"
Murder is the best form of everything.

[ace rooster]

A few things have been neglected about wyverns, and they are pretty important. Firstly the standard MM wyvern has flyby attack. Coupled with a low land speed this suggests that the wyvern should mostly be fighting on the wing. The occasional sting attack is all that is needed to disable many attackers. ie, sting, wait to see if it dies, if it doesn't then repeat.

The second thing that has been neglected is that wyverns have improved grab, and that it does automatic sting damage on a successful grab. Against a single foe often a flyby attack talon attack can be enough to end an encounter, as a grapple check of +15 can be difficult to beat. If the wyvern can get one of the party out of reach of the rest of the party this would be the way to go.

Thirdly wyverns cannot use their talons if they are on the ground, and cannot use their wings when they are not. Wyverns can only use 4 of their 6 attacks on any full attack.

Fourthly, wyverns are big and fairly strong. Trips might work, but are unlikely to be reliable.

Finally, while not hugely intelligent, wyverns know their own abilities. They also have a decent hide, move silently, spot and listen checks. They will probably not use terrain to their advantage, and misjudge which targets are a threat, but their tactics will not be suicidal.

[Flickerdart]

Thirdly wyverns cannot use their talons if they are on the ground, and cannot use their wings when they are not. Wyverns can only use 4 of their 6 attacks on any full attack.

Someone's never trained their wyverns in Perform: Breakdance Fighting.

[Jeraa]

Thirdly wyverns cannot use their talons if they are on the ground, and cannot use their wings when they are not. Wyverns can only use 4 of their 6 attacks on any full attack.

Talons can be used on the ground. Otherwise, having talons on monsters like the deinonychus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#deinonychus), which can not fly, would be totally useless. Edit: NEvermind - the wyvern entry does say it can only use its talons with a fly-by attack.

And while it doesn't have to hold true for all creatures, true dragons are noted as getting their wing attacks while flying. Avoral guardinals are noted as not being able to use wing attacks while flying.

[Flickerdart]

Talons can be used on the ground. Otherwise, having talons on monsters like the deinonychus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#deinonychus), which can not fly, would be totally useless.

And while it doesn't have to hold true for all creatures, true dragons are noted as getting their wing attacks while flying.
Actually, that's an interesting question. The wyvern entry says, "a wyvern can slash with its talons only when making a flyby attack." However, its talons are listed in its full attack entry.

[ace rooster]

I think the talons entry is included for DMs who give their wyverns hover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm) (which is a solid choice). This is the most obvious occasion that a flying wyvern will be able to make a full attack. Hover explicitly prevents monsters from using wing attacks, which was what I was thinking of when I thought flying prevented wing attacks. A wyvern could use a wing attack in flight, but it would be an odd choice given that it is it's worst attack. This is certainly how I would rule it, but the wyvern entry is pretty ambiguous.

If someone were to cast fly on a wyvern then a 6 attack full attack could be possible, but surely there are better uses of 3rd level spell slots.

Another thing to remember that I had forgotten about is that diving charges do double damage with talon attacks. fly special ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly). It's charge can be faily brutal.

[Zubrowka74]

Dragons are two limbs ahead of of the wyvern. The latter have to stand on two legs although they could arguably make it as some kind of jump kicks, using the wings to generate a little air time.