Atlas Shrugged in D&D

[Talakeal]

Yeah, IF you want out without having your family guilt you for it, ask to play a psion and get kicked out.

If you actually want to play...

Why not play a wizard? He's not banned the things that actually break the game.

Play the god/batman-wizard. Play it even without intent to ruin the game. Don't craft items; temporarily enchant your party's gear. Buff them. Control the battlefield, since you don't have damaging spells anyway.

Prepare contingencies.

And use Planar Binding, but grossly underplay its utility unless you need to to turn a loss into a victory. Let the DM think he's got you on the ropes, and that you barely squeaked it out. Give the show of ramping up your power in increasing "desperation."

IF you want to play in his game without being frustrated, play along and pretend to be nearly-outclassed, especially when you know you aren't. Make YOUR game all about seeing how close to the line you can play it so the DM always thinks he's challenged you and that you and the party pulled it out by the skin of your teeth...even though you know you actually only looked challenged because you decided to only use your left hand while balanced on your right foot.

I actually thought about it, although now he has decided to simply ban all arcane casters as PCs*. I don't think it is for any balance reason, but to keep us in a low magic game.

I had a weird conversation with him the other night though. He insisted that sorcerers sucked compared to wizards (which is true, comparatively) but that was a good thing, and he was piling a bunch of house rule nerfs onto sorcerers to further discourage people from playing them.

*Yes, all of them. Even the poor bard.


As mentioned upthread, Talakeal lives on Bizarro World and posts through a dimensional portal. I don't think he has ever even told a story that wasn't about an insane or psychotic DM/player/group, because his universe is the direct opposite of all that makes sense. It's a world where ToB, psionics, and two-handed weapon fighters with high mental stats are OP - in our universe, this DM would be in the Worst DM Hall of Fame, but for Talakeal it is just Tuesday, he has never known anything else...

Well, I suppose I can share a gaming story like that; last week I played mage, and it was really fun, and the DM didn't nerf anyone and respected their character, and we all got into our roles and accomplished a lot and had a good time, and then after the game we went out for dinner and talked for a few hours and had a blast and I can't wait until the next session. Not quite as entertaining though, and I don't really need any advice about anything, so not really a thread starter on its own. But trust me, there is hope out there for me yet.

[kaoskonfety]

Well, I suppose I can share a gaming story like that; last week I played mage, and it was really fun, and the DM didn't nerf anyone and respected their character, and we all got into our roles and accomplished a lot and had a good time, and then after the game we went out for dinner and talked for a few hours and had a blast and I can't wait until the next session. Not quite as entertaining though, and I don't really need any advice about anything, so not really a thread starter on its own. But trust me, there is hope out there for me yet.

Well ya... no epic tales are told about the journey where everything went pretty ok. It rained a bit but was pleasantly warm. We saw a deer crossing the road. We had scones with our tea, but we were out of jam :( We called it an early night.

Ok every so often a session like that, but just to make them paranoid.

[Deophaun]

I had a weird conversation with him the other night though. He insisted that sorcerers sucked compared to wizards (which is true, comparatively) but that was a good thing, and he was piling a bunch of house rule nerfs onto sorcerers to further discourage people from playing them.
I don't necessarily disagree with him. But that's because I find Tier 3 to be the optimal power level for most campaigns, so I'm less concerned about bringing a Tier 2 and a Tier 1 into equity than I am in nerfing (or banning) both.


Anyway, if arcane casters are out, it's CoDzilla time.

[The Glyphstone]

I actually thought about it, although now he has decided to simply ban all arcane casters as PCs*. I don't think it is for any balance reason, but to keep us in a low magic game.

I had a weird conversation with him the other night though. He insisted that sorcerers sucked compared to wizards (which is true, comparatively) but that was a good thing, and he was piling a bunch of house rule nerfs onto sorcerers to further discourage people from playing them.

*Yes, all of them. Even the poor bard.



Well, I suppose I can share a gaming story like that; last week I played mage, and it was really fun, and the DM didn't nerf anyone and respected their character, and we all got into our roles and accomplished a lot and had a good time, and then after the game we went out for dinner and talked for a few hours and had a blast and I can't wait until the next session. Not quite as entertaining though, and I don't really need any advice about anything, so not really a thread starter on its own. But trust me, there is hope out there for me yet.

