Balance - Warblade & Psychic Warrior

[JW86]

Hi playgrounders,

I'm a player in a new 3.5 game at level 2. I'm playing a Lesser Tiefling Warblade. Another party member is playing an Elan Psychic Warrior.

It's come to my attention it feels a little unbalanced - Warblade has d12 hitpoint, full BAB, repeatable abilities with good refresh mechanic. Psychic Warrior gets d8 hitpoint, 3/4 BAB, limited number of powers and pp/day. True, the Psychic Warrior gets heavy armor so a slightly higher AC, but really, I'm wary of the situation potentially going a bit like, "Glory to the Warblade".

Now, I want for my character to be heroic and do glorious, hilarious things, of course. I'm just a little wary of 'outshining' other characters, I want for everyone to have fun and feel their character contributes something special and awesome etc.

I'd be interested to hear people's opinions of balance between these two classes. I can understand Psychic Warrior having 3/4 BAB, I assume they were comparing it to Fighter and not wanting it simply outclass it in every way. But then Warblade is later released with awesome stuff. Is it just the power creep over the years of 3.5?

So, are they balanced? Is there the potential for a P.W. to be as good as or even outmatch a Warblade through clever use of Powers and Feats?

I believe I'd find your opinions on this topic very interesting!

Thanks

[Elricaltovilla]

The two classes are about on par with each other, both are good damage dealers with some useful tricks. The Warblade is more combat focused, and intended to be better at taking hits than the psychic warrior, at least early on. However, as the characters level the psychic warrior will become more durable and will have more stuff to do besides combat.

What makes the biggest difference between the two is the way they fight. PsyWars are buffing gishes, they usually spend their first round powering up and then run in to tear face with things like Psionic Lion's Charge, Expansion and other powers that make them bigger and hit harder. The Warblade though, can afford to rush in and strike on the first turn, making it like a melee version of a blaster-caster.

Because of this, the PsyWar can take a little longer to get up and running, and needs to be a little higher level before it gets to its goodies, whereas the Warblade is stronger from the get go but doesn't advance as quickly.

[DeltaEmil]

Apparently, yes. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=9j72crc1kf8s45sdmhp17tl6t6&topic=4890.msg164275#msg164275)

[ZamielVanWeber]

If I had to compare them I would place psychic warrior above warblade. Warblade hits things hard with little effort, which is nice, while psychic warrior takes some love to make work. The things is, psychic warrior can pull off some truly impressive stunts and just be a combat beast. Warblade's power is higher floor and lower ceiling than psychic warrior's, so if he is struggling to keep up with you it could be his build needs some love.

[Troacctid]

So, are they balanced? Is there the potential for a P.W. to be as good as or even outmatch a Warblade through clever use of Powers and Feats?

At low levels? No. Warblades are a strong contender for the #1 best class in the game at low levels. At level 2, unless there's a significant discrepancy in the skill level of the pilots, the Warblade is probably just going to be better and there's not much the PW can do about it.

At mid to high levels, it starts to even out. Psychic Warriors scale well into the late game. Granted, so do Warblades to some extent, but once you have a decent supply of power points, your options get a lot better and you can keep up pretty well. (A good Wisdom score makes an enormous difference in this regard.) Psionics also give you access to noncombat utility powers, which is something Warblades don't get a lot of. A well-played Psychic Warrior is comparable in power level to a well-played Warblade.

However, a poorly-played Psychic Warrior will be outclassed by a Warblade of any skill level. Psychic Warriors have very limited powers known and limited daily resources, and as a result it's very easy to screw them up. Warblades, in contrast, are very difficult to screw up--you can pick your maneuvers by throwing darts at the book and still be a force to be reckoned with because of the redundancy and natural synergy in their maneuver list. In other words, the ceiling is about the same height for both classes, but Psychic Warriors have a much lower floor.

There is an easy shortcut that any Psychic Warrior can take to beat a Warblade at his own game: multiclass into Warblade (or Crusader or Swordsage). Because of the way initiator levels work with multiclassing, you get access to high-level maneuvers with only a single level's investment (provided you do it at the right level), and you still have all your Psychic Warrior powers on top of it all.

[Urpriest]

However, a poorly-played Psychic Warrior will be outclassed by a Warblade of any skill level. Psychic Warriors have very limited powers known and limited daily resources, and as a result it's very easy to screw them up. Warblades, in contrast, are very difficult to screw up--you can pick your maneuvers by throwing darts at the book and still be a force to be reckoned with because of the redundancy and natural synergy in their maneuver list. In other words, the ceiling is about the same height for both classes, but Psychic Warriors have a much lower floor.

Seconding this. New players often play Psychic Warriors like low-op Fighters who happen to have access to a few buff spells (and then pick only the most familiar-looking buff spells). Psychic Warriors have a high ceiling, but players need to be aware of their unique tricks to get the most out of them.

