Best Starter System?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Hey everyone

So next year I'm planning on running an RPG of some type for my girlfriend and our roommate, but I'm not entirely sure what would work best for us. I have little experience myself, having played in a handful of 3.5 campaigns that never took off the ground, but I'm very familiar with the system. I'm also very familiar with the system for the new World of Darkness, and have a brushing experience with Rogue Trader and Deathwatch.

My girlfriend has only played in one 3.5 campaign that never took off the ground.

Her roommate has never played a table-top game, but she's a huge lover of computer RPGs, so DnD mechanics at least should come naturally to her, and she has a big interest in both Fantasy and Sci-Fi, but is 3.5 really the best starting system?

[neonchameleon]

The first question for best system is what they are into. And no, 3.5 is not how I'd recommend anyone starts. Far too many rules and far too much on your character sheet. If you can't fit the stats you need onto an index card (and mechanics to a second) it probably isn't newbie friendly.

My recommendations:
Fiasco (http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/) is a borderline RPG - but a great storytelling game and very simple. Also an excellent "We've got an hour and a half to kill" (playthrough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXJxQ0NbFtk))
If they are fans of fast moving action and plot twists, one of the MWP Cortex+ games - Firefly (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/128012/Firefly-RolePlaying-Game-Corebook) being the obvious but if they love the Leverage series or the heist genre the Leverage RPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/85727), and if they are comics fans track down the old Marvel Heroic Roleplaying (http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-Heroic-Roleplay-Basic-Game/dp/1936685167)
If you want a dungeon crawling D&D style adventure, Dungeon World (http://www.dungeonworldsrd.com/)
If you want a tight hardcore dungeon crawl, Rules Cyclopaedia D&D (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/17171/DD-Rules-Cyclopedia-Basic?it=1).
For pulp adventure (the default RPG style) Atomic Robo (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/130204/Atomic-Robo-RPG) or the generic Fate Core (http://www.evilhat.com/home/fate-core-downloads/).

All of these suggestions will be easier to learn and run than 3.5 or WoD. I'd argue all of them combined would be easier than 3.5.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

The best starter system is the one you eventually choose, of course. :smallbiggrin:

Beyond that, I would agree that 3.5 is not a good starter system. neonchameleon has some great suggestions, and nWoD is frankly a pretty good starter system as well, so long as you're going with Mortals and core nWoD. (The various supernatural characters start to make things much more complex.)

[Broken Twin]

Core nWoD is pretty good for beginners, as is Savage Worlds. If you want a fantasy d20 system, D&D 5E isn't that bad (certainly easier to teach than 3.5).

Really, it depends on what type of game you want to play. Certain systems favour certain styles of gameplay.

[BWR]

People can start with quite complicated stuff, especially if the GM is familiar with the system and can easily answer players' questions. The most important reason to have a simple mechanic for starters is if everyone is green.



If you want a tight hardcore dungeon crawl, Rules Cyclopaedia D&D (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/17171/DD-Rules-Cyclopedia-Basic?it=1).
.

The RC has a lot of stuff that goes beyond dungeon crawls: a wide variety of skills, wilderness adventures, campaign setting info, multiverse description, mass combat, domain management, divine ascenion, optional rules and 36 levels of play. If you really want a simple introductory D&D system, go with Basic, in whatever flavor you want. It's very simple, very basic, and you should pick up most everything within a session or two. Expert should follow on rather quickly.

[neonchameleon]

Core nWoD is pretty good for beginners, as is Savage Worlds. If you want a fantasy d20 system, D&D 5E isn't that bad (certainly easier to teach than 3.5).

For Fantasy d20 for newbies it's between 5e and the higher action more heroic feeling 13th Age (http://www.13thagesrd.com/). For hardcore boardgamers 4e's very possibly the way to go.


People can start with quite complicated stuff, especially if the GM is familiar with the system and can easily answer players' questions. The most important reason to have a simple mechanic for starters is if everyone is green.

The OP was saying they were pretty green.

[aspekt]

While 3.5 may be 'hard' if this is what you are most familiar with I would start with that.

5th ed. is looking good as well. Perhaps their starter kit would be good.

If you do start with 3.5 just stick to the core rules books (Dungeon Masters Guide, Player's Handbook, and the Monster Manual) and dont even worry about the pile of supplemental material for a while.

(The supplemental material is another upvote for 3.5 IMO if you find that you are enjoying the game.)

And really that's the bottom line. Are you all enjoying the game?

[Honest Tiefling]

Did your girlfriend enjoy the 3.5 campaign? Did her roomate ever play Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate or anything like that? And I think another question that is missing is what do you wish to DM? Is there a system you enjoy, or a type of game you want to play? A DM who enjoys the game is worth quite a lot and will help make planning the game fun, not a chore.

Tastes vary, so perhaps if there is a block of time do a one-shot in several different systems to sample them and then vote.

[kyoryu]

My recommendation would be any of the Apocalypse World games (Dungeon World, Apocalypse World, Monsterhearts, Monster of the Week, etc.) based on what genre interests your players.

[AstralFire]

Spirit of the Century or any of the lighter FATE games is good if someone is really allergic to crunchy stuff. If you're using a d20 system, 5E D&D is the simplest to begin.

[kyoryu]

Spirit of the Century or any of the lighter FATE games is good if someone is really allergic to crunchy stuff. If you're using a d20 system, 5E D&D is the simplest to begin.

The Evil-Hat made Fate stuff would be good if you've got a GM that's experienced with Fate.

The *World games are a bit easier for unfamiliar GMs.

I'd definitely recommend 5e over 3/4, but I might go B/X if you're willing to go back to TSR era.

[Jay R]

A lot of people won't like this answer, but it's true.

It doesn't matter what the system is.

The system matters a great deal to hard-core gamers, because they will delve deeply into its workings. But that's not who you're asking about.

Your new players won't read the rules anyway. If your rulings make sense to them, and they can make decisions that are effective, then it doesn't matter what the system is; your game will be a success.

If your rulings do not make sense to them, and they can't make decisions that are effective, then it still doesn't matter what the system is; your game will be a failure.

[1337 b4k4]

Jay R is right. What you're comfortable running and how you present it will generally be far more impactful than the actual system. That said, if you can wrap your head around how to run the game, my recommendation as a go to game for new folks is Dungeon World (assuming you want a D&D like game). It's a fast system that doesn't require a lot of up front choices from your players. You as a DM decide (based on what your players say) when to roll dice. Your players don't have to go through a series of moves and actions and reactions and jargon. There's a couple of basic moves that are very open ended and a handful of class specific moves. When your players want to do "something" they describe what and how they do it and you pick a move that's triggered by what they describe. As long as you are confident running the show and moving being a fair judge, it's a fantastic system to new people because it's everything D&D promises with much less hard restrictions.

Rules are free and found here: HTML Rules (http://book.dwgazetteer.com) and you can buy a pdf if you like.
And probably before you jump into the rules, you might read through the guide first to see if it clicks with you: guide (http://www.curufea.com/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=roleplaying:dw:dungeon_world_guide _pdf_version_1.2.pdf)

Ultimately though, you're players will have a better experience if you are comfortable with whatever you're running, and can present that to them in bite sized chunks, whatever it is.

[Knaight]

A lot of people won't like this answer, but it's true.

It doesn't matter what the system is.

The system matters a great deal to hard-core gamers, because they will delve deeply into its workings. But that's not who you're asking about.

Hard core gamers will consistently be much better at articulating why they like or dislike a particular system. In practice, I've found that even new people tend to form obvious preferences extremely quickly. GM competence can skew this pretty well, but I've found that newer people with under 10 sessions under their belt with different systems do have strong system preferences. From this it's pretty reasonable to assume that the system affected their enjoyment of the games they were in, which likely included the first one. I will say that my sample set is heavily skewed towards people who play a lot of board games and people studying for technical fields (mostly computer science), and that it's very possible that the system matters a lot less to people less involved in games and mathematical systems. I doubt it doesn't matter at all.

As for starting systems, I generally use either Fudge or WR&M. Both are pretty simple, both can be picked up quickly, and I've found that people tend to favor rules light systems (at least starting out). Plus, I GM better with them. I wouldn't necessarily recommend Fudge in this case though; it's a wonderful system for new players; it's a lot less wonderful for new GMs.

[AstralFire]

A lot of people won't like this answer, but it's true.

It doesn't matter what the system is.

The system matters a great deal to hard-core gamers, because they will delve deeply into its workings. But that's not who you're asking about.

Your new players won't read the rules anyway. If your rulings make sense to them, and they can make decisions that are effective, then it doesn't matter what the system is; your game will be a success.

If your rulings do not make sense to them, and they can't make decisions that are effective, then it still doesn't matter what the system is; your game will be a failure.

This is not remotely true in my experience. I have had a lot of experience bringing new players in over the years, and certain systems have been much easier to do this with than others, with a degree of independence from my success at running that system for experienced gamers. People have preferences even if they're not aware of them, and having a good read on that individual person can help you know what mechanics they'll like.

[Jay R]

This is not remotely true in my experience. I have had a lot of experience bringing new players in over the years, and certain systems have been much easier to do this with than others, with a degree of independence from my success at running that system for experienced gamers. People have preferences even if they're not aware of them, and having a good read on that individual person can help you know what mechanics they'll like.


A lot of people won't like this answer, ...

Q.E.D.


... but it's true.

I've started people with original D&D, with TOON, with Flashing Blades, with AD&D 2E, and with Champions. In all cases, I protected them from really knowing the system until they were already hooked, and in all cases, they enjoyed it and got involved.

If they don't have to learn the system first, then the system is close to irrelevant.

I agree with you that if you will involve them in the system at first, then choosing a system is important. I find the genre far more important than the system. But I avoid doing that until after they are already involved in the role-playing. This also has the advantage that the rules minutia are thereby presented as tools to allow the role-playing which is the core of the game, rather than having the rules be the core of the game, on which you can overlay role-playing.

[Faily]

A lot of people won't like this answer, but it's true.

It doesn't matter what the system is.

The system matters a great deal to hard-core gamers, because they will delve deeply into its workings. But that's not who you're asking about.

Your new players won't read the rules anyway. If your rulings make sense to them, and they can make decisions that are effective, then it doesn't matter what the system is; your game will be a success.

If your rulings do not make sense to them, and they can't make decisions that are effective, then it still doesn't matter what the system is; your game will be a failure.

I agree with this.

When I started, it was Kult (running Fudge-system though). It was so rules-light, in hindsight I would call it closer to free-form since we almost never rolled dice. After that, I started on D&D 3.5, but houseruled to a level-less system.

In the end, the system didn't matter (the GMs helped with them anyway and didnt expect me to sit down and read the player manual right away); the game itself matters. If the game is fun and gets you hooked, system-learning comes later.

[AstralFire]

Q.E.D.



I've started people with original D&D, with TOON, with Flashing Blades, with AD&D 2E, and with Champions. In all cases, I protected them from really knowing the system until they were already hooked, and in all cases, they enjoyed it and got involved.

If they don't have to learn the system first, then the system is close to irrelevant.

I agree with you that if you will involve them in the system at first, then choosing a system is important. I find the genre far more important than the system. But I avoid doing that until after they are already involved in the role-playing. This also has the advantage that the rules minutia are thereby presented as tools to allow the role-playing which is the core of the game, rather than having the rules be the core of the game, on which you can overlay role-playing.

That does not make your statement true as a rule. It merely says that you've gotten it to work with people that you know. I've found that many people cannot have the system "hidden" from them. This perhaps relies on personal charisma or circumstances of the people whom you come into contact with. It's a valuable perspective, but that does not make it true as a rule.

[kyoryu]

Q.E.D.

I've started people with original D&D, with TOON, with Flashing Blades, with AD&D 2E, and with Champions. In all cases, I protected them from really knowing the system until they were already hooked, and in all cases, they enjoyed it and got involved.

If they don't have to learn the system first, then the system is close to irrelevant.

But, isn't that the same thing as saying that the system *is* relevant? I mean, if you feel you have to hide some systems, but not others, then doesn't mean that the system is at least somewhat relevant?

I mean, even with a complete newbie, I wouldn't feel the need to "hide" one of the Apocalypse World systems from them. But I absolutely would with GURPS (I love GURPS, don't get me wrong).

[Mutazoia]

IMHO you should talk with your players and find out what kind of game they are interested in playing, and then choose a system based on that.

Honestly a relatively simple generic system such as the D6 rule-set should let you handle just about any game setting with out loading you down with rules. I've started several people on gaming with the old D6 Star Wars...we had characters created and were up and running almost instantly.

[Comet]

Having a book with cool pictures for passing around the table helps.

And, for me personally, a character sheet with some personality to it helps too . Many D&D character sheets manage to have an uncanny resemblance to tax forms, which puts me off immediately. The player is going to be staring at that thing for hours, might as well make it worth looking at.

[MKV]

I would personally recommend a retro-clone of an early D&D edition. In my opinion the best edition for new players is Moldvay Basic, for sheer simplicity of rules, wealth of available material, and out-of-the-box play-ability. A free retro-clone is available here (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.html).

[draken50]

You want to run a system that you can easily run, and more-so teach gradually.

3.5 is really complicated in a lot of ways, so I tend to go by 3 rules for new players.

1) No casters, the larger amount of options and rules becomes daunting and mathy for new players, and tends to require referencing the book way too often.

2) Show, don't tell. Introduce mechanics by having enemies use them, ideally no more than 1 or 2 at a time. Want players to understand flanking? Have some goblins flank. Want them to know about aid another actions? goblins use their action to raise the to hit bonus of a bugbear.

3) Make sure the players understand the benefits of their class, and make use of them. New players will have sorcerers shooting crossbows instead of using spells, and create fighters without armor dual wielding daggers. Also if someone plays a rogue, they need to know how sneak attack works. Often newer players think barbarians and monks are crazy overpowered because players rarely mess them up. Every new player I've seen make a barbarian always went for Power Attack, and a some kind of large 2-hander like a greataxe.

[Jay R]

But, isn't that the same thing as saying that the system *is* relevant? I mean, if you feel you have to hide some systems, but not others, then doesn't mean that the system is at least somewhat relevant?

I mean, even with a complete newbie, I wouldn't feel the need to "hide" one of the Apocalypse World systems from them. But I absolutely would with GURPS (I love GURPS, don't get me wrong).

I repeat, "In all cases, I protected them from really knowing the system until they were already hooked, and in all cases, they enjoyed it and got involved" (emphasis added). That isn't hiding some systems but not others.

Me: OK, you know what weapons your character is carrying. You see two <type of enemies> running out of the trees at you. What would your character do?
New player: Shoot them, I guess.
Me: OK, good idea. Now pick the one you want to shoot. OK, now roll that die (or those dice). Since their protection is <X> and your ability is <Y>, you need to roll <Z> to hit. [He rolls.] Great - you hit! Now roll <damage dice> to see how much you hurt him.

Which game am I describing? Original D&D with a short bow, AD&D 2E with a longbow, Flashing Blades with a rapier, or Champions with a fireball?

It doesn't matter. The system is irrelevant if the decisions are made based on character, and the DM keeps track of the mechanics.

[Knaight]

Q.E.D.


Prefacing your statement with "a lot of people won't like this answer" does not somehow nullify what everyone else says, and you are as of yet the only person who has consistently had system not matter. Clearly it doesn't for some people, clearly it does for others.

[aspekt]

I repeat, "In all cases, I protected them from really knowing the system until they were already hooked, and in all cases, they enjoyed it and got involved" (emphasis added). That isn't hiding some systems but not others.

Me: OK, you know what weapons your character is carrying. You see two <type of enemies> running out of the trees at you. What would your character do?
New player: Shoot them, I guess.
Me: OK, good idea. Now pick the one you want to shoot. OK, now roll that die (or those dice). Since their protection is <X> and your ability is <Y>, you need to roll <Z> to hit. [He rolls.] Great - you hit! Now roll <damage dice> to see how much you hurt him.

Which game am I describing? Original D&D with a short bow, AD&D 2E with a longbow, Flashing Blades with a rapier, or Champions with a fireball?

It doesn't matter. The system is irrelevant if the decisions are made based on character, and the DM keeps track of the mechanics.

Honestly this has been my approach over the years whether I was the GM or a fellow player helping the newbie out.

[Nagash]

In my experience its NWoD core book, mortals only.

I've used it to run everything from straight up D&D fantasy in Golarion to a firefly based sci fi game.

Its simple, easy to pick up and if your players are book adverse you can even skip the merits for the first short campaign.

Can you break it? Heck yeah, but newby players wont even be trying to do that, much less succeed.

The character sheet basically explains the game.

Want to shoot? Dex plus firearms.
Want to hit? Strength plus melee
Want to talk to someone? Are you being witty or just hot? Either presence or manipulation plus socialize.

Roll all them D10's the more 8's and higher you get the better the result.

Easy to understand for a new gamer and a good GM can turn those rolls into just about anything cool. Even on a fail you can fail in a logical fun way that makes sense.

** unless you critically fail. That just sucks. But its really rare.

[Eldan]

Depends what your players like. I know some players who love number crunching and a big complicated system to sink their teeth into. There are people who love nothing more than digging through book after book of options and tables and calculating what is best for their characters. There are others who loathe complicated rules.

FATE works reasonably well as a rules-light starter system, especially one of the slimmed down versions. One relatively simple core resolution mechanic and not too many ways to modify it. Also quite story oriented, as "My character is good at X because his personality is Y" is always a valid argument, as that is exactly how aspects work.

[hifidelity2]

How about the old D6 version of Star Wars

If they like Sci-Fi then they will know the world, a good way to hook them inot the game. Characters are quick to create as they are mainly a template, and the rules are easy (roll above X using those Die to hit / succeed ) with not to many skills

[Fouredged Sword]

If you want something interesting and simple, consider Dread. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dread_RPG). No dice, minimal character sheets.

And a Jenga tower.

Have fun and hope your players have steady hands.

[LibraryOgre]

I tend to go with the suggestion "Whatever the DM is comfortable with". If you don't like the system, and if you don't know it, then the game becomes more bogged down in your mechanical problems than the game itself.

IME, RPGs tend to have a lot of Pizza Theory of Cognition about them... that is, whatever your first introduction to them is, that becomes RPGs (or pizza) to you. People who started with AD&D tend to view things through the lens of AD&D. This can be overcome with time, but it does tend to color your future perceptions of RPGs (and pizza).

If you're familiar with, and comfortable with, multiple systems, it's a good idea to choose the one you like the best, or think they will like the best. If you know one system, do that one system, because they'll have more fun when you're not fighting the game.