Isn't this the Mage game where one of the other players threw a tantrum because they were a Life Mage, and you creating a new character who also have the Life Arcana was totally stealing their spotlight and making them useless?

[Talakeal]

Isn't this the Mage game where one of the other players threw a tantrum because they were a Life Mage, and you creating a new character who also have the Life Arcana was totally stealing their spotlight and making them useless?

Actually no. One of the other players (who happens to be the DM in question in my OP) was trying to create trouble by telling me has was mad at me and I should feel bad for stepping on his toes when we talked in private. Once I actually knew the player in question well enough to talk to him about it he said it wasn't an issue at all.


I don't necessarily disagree with him. But that's because I find Tier 3 to be the optimal power level for most campaigns, so I'm less concerned about bringing a Tier 2 and a Tier 1 into equity than I am in nerfing (or banning) both.


Anyway, if arcane casters are out, it's CoDzilla time.

Pretty much. He believes arcane casters (and psionics) are broken because of blasting spells. He doesn't acknowledge that CoD or Bat Man could ever be game breaking because they don't do as much damage.

Actually, that conversation is pretty much how this topic started. I was trying to convince him that CoDzilla was broken and used DMM / Night Sticks as an example, at which point he declared it wasn't an issue because if a PC cleric ever got ahold of a night stick (or any other game breaking item) their church would immediately seize it. I asked him to explain and he gave me pretty much the premise of my OP in this thread as a hard and fast fact of his campaign world(s) and every game he has ever played in that was run by a competent DM.

[Deophaun]

Pretty much. He believes arcane casters (and psionics) are broken because of blasting spells.
Definitely druid then. Definitely.

Boreal wind all the things.

[Arbane]

Actually no. One of the other players (who happens to be the DM in question in my OP) was trying to create trouble by telling me has was mad at me and I should feel bad for stepping on his toes when we talked in private. Once I actually knew the player in question well enough to talk to him about it he said it wasn't an issue at all.

Somehow, I am not surprised. :smallannoyed:


Actually, that conversation is pretty much how this topic started. I was trying to convince him that CoDzilla was broken and used DMM / Night Sticks as an example, at which point he declared it wasn't an issue because if a PC cleric ever got ahold of a night stick (or any other game breaking item) their church would immediately seize it. I asked him to explain and he gave me pretty much the premise of my OP in this thread as a hard and fast fact of his campaign world(s) and every game he has ever played in that was run by a competent DM.

The Dunning-Kruger Effect is an amazing thing....

I'm pretty sure you can still CoDzilla a fair bit without nightstick shenanigans, just not for as long.

[BootStrapTommy]

I actually thought about it, although now he has decided to simply ban all arcane casters as PCs*. I don't think it is for any balance reason, but to keep us in a low magic game.

I had a weird conversation with him the other night though. He insisted that sorcerers sucked compared to wizards (which is true, comparatively) but that was a good thing, and he was piling a bunch of house rule nerfs onto sorcerers to further discourage people from playing them.

*Yes, all of them. Even the poor bard. Sounds like a delightfully deranged human being.

I suppose I'd suggest introducing him to the idea of tier gesalting, or letting those poor underprivileged martial characters gesalt with NPC classes and other poor underprivileged martial classes. Tier 3 and 4 just NPC. Tiers 5 and 6 with each other or NPC. Balances things nicely.

Banning caster because "Hey let's play an incredibly low magic campaign" is one thing. Banning them because "balance" is just lazy.


Well, I suppose I can share a gaming story like that; last week I played mage, and it was really fun, and the DM didn't nerf anyone and respected their character, and we all got into our roles and accomplished a lot and had a good time, and then after the game we went out for dinner and talked for a few hours and had a blast and I can't wait until the next session. Not quite as entertaining though, and I don't really need any advice about anything, so not really a thread starter on its own. But trust me, there is hope out there for me yet. I like your other stories better.

[Talakeal]

Sounds like a delightfully deranged human being.