[Ssalarn]

Seconding this. New players often play Psychic Warriors like low-op Fighters who happen to have access to a few buff spells (and then pick only the most familiar-looking buff spells). Psychic Warriors have a high ceiling, but players need to be aware of their unique tricks to get the most out of them.

Thirded. Psychic Warrior can actually pretty seriously out-perform the Warblade both on and off the battlefield, but like any "caster" system mastery makes a big deal. Feat and power selection, knowing when to conserve and when to spend your focus, and even how you distribute your stats makes a much bigger difference with the Psychic Warrior than it does with the Warblade. The Psychic Warrior also takes a few levels to really hit its stride, compared to the Warblade who kind of hits the ground running.

It's similar to how a barbarian compared to a blaster mage can make the mage seem weak, especially if the mage is being built/played by a character with relatively low system mastery. The barbarian will be better at the thing the blaster wants to do (deal damage), will have crazy more hp, probably better saves, etc. That doesn't mean the barbarian is a stronger class than the wizard, it just means the wizard has a low floor and a high cieling, and the barbarian's floor is higher than the wizard's, but it's also a lot closer to his low cieling.

Things I'd focus on as a PW:

1) Take advantage of your ability to choose psionic feats. Being able to ratchet up your damage and then spend your focus to nail someone's touch AC can be a big deal, and you can pump your damage higher than even the Warblade.

2) Have a plan for your powers. Choose powers that stay relevant over the course of your career, try not to choose mutually exclusive (non-stacking) options, and make sure they support an overall goal for your character, whether that be invulnerability, mobile DPR, etc.

3) Buff, buff, buff, smash, smash, smash, blow focus for the win. Make sure you're using your psionic focus, and make sure you know when to hold on to it to take advantage of your more passive options, and when it's time to burn it up for a win move. Improving your ability to regain focus is also important as your level rises.

4) Autohypnosis. It's like the best skill in the game, and practically has a few spell effects baked right into it. Know what it does and be sure to use it every chance you get to improve your performance.

[JW86]

Some awesome replies, thank you.

So I guess things like using Expansion and a reach weapon, Hustle and Psionic Lion's Charge, Strength of my Enemy, using Deep Impact with Power Attack, etc. etc. can all help a lot. That's great. I'll link him to this thread for some inspiration. :)

[Ssalarn]

Some awesome replies, thank you.

So I guess things like using Expansion and a reach weapon, Hustle and Psionic Lion's Charge, Strength of my Enemy, using Deep Impact with Power Attack, etc. etc. can all help a lot. That's great. I'll link him to this thread for some inspiration. :)

I did a quick look around for you, it seems like this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361785-PF-Slicing-Clawing-and-Smashing-a-Guide-to-the-Pathfinder-Psychic-Warrior-WIP&highlight=psychic+warrior+guide) is fairly decent, if not 100% complete. It may help him with his build.

**EDIT**

Just noticed that the guide is for the Pathfinder version of the Psychic Warrior, so there may be some suggestions that aren't appropriate for the 3.5 version. I'll leave the link though since some of the stuff should apply to both systems and he might glean some useful information or ideas from it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

This handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?162701-3-5-The-Psychic-Warrior-Handbook) was very helpful when I set out on playing a good Psychic Warrior.

[Feint's End]

I did a quick look around for you, it seems like this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361785-PF-Slicing-Clawing-and-Smashing-a-Guide-to-the-Pathfinder-Psychic-Warrior-WIP&highlight=psychic+warrior+guide) is fairly decent, if not 100% complete. It may help him with his build.

**EDIT**

Just noticed that the guide is for the Pathfinder version of the Psychic Warrior, so there may be some suggestions that aren't appropriate for the 3.5 version. I'll leave the link though since some of the stuff should apply to both systems and he might glean some useful information or ideas from it.

I really have to finish that one sometimes. Yeah it is for Pathfinder but the basics of the class didn't really change.

The biggest strength of the Psywar is the ability to go nova. A full buffed Psywar is hard to beat in versatility and RAW damage.

Some general thoughts:
-Share Pain + Vigor should be one of the first priorities (those alone will make the Psywar more tanky than Warblade)
-Hustle is better than Psionics Lion Charge IMO due to it being more versatile
-Expansion is fairly good early on and gets even better later ... a must have for strength based builds
-Mantled Warrior for Freedom mantle is great ... +10feet movement speed and access to powers like fly and most importantly dimension hop

I can maybe take a look through EPH and CP tomorrow and see if I find some more

[Telok]

While the Psicraft skill isn't native to Psychic Warriors it's worth getting for this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown).

PsyWar 4 or 5, Warblade 1, then into Slayer is really nice because you get better BaB and real class features that are rather useful. Also a straight PsiWar with Psionic Body and all other feats being Psionic Talent isn't bad if you pick good powers and play well.

