Coidzor
2015-01-12, 07:06 PM
Alright, I think my question got a bit garbled by my earlier rambling, sorry about that.
So I've been thinking about changing up the Reach Weapon rules after having encountered several different versions of them both in 3.5 itself, in Pathfinder, and when I was first experimenting with 4e during a time where I couldn't find anyone to play 3.5 or PF with.
Most recently I have considered having 3 standard forms of reach weapons instead of the single current type and the notable exceptions to it such as Whips and Spiked Chains and the various feats that modify the paradigm.
1. Standard Reach weapons with the change that they take a penalty(currently thinking -3) to attack within the user's natural reach.
2. "Lunging" weapons where the user takes a penalty when using it as a Reach weapon but no penalty when attacking within their natural reach. (Some weapons that are standard style reach weapons would become "Lunging" instead)
3. Weapons with reach that threaten within the natural reach but don't threaten outside of it, making attacking with a readied action or as part of one's turn the only ways to normally be able to make use of the expanded reach option. Right now mostly thinking this would apply to Spears and Halberds(piercing only) and possibly tweak Whips and Whip-Daggers so that they are like this as well.
This would possibly also necessitate some additional moves such as banning Spiked Chain/Kusari-Gama type weapons, requiring an additional feat beyond EWP: Spiked Chain to unlock full use of Spiked Chains, or having a feat to eliminate the penalties of using Reach or Lunging weapons so that they have parity with the single EWP: Spiked Chain feat.
I feel there's probably something really obvious as well as something not so obvious that would happen as a result of this change that I'm missing here.
This would, I think, make Reach weapons more appealing where they already are quite appealing. Possibility it might make them ubiquitous to the point where reach weapon lockdown builds cease to function as well as they currently do.
tl;dr What if all Reach weapons were like Spiked Chains with a moderate penalty to-hit?
So, I've been exposed to a couple of different rules for Reach weapons over the years and I was wondering what sort of effect it might have to actually have these different rules in play in the same game but for different weapons.
1. Standard 3.5 Reach: Doubles natural reach but can't attack inside of natural reach, and threatens everywhere they can attack.
2. 3.5 Spiked Chain Reach: Doubles natural reach and can attack inside of natural reach, and threatens everywhere they can attack.
3. 3.5 Duom Reach: Doubles natural reach, but take a penalty for attacking inside of natural reach, and threatens everywhere they can attack. (or was it take a penalty if attacking both inside natural reach and outside natural reach in the same round, counting both one's turn and subsequent AoOs together?)
4. 4e Reach: Doubles natural reach (or just adds 1 square/5'), but only threatens within natural reach.
5. 3.5 Whip Reach: Triples(?)/Adds 10' to natural reach but cannot threaten. Provokes AoOs like a ranged attack.
6. Pathfinder Lunge Feat Reach: Take a penalty any round in which you use your Reach, but when activated doubles natural reach and can attack within natural reach as well, but doesn't threaten outside of natural reach.
Spiked Chain style Reach would still be the hardest to come by and might be the only one that requires an Exotic weapon proficiency to acquire, and I'm thinking of doing a mix of introducing lower damage die variants of existing weapons that have one of the styles of reach not standard to 3.5 and giving non-standard Reach variants to certain weapons.
For instance, I'm thinking of giving 4E style reach where they can attack or ready an action to attack outside of their natural reach but can't threaten those squares to Spears, Halberds, and maybe Tridents(provided Tridents are wielded in two hands) and then something like Lunge-style reach to Rapiers or their Elven X-Blade equivalents where they take a penalty to hit and possibly to damage when they extend their reach.
Not sure if what I think of as Duom style reach where they're like spiked chains but take a penalty when attacking inside the user's natural reach would be an alternative or adjustment to Short Haft or if I'd just apply that to most of the standard polearms, possibly with a minor penalty to hit and a reduction in damage die such as 1d8 > 1d6.
It makes Reach more accessible, which may have some more effect on the game beyond making reach lockdown builds less effective, especially since a 4e style Reach weapon is anathema to a 3.5 style Reach weapon, being able to attack the 3.5 Reach user without provoking an AoO for trying to move past their threatened squares and still being able to attack with the 4e Reach user's primary weapon if they entered an adjacent square through cornering the 3.5 Reach user and 5-foot stepping or tumbling.
I also know it'd make Small and Medium sized melee have more options for weapons for dealing with Large(Tall) or Huge(Long) sized foes without eating an AoO.
Anything else that I'm glaringly overlooking? Such as rather than making Reach lockdown builds less effective this would completely destroy them (unless only a tiny number of weapons were modified/added)?
Also, as a semi-separate idea floating around, would letting standard 3.5 Reach weapons attack within the user's natural reach at a -2 to -4 penalty do more to buff Reach in general or just to reduce the appeal of gaining proficiency with spiked chains or one of their variants?
So I've been thinking about changing up the Reach Weapon rules after having encountered several different versions of them both in 3.5 itself, in Pathfinder, and when I was first experimenting with 4e during a time where I couldn't find anyone to play 3.5 or PF with.
Most recently I have considered having 3 standard forms of reach weapons instead of the single current type and the notable exceptions to it such as Whips and Spiked Chains and the various feats that modify the paradigm.
1. Standard Reach weapons with the change that they take a penalty(currently thinking -3) to attack within the user's natural reach.
2. "Lunging" weapons where the user takes a penalty when using it as a Reach weapon but no penalty when attacking within their natural reach. (Some weapons that are standard style reach weapons would become "Lunging" instead)
3. Weapons with reach that threaten within the natural reach but don't threaten outside of it, making attacking with a readied action or as part of one's turn the only ways to normally be able to make use of the expanded reach option. Right now mostly thinking this would apply to Spears and Halberds(piercing only) and possibly tweak Whips and Whip-Daggers so that they are like this as well.
This would possibly also necessitate some additional moves such as banning Spiked Chain/Kusari-Gama type weapons, requiring an additional feat beyond EWP: Spiked Chain to unlock full use of Spiked Chains, or having a feat to eliminate the penalties of using Reach or Lunging weapons so that they have parity with the single EWP: Spiked Chain feat.
I feel there's probably something really obvious as well as something not so obvious that would happen as a result of this change that I'm missing here.
This would, I think, make Reach weapons more appealing where they already are quite appealing. Possibility it might make them ubiquitous to the point where reach weapon lockdown builds cease to function as well as they currently do.
tl;dr What if all Reach weapons were like Spiked Chains with a moderate penalty to-hit?
So, I've been exposed to a couple of different rules for Reach weapons over the years and I was wondering what sort of effect it might have to actually have these different rules in play in the same game but for different weapons.
1. Standard 3.5 Reach: Doubles natural reach but can't attack inside of natural reach, and threatens everywhere they can attack.
2. 3.5 Spiked Chain Reach: Doubles natural reach and can attack inside of natural reach, and threatens everywhere they can attack.
3. 3.5 Duom Reach: Doubles natural reach, but take a penalty for attacking inside of natural reach, and threatens everywhere they can attack. (or was it take a penalty if attacking both inside natural reach and outside natural reach in the same round, counting both one's turn and subsequent AoOs together?)
4. 4e Reach: Doubles natural reach (or just adds 1 square/5'), but only threatens within natural reach.
5. 3.5 Whip Reach: Triples(?)/Adds 10' to natural reach but cannot threaten. Provokes AoOs like a ranged attack.
6. Pathfinder Lunge Feat Reach: Take a penalty any round in which you use your Reach, but when activated doubles natural reach and can attack within natural reach as well, but doesn't threaten outside of natural reach.
Spiked Chain style Reach would still be the hardest to come by and might be the only one that requires an Exotic weapon proficiency to acquire, and I'm thinking of doing a mix of introducing lower damage die variants of existing weapons that have one of the styles of reach not standard to 3.5 and giving non-standard Reach variants to certain weapons.
For instance, I'm thinking of giving 4E style reach where they can attack or ready an action to attack outside of their natural reach but can't threaten those squares to Spears, Halberds, and maybe Tridents(provided Tridents are wielded in two hands) and then something like Lunge-style reach to Rapiers or their Elven X-Blade equivalents where they take a penalty to hit and possibly to damage when they extend their reach.
Not sure if what I think of as Duom style reach where they're like spiked chains but take a penalty when attacking inside the user's natural reach would be an alternative or adjustment to Short Haft or if I'd just apply that to most of the standard polearms, possibly with a minor penalty to hit and a reduction in damage die such as 1d8 > 1d6.
It makes Reach more accessible, which may have some more effect on the game beyond making reach lockdown builds less effective, especially since a 4e style Reach weapon is anathema to a 3.5 style Reach weapon, being able to attack the 3.5 Reach user without provoking an AoO for trying to move past their threatened squares and still being able to attack with the 4e Reach user's primary weapon if they entered an adjacent square through cornering the 3.5 Reach user and 5-foot stepping or tumbling.
I also know it'd make Small and Medium sized melee have more options for weapons for dealing with Large(Tall) or Huge(Long) sized foes without eating an AoO.
Anything else that I'm glaringly overlooking? Such as rather than making Reach lockdown builds less effective this would completely destroy them (unless only a tiny number of weapons were modified/added)?
Also, as a semi-separate idea floating around, would letting standard 3.5 Reach weapons attack within the user's natural reach at a -2 to -4 penalty do more to buff Reach in general or just to reduce the appeal of gaining proficiency with spiked chains or one of their variants?