I suppose I'd suggest introducing him to the idea of tier gesalting, or letting those poor underprivileged martial characters gesalt with NPC classes and other poor underprivileged martial classes. Tier 3 and 4 just NPC. Tiers 5 and 6 with each other or NPC. Balances thing nicely.

Banning caster because "Hey let's play an incredibly low magic campaign" is one this. Banning them because "balance" is just lazy.

I like your other stories better.

He also thinks martial characters are broken too mind you.

He is firmly in the camp of "Dealing damage and having a high hit bonus / AC are the be all and end all of power" camp.

[BootStrapTommy]

He also thinks martial characters are broken too mind you.

He is firmly in the camp of "Dealing damage and having a high hit bonus / AC are the be all and end all of power" camp.
Remind him versatility is real power in 3.x.

Mutually Ensured Destruction
Remind him that when everything is broken, nothing is broken. Fire has an interesting way of fighting fire.

Personally sounds like laziness to me. Doesn't want to have to put any effort into challenging encounters. "Why be a real DM and make something when I can just nerf the players?"

Maybe e6 would be right up his alley...
Or 4e and 5e...

[Zyzzyva]

Maybe e6 would be right up his alley...
Or 4e and 5e...

While I'd love to hear which of the trinkets from the trinkets table he bans as OP, my vote is still for quarantining him in 3.X. :smalltongue:

[NichG]

Actually, he's converging on a fundamental truth of D&D, just in a very piecemeal way:

- PCs are overpowered

The game is designed to make it so that even after fighting hundreds of battles against a designated spectrum of opponents, the probability of a TPK is low enough that it tends not to happen every campaign. That means that things are heavily weighted towards the PCs - after all, the monsters suffer a TPK each and every battle.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, he's converging on a fundamental truth of D&D, just in a very piecemeal way:

- PCs are overpowered

The game is designed to make it so that even after fighting hundreds of battles against a designated spectrum of opponents, the probability of a TPK is low enough that it tends not to happen every campaign. That means that things are heavily weighted towards the PCs - after all, the monsters suffer a TPK each and every battle.
Yeah, but monsters are built with that in mind. If the tables were reversed, the PCs would still win, if only because of things like at-will dominate being much more powerful in the hands of people willing to abuse it.

Let's face it, every PNP game requires the DM to practice a certain amount of restraint, whether commanded by the system itself by way of "level-appropriate encounters" or regular decency.

[BootStrapTommy]

While I'd love to hear which of the trinkets from the trinkets table he bans as OP, my vote is still for quarantining him in 3.X. :smalltongue: Aye, maybe for the best.

[goto124]

Boreal wind all the things.

Does that mean you fart all your enemies to death? *makes farting sounds*

[NichG]

Yeah, but monsters are built with that in mind. If the tables were reversed, the PCs would still win, if only because of things like at-will dominate being much more powerful in the hands of people willing to abuse it.

Let's face it, every PNP game requires the DM to practice a certain amount of restraint, whether commanded by the system itself by way of "level-appropriate encounters" or regular decency.

Most DMs take some time to learn or realize that, and even then many take some time to actually let go and come to terms with the fact that they're supposed to lose, each and every game. It looks to me like Talakeal's DM is in the mindset that he wants to win (occasionally, or often) - he wants the PCs to fail, or wants to derive enjoyment from striking them down or causing them hardship. The thing is, in his mind, the system is fighting him because it's poorly designed - e.g. he still believes that the PCs aren't supposed to win more than half the time, and he doesn't understand how that would make having a campaign be impossible in a system where losing = death.

So to him, everything seems broken because it lets the PCs defeat his encounters without paying the toll of agony or inconvenience that he wants to extract. But he hasn't realized that this is actually what the system is supposed to do, so one by one he's trying to remove options in order to recover something that he believes is hidden somewhere in the game, but isn't really.

He may find a way to create the environment he wants through house rules, etc, and will likely find a subset players who are okay with that (antagonistic DMing is a whole sub-style of play, and there are players out there who enjoy it, the same way there are people who enjoy things like 'I Wanna Be the Guy'). Alternately, he'll eventually consciously realize this aspect of the DM/Player relationship and will end up adjusting his way of viewing the game. This may depend on whether his style costs him players or friends, how deeply he thinks about things, if he tries other game systems, etc.