Alternately a 50/50 Warblade/PsiWar can chain Emerald Razor and Deep Impact continuously while having goodies from both sides of the equation.

[Thurbane]

I'm having similar issues with my group - it's the first time we've had a Warlock in play, and also first time for a ToB character (Warblade). Others at the table are feeling like their abilities are a bit OP.

The Warlock especially is drawing this attention (it doesn't help that the player rolled godlike ability scores [which I witnessed]: 17,17,16,16,14,11). All day long 2d6+sickening ranged touch attacks at up to 250 feet are causing unrest among the other players.

The Warblade has been commented on for his "all day long" special abilities (which he can refresh mid combat without losing a turn), but since he is an Aasimar and 1 level behind the party, not as much as the Warlock.

The party is Human Bard 3 (very underwhelming, didn't roll great for stats and put them in odd areas - used Con as a dump stat!), Illumian Duskblade 3, Catfolk Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 1 (two-weapon fighter, will be going Daring Outlaw), Human Warlock 3 and Aasimar Warblade 2. The Catfolk and Aasimar will be using level buyoff as soon as they have enough XP.

...so how do I prove to the other players that the Warlock and Warblade abilities aren't broken? Alternatively, how should the other players optimize their characters so as not to feel "left behind"? The Duskblade is a new player (this is her 2nd character, other one was a Ranger played for a few weeks before the current campaign) and sometimes forgets she is a caster (with an 18 Str and two handed weapon, easy to do at low levels).

I'd also like to drop in some nice items for the party as treasure - what's good for an ECL 3 Bard, Duskblade and/or Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 1?

[Svata]

My advice? Tell then to wait a couple of levels. Duskblade and Daring Outlaw builds take a bit to get rolling, so they generally won't be as strong at this point. As for the bard... I dunno, actually. Maybe steer him towards DFI, and some IC optimization, possibly even giving him dragontouched as a bonus feat to help him along.

[Sam K]

The type of game you play can matter a great deal as well. Low powered games (especially with new players, and/or at low levels) tend to be slugfests with drawn out combat where HP damage matters. Warblades are great at that. Some potions or lesser vigor and they can fight forever! Psychic warrior will catch up, especially if he picks up some good utility powers. Lower optimization floor, though, as so many has said previously.

Thurbane, how weak is the party if the warlocks average of 7 points of damage per round is upsetting people? I don't mean this as an insult, it's just... low level warlocks aren't exactly the height of power? Still, to let some other people shine, perhaps have them fight something that is immune to being sickened, and has low AC but decent HP. The warlock won't have as much of an advantage with touch attacks then, and the damage he can do really isn't that high. Are you throwing very long combats or too many encounters per day at them?

[Troacctid]

Warblades are broken at low levels. Duskblades can keep up later on (much like the Psychic Warrior), but that won't be for a while, and the Daring Outlaw will probably never catch up at all. That's the thing about Warblades--they're balanced okay over the course of 20 levels, and they get outclassed by casters eventually, but if you just look at the first 5 levels or so, they have a tendency to blow everyone else out of the water.

Warlocks, on the other hand, are merely strong role-players in combat. Your Warlock is good at dealing reliable single-target damage from a safe distance, but he's going to be relatively squishy, and a lot less comfortable in close quarters. And ultimately, while his attacks are more accurate, they're still dealing less damage than a greatsword would.

Bards are underpowered at low levels. They don't really pick up the slack until around level 7 or so, when they can start using get 3rd level spells. Even then, it takes a lot of system mastery to build and play them effectively, so a less experienced player will wind up being underpowered for a lot longer.

Daring Outlaws are underpowered at all levels. Swashbuckler is a trap. Easily worse than Fighter or Monk, and I don't think it's especially close either. Rogue is not quite that bad, but its strength lies in skills, not combat--and with a Bard in the party, I strongly suspect that player is going to be outclassed there, too, or at least redundant. All hope is not lost--he can eventually pick up Staggering Strike for a pretty kickass debuff on all his sneak attacks, and if he plays his cards right, he could make a great charger with Catfolk Pounce, sneak attack, and Two-Weapon Fighting--but that won't come online for a while, and it's a ton of work to do what the Warblade is already doing, without any work at all. And to add insult to injury, lots of enemies will be immune to it, too.

Duskblades are fine, but like I said, they take a few levels to come into their stride. Right now their spell-channeling is enough to match what the Warblade is doing, but they can only do it a few times a day, where the Warblade can do it all the time. Later, though, they should be able to outdamage the Warblade pretty easily, thanks to the scaling damage on their spells. It gets even better for them once they can channel on a full attack. Ultimately, they should end up feeling pretty similar to a Warlock, except melee instead of ranged, and with better burst damage but more limited spell slots. In this specific case, your Duskblade will probably be worse than the Warlock just because of the Warlock's godly stat array.