OOTS #972 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Tvtyrant]

Of course it is an undead or golem, it is using slam attacks.

Also it has a high trip attempt and DR.


Could be the super zombies from Incarnum. They don't lose their minds, and attack with slam attacks.

:C I liked my theory!

[Porthos]

Well, so much for Team Revenant. :smalltongue:

[denthor]

Flesh golem for the win

Oh and leave it to Rich to take all the fun out a chick fight

Haley had better tatse in girls than that?!!!!

[zql]

Well, thats a good DR.

[deuxhero]

Well if it's a construct the good news for the order is that they aren't dependent on Thundershield's (not particularlly high) Knowledge: Religion to know what it is.

[r2d2go]

Well, thats a good DR.

That or very high armor class?

[CoffeeIncluded]

See Haley, this is why you go melee and pick up Penetrating Strike. :smalltongue:

So she's become some kind of flesh golem that retains its intelligence score. Is it homebrew or from a rulebook? But why was she turned into this and not raised?

[Tvtyrant]

That or very high armor class?

I'm banking on DR, because she isn't wearing armor nor dodging. I suppose it might be high NA, but that seems less likely.

[ti'esar]

Well, so much for Team Revenant. :smalltongue:

Ayup.

For some reason the way those gnomes in the first panel are just standing around is really funny.

[Angelalex242]

Probably DR 10/Adamant or even 15/Adamant. DR/Adamant is typical for golems. If it were a clay golem, it's be adamant and bludgeoning, but it's a flesh golem, so that's not happening. \

Though typical for flesh golems is 5/Adamant.

I admit to being curious as to who did qualify for her taste.

[Krakes]

So what will be the secret weakness of Crystal golem?


http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/18.jpg (http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm)

[Gnoman]

Haley's line about having had "better taste in girls than that" is interesting. The two times that that's been referenced before (unless I'm missing or forgetting something), her interests in that direction were described as secret (per her comments to Elan while aphasic, and the appearance in her head of "Haley's latent bisexuality.") The question I have is "Is this a result of her character development toward being more honest, even with herself", or a simple matter of "She was talking about her ex-girlfriends, so I was talking about mine." Either implies a pretty interesting character development given Haley's trust issues, secretiveness, and general paranoia from earlier in the comic.

[chy03001]

But why was she turned into this and not raised?

I smell the workings of Grubwiggler... must still be mad at Haley for raiding his home.

[PirateMonk]

But why was she turned into this and not raised?

Because a monster with DR and immunity to Sneak Attack is way more effective against a rogue than a human is.

[Starwulf]

Wonder how long before Roy walks into the panel and swipes her head off with his sword. For some reason, I just don't see this being a major threat/fight scene. Either Haley will finish it in the next 2-3 comics, or as I said, Roy comes in and one-shots it.

[DaOldeWolf]

So, I suppose its kind has been revealed. And she looks scary strong to boot. I hope Haley makes it through.

[Bulldog Psion]

For some reason the way those gnomes in the first panel are just standing around is really funny.

Yes, it is hilarious. :smallbiggrin: Especially the one off on the left there, though she's fleeing in terror in the next panel.


Haley's line about having had "better taste in girls than that" is interesting.

Yes -- it makes one wonder if Haley's latent bisexuality has only become latent since she met our favorite Charisma 18 bard.

[Angelalex242]

Haley will be fine. The oracle foresaw a happy ending for Elan. There's no way Elan gets a happy ending without Haley at his side. So she's got plot armor.

But yes, a golem with DR and immunity to sneak attack is very effective against a rogue. Even Roy's sword, which is starmetal, not adamant, should suffer the DR.

Her wands would help. Fire or cold damage will slow the golem. But don't use electricity...

[AbyssStalker]

I love the incorrect genre saviness that Bandana displayed, a good guess, but that's to be expected from someone who served under Julio.

[littlebum2002]

A flesh golem! I'll admit, I criticized those that guessed it, but they were right. She's not a Revenant after all!




I admit to being curious as to who did qualify for her taste.

Aren't we all? Lol

[crayzz]

I always imagined flesh golems as if they didn't have any bones, just immense strength in place of them.

[dmc91356]

I like the way we see it develop. Holy Water - nope!

[ss49]

I dunno, that's a lot of DR to overcome for any of the party.

[Ninja Dragon]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/001/593/peopledie.jpg

I missed you Crystal. :smallbiggrin:

[Anarion]

Yikes, Elan and Haley are probably the two worst party members for combating some kind of spirit-infused animated flesh golem thing. Where's V with the fireballs and Roy with the extremely large enchanted sword?

[Ridin'TheCrash]

Thanks giant for finnaly clearing up the undead debate!

[Shadowknight12]

It's so nice to see Bandana and Haley bonding over past girlfriends. It's also good that you can show two romantically compatible women discussing their past love lives without it implying any sort of romantic attraction or things getting awkward. It's written really naturally, good job Giant.

[Liliet]

1. So that settles THAT debate.
2. GO BISEXUAL HALEY
I like the "I had much better taste in girls" Haley much better than "I... kissed a girl once... SHHH IT'S A SECRET" Haley.
3. Still enjoying Crystal's dialogue. "I will kill you until you are SO dead" wins over Elan's puns anytime.
4. YEEEE GIRL FIGHT

[Reddish Mage]

I think if the flesh golem is deflecting Haley's best arrows without any effect it has to be home-brewed. Though there are a variety of construct options out there and the DR doesn't have to be at "no arrow ever gets through"


Haley's line about having had "better taste in girls than that" is interesting. The two times that that's been referenced before (unless I'm missing or forgetting something), her interests in that direction were described as secret (per her comments to Elan while aphasic, and the appearance in her head of "Haley's latent bisexuality.") The question I have is "Is this a result of her character development toward being more honest, even with herself", or a simple matter of "She was talking about her ex-girlfriends, so I was talking about mine." Either implies a pretty interesting character development given Haley's trust issues, secretiveness, and general paranoia from earlier in the comic.

You know the term "girlfriend" used by girls doesn't necessarily sex partners. Haley means "I have better taste in friends than that."


I smell the workings of Grubwiggler... must still be mad at Haley for raiding his home.

They kill Grubwiggler in the comics after Haley rejoins the guild. He's likely also angry about that, if he's involved and not still dead that is.

I think the important person is Bozzok. For this guy to come all the way out there to go after Haley, he must be really steaming pissed!

[YossarianLives]

{scrubbed}

Also does this imply that "Dark Mistress Shadow Gale" was a homosexual at some point? Interesting.

[stsasser]

Yikes, Elan and Haley are probably the two worst party members for combating some kind of spirit-infused animated flesh golem thing. Where's V with the fireballs and Roy with the extremely large enchanted sword?

Roy is the leader that split the party to do some shopping and temple sight-seeing. :smallannoyed:

[Liliet]

oh and WAIT GHOST AIRSHIPS?????

SO
FREAKING
COOL


Yes, it is hilarious. :smallbiggrin: Especially the one off on the left there, though she's fleeing in terror in the next panel.

Yes -- it makes one wonder if Haley's latent bisexuality has only become latent since she met our favorite Charisma 18 bard.

That's not how bisexuality works. It doesn't become latent when you find a partner / develop a crush anymore than heterosexuality does :\

My guess is, Haley doesn't actually have any past girlfriends, as in, "actually officially dating" and not "kissed once in the bathroom, secretly". She just started acknowledging her bisexuality recently, like maybe after the no-speech stunt - that kind of had her work on being more honest with herself. So she's talking to Bandana as if she's been comfortable with her own sexuality back then - because it doesn't matter she wasn't. She wasn't attracted to Crystal either way.


It's so nice to see Bandana and Haley bonding over past girlfriends. It's also good that you can show two romantically compatible women discussing their past love lives without it implying any sort of romantic attraction or things getting awkward. It's written really naturally, good job Giant.
^^^yes

[Ron Miel]

I smell the workings of Grubwiggler... must still be mad at Haley for raiding his home.




I understand Grubwiggler was killed by Crystal in a bonus strip

[Liliet]

I understand Grubwiggler was killed by Crystal in a bonus strip
And Crystal was killed by Haley in a story strip. And Roy had been killed by a lack of Feather Fall back in Asure city. Weird how that works, isn't it?

[Shadowknight12]

My guess is, Haley doesn't actually have any past girlfriends, as in, "actually officially dating" and not "kissed once in the bathroom, secretly".

My personal headcanon is that she had a fling with a fellow rogue from the guild when she was younger, but things got complicated, feelings got hurt and her father used that as a way to drill his paranoia and distrust into her brain.

[Vinsfeld]

Hats off to those who said Crystal was a golem

EDIT: So, is it some kind of homebrew flesh golem?

[hagnat]

Yes I got in on the first page!

Also does this imply that "Dark Mistress Shadow Gale" was a homosexual at some point? Interesting.

i think she said that herself when she was battling her several selves before recovering her voice

[Tvtyrant]

The oracle foresaw a happy ending for Elan. There's no way Elan gets a happy ending without Haley at his side. So she's got plot armor.

But I thought that already happened when they got stuck in the weird happiness trap? I thought the Oracles prophecy was about the pyramid dream where you get the thing you want most, but what he wanted wasn't good for the people he wanted it for and thus the "For you" line.

[Falbrogna]

......Wait, how is that a succesfull sneak attack if not only the attacker got saw from afar, but also missed the intended target (Haley) and just happened to hit Elan?

And don't assassins need to focus on their target before launching that, meaning that it shouldn't have worked on Elan? :smallconfused:

[FlawedParadigm]

Should be interesting to see how tough Bandana actually is.

[littlebum2002]

I dunno, that's a lot of DR to overcome for any of the party.

Not V. Spells bypass DR




You know the term "girlfriend" used by girls doesn't necessarily sex partners. Haley means "I have better taste in friends than that."


Your point is moot because she did not use the term "girlfriend".

If someone says "I have good taste in girls (or boys)" they don't mean friends.

[ti'esar]

My personal headcanon is that she had a fling with a fellow rogue from the guild when she was younger, but things got complicated, feelings got hurt and her father used that as a way to drill his paranoia and distrust into her brain.

Hmm, we never did find out who Rachel and Kyran (second page, third panel) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html) were, did we?

[Khatoblepas]

You know the term "girlfriend" used by girls doesn't necessarily sex partners. Haley means "I have better taste in friends than that."

Aww, c'mon, bisexuals get erased enough. If Haley's a bisexual, all the more power to her. Especially if it comes up in such casual circumstances like these.

[Shadowknight12]

......Wait, how is that a succesfull sneak attack if not only the attacker got saw from afar, but also missed the intended target (Haley) and just happened to hit Elan?

And don't assassins need to focus on their target before launching that, meaning that it shouldn't have worked on Elan? :smallconfused:

It wasn't an assassin's death attack, otherwise Elan would be dead instead of knocked out cold.

These are the two most likely possibilities:

1) Crystal intended to attack Elan all along, and Bandana's reaction was unnecessary. Elan was flat-footed, so he was a valid target for Sneak Attack. This makes sense given that Sneak Attack is rather awful against single-classed rogues (due to Uncanny Dodge).

2) Crystal has some sort of homebrewed feat that allows her to reroll an attack she missed on another flat-footed target within range. She misses Haley due to Bandana's Aid Another action increasing Haley's AC, so she rerolls her attack against Elan and hits.

There's likely a dramatic houserule in effect that states that whenever you take too much damage from a single hit, you roll Fortitude or go unconscious for a few rounds (perhaps a modified Massive Damage rule). Otherwise the only way Elan would be unconscious is if Crystal used non-lethal damage on him (and why would she?) or if he's actually below 0 HP and dying.

EDIT:


Hmm, we never did find out who Rachel and Kyran (second page, third panel) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html) were, did we?

Nice catch! Those two can easily be ex-lovers, or an ex-girlfriend and an ex-friend who took ex-girlfriend's side.

[holywhippet]

Well if it's a construct the good news for the order is that they aren't dependent on Thundershield's (not particularlly high) Knowledge: Religion to know what it is.

That raises an interesting point for the future. Since a different soul is currently in the pilot's seat of Durkon's body and it has been acquiring knowledge of Durkon's past from reading his thoughts, could it be tripped up and revealed as a fake by demonstrating knowledge that Durkon has shown he doesn't have.

[oppyu]

Hey, Haley's latent bisexuality apparently wasn't quite so latent.

Oh God, there are going to be pages and pages of people deeply offended by the gayness.

[Psyren]

I think Haley has more pressing concerns than her sex life right now, hmm? So lets get back to the comic.

Crystal appears to be a very special kind of golem:

- Clearly intelligent (well, as intelligent as anything made out of Crystal is likely to be) since she can speak and has memory of her life.
- Has class levels (note the capitals on Bandana's use of "Sneak Attack" - i.e. it still has Crystal's rogue and/or assassin levels. Plus the fact that she one-shot Elan in the surprise round.)
- My money is on DR rather than NA, because her arrows are behaving here just like they did vs. "Kitty."

Any (new) thoughts on what she might be?

[Seerus]

Bozzok is lawful evil.

Haley told Crystal that if Bozzok raised her then the deal was off and she was out of the guild. Bozzok had someone use speak with dead, found out what happened, and used the legal loophole of "I didn't raise her, I had her made into a golem."

Grubwiggler was involved because Haley never said anything about not raising Grubwiggler, or, to be even more devious, he will say that in speak with dead Grubwiggler agreed to be a member of the thieve's guild, meaning Haley's money went toward raising him.

[oppyu]

No, Haley said she was out of the guild and not paying any money regardless of what Bozzok did.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Haley told Crystal that if Bozzok raised her then the deal was off and she was out of the guild.

Pretty sure the deal was off either way, and she meant "if he has you raised, tell him so".

[SteveMB]

My guess is, Haley doesn't actually have any past girlfriends, as in, "actually officially dating" and not "kissed once in the bathroom, secretly". She just started acknowledging her bisexuality recently, like maybe after the no-speech stunt - that kind of had her work on being more honest with herself. So she's talking to Bandana as if she's been comfortable with her own sexuality back then - because it doesn't matter she wasn't. She wasn't attracted to Crystal either way.

Presumably she knew what kind of girls she found attractive and interesting, even if she didn't have the self-confidence to do anything about it.

[El Grapadura]

See Haley, this is why you go melee and pick up Penetrating Strike. :smalltongue:

So she's become some kind of flesh golem that retains its intelligence score. Is it homebrew or from a rulebook? But why was she turned into this and not raised?


Because a monster with DR and immunity to Sneak Attack is way more effective against a rogue than a human is.

I can dig it. Pretty straightforward strategy. Also, we get the narrative effect of Bozzok using a convenient abomination to further his goals. Sound familiar? :smalltongue:

[Lkctgo]

Heh "Undead-Avenger" made me think of black widow in undead form.

[Peelee]

I like the new fist look.

[The Kind Knido]

Thieves Guild is the very worst of recurring villains that I can think of. They're not funny, they're not particularly threatening, and they just slow things down. Hell, they grind things down to a halt while the Order has to deal with them.

Seriously.

[Animidest]

I'm hoping Haley will just straight-up run away and get Roy. There's a time and place for proving yourself or dealing with your own rival, but Rogues don't fare well against golems, to put it lightly. A little Power Attack action ought to take her down a notch.

[woweedd]

Whatever Crystal is, it seems very strong. Haley's probably going to have to use one of those wands as the knives seem unable to hurt it.

[137beth]

Whelp, that settles the undead crystal vs golem crystal debate:smallsmile:

[gerryq]

Well, Panel 3 is the first of all panels for which I think the new hands are better :smalltongue:

[GAAD]

you updated.
I will read you comic.
I will read you until you are SO READ

[Tom Lehmann]

I also much prefer the new fists (in panels 2 and 9) to the old fists. Go art style evolution!

[Escapist]

Woohoo a new comic for the day I go back to school!

Also I wonder what Crystal's abilities are. And if anyone else from the guild will be showing up. Maybe the Cleric?

[JT]

I think Haley has more pressing concerns than her sex life right now, hmm? So lets get back to the comic.

Crystal appears to be a very special kind of golem:

- Clearly intelligent (well, as intelligent as anything made out of Crystal is likely to be) since she can speak and has memory of her life.
- Has class levels (note the capitals on Bandana's use of "Sneak Attack" - i.e. it still has Crystal's rogue and/or assassin levels. Plus the fact that she one-shot Elan in the surprise round.)
- My money is on DR rather than NA, because her arrows are behaving here just like they did vs. "Kitty."

Any (new) thoughts on what she might be?

Obviously, she is a Crystal Golem.

[Keltest]

I must admit, the new arms are growing on me. Roy's arms though will forever look weird to me so long as theyre the same color as his armor.

[CaDzilla]

YAY! Hayley confirmed bisexual!:D

[redzimmer]

It's so nice to see Bandana and Haley bonding over past girlfriends. It's also good that you can show two romantically compatible women discussing their past love lives without it implying any sort of romantic attraction or things getting awkward. It's written really naturally, good job Giant.

I envision the 'phobe who cancelled his order seething with each mention and I smile a little bit.

:tongue:

[redzimmer]

Obviously, she is a Crystal Golem.

I... I am in awe.

[slow clap]

[Faldrath]

Thieves Guild is the very worst of recurring villains that I can think of. They're not funny, they're not particularly threatening, and they just slow things down. Hell, they grind things down to a halt while the Order has to deal with them.

Seriously.

Yeah, I'm waiting for something more interesting about their return as well. It can't be simply "Bozzok and Crystal want to kill Haley again". It's a long way to travel just for that, and how did they find the Order's location anyway? There's got to be something else.

[Keltest]

Thieves Guild is the very worst of recurring villains that I can think of. They're not funny, they're not particularly threatening, and they just slow things down. Hell, they grind things down to a halt while the Order has to deal with them.

Seriously.

At the moment they seem quite dangerous. Haley and Bandana are rogues, they aren't built for this sort of combat. Elan is out of the picture, and the rest of the party are across town. Sure, Roy could probably beat Crystal 6 ways to Sunday, assuming he doesn't just pick her up and throw her in the volcano, but I assume that's why the Giant wrote him so as to be not present for this particular fight.

[Jay R]

Haley had better tatse in girls than that?!!!!

Of course.
A. She kissed a girl once.
B. OK, OK, more than once.
C. She may not be exactly what you would call ...


So, is it some kind of homebrew flesh golem?

"Homebrew"? Technically, she was probably brewed in Grubwiggler's shop.

[Svata]

Obviously, she is a Crystal Golem.

Aww, you beat me to it.

[Jay R]

Aww, you beat me to it.

Don't blame him. I said this last year (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18590539&postcount=258).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Awww man! I was hoping that Bandana was right. Oh well, I'm sure that there's a good explanation. Also, interesting that Haley mentions her tastes in girls.

Hmm, we never did find out who Rachel and Kyran (second page, third panel) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html) were, did we?
Very well spotted!

[Basement Cat]

Haley's oft mentioned "latent bisexuality" could be simply interpreted thus: She has found other girls interesting in the past but never acted on it. Given her trust issues--especially how bad they were before meeting Elan--it's fairly easy to see Haley shying away from any guy or girl she felt herself becoming emotionally close to--hence the "latent" aspect of it.

As Episode 311 relayed there was a Rachel in her past. Though for all we know Rachel could have been a non-potential romantic character--The Giant toying with us, perhaps.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html

[Keltest]

Is it just me, or does Bandana's dagger sheath disappear in the fourth panel?

[Shining Wrath]

Well, gratz to all those who were in the golem camp - although to be fair, even Bandanna was in the Revenant camp until that unfortunate incident with the holy water.

[Kevium]

But I thought that already happened when they got stuck in the weird happiness trap? I thought the Oracles prophecy was about the pyramid dream where you get the thing you want most, but what he wanted wasn't good for the people he wanted it for and thus the "For you" line.

One of the book commentaries (War And XPs, I think, but I don't have it on hand right now to check) says Elan's prophecy is to reassure the audience that the story as a whole won't end with the world ending/Xykon winning (or something to that effect). That wouldn't really work if the in-story events were imaginary and took place two gates before the end.

[UristMcRandom]

Is it just me, or does Bandana's dagger sheath disappear in the fourth panel?

It does, though the strap is still there.

[Lombard]

Yes I got in on the first page!

Also does this imply that "Dark Mistress Shadow Gale" was a homosexual at some point? Interesting.

Lol I wonder if you missed the first page because you stopped to type that you were on the first page... :roach: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBlhrTpi69E)

[zql]

I guess this may have been pointed out a lot, but Elan and Haley should really avoid going shopping at the beginning of a new book from now on.

[Psyren]

Obviously, she is a Crystal Golem.

*pun crits Psyren for 9999 damage*
*Psyren dies and his soul is trapped*


Thieves Guild is the very worst of recurring villains that I can think of. They're not funny, they're not particularly threatening, and they just slow things down. Hell, they grind things down to a halt while the Order has to deal with them.

Seriously.

While I tend to agree, they had the advantage of making me actually root for Belkar while he tore a nice swath through their rogueish ranks.

They also made Celia look even more airheaded (not that she needed the help), so there's that too :smalltongue:

[Darth Paul]

Obviously, she is a Crystal Golem.

You win the thread on Page 3. Well played.

And I groan my approval. :smallyuk:

[JonahFalcon]

Did Crystal just essentially say, "I'LL KILL YOU!!! I'LL KILL YOU TO DEATH!!!!" ? :smallbiggrin:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102692/3778655-tumblr_kvcex7xcuz1qziacgo1_500.jpg

[Particle_Man]

......Wait, how is that a succesfull sneak attack if not only the attacker got saw from afar, but also missed the intended target (Haley) and just happened to hit Elan?

And don't assassins need to focus on their target before launching that, meaning that it shouldn't have worked on Elan? :smallconfused:

Sneak attacks (unlike death attacks) don't have to hit the intended target. They just have to hit anyone that has lost their dex bonus to ac (such as, like Elan, a target that hasn't had a chance to act yet), or a target that is flanked. And even a failed (or mistargeted) death attack is still a sneak attack, if it meets the requirements of sneak attack. Mind you, this could be one of the weird things about d20 rules that the Giant makes fun of.


I admit to being curious as to who did qualify for her taste.

I'm gonna go all Freudian and assume that Haley would be attracted to women resembling Haley's mother, who died while Haley was still young.

[eusticepious]

New comic is up.

So is Bandana in a feat of parallelism also an old character re-inserted into the story? I vote for Bandana and Miko being kindred spirits of a sort and Bandana being an un-atoned cleric explaining the never uses wands wrinkle.

[Siosilvar]

Haley's Latent Bisexuality making a comeback in panel 2, I see. :smalltongue: It's been at least five hundred strips since the last time that side came up, isn't it?

[Ramien]

Well, Haley, time to use those wands a bit sooner than you expected. You don't need Roy, or V, or anyone else.

[dps]

I must admit, the new arms are growing on me.

Maybe you should seek medical attention for that. :smallbiggrin:

[Kilo24]

See Haley, this is why you go melee and pick up Penetrating Strike. :smalltongue:

So she's become some kind of flesh golem that retains its intelligence score. Is it homebrew or from a rulebook? But why was she turned into this and not raised?

"If Bozzok raises you, tell him the deal is off. I'm not paying him one copper piece ever again. NOT ONE." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html)

I don't think reanimating her as a golem counts as raising her. I recalled the quote being a bit more significant than it actually was, since it was addressed to someone who was about to die (and it would have been a moot point had Bozzok learned about it after raising her). But it may still be pertinent.

There's also a lot of trouble in finding clerics to raise/resurrect people, as Roy's death showed.

[oppyu]

"If Bozzok raises you, tell him the deal is off. I'm not paying him one copper piece ever again. NOT ONE." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html)

I don't think reanimating her as a golem counts as raising her. I recalled the quote being a bit more significant than it actually was, since it was addressed to someone who was about to die (and it would have been a moot point had Bozzok learned about it after raising her). But it may still be pertinent.

There's also a lot of trouble in finding clerics to raise/resurrect people, as Roy's death showed.
I think you're misinterpreting that. The deal was not conditional on Crystal remaining dead, Haley was saying the deal was off whether or not Crystal was raised.

[KillingAScarab]

oh and WAIT GHOST AIRSHIPS?????

SO
FREAKING
COOLI will admit to being a little disappointed by this being a golem they're fighting, but the revelation of ghost airships more than makes up for that. Rich may have beaten out Neil Gaiman (http://stardust.wikia.com/wiki/Sky_vessel) for best fantasy use of airships, in my view.

[runeghost]

Haley's oft mentioned "latent bisexuality" could be simply interpreted thus: She has found other girls interesting in the past but never acted on it. Given her trust issues--especially how bad they were before meeting Elan--it's fairly easy to see Haley shying away from any guy or girl she felt herself becoming emotionally close to--hence the "latent" aspect of it.

That's how I read it as well, given the info provided in the current strip. "I had much better taste in girls than her", when combined with "Haley's latent bisexuality" says pretty strongly to me that Haley has found other females attractive, but never done much to follow up on that attraction.

As an alternative, a technical reading of "latent" could also mean that Haley was bisexually active in the past, but has for whatever reason not experienced any such feelings for some time.

[Peelee]

I will admit to being a little disappointed by this being a golem they're fighting, but the revelation of ghost airships more than makes up for that. Rich may have beaten out Neil Gaiman (http://stardust.wikia.com/wiki/Sky_vessel) for best fantasy use of airships, in my view.

I just got my wife to watch that movie with me last night. Still as awesome as when I first screened it with my friend.

[Particle_Man]

There's also a lot of trouble in finding clerics to raise/resurrect people, as Roy's death showed.

But to get this Golem wouldn't Bozzok have to raise Grubwiggler, thus requiring the means of raising someone *and then* the means of making a golem?

[Crusher]

I'm thinking Cadaver Golem now. She doesn't really look she's made out of a bunch of different people, but maybe they found a way around that. Otherwise not a bad fit. A 21 STR would seem pretty high to Elan and Haley, base INT of 12 (so it could well be smarter than Crystal yet still below average for one of its kind), keeps some skills, and while I'd have expected a little more DR than 5/Adamantine to make all 4 of Haley's arrows go *pa-ting* (really, 10/Adamantine would have been fine and even 8/Adamantine could have been at least arguable), its about as good a fit as I can find.

[Daywalker1983]

Yeah, I'm waiting for something more interesting about their return as well. It can't be simply "Bozzok and Crystal want to kill Haley again". It's a long way to travel just for that, and how did they find the Order's location anyway? There's got to be something else.

Maybe myron sicced Bozzok on the Order on Tarkin's request.

[Ramien]

There's also a lot of trouble in finding clerics to raise/resurrect people, as Roy's death showed.

Not that much trouble; they already were planning on getting a lot of people raised by the temple of Loki, remember (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0621.html)? Roy was a special case because he was dead long enough that just Raise Dead wouldn't cut it any more. Not to mention golem creation is at least as difficult as bringing back the dead.

So Crystal probably could have been raised, if Bozzok had been willing. That she wasn't raised tells me one of two things: Grubwiggler put his foot down after he'd been raised and demanded Crystal's body as repayment for her killing him.
Or that he did it deliberately so she'd have a few advantages over Haley this time (Can't be sneak attacked, might even be too single-minded to fool as easily as before), with plans to raise her after Haley's dealt with. (which may or may not be feasible, depending on just how long the Order was gone in the desert)


Maybe myron sicced Bozzok on the Order on Tarkin's request.

Why? Myron has no reason to care. There's no money in it, and Tarquin doesn't have any favors left. On the other hand, Bozzok showed a lot of interest in Haley's whereabouts when Geoff mentioned her - enough to not worry about getting Ian recaptured.

[BriarHobbit]

They need Roy, and they need him quickly.

[zimmerwald1915]

1. So that settles THAT debate.
2. GO BISEXUAL HALEY
I like the "I had much better taste in girls" Haley much better than "I... kissed a girl once... SHHH IT'S A SECRET" Haley.
3. Still enjoying Crystal's dialogue. "I will kill you until you are SO dead" wins over Elan's puns anytime.
4. YEEEE GIRL FIGHT
Holy crap you're alive! Thank goodness.


Did Crystal just essentially say, "I'LL KILL YOU!!! I'LL KILL YOU TO DEATH!!!!" ? :smallbiggrin:
Yes. Yes she did. I choose to believe that her doing so was parody.

I haven't decided whether to read all her lines from now on in the Superboy Prime voice.

[Lombard]

Lol what's up with Haley's use of the past tense, is Elan packing a +5 rod of makeyoustraightgirl?

Also... I'm kind of wondering about Crystal's status. Like, ok so if she's still 'kind of' Crystal, what if anything puts her back to full Crystal? Greater Restore? Raise Dead? Resurrect? Or is she just golemed now no matter what, short of a Wish-type spell?

[Obscure Blade]

So what will be the secret weakness of Crystal golem?
A Shatter spell, naturally. :smallbiggrin:

[SinsI]

Hats off to those who said Crystal was a golem

EDIT: So, is it some kind of homebrew flesh golem?

Probably Cadaver Golem. "Misshapened constructs easily mistaken for flesh golems, but they are more intelligent and dangerous, capable of making use of the skills and abilities of those who contributed to its body."
Edit: It cannot be a cadaver golem, as it requires at least six bodies.


Lol what's up with Haley's use of the past tense, is Elan packing a +5 rod of makeyoustraightgirl?

Probably was a phase of hers. Similar to her goth style and the like...

[A.A.King]

I think people are reading too much into a joke. Personally I think the line "I had much better taste in woman" is a simply a variation on the old standby "even if I swong that way, I could do way better than you!" If Haley's latent bisexuality was more than an one-of joke and an actual hidden side of her then I don't think Haley has come far enough yet when it comes to her learning to trust ppl for her to have told Bandana.

If we have to analyse the intention of the Giant behind each panel and each sentence (which the firum obviously must) then I'd say that the line is there not to reveal more about Haley. The line isn't there to tell us that Haley has (or used to have) an interest in girls but it is there simply to tell us that Haley (and you can probably read "Haley" as "ppl from the OOTS world") doesn't find the idea of same sex relations "ewww, gross"

Though at the end of the day it's still mainly just one line which is part of a joke.

[Liliet]

You know the term "girlfriend" used by girls doesn't necessarily sex partners. Haley means "I have better taste in friends than that."
Do you mean that Bandana asked Haley "is this your old friend?" about someone currently trying to kill her?

Um.

The intent is rather clearly the joke about spited ex-lovers. And Haley answers in kind: if this were just about friendship, she wouldn't have specified the gender she has a better taste in. At best, she would have said "a better taste in girlfriends", "a better taste in girls" implies straight-up romantic/sexual interest.


My personal headcanon is that she had a fling with a fellow rogue from the guild when she was younger, but things got complicated, feelings got hurt and her father used that as a way to drill his paranoia and distrust into her brain.
I don't think she would then have treated "I kissed a girl once... more than once" as a horrible secret that might cure her speech impediment if she reveals it. Also, her bisexuality wouldn't have been "latent".


Yes I got in on the first page!

Also does this imply that "Dark Mistress Shadow Gale" was a homosexual at some point? Interesting.
No, you didn't, and I'm pretty sure notes like this are officially banned on the forum.

Also, that's called "bisexual". Look it up.


Presumably she knew what kind of girls she found attractive and interesting, even if she didn't have the self-confidence to do anything about it.
"Knowledge" works a bit funny regarding figuring out your sexuality. But yeah, she can confidently say Crystal was never a candidate, hindsight or not.


I also much prefer the new fists (in panels 2 and 9) to the old fists. Go art style evolution!
YES by the way


YAY! Hayley confirmed bisexual!:D
We kind of already knew that, from her "latent bisexuality" and "kissed a girl more than once" from the speech impediment arc.

Haley confirmed as overcoming her trust issues and coming to terms with her sexuality and identity? The Giant confirmed as capable of writing bisexual characters as more than one-off jokes? Now that's a yay!!!!


Haley's oft mentioned "latent bisexuality" could be simply interpreted thus: She has found other girls interesting in the past but never acted on it. Given her trust issues--especially how bad they were before meeting Elan--it's fairly easy to see Haley shying away from any guy or girl she felt herself becoming emotionally close to--hence the "latent" aspect of it.
Given how big a secret Haley treated "I kissed a girl" as in the speech impediment arc, internalized biphobia played quiet a role in that too )=


As Episode 311 relayed there was a Rachel in her past. Though for all we know Rachel could have been a non-potential romantic character--The Giant toying with us, perhaps.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html
That's... an interesting idea. Headcanon!


That's how I read it as well, given the info provided in the current strip. "I had much better taste in girls than her", when combined with "Haley's latent bisexuality" says pretty strongly to me that Haley has found other females attractive, but never done much to follow up on that attraction.

As an alternative, a technical reading of "latent" could also mean that Haley was bisexually active in the past, but has for whatever reason not experienced any such feelings for some time.
That's not how bisexuality works even with the most technical of readings. If she used to be sexually/romantically active with the girls in the past, stopping that activity for whatever reason didn't make her bisexuality "latent" anymore than, say, a nun taking vows becomes "latent heterosexual".


Holy crap you're alive! Thank goodness.
Yeah, I am rather fond of that fact, too :smallbiggrin:
*happily hugs the annoying V-hater*


Probably was a phase of hers. Similar to her goth style and the like...
We have had "Haley's latent bisexuality" in the comic. Pretty sure it's confirmed as a permanent thing for her.

[Liliet]

I think people are reading too much into a joke. Personally I think the line "I had much better taste in woman" is a simply a variation on the old standby "even if I swong that way, I could do way better than you!" If Haley's latent bisexuality was more than an one-of joke and an actual hidden side of her then I don't think Haley has come far enough yet when it comes to her learning to trust ppl for her to have told Bandana.

If we have to analyse the intention of the Giant behind each panel and each sentence (which the firum obviously must) then I'd say that the line is there not to reveal more about Haley. The line isn't there to tell us that Haley has (or used to have) an interest in girls but it is there simply to tell us that Haley (and you can probably read "Haley" as "ppl from the OOTS world") doesn't find the idea of same sex relations "ewww, gross"

Though at the end of the day it's still mainly just one line which is part of a joke.

Separate reply for you personally.

Haley's latent bisexuality was never brought attention to so as to serve as a punchline, it was just there in a background, hanging out and meaning stuff. And it was mentioned not once, but twice, with the "I kissed a girl once... more than once".

Haley already knows Bandana herself is in a same-sex relationship, and there is no-one else around to judge her. That's what she fears - being judged by others and being found wanting.
With Bandana, she's safe. Maybe she won't talk about her past relationships in detail, but she can casually admit same-sex attraction at least as a part of a jokish banter that has plausible deniability into "even if I swung that way".

If OotS world hadn't found same-sex relationships icky, Haley's line about "I kissed a girl once" wouldn't have made any sense. Just imagine her saying there "I kissed a boy once. Ok, more than once!!!" The point of that phrase is her internalized biphobia/homophobia leading her to regard that as a "dirty secret".

This exchange here signifies character development for her and writing development for Rich.

And no, Haley's bisexuality is not just a one-off joke. It's the third time it's mentioned, which makes it definitely canon. Deal with it.

[Baphomet]

Undead and golems aren't cheap, so the people who make them shouldn't be that hard up for cash. So why can't any of them afford to put their creations in some clothes that aren't tattered? Jeez, a normal everyday outfit for walking around in is what, like 5 silver?

[A.A.King]

Separate reply for you personally.

Haley's latent bisexuality was never brought attention to so as to serve as a punchline, it was just there in a background, hanging out and meaning stuff. And it was mentioned not once, but twice, with the "I kissed a girl once... more than once".

Haley already knows Bandana herself is in a same-sex relationship, and there is no-one else around to judge her. That's what she fears - being judged by others and being found wanting.
With Bandana, she's safe. Maybe she won't talk about her past relationships in detail, but she can casually admit same-sex attraction at least as a part of a jokish banter that has plausible deniability into "even if I swung that way".

If OotS world hadn't found same-sex relationships icky, Haley's line about "I kissed a girl once" wouldn't have made any sense. Just imagine her saying there "I kissed a boy once. Ok, more than once!!!" The point of that phrase is her internalized biphobia/homophobia leading her to regard that as a "dirty secret".

This exchange here signifies character development for her and writing development for Rich.

And no, Haley's bisexuality is not just a one-off joke. It's the third time it's mentioned, which makes it definitely canon. Deal with it.

In OOTS 382 the one mention of "Haley's Latent Bisexuality" definitely sounds like a joke to me. It wasn't "in the background, hanging out and meaning stuff." She appeared in even less panels than "Peroxide".

She says, "I kissed a girl once, okay more than once" as the possible secret to cure her speach, but only AFTER having also admitted "cheating at solitair". I don't think the OOTS world has a big vendetta against Solitair Cheaters. Somebody wanting to keep something secret doesn't have to mean the world wants you to keep it secret. It might be nothing more than "Everybody experiments in college".

I don't buy that she told Bandana about her (by you) supposed bisexuality secret, because I don't buy that the OOTS world is a world which would require ppl to keep it secret. Therefor I don't think that line reveals information about Haley, because I don't believe Haley to be close enough to Bandana to share secrets with her not shared with anyone else. Deal with it.

[Neoriceisgood]

Well that answers the question of what she turned into.

[Quild]

Sooo, did Bandana thought it was the first of Haley's seven evil exes? :D


I first thought that the line about the "girlfriend" was quite... forced (is that the correct word? sounded artificial anyway) the first time I readed it, but in the end, I'm cool with it.
I never spotted the Rachel and Kyran thing in 311 and I guess Bandana and Haley had time to bond together offpanel just before #959.

[Liliet]

Undead and golems aren't cheap, so the people who make them shouldn't be that hard up for cash. So why can't any of them afford to put their creations in some clothes that aren't tattered? Jeez, a normal everyday outfit for walking around in is what, like 5 silver?
Maybe the idea is that both of those are so sloppy and uncoordinated, even the best clothes become tattered on them in like five minutes.


In OOTS 382 the one mention of "Haley's Latent Bisexuality" definitely sounds like a joke to me. It wasn't "in the background, hanging out and meaning stuff." She appeared in even less panels than "Peroxide".

She says, "I kissed a girl once, okay more than once" as the possible secret to cure her speach, but only AFTER having also admitted "cheating at solitair". I don't think the OOTS world has a big vendetta against Solitair Cheaters. Somebody wanting to keep something secret doesn't have to mean the world wants you to keep it secret. It might be nothing more than "Everybody experiments in college".

I don't buy that she told Bandana about her (by you) supposed bisexuality secret, because I don't buy that the OOTS world is a world which would require ppl to keep it secret. Therefor I don't think that line reveals information about Haley, because I don't believe Haley to be close enough to Bandana to share secrets with her not shared with anyone else. Deal with it.

Treating bisexuality with condescension, as something you "just experiment" with, as something that's a shameful secret (and let's admit it, cheating at solitaire is kinda mock-worthy) - THAT is biphobia too.

Coming to terms with your queerness can turn it into a weird half-secret, where to some people you talk about it or at least joke about it easily because you know they are queer too and are on your side (like Bandana), but to others you stay in the closet because you are not sure about their reaction.

That's how it works in our real world right now. Which OotS mirrors.

[Liliet]

Sooo, did Bandana thought it was the first of Haley's seven evil exes? :D


I first thought that the line about the "girlfriend" was quite... forced (is that the correct word? sounded artificial anyway) the first time I readed it, but in the end, I'm cool with it.
I never spotted the Rachel and Kyran thing in 311 and I guess Bandana and Haley had time to bond together offpanel just before #959.

Imagine that Crystal is a guy and Bandana asked if it's the ex-boyfriend. Sounds better?

[Mr_Scruffy_Kilz]

I have found it, she isn't a Golem... she is a Crystal-born (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Humans,_Crystal-Born_(3.5e_Race))...

That is right, her full name is Crystal Born, and it is really not her name, it is her race... it was so obvious. Now she has a Born (or Reborn) Identity. We shall see the Crystal Born Supremacy. This is her Born Legacy after Haley gave her the Crystal Born Ultimatum... cause she is obviously Cross with Haley.

[SteveMB]

She says, "I kissed a girl once, okay more than once" as the possible secret to cure her speach, but only AFTER having also admitted "cheating at solitair". I don't think the OOTS world has a big vendetta against Solitair Cheaters. Somebody wanting to keep something secret doesn't have to mean the world wants you to keep it secret. It might be nothing more than "Everybody experiments in college".

I suspect that the issue was more with Haley's personal trust issues than with "OOTS world" (or, more precisely, the particular culture where Haley grew up).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

"If Bozzok raises you, tell him the deal is off. I'm not paying him one copper piece ever again. NOT ONE." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html)

I don't think reanimating her as a golem counts as raising her. I recalled the quote being a bit more significant than it actually was, since it was addressed to someone who was about to die (and it would have been a moot point had Bozzok learned about it after raising her). But it may still be pertinent.

There's also a lot of trouble in finding clerics to raise/resurrect people, as Roy's death showed.

For some reason, I doubt that CG Rogue will consider whether Bozzok raised or reanimated Crystal to be important, even if your interpretation is correct.

[Lurkmoar]

The only reason I can think that Haley would come under attack now is because whoever sent Crystaloem at her(probably Bozzok) is that it was too difficult to launch an attack when she's airborne. Wonder if the wands they picked up will come into play now. I'm on pins and needles for the next one. :smallsmile:

[Maryring]

This might be somewhat crude and gory of me but... did anyone else expect there to be a decapitation when they read the comic title?

[A.A.King]

Treating bisexuality with condescension, as something you "just experiment" with, as something that's a shameful secret (and let's admit it, cheating at solitaire is kinda mock-worthy) - THAT is biphobia too.

Coming to terms with your queerness can turn it into a weird half-secret, where to some people you talk about it or at least joke about it easily because you know they are queer too and are on your side (like Bandana), but to others you stay in the closet because you are not sure about their reaction.

That's how it works in our real world right now. Which OotS mirrors.

I seriously don't find cheating at solitaire that mock worthy. It's a game you play on your own when you're really bored and at some point it's just more fun to just switch a few cards around in stead of having to start over yet again. But that's beside the point

I think you're overestimating the meaning behind non-scientific experimentation. Some people really do simply try-before-they-die only to conclude after multiple case studies that it's a way of life that doesn't float their boat.

Personally I find this new line still not nearly enough to think of Haley as being bi. If she really is then it will come up again. At this moment I still think it's more hoping than concluding. Let's just wait and see for a bit more.

EDIT:

I suspect that the issue was more with Haley's personal trust issues than with "OOTS world" (or, more precisely, the particular culture where Haley grew up).

With her upbringing I could easily believe Haley would keep something like bisexuality a secret. Telling an entire different group of people it's possible to con themselves into your heart? That's not how Ian raised her.
However, my point is that if Haley is indeed keeping her sexuality a secret because of her own personal trust issues (instead of having the secrecy forced upon her by the general OOTS world) then I don't see why she would break her secrecy with Bandana, who hasn't known for all that long yet. Telling Bandana wouldn't be "I haven't been able to share this with anyone, but you of all people will understand why", seeing as the reason for her secrecy lies solely in her own upbringing.

[Liliet]

This might be somewhat crude and gory of me but... did anyone else expect there to be a decapitation when they read the comic title?
I thought they would discuss how Crystal is no longer Haley's rival but has gained a LA instead.
Yeah, I'm boring )=


I seriously don't find cheating at solitaire that mock worthy. It's a game you play on your own when you're really bored and at some point it's just more fun to just switch a few cards around in stead of having to start over yet again. But that's beside the point

I think you're overestimating the meaning behind non-scientific experimentation. Some people really do simply try-before-they-die only to conclude after multiple case studies that it's a way of life that doesn't float their boat.

Personally I find this new line still not nearly enough to think of Haley as being bi. If she really is then it will come up again. At this moment I still think it's more hoping than concluding. Let's just wait and see for a bit more.

It's come up THREE TIMES on separate occasions. How much more do you need.

Regardless of the solitaire context. Just imagine Haley saying the same line about having kissed a boy.


With her upbringing I could easily believe Haley would keep something like bisexuality a secret. Telling an entire different group of people it's possible to con themselves into your heart? That's not how Ian raised her.
However, my point is that if Haley is indeed keeping her sexuality a secret because of her own personal trust issues (instead of having the secrecy forced upon her by the general OOTS world) then I don't see why she would break her secrecy with Bandana, who hasn't known for all that long yet. Telling Bandana wouldn't be "I haven't been able to share this with anyone, but you of all people will understand why", seeing as the reason for her secrecy lies solely in her own upbringing.

Haley didn't exactly pretend to be asexual. Her crush on Elan wasn't a secret to anyone but Elan, and she actually used her potential to fall for guys to her advantage back with the teenage goblin in the first arc.

Haley's trust issues lead her be afraid of queerphobic response from people. She has exactly zero reasons to expect this response from Bandana, especially when BANDANA STARTED IT HERSELF.


I suspect that the issue was more with Haley's personal trust issues than with "OOTS world" (or, more precisely, the particular culture where Haley grew up).

It has to be a combination of the two. Haley won't have issues admitting she, say, brushes teeth every morning. Or that she likes boys. There has to be some reason to think it might need to be kept secret, even if it's vastly overblown, there needs to be /some/ basis.

And we can tell OotS world is heteronormative from something as simple as Elan using the illusion spell creating a creature of opposite gender to whoever he's trying to influence, and it being a punchline when it doesn't work because they are gay.

[Killer Angel]

Well that answers the question of what she turned into.

nonono.
That answers the question of what she did not turned into. Wild speculations will still roam. :smalltongue:

[A.A.King]

It's come up THREE TIMES on separate occasions. How much more do you need.

Regardless of the solitaire context. Just imagine Haley saying the same line about having kissed a boy.

I need this information, if true, to come up in an different context. Had it for example been Elan be the one who said instead of Bandana I'd have agreed with you on what the missing word, about the latent bisexuality and about the kissing girls. You know my reasoning for why I don't think Bandana wouldn't have this information, if true, and therefore couldn't be alluding to it.

Yes, it would have been totally different if it had been "Kissed a boy", but not everybody who secretly lies about the number of times he/she kissed a person of the same gender by claiming it to be nothing more than 0 isn't automatically a bisexual.

Bandana, little heart breaker that she is, simply has had more than one obsessive ex-girlfriend and after being attacked a few times by women who simply couldn't let go she simply jumped to a conclusion after seeing one woman attack another.

But seriously, I don't think of it as anything more than friendly banter just yet and maybe the giant showing once again his opinion about people who would have ended at "ewww, gross"
If this really is Haley's big secret, which I don't think it is, it will come up later. So why not wait till then?

[Killer Angel]

I will admit to being a little disappointed by this being a golem they're fighting, but the revelation of ghost airships more than makes up for that. Rich may have beaten out Neil Gaiman (http://stardust.wikia.com/wiki/Sky_vessel) for best fantasy use of airships, in my view.

To be fair, the Flying Dutchman is around since 18th century... :smallwink:

[A.A.King]

Haley didn't exactly pretend to be asexual. Her crush on Elan wasn't a secret to anyone but Elan, and she actually used her potential to fall for guys to her advantage back with the teenage goblin in the first arc.

Haley's trust issues lead her be afraid of queerphobic response from people. She has exactly zero reasons to expect this response from Bandana, especially when BANDANA STARTED IT HERSELF.

The thing is, I'm pretty sure we have yet to meet any people in the OOTS world who are queerphobic. Granted, up until now we haven't met many who were queer, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Giant decided that, in his world, such a thing simply doesn't exist. Far from it, actually. At this moment I believe the world of OOTS to atleast in that regard be a world better than our own and people there don't have to be afraid of queerphobic responses.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[oppyu]

Bisexual is a label that a lot of people disagree on (what constitutes bisexuality, what's the line between a bisexual and someone who is not bisexual, is it really even a thing, etc.), but there's no questioning that some part of Haley is attracted to women at this point. Even if it weren't canonically established already nobody would be doubting Haley's attraction to men if the genders in the conversation were reversed, she's kissed more than one woman and one of her sub-personalities is named Haley's Latent Bisexuality.

[Quild]

Imagine that Crystal is a guy and Bandana asked if it's the ex-boyfriend. Sounds better?

That is actually what bugs me about it, it wouldn't sound better at all. It would sound really weird.

How do you spontaneously expect the undead monstruosity that attacks someone to be an ex?
Would Bandana ask the same thing if it was Bozzok or Yor attacking?

[littlebum2002]

one of her sub-personalities is named Haley's Latent Bisexuality.

This. I can't believe bisexual erasure is so bad that our character literally has a part of her personality labeled "latent bisexuality" and people still deny she's bisexual.

[oppyu]

Honestly at the time I took that personality to mean Haley was predominantly heterosexual but every now and then a subconscious part of her occasionally glanced at women. It wasn't until this comic's confirmation that Haley actively engaged with her attraction to women (enough to identify that she was/is into women and knows what she likes and doesn't like) that I really considered her bisexual at least in some sense of the word.

[HandofShadows]

One NASTY Flesh Golem. I doubt it's a standard type somehow considering how it/she is acting.

As for Haley's "bending both ways", just remember Elan was courious (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0234.html). :smallbiggrin: Someone better have a stock of scrolls of Remove Curse around though.

[fishguy]

Probably Cadaver Golem. "Misshapened constructs easily mistaken for flesh golems, but they are more intelligent and dangerous, capable of making use of the skills and abilities of those who contributed to its body."
Edit: It cannot be a cadaver golem, as it requires at least six bodies.

I think the guild had a few cadavers lying around at that time due to Belkar's thrashing of the membership.

[Shadowknight12]

That is actually what bugs me about it, it wouldn't sound better at all. It would sound really weird.

How do you spontaneously expect the undead monstruosity that attacks someone to be an ex?
Would Bandana ask the same thing if it was Bozzok or Yor attacking?

IMO Bandana is being biased from her own experience. I wouldn't be surprised if one of her exes had been turned into a wight, vampire or some other type of undead and had been sent against her in a dramatic duel. It sounds like exactly the sort of thing a cheesy BBEG would do to the hero's second in command, and it's also the type of adventure that would happen to Julio.

[Quild]

IMO Bandana is being biased from her own experience. I wouldn't be surprised if one of her exes had been turned into a wight, vampire or some other type of undead and had been sent against her in a dramatic duel. It sounds like exactly the sort of thing a cheesy BBEG would do to the hero's second in command, and it's also the type of adventure that would happen to Julio.

Sounds like a fair assumption.

[Keltest]

This. I can't believe bisexual erasure is so bad that our character literally has a part of her personality labeled "latent bisexuality" and people still deny she's bisexual.

The key word here is "latent." There may be (read: is) some part of her that is attracted to women as well, but unless something has changed since Azure City, it is not a part of her actively involved with decision making.

[happycrow]

The key word here is "latent." There may be (read: is) some part of her that is attracted to women as well, but unless something has changed since Azure City, it is not a part of her actively involved with decision making.

I'm straight and that's a rejoinder I might say to a gay friend of mine (or any of them) in similar circumstances. I'm filing this under "not particularly significant."

Quite curious what happens once she gives up on the arrows and pulls out Crystal's old knife, though.

[Ivrytwr]

Hmmm, not happy to see Crystal back.
Roy could make quick work of her, I wonder if Durkula could take advantage of this ...
Poor Elan, missing out on plot points dropping everywhere.

Thanks Giant.

[Kaytara]

Haley's Not-So-Latent-Bisexuality rears its head. Approval. It's always good to see the 'ew, not THEM' instead of 'ew, no homo' as a response to that question, too.

Personally I've assumed that 'latent' referred to her being in denial about it when it was used back in the Azure City arc, and that, for whatever reason, she's no longer in denial about that. Arguing that someone is actively vs. latently bisexual depending on whether they're *currently* dating a man or not seems... weird.

[goodpeople25]

The key word here is "latent." There may be (read: is) some part of her that is attracted to women as well, but unless something has changed since Azure City, it is not a part of her actively involved with decision making.
Just a question why are we so sure it is latent it was called that only by Haley's self loathing also the fact she thought the dress was hot seems to contradict the latent part.
i dislike reaching into the meaning of the strip but taking everything at face value led into the Tarquin fiasco im.

unless latent means hidden to others not herself in this case is that a possible definition?

[Keltest]

Just a question why are we so sure it is latent it was called that only by Haley's self loathing also the fact she thought the dress was hot seems to contradict the latent part.
i dislike reaching into the meaning of the strip but taking everything at face value led into the Tarquin fiasco im.

unless latent means hidden to others not herself in this case is that a possible definition?

Latent means not yet manifested. And if she were repressing it, her inner selves would probably refer to it as repressed, not latent. As far as I have seen, she has no reason to lie to herself about it to that level.

[Dodom]

Am I the only one who just finds Crystal pathetic?
She thought she'd be rezzed and good as new, but instead she's only going to exist as this monstrosity and is apparently self-aware, I see something tragical in her rage.

[MDR]

I'd be surprised if a place such as this town doesn't have a way to capture and hold runaway constructs.

As for the sexuality discussion...yes, Haley has expressed at least a previous curiosity. Was it just a phase she went through, or does it imply she is attracted to both genders? I do not know. Nor do I care. Either way it has not shown itself to be important (yet). But in this particular case, I think it was just for joke purposes. I know that when I read the 'Ewww, gross.' comment, my jaw dropped and I thought "Really? You said THAT, in front of HER?", but then I read the part about having better taste, and I gave a good laugh because I just got skunked by the Giant.

[goodpeople25]

Latent means not yet manifested. And if she were repressing it, her inner selves would probably refer to it as repressed, not latent. As far as I have seen, she has no reason to lie to herself about it to that level.
Im not saying this is true but that its possible but Haley's self loathing is only one part of her And on the lying to herself part isn't that part of Haley's arc at that point also wether or not she lies about to her self on that level depends on the significance of the bi-sexaulality like the aforementioned Rachel
But whatever l think it could be significant u don't let's just agree to disagree.

Unrelated anyone think we'll get Rachel backstory with bandana just a guess

[pendell]

See Haley, this is why you go melee and pick up Penetrating Strike. :smalltongue:

So she's become some kind of flesh golem that retains its intelligence score. Is it homebrew or from a rulebook? But why was she turned into this and not raised?

This has to be a homebrew of some kind. As to why she was turned into a flesh golem, I offer two speculations:

1) Raise dead and/or resurrection is a lot less commonly available than we might think. It took a whole book to get Roy raised, which would not have happened if every town had a resurrection-while-u-wait drivethrough.

2) It may be cheaper to make a flesh golem than it is to pay the diamonds for raise dead, plus flesh golem Crystal is a more dangerous enemy than living Crystal was, especially if Bozzak has a deal with whomever is running the show now that Grubbwiggler is dead ..

.. unless Grubbwiggler was golemed by his assistants as well?

Just because he was killed doesn't mean he stayed dead, after all.

*Tips his hat to the Giant for another excellent comic*.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[happycrow]

Am I the only one who just finds Crystal pathetic?
She thought she'd be rezzed and good as new, but instead she's only going to exist as this monstrosity and is apparently self-aware, I see something tragical in her rage.

Pathos, yes, tragedy, no. Crystal has never had enough of a soul to warrant the decision-making inherent to tragedy.

[gerryq]

Hey, Haley's latent bisexuality apparently wasn't quite so latent.

Oh God, there are going to be pages and pages of people deeply offended by the gayness.

So far, I only see pages of people trying to find gayness where there's not much evidence of it.

[littlebum2002]

Latent means not yet manifested. And if she were repressing it, her inner selves would probably refer to it as repressed, not latent. As far as I have seen, she has no reason to lie to herself about it to that level.
Yes, Latent bisexuality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_homosexuality) means Haley has not yet explored her bisexuality (except, apparently, for some kissing, which honestly doesn't mean much). But that does not mean she is not bisexual! She has literally stated outright she IS bisexual, she actually has a literal personification of bisexuality in her head. But we still have massive bisexual erasure like this:


In OOTS 382 the one mention of "Haley's Latent Bisexuality" definitely sounds like a joke to me. It wasn't "in the background, hanging out and meaning stuff." She appeared in even less panels than "Peroxide".

She says, "I kissed a girl once, okay more than once" as the possible secret to cure her speach, but only AFTER having also admitted "cheating at solitair". I don't think the OOTS world has a big vendetta against Solitair Cheaters. Somebody wanting to keep something secret doesn't have to mean the world wants you to keep it secret. It might be nothing more than "Everybody experiments in college".

I don't buy that she told Bandana about her (by you) supposed bisexuality secret, because I don't buy that the OOTS world is a world which would require ppl to keep it secret. Therefor I don't think that line reveals information about Haley, because I don't believe Haley to be close enough to Bandana to share secrets with her not shared with anyone else. Deal with it.

and



You know the term "girlfriend" used by girls doesn't necessarily sex partners. Haley means "I have better taste in friends than that."


and


So far, I only see pages of people trying to find gayness where there's not much evidence of it.




Haley is bisexual. We know this. It is a fact, it is canon. She is attracted to men and women, she just hasn't told anyone she is attracted to women, or that she experimented with kissing girls when she was younger. (just like she hasn't told anyone anything else about herself, either.) But "not acting on your sexuality" does not mean "not having your sexuality". So she is attracted to women, and that's why she said "I have better taste in girls than this". She means, IF she would have ever dated a girl, then they would have been better than Crystal, which honestly doesn't say much.

I've heard about bisexual erasure from my bisexual friends, but never really understood how bad it was until I saw someone state outright they were bisexual and see people STILL denying it. Ouch.

[Tvtyrant]

IMO Bandana is being biased from her own experience. I wouldn't be surprised if one of her exes had been turned into a wight, vampire or some other type of undead and had been sent against her in a dramatic duel. It sounds like exactly the sort of thing a cheesy BBEG would do to the hero's second in command, and it's also the type of adventure that would happen to Julio.

Now I'm imagining a Scott Pilgrim VS. The World scenario.

[happycrow]

So far, I only see pages of people trying to find gayness where there's not much evidence of it.

There will be pages and pages of "deeply-offended" people anyway. I've got a "pretty sure I've got V nailed down" theory I'm leery of even posting for fear that it'll wind up locked-in-three. Our track record on any topic touching on gender is pretty bad.

[happycrow]

In terms of a rescue by another PC, architecturally they don't look like they're near the Temples. But the building Elan bounced towards *does* look a bit like "Hats and MORE!" That's probably reading too much into it given the clear backgrounding of the other buildings, but given their locations in town, if there were to be an intervention, I'd expect it to come from Belkar or Varsuvius rather than Roy.

[Psyren]

To those wondering "how did Crystal find Haley" - she has enough of Haley's hair to make a stylish pompadour, that would make scrying extremely easy especially now that they're off the airship. And the Cloister should have worn off a while back.

As for how they got to her - Villain Teleportation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainTeleportation), plus Bozzok and co. may have been to the Northern Lands before whereas the Order (save Durkon) have not.

[Bulldog Psion]

This might be somewhat crude and gory of me but... did anyone else expect there to be a decapitation when they read the comic title?

Well, I guess I'm a bit crude and gory then, too. :smallwink:

However, I did figure that it was her IQ a second later, even before clicking through to the comic, considering how much was said about her being smarter this way in the last discussion thread, and that being used as an argument for "revenant." :smallwink:

[happycrow]

Also, Bozzok knows they're headed to the Northern Lands. Gnometown may just be the obvious port-of-call for people doing that travel.

[Liliet]

Okay, I was planning to respond to all biphobic bs in this thread individually, but nah.

1. I will accept your need for more proof Haley is bi when you present me evidence in the comic that suggests she is not. You might also want to find some proof that V isn't aro ace, Roy isn't pan, Durkon isn't greyromantic bisexual, and Belkar isn't aromantic heterosexual, while you are at it, because I don't remember any. Oh, and you won't be able to find any proof V isn't agender, because ve actually is.

2. Haley's line about having kissed a girl in that context is proof enough that queerphobia exists in OotSverse in some form. Maybe it's specific to one religion, maybe it's just a Thieves' Guild thing, maybe it was only Haley's father personal problem, but fact is, it exists and Haley internalized some of it.

3. I haven't first-hand witnessed what bi erasure looks like and how straight-up dumb it is before either. Ew.

Also, I agree that Bandana's question about an ex probably came from the place of personal experience. That, or she thought it a funny joke. Either one, or both.

[The Giant]

Yes, Latent bisexuality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_homosexuality) means Haley has not yet explored her bisexuality (except, apparently, for some kissing, which honestly doesn't mean much). But that does not mean she is not bisexual! She has literally stated outright she IS bisexual, she actually has a literal personification of bisexuality in her head.

(Snip)

Haley is bisexual. We know this. It is a fact, it is canon. She is attracted to men and women, she just hasn't told anyone she is attracted to women, or that she experimented with kissing girls when she was younger. (just like she hasn't told anyone anything else about herself, either.) But "not acting on your sexuality" does not mean "not having your sexuality". So she is attracted to women, and that's why she said "I have better taste in girls than this". She means, IF she would have ever dated a girl, then they would have been better than Crystal, which honestly doesn't say much.

I've heard about bisexual erasure from my bisexual friends, but never really understood how bad it was until I saw someone state outright they were bisexual and see people STILL denying it. Ouch.

Yes to all of this.

"Latent" means simply that Haley has not fully explored that aspect of her sexuality, and that there's not much opportunity to do so now that she has fallen in love with Elan (and he happens to be a man). It does not mean that aspect of sexuality doesn't exist, or that she's not attracted to women, or that she's not attracted to women anymore. It doesn't even mean she hasn't fooled around with girls, just that there are lines that have not been crossed that—in her mind—would need to be crossed in order for her to feel OK calling herself "openly bisexual." I am not going to detail what those lines are because they're not important and would only cause more pointless arguments. I also don't think it would be in very good taste for me to spend time inventing the details of my female main character's previous sex life just to satisfy the curiosity of forum-goers.

So, because no one can ever accept anything that is heavily implied or alluded to in the comic and only me stating it outright here on the message board ever seems to matter: Haley is bisexual. Quick, run off to the index thread to catalog it for academic posterity!

As to why she is OK talking about it with Bandana: 1.) Bandana's own queerness makes it a non-issue, 2.) She is actively trying to be better about keeping secrets for the sake of secrecy, and 3.) Sometimes, when you're trying to change, it's actually easier to do so with someone you just met than someone who has known you for a long time. The person who knows you will always be expecting the old you, while the new person accepts what you present them as who you are until shown otherwise.

[Bitzer]

This is a great comic; and despite having been in the Revenant camp myself, I'm glad we can settle the golem/undead debate. As for Haley's sexuality, the Giant has provided pretty ironclad evidence about Haley being attracted to women in the past. Assuming she is speaking fact to Bandanna, however, she does not feel that attraction at this time. This conclusion comes from her use of the past tense when speaking of her taste in women. Now, it is entirely possible that Haley is lying to herself (because when has that ever happened), but I am convinced that at this point she only feels attraction towards Elan.

EDIT:: Ninja'd by the Giant himself.

[Liliet]

Yes to all of this.

"Latent" means simply that Haley has not fully explored that aspect of her sexuality, and that there's not much opportunity to do so now that she has fallen in love with Elan (and he happens to be a man). It does not mean that aspect of sexuality doesn't exist, or that she's not attracted to women, or that she's not attracted to women anymore. It doesn't even mean she hasn't fooled around with girls, just that there are lines that have not been crossed that—in her mind—would need to be crossed in order for her to feel OK calling herself "openly bisexual." I am not going to detail what those lines are because they're not important and would only cause more pointless arguments. I also don't think it would be in very good taste for me to spend time inventing the details of my female main character's previous sex life just to satisfy the curiosity of forum-goers.

So, because no one can ever accept anything that is heavily implied or alluded to in the comic and only me stating it outright here on the message board ever seems to matter: Haley is bisexual. Quick, run off to the index thread to catalog it for academic posterity!

As to why she is OK talking about it with Bandana: 1.) Bandana's own queerness makes it a non-issue, 2.) She is actively trying to be better about keeping secrets for the sake of secrecy, and 3.) Sometimes, when you're trying to change, it's actually easier to do so with someone you just met than someone who has known you for a long time. The person who knows you will always be expecting the old you, while the new person accepts what you present them as who you are until shown otherwise.

Amen to this.

[goodpeople25]

Yes to all of this.

"Latent" means simply that Haley has not fully explored that aspect of her sexuality, and that there's not much opportunity to do so now that she has fallen in love with Elan (and he happens to be a man). It does not mean that aspect of sexuality doesn't exist, or that she's not attracted to women, or that she's not attracted to women anymore. It doesn't even mean she hasn't fooled around with girls, just that there are lines that have not been crossed that—in her mind—would need to be crossed in order for her to feel OK calling herself "openly bisexual." I am not going to detail what those lines are because they're not important and would only cause more pointless arguments. I also don't think it would be in very good taste for me to spend time inventing the details of my female main character's previous sex life just to satisfy the curiosity of forum-goers.

So, because no one can ever accept anything that is heavily implied or alluded to in the comic and only me stating it outright here on the message board ever seems to matter: Haley is bisexual. Quick, run off to the index thread to catalog it for academic posterity!

As to why she is OK talking about it with Bandana: 1.) Bandana's own queerness makes it a non-issue, 2.) She is actively trying to be better about keeping secrets for the sake of secrecy, and 3.) Sometimes, when you're trying to change, it's actually easier to do so with someone you just met than someone who has known you for a long time. The person who knows you will always be expecting the old you, while the new person accepts what you present them as who you are until shown otherwise.
Thanks for clarifying.

[Liliet]

This is a great comic; and despite having been in the Revenant camp myself, I'm glad we can settle the golem/undead debate. As for Haley's sexuality, the Giant has provided pretty ironclad evidence about Haley being attracted to women in the past. Assuming she is speaking fact to Bandanna, however, she does not feel that attraction at this time. This conclusion comes from her use of the past tense when speaking of her taste in women. Now, it is entirely possible that Haley is lying to herself (because when has that ever happened), but I am convinced that at this point she only feels attraction towards Elan.

EDIT:: Ninja'd by the Giant himself.

I think the past tense is just because she can't possibly be attracted to Crystal now and is referencing the time when she was alive and so it was a possibility.

[happycrow]

Liliet: don't understand the phobic comment. Haley is clearly bi, as established in-comic and reiterated by forum statement by Giant. Similarly, Qarr refers to V as a "she" and V's mate has the lego-brick male bottom (which is artistically consistent in artwork depicting elves, c.f. scenes with the Resistance). To me that's enough to say "Qarr could care less what kind of plumbing V has, but is able to perceive it accurately." I could easily be wrong -- I usually am. Is it important? Well, only if it's important to the story. So far, outside of some laughs at Belkar's expense, I'd have to say "no, not particularly." And the laughs at Belkar's expense seem to me to be precisely because he's such an immature doofus that to him it's a burning issue. As I see it the only real importance of the Haley situation is "oh look, character growth" and that she appears to have a pretty good friendship with Bandana. Could care less about any of the rest of it, because so far as I can tell, none of it has any relevance to the story.

Sorry if I irked you -- I just don't see why gender questions always have to be such an issue.

Bitzer: I picked revenant too, but I'm never, ever right about these things. My dramatic instincts and those of the Giant are different, which is part of why it's such fun to read these puppies.

[The Giant]

I think the past tense is just because she can't possibly be attracted to Crystal now and is referencing the time when she was alive and so it was a possibility.

The past tense was simply in response to the fact that she had previously referenced Crystal as being "from her past." Most people do not have the same exact taste in romantic partners in their mid-20's that they had as a teenager, so Haley was specifically saying, "Even as a teenager, I had better taste." It has nothing to do with her orientation.

[Bulldog Psion]

Also, Bozzok knows they're headed to the Northern Lands. Gnometown may just be the obvious port-of-call for people doing that travel.

I've been arguing that for a long time. Nice to see that someone else concurs it may be the case. :smallsmile:

I mean, if you receive information that someone is transiting through the Netherlands, guessing that they're going to be at Schiphol Airport at some point is a logical inference. (To use a somewhat inexact, but appropriate, real-world simile, and one that I have personal experience with.)

[Keltest]

I've been arguing that for a long time. Nice to see that someone else concurs it may be the case. :smallsmile:

I mean, if you receive information that someone is transiting through the Netherlands, guessing that they're going to be at Schiphol Airport at some point is a logical inference. (To use a somewhat inexact, but appropriate, real-world simile, and one that I have personal experience with.)

Certainly if youre traveling by airship rather than water ship, youre going to need to use a more specialized port for maintenance and refueling, even without the massive god-storm.

[Crusher]

3.) Sometimes, when you're trying to change, it's actually easier to do so with someone you just met than someone who has known you for a long time. The person who knows you will always be expecting the old you, while the new person accepts what you present them as who you are until shown otherwise.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Since Elan's out cold, Haley's talking to a slightly different audience than if it was the 3 of them chatting. Not that keeping secrets from your bf/gf is something you want to make a habit of, but talking casually about your romantic past in front of them (especially with other people around) can come across as awkward/rude in general.

[Liliet]

Liliet: don't understand the phobic comment. Haley is clearly bi, as established in-comic and reiterated by forum statement by Giant. Similarly, Qarr refers to V as a "she" and V's mate has the lego-brick male bottom (which is artistically consistent in artwork depicting elves, c.f. scenes with the Resistance). To me that's enough to say "Qarr could care less what kind of plumbing V has, but is able to perceive it accurately." I could easily be wrong -- I usually am. Is it important? Well, only if it's important to the story. So far, outside of some laughs at Belkar's expense, I'd have to say "no, not particularly." And the laughs at Belkar's expense seem to me to be precisely because he's such an immature doofus that to him it's a burning issue. As I see it the only real importance of the Haley situation is "oh look, character growth" and that she appears to have a pretty good friendship with Bandana. Could care less about any of the rest of it, because so far as I can tell, none of it has any relevance to the story.

Sorry if I irked you -- I just don't see why gender questions always have to be such an issue.

In unequal power dynamics, it's common for one with more power to not understand why it's always such an issue for the one with less.

Representation is very important for MOGAI people. If you are curious about why, PM me. It's getting off-topic.

(also, the fiends don't know V's biological sex either, and also apparently are not aware what non-binary is and what pronouns they could use without desperate anatomical guessing. If Qarr knew, he'd have told them)


Certainly if youre traveling by airship rather than water ship, youre going to need to use a more specialized port for maintenance and refueling, even without the massive god-storm.

Yeah. I don't think "how they were found" is any sort of a big question. OotS are kind of noticable, what with their near-epic levels and all.

The question is, what is going to be made of this encounter? Giant doesn't show fights just for the sake of fights...

[FallenFallcrest]

Hey Rich, sorry for all of the confusion you have had to deal with this particular strip. It would seem that a formal lesson in Grammar, definitions, and reading comprehension is in order. But I do have to say for this one that you really went all out on the artwork. It is an excellent battle scene that takes the stick figure artwork to an extreme. The dialogue between Crystal and Haley is a bit awkward; I guess it is supposed to be since Crystal is sort of undead (flesh construct with a soul/mind or whatever) and they are in the middle of battle. I just wish Haley could get rid of those annoying people in her past because the Theives Guild is not much of a threat, but they have the resources to always be a nuisance if they wanted to be. Hopefully sending agents across the world after one person will prove too expensive and they will give up. Or some other solution, which I am sure will be quite clever. Until then.

[Stella]

But to get this Golem wouldn't Bozzok have to raise Grubwiggler, thus requiring the means of raising someone *and then* the means of making a golem?

Grubwiggler's golem apparatus was based on !science!, he just hooked up the body and waited for a storm. Or a lightning burst from a convenient outsider. Anyone who watched him operate it, such as his faux-hunchedbacked minion, could have created the Crystal golem.

[Inevitability]

Hm... Awakened Flesh Golem? Though that would imply the Thieves' Guild has access to 9th-level spells...

[UristMcRandom]

Grubwiggler's golem apparatus was based on !science!, he just hooked up the body and waited for a storm. Or a lightning burst from a convenient outsider. Anyone who watched him operate it, such as his faux-hunchedbacked minion, could have created the Crystal golem.

Not true, actually, he makes mention of casting spells a couple of times times (strips 575, panel 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0575.html) and 576, panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0576.html)), not to mention his process requires at least eleven secret herbs and reagents (also 576, panel 4). It's possible that Giro (the assistant) knows what goes in these formulas, but unless he's got that knowledge (or a sample of one of the formulas), and enough levels in whatever spellcasting class Grubwiggler uses to cast the appropriate spells? We'd need Grubwiggler himself to operate it.

[t209]

So anyone what skills does Flesh Golem have, other than Crystal's similarity to the Frankenstein's novel version (super human and ran fast thought the latter had more intelligence).

[Keltest]

So anyone what skills does Flesh Golem have, other than Crystal's similarity to the Frankenstein's novel version (super human and ran fast thought the latter had more intelligence).

Off the top of my head, theyre healed by electricity, are strong and durable, and have all the benefits of being mindless constructs. Crystal though may not get all of those, as she has something resembling a mind. Theyre also immune to magic.

[Stella]

Yes to all of this. [...] Haley is bisexual. [And has always been bisexual.]


If it's "forced" now, that's only because I failed to include any obviously gay characters for 900+ strips and that is so completely uncool that I need to fix it NOW, not later.

We've always been at war with Eastasia.

[Bulldog Psion]

Hm... Awakened Flesh Golem? Though that would imply the Thieves' Guild has access to 9th-level spells...

I could almost swear I'd come across something Frankenstein-like in one of the Monster Manuals, or perhaps Dragon magazine. It's right on the tip of my tongue ...

[Gnoman]

2.) She is actively trying to be better about keeping secrets for the sake of secrecy

This is the only reason I really found the line important, as it shows just how far along Haley's gone with one of her more important character arcs.

[Snails]

But yes, a golem with DR and immunity to sneak attack is very effective against a rogue. Even Roy's sword, which is starmetal, not adamant, should suffer the DR.

It is quite possible that Starmetal can defeat Adamant DR. The fact Roy's sword could destroy Girard's Gate is a possible hint.

[Giggling Ghast]

My guess of "cadaver golem" is looking more and more likely.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=6

Granted, she's not Large size, but Crystal is a relatively new golem that probably hasn't had time to add any body parts and some allowances can be made given the medium.

[Canisius]

This has to be a homebrew of some kind. As to why she was turned into a flesh golem, I offer two speculations:

1) Raise dead and/or resurrection is a lot less commonly available than we might think. It took a whole book to get Roy raised, which would not have happened if every town had a resurrection-while-u-wait drivethrough.

2) It may be cheaper to make a flesh golem than it is to pay the diamonds for raise dead, plus flesh golem Crystal is a more dangerous enemy than living Crystal was, especially if Bozzak has a deal with whomever is running the show now that Grubbwiggler is dead ..

<snip>

Gah! Someone in the discussion thread from the previous comic had ID'd what Crystal is, and since I don't speak native D&D I can't remember what it was. But it fits perfectly with the DR and slam attacks. Now I'm gonna have to pour through that discussion to satisfy my curiosity. I'm pretty sure whoever it was nailed it.

[Kaytara]

Rich, is it okay if I ask you how you gained your - for lack of a better word - proficiency in talking about and tackling the subject of marginalised groups? Most people don't just stumble on something social justice-ey and keep reading, not with the kind of ingrained bias we're all brought up with, and a lot of people in your position - men with a runaway successful project in a male-oriented genre - tend to get blinded by hubris and become resistant to any and all criticism, never mind that on the subject of representation.


In terms of a rescue by another PC, architecturally they don't look like they're near the Temples. But the building Elan bounced towards *does* look a bit like "Hats and MORE!" That's probably reading too much into it given the clear backgrounding of the other buildings, but given their locations in town, if there were to be an intervention, I'd expect it to come from Belkar or Varsuvius rather than Roy.

I'd ask why, precisely, V needs to be "nailed down". Non-binary people exist. They're not an unknown, and they've existed in various cultures historically. Not every culture is as adamant about gender essentialism as Western culture is. And, in-between the extremely consistent lack of gendered pronouns to refer to oneself, and an outright "I fail to see what difference it makes" when the party tries to guess the Oracle's gender, V seems to be pretty damn clearly of the opinion that gender in general is irrelevant, and probably doesn't identify as either.

In some ways, trying to "guess V's gender" is a beloved traditional pasttime of forum goers, but after becoming more aware of the genderqueer community, I've come to the conclusion that the very frequency with which this question arises and the desperation with which people keep asking and guessing if V's "a boy or a girl" says some pretty troubling things about how much we're conditioned to believe the gender binary myth. If you're interested in why it's a myth, read the Wiki page on 'Intersex'. The sheer breadth of sexual characteristics that show up in nature alone disprove the "it's biology" aspect of it, which gender essentialism tends to be based on.

[Liliet]

This is the only reason I really found the line important, as it shows just how far along Haley's gone with one of her more important character arcs.

There are other reasons it's important, but this one is good too.

[Burner28]

Pretty cool strip.

[cybishop]

Getting back to a discussion of the actual plot...


I'm hoping Haley will just straight-up run away and get Roy. There's a time and place for proving yourself or dealing with your own rival, but Rogues don't fare well against golems, to put it lightly. A little Power Attack action ought to take her down a notch.

Haley probably realizes that she's not well-matched against a whatever-Crystal-is, but she can't outrun Crystal while carrying Elan and shouldn't leave him behind. Ideally she'll send Bandanna and/or a bystander to get help while she distracts Crystal.

[Giggling Ghast]

Probably Cadaver Golem. "Misshapened constructs easily mistaken for flesh golems, but they are more intelligent and dangerous, capable of making use of the skills and abilities of those who contributed to its body."
Edit: It cannot be a cadaver golem, as it requires at least six bodies.

Haley definitely killed more than six members of the thieves guild.

And yes, while Grubwiggler is dead, I think his assistant may still be alive.

[Particle_Man]

I guess golem makes more sense than undead anyhow, if it is Bozzok behind this. Bozzok is smart enough to know (via Haley's treacherous uncle, if nothing else) that Haley is travelling with a high level cleric now, which pretty much can neutralize any undead threat that Bozzok can afford to have created.

[Particle_Man]

Haley definitely killed more than six members of the rogue's guild.


And Bozzok might decide that it is more cost-efficient to make a cadaver golem than to raise 6 guild members.

[Canisius]

Gah! Someone in the discussion thread from the previous comic had ID'd what Crystal is, and since I don't speak native D&D I can't remember what it was. But it fits perfectly with the DR and slam attacks. Now I'm gonna have to pour through that discussion to satisfy my curiosity. I'm pretty sure whoever it was nailed it.

Okay, never mind. I was thinking Mohrg, but they're undead. But - is there such an enchantment as "protection from good?"

[Keltest]

Okay, never mind. I was thinking Mohrg, but they're undead. But - is there such an enchantment as "protection from good?"

Yes, there is a protection spell from every alignment I believe.

[Giggling Ghast]

And Bozzok might decide that it is more cost-efficient to make a cadaver golem than to raise 6 guild members.

Also more effective, as a single golem is better against a rogue than a handful of low-level mooks.

[SoC175]

2) It may be cheaper to make a flesh golem than it is to pay the diamonds for raise dead, plus flesh golem Crystal is a more dangerous enemy than living Crystal was, especially if Bozzak has a deal with whomever is running the show now that Grubbwiggler is dead .. Making a flesh golem is much more expensive than a raise dead. It's even more expensive than a ressurection

[happycrow]

I'd ask why, precisely, V needs to be "nailed down". Non-binary people exist.

Should try not to make assumptions -- I'm old as dirt and a long-time Ally: have been since the days when that meant a strong likelihood of getting the crap kicked out of you. That said, the answer is: because I was curious. And that's all the answer that should ever be required. Nobody should ever require another person's approval in order to exercise their curiosity.

But to give the question more respect than it's due, I'm an archaelogist and historian and issues of artistic representation interest me. I looked into it primarily because of the curved-vs-lego-butt observation made previously. I was curious regarding the Giant's artistic style when it comes to both representing elves, and whether anything could be read into, say, V line vs. scoop neck for tunics. I find the notion of stick-figuring (as done here, on XKCD, and other places), really interesting, and have been looking to develop my own style of doing so which would be flexible enough to be viable, but also personal enough not to simply be cribbing another person's work.

[happycrow]

Making a flesh golem is much more expensive than a raise dead. It's even more expensive than a ressurection

HOWEVER, there's an angle within our typical wild-ass speculation that works here -- if Haley double-crossed the Guild, then she gets no credit for taking care of the renegade Loki figure, and the Grubwiggler issue remains a reputational problem. However, the Guild could approach the Loki clerics and pin Haley's behavior as having worked with the renegade Loki priest, saying "this is on you -- fix it." Grubwiggler's back in action and now owes the Guild a favor.

No more likely than any other option, and I'm always wrong about these things. But there are plenty of angles besides coin.

Edit: hrm. In retrospect, my crackpot theory makes less sense than usual. But essentially, the Church of Loki, Grubwiggler, and the Guild can all arguably be said to have gotten played by Haley. Some sort of mutual cooperation on that front seems plausible.

[SpacemanSpif]

Not true, actually, he makes mention of casting spells a couple of times times (strips 575, panel 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0575.html) and 576, panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0576.html)), not to mention his process requires at least eleven secret herbs and reagents (also 576, panel 4). It's possible that Giro (the assistant) knows what goes in these formulas, but unless he's got that knowledge (or a sample of one of the formulas), and enough levels in whatever spellcasting class Grubwiggler uses to cast the appropriate spells? We'd need Grubwiggler himself to operate it.

Making a bone golem out of Roy's corpse involved casting spells, but that also involved animating the golem with and earth elemental spirit bound to Grubwiggler's control. Since Crystal's memories and opinions seem to be there in some form, it's possible that the spellcasting step would be unnecessary.

[allenw]

We've always been at war with Eastasia.

Not seeing the Newspeakiness.
One quote was about a bisexual character (Haley).
One quote was about a gay character (Bandana).
In English, while some may refer to a bisexual person as "gay" in informal discussion, in the context of a discussion of inclusiveness and/or of a person's specific sexual preferences, the two terms are not synonyms.

That being said, the above is evidence (if anyone was wondering) that Rich considers Bandana to be gay, not bi.

[asorel]

There are other reasons it's important, but this one is good too.

I would argue that this is likely the most important reason in-universe. As near as I can tell, the other reasons revolve around the pervasiveness and acceptability of bisexuality and similar phenomena within entertainment and societies as a whole. Things that are not unimportant in and of themselves, but of little relevance to the storyline. It ultimately comes down to how detached from reality a given viewer sees the comic. Art will always imitate life to a greater or lesser extent, but not everything is a political commentary on current events or issues.

As for my opinions on the matter (because someone obviously must have asked), it's good to see homosexual and bisexual characters portrayed in media of entertainment. That being said, I'm not a fan of authors introducing a character of a particular demographic entirely for the purpose of having that demographic represented, but (to me) it doesn't look like that that is what The Giant has done here.

[SoC175]

Making a bone golem out of Roy's corpse involved casting spells, but that also involved animating the golem with and earth elemental spirit bound to Grubwiggler's control. Since Crystal's memories and opinions seem to be there in some form, it's possible that the spellcasting step would be unnecessary.Actually I would say that it makes it even more necessary. You're not only getting the body back up, but also getting the soul back from death

[allenw]

Actually I would say that it makes it even more necessary. You're not only getting the body back up, but also getting the soul back from death
Not necessarily. "Speak with Dead," for example, explicitly doesn't contact the soul, just "impressions" left in the body.

[Keltest]

Not necessarily. "Speak with Dead," for example, explicitly doesn't contact the soul, just "impressions" left in the body.

Um... Ok. Speak with Dead is still a spell.

Edit: Unless you mean you aren't necessarily getting the soul back, in which case carry on.

[Liliet]

Not seeing the Newspeakiness.
One quote was about a bisexual character (Haley).
One quote was about a gay character (Bandana).
In English, while some may refer to a bisexual person as "gay" in informal discussion, in the context of a discussion of inclusiveness and/or of a person's specific sexual preferences, the two terms are not synonyms.

That being said, the above is evidence (if anyone was wondering) that Rich considers Bandana to be gay, not bi.

Sometimes "gay" is used as a synonym to queer, at least in the tumblr queer community. I have seen asexual people refer to themselves as "hella gay", just as an antonym to "straight".


I would argue that this is likely the most important reason in-universe. As near as I can tell, the other reasons revolve around the pervasiveness and acceptability of bisexuality and similar phenomena within entertainment and societies as a whole. Things that are not unimportant in and of themselves, but of little relevance to the storyline. It ultimately comes down to how detached from reality a given viewer sees the comic. Art will always imitate life to a greater or lesser extent, but not everything is a political commentary on current events or issues.

As for my opinions on the matter (because someone obviously must have asked), it's good to see homosexual and bisexual characters portrayed in media of entertainment. That being said, I'm not a fan of authors introducing a character of a particular demographic entirely for the purpose of having that demographic represented, but (to me) it doesn't look like that that is what The Giant has done here.

You might be thinking about /adding/ unimportant characters to serves as token minority, which really is a thing to not be a fan of. There's nothing wrong with just making characters with different sexualities, genders, ethnicities, skin color, hair color, etc for no other reason that that's how different they are in real life and you want your work to reflect it much the same way as you'd prefer it to reflect the rules of perspective of human visual perception, anatomical principles etc. There is some baseline level of realism that even the most fantastical works need to meet in order to have some relevance to the viewer.

[asorel]

You might be thinking about /adding/ unimportant characters to serves as token minority, which really is a thing to not be a fan of. There's nothing wrong with just making characters with different sexualities, genders, ethnicities, skin color, hair color, etc for no other reason that that's how different they are in real life and you want your work to reflect it much the same way as you'd prefer it to reflect the rules of perspective of human visual perception, anatomical principles etc. There is some baseline level of realism that even the most fantastical works need to meet in order to have some relevance to the viewer.

This is almost exactly what I meant, though I wasn't referring only to minor characters. One thing I have also seen happen occasionally, though I can't speak for how common it is, is suddenly establishing some for of queerness to pay some form of lip service to equality. In a recent book that I read, one of the chapters established one of the characters as being homosexual. This fact wasn't referenced at all outside of this chapter, and it did nothing to add to the depth of the character. It's not exactly a token character, as the reveal took place in the back half of the book, and wasn't touched upon, but an author attempting to shoehorn social justice into an art piece in this fashion is not something I appreciate (As mentioned before, I'm not implying that this is what is happening in OotS).

[Svata]

We've always been at war with Eastasia.

Um, I think you're missing the context clue in the phrase "an obviously gay character". Also bi!=gay.

[Liliet]

This is almost exactly what I meant, though I wasn't referring only to minor characters. One thing I have also seen happen occasionally, though I can't speak for how common it is, is suddenly establishing some for of queerness to pay some form of lip service to equality. In a recent book that I read, one of the chapters established one of the characters as being homosexual. This fact wasn't referenced at all outside of this chapter, and it did nothing to add to the depth of the character. It's not exactly a token character, as the reveal took place in the back half of the book, and wasn't touched upon, but an author attempting to shoehorn social justice into an art piece in this fashion is not something I appreciate (As mentioned before, I'm not implying that this is what is happening in OotS).

What exactly does being one or the other sexual orientation have to add to the depth of the character? Why can't mogai people simply /be/? Just exist? Sort of like how Roy's skin color has no relevance to his character anywhere, at all. Do you view his, Durkon's, Sabine's appearance as "shoehorning social justice"?

(it also evades me just what exactly is wrong with putting justice in places it didn't used to be btw)

This is probably getting off-topic and we should probably continue this in private messages, though.

[Bulldog Psion]

After previous threads, seeing the word "relevance," which was repeated in them to the point of inducing madness, is enough to get me ready to break out my ego whip and id insinuation ... :smallwink:

[Doug Lampert]

It is quite possible that Starmetal can defeat Adamant DR. The fact Roy's sword could destroy Girard's Gate is a possible hint.

It's largely irrelevant. The easiest way to deal with DR X/obscure material is to take a magical two handed weapon, belt of giant strength, and power attack for 10 or so and blow right through the DR.

Thog power attack for 1d12+567 damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html) makes 5-15 DR look pretty minor by comparison.

[Emperordaniel]

After previous threads, seeing the word "relevance," which was repeated in them to the point of inducing madness, is enough to get me ready to break out my ego whip and id insinuation ... :smallwink:

Are you sure this has relevance to the current discussion? :smallwink:

[Tvtyrant]

It's largely irrelevant. The easiest way to deal with DR X/obscure material is to take a magical two handed weapon, belt of giant strength, and power attack for 10 or so and blow right through the DR.

Thog power attack for 1d12+567 damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html) makes 5-15 DR look pretty minor by comparison.

Is Thog supposed to be charging in that picture???

[Keltest]

Is Thog supposed to be charging in that picture???

Thog is about to divide that poor human person in two with one strike.

[eilandesq]

We might be eliminating revenant a bit hastily here--this is from the classic D&D description that originally appeared in the Fiend Folio:

http://www.padnd.com/monster_manual/mm00250.php

Although it is undead, the revenant is motivated entirely by self-will. Therefore, as it is not inherently evil, it is not affected by holy water, holy/unholy symbols, or other religious paraphernalia. It cannot be turned by