[goto124]

What game system would support it, Call of Cthulhu?

[kaoskonfety]

What game system would support it, Call of Cthulhu?

The PC's "losing"?

HOL
Paranoia
Call of Cthulu
Any grim-dark horror setting
Kobolds Ate My Baby...

Games that change objectives and the fun of it from "overcoming challenge" to "confronting your vast unrelenting doom"

[Elderand]

In general, if you are writing with language which means something in the real world, it is assumed that what you write about is the same as in the real world except where otherwise stated. Assuming otherwise leads to such asinine assumptions as, "Obviously, because they didn't say otherwise and there are magic martial arts which don't exist in the real world, the poles are actually quite hot, and ice is formed when water rises to extreme temperatures. Those coats the water tribe wears are to keep cool!"

Or, "Clearly, because magic is being performed in the scene in The Sword of Truth wherein Darken Rahl is feeding a child whom he's burried up to his neck in the floor, and they don't say otherwise, it's actually normal to eat in that setting through your hands. But magic is making the kid eat through his mouth. Also, the whole thing takes place under water, because it doesn't say otherwise. 'Air' is just another word for 'water,' and 'wind' another word for 'current,' in that setting."

I see you made it to layer panda fish 17 B of the far realm. Here is your complimentary inverted chtuloid kangaroo whale. Enjoy your stay.

[Segev]

I see you made it to layer panda fish 17 B of the far realm. Here is your complimentary inverted chtuloid kangaroo whale. Enjoy your stay.

Sir! I am offended! Thank you! His Expectorant Holiness salutes and condemns your selfish generosity!

[Loxagn]

He also thinks martial characters are broken too mind you.

He is firmly in the camp of "Dealing damage and having a high hit bonus / AC are the be all and end all of power" camp.

He thinks magic is broken, and he thinks mundane characters are broken. What would he have you all play? Commoners?

Honestly Talakeal, this is a strictly Out-of-Character problem, and there's really not a way of dealing with it in-character. The mantra on here is 'No gaming at all is better than bad gaming.' It's clear that you're not enjoying it, and if he legitimately causes you to feel guilty for not gaming with him, offer to run a game for him or invite him to another game if you're not comfortable DMing.

Or perhaps, if neither of those appeal to you, gently approach the subject of another system. One that isn't balanced around the existence of magic quite as much as Dungeons and Dragons. I've heard good things about Legends of the Five Rings, though I've never played myself.

Or maybe World of Darkness? If you're playing vanilla or Hunter, then your characters are all going to be mundane in a magical world, so he ought not have room to complain.

Of course, that might not be the problem at all. It's entirely possible he just wants to control the player characters so much they're castrated to the point of being almost-useless, regardless of the system. In which case my only advice to you is to get out as soon as possible. I would happily direct you to places you can find skype groups for this sort of thing instead. It'd be much better for you in the long run.

[Libertad]

What Loxagn said. You know, this is rather specific to the 3.X/Pathfinder crowd, but I see a consistent demand for low-magic gritty games where PCs are not expected to have magic weapons and the like. It's weird because the D20 ruleset is horrible for this.

Also, Talakeal, why are you still playing with this group? What enjoyment are you gaining out of it? Everything you told is is only bad stuff. Even if they're your friends, why not play something else, like an MMO or multi-player game on Steam?

[TheCountAlucard]

Pressure from his parents, remember?

[gom jabbarwocky]

Just ask to play a psion. Boom! Mission accomplished, now you have one extra free night every week or whatever.

Mainly, I just feel bad for the noobs in this group. They've never known any other way, like the children chained inside a cave, never knowing sunlight or freedom.

[Synar]

This whole thing has convinced me that your DM deserves a placque in the Worst DM Hall of Fame.

OP fighter? There is no such thing in 3.x. Not without ToB. But honestly, ToB isn't even broken. At least not compared to the ever present cloud that is caster supremacy.

Actually, a straight overcharger build can pretty OP.
Sure, an optimized well-played wizard can completely shut down such a build.
Sure, in tactical combats with multiple beasties, flying creatures, obstacles, complex battlefield and/or rough terrains, such a build will find its limits.
Sure, he gets less options than a TOB character.

But in the realm of healbots clerics and sword-and-board fighters, where wizards are op because fireballs deal so much damages, dealing arbitrary amount of damage is still considered pretty OP.
And for good reasons.
Because even with only fighter levels and a handful of feats, such a build one shot any CR inappropriate encounter with a single big creature when it is able to charge.
Which is to say in every single boss fight of your average inexperienced group.


So yes, even your average power-attacking TWH fighter without Pounce, Shock Trooper or Leap Attack can get scary in a group that bans freaking fireball.

[The Glyphstone]

What Loxagn said. You know, this is rather specific to the 3.X/Pathfinder crowd, but I see a consistent demand for low-magic gritty games where PCs are not expected to have magic weapons and the like. It's weird because the D20 ruleset is horrible for this.

Also, Talakeal, why are you still playing with this group? What enjoyment are you gaining out of it? Everything you told is is only bad stuff. Even if they're your friends, why not play something else, like an MMO or multi-player game on Steam?

This is, from what I do remember, an entirely new and different gaming group than the one he used to tell even worse horror stories about. That's why I suspect he is secretly a native of the Bizarro Gaming Dimension.

[Sith_Happens]

I actually thought about it, although now he has decided to simply ban all arcane casters as PCs*. I don't think it is for any balance reason, but to keep us in a low magic game.

Once again, I find myself forced to at least give him points for consistency.:smallsigh:


Honestly Talakeal, this is a strictly Out-of-Character problem, and there's really not a way of dealing with it in-character.

Now now, there's no reason we can't find a nice long stick for Talakeal to poke down the rabbit hole and see how deep it goes. For science.:smallwink:

Personally I think Operation Become One of the People What Gets the Shinies is the best bet along those lines. Normally this is the part where I'd start thinking up all manner of schemes that, coupled with sufficiently high Diplomacy and Bluff scores, might work to get you into such a position, but I'm sure this DM already has fifty informal houserules in place that render those skills functionally useless, and in any case there's a far easier and more foolproof way of achieving the same result anyways:

Make a cleric.

If this setting's churches have the sort of stranglehold on legal and even moral authority that they've so far been very much shown to have, then it goes without saying that you can't be a (non-fallen) cleric without belonging to one. Make it clear that it is in fact your intention to play a character that's part of "the system" so that you can better observe the fascinating role of religion in the world that he obviously put so much thought into, and that you think you might even be able to get the other players in on it. From the sound of things this request will most likely be seen as a refreshing change of pace from your insistence on constantly straddling outlawdom and be happily accepted.

From here you play the part of the good Cleric of [(Who/What)ever] for a while, performing (and not questioning) whatever ideologically inconsistent tasks are required of you to curry favor and increase your standing. Once you think you're in good enough, ask for a Phylactery of Faithfulness. It's a magic item, sure, but one whose entire function is to help you stay on the straight and narrow. Surely you can be trusted with something like that, it's not like you asked for one of the +3 swords that some of your brothers are walking around with.

Eventually, you get put on magic-item-user hunting duty, whether naturally or because you asked for such (making it clear it's because you want to give those lousy heretics what-for). You know, the magic-item-user hunting duty that sees you "lent" magic items of your own to help you with.

...My train of thought has unfortunately stopped there, but what you're eventually going for is the chance to carry out some sort of massacre and/or major assassination while looking like the Christmas tree to end all Christmas trees.


Mainly, I just feel bad for the noobs in this group. They've never known any other way, like the children chained inside a cave, never knowing sunlight or freedom.

Seconding this. Please, for the love of all that is good, pull these people aside some time when the DM isn't around and explain to them in the most neutral terms possible that most D&D games are, in fact, very much not like this one.

[Zalphon]

Takaleal seems to be experiencing D&D Plato's Cave. He is the only one aware of true power, but they think he's crazy...

[BootStrapTommy]

Now now, there's no reason we can't find a nice long stick for Talakeal to poke down the rabbit hole and see how deep it goes. For science.:smallwink: "And here we have one of the most dangerous animals in the world. The dreaded bad DM. Imma poke it with a stick!

Crickey! He's angry!"

Please, Talakeal? Will you be our guinea pig? :smallwink: