Alternate form and racial skill bonuses

[Hiro Quester]

Does a druid in wildshape (or other Alternate Form changes) lose his racial bonuses to skills and replace them with the new form's racial bonuses?

Racial bonuses seem to apply because of the particular physical form you have. Apes have the right kinds of hands and feet that are better for climbing, tigers have camouflage stripes that make them good at hiding in long grass, etc.

e.g. if a gnome, would lose the +2 to listen and craft alchemy.

Wildshaped into Leopard form they would have padded feet, better camouflage, claws, and bigger leg muscles. So it should gain the racial bonuses of +4 to Move Silently and Hide, and +8 to Jump, Balance and Climb that comes with those physical features. shouldn't it?

RAW, the rule says "Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses."

Presumably racial bonuses to skills would be covered by that "not limited to". But sensibly, a brightly dressed humanoid changing into a well-camouflaged (in long grass) tiger should augment the creature's ability to hide, shouldn't it?

Yes, I know common sense and the rules don't always fit. That's why I'm hoping there is some further clarification somewhere I don't know about. Is there?

[Hiro Quester]

Answering my own question, I just found in the "Polymorphing Revisited (part three) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060516a)"



Racial Traits
Since alternate form doesn't change your type and subtype, it's simplest to rule that you retain any of your racial traits that aren't otherwise barred by the alternate form effect. That means that you'd keep any racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and the like, but you wouldn't gain those of the new form. Even though your body appears similar to that of a normal creature of the new form, you don't have its lifetime of experience in the body, and therefore don't necessarily share its natural aptitudes.

So "simplest to rule" perhaps makes this a "talk to your DM" thing.

I have a spreadsheet that can be easily programmed to add any racial bonuses. So I can make it relatively easy to deal with.

Especially the bonuses that aren't "natural aptitudes" (jump) but how it looks (hide) might be reasonable to change. And those that result from new natural appendages (like how claws help in a climb check for a Leopard form) might be reasonable too.

[eggynack]

The conclusion you've reached is the correct one, that you maintain these racial bonuses in different forms. Racial skill bonuses are special qualities, which means that you neither lose them from your old form, nor gain them in the new one. I think they're extraordinary in nature, which means that you could change the latter with enhance wild shape, but I'm less sure on that count.

[Hiro Quester]

I just found this at the Wizard's site (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060523a), that explains the changes to the polymorph rules.

While they don't say anything about the racial skill bonuses, they use them in their examples of how wildshape works.

They give an example of a 6th level druid with stats, and then show her stats while wildshaped into Viper, Eagle and Leopard forms.

The examples' skill bonuses in wildshape only make sense if you add in the racial skill bonuses.

For example, in Leopard form her climb bonus goes from +4 to +19. This is because she loses the -4 to Climb from her ACP (armor-3 and shield-1). She gets the leopard's strength bonus +3 (above her original +0), and gets the Leopard's racial bonus (+8). So this all adding +15 to her original +4 to climb checks to give +19.

In all the example transformations, the racial bonuses carry over. All the Leopard's racial bonuses (to jump, move silently, hide, balance, etc.) are also there, not just the ones related to movement modes.

So it seems that you lose your original racial bonuses to skills (my gnome's bonus to hide, listen and craft alchemy) and replace them with the new form's. Seriously, keeping the +4 to hide (+8 to hiding in forests) when wildshaped into a huge dinosaur would be ridiculous, anyway.

This is especially good for forms used for scouting; you get the animals racial bonuses to spot and/or listen.

She doesn't get the racial bonus feats, unfortunately. The Viper's racial bonus Weapon Finesse does not carry over in viper wildshape (making her to-hit in viper form much weaker than it wold be for a real viper that uses its dex mod for attacks).

Which means (bizarrely) that I keep my Forest Gnome's racial ability to use pass without trace. And I'll keep it even when in huge dinosaur forms. Okay....

[eggynack]

I wouldn't put much stock in example stat blocks in general, especially as part of a web article. The rules on alternate form are rather clear, and they state that you both retain special qualities of your old form, and fail to gain special qualities of your new form, except as applies to specific listed exceptions. Examples can be useful where there exists an ambiguity, but I don't think an ambiguity in the rules exists here.

[Hiro Quester]

Hmmm.. Yes, I guess "special qualities" includes racial traits. So the wildshape's disguise as a leopard gives you the leopard's claws for attacking, but not for balancing or climbing.

And me as a leopard doesn't get the leopard's +8 t hiding in overgrowth, even though I get a +10 to the "disguise effect" when using it to be disguised as a leopard.

It's all very weird. :small annoyed:

thanks for your patience, here, eggynack.

[eggynack]

Transformation magic does tend to lead to some odd things, yeah. It's worth note, however, that you do gain the leopard's +8 racial bonus to climb checks, because that ability is specifically granted by the leopard's climb speed, which is gained in wild shape. Balance doesn't seem to have a similar source though.

[JaminDM]

I would say that thay keep the mental ones; but not the physical ones of their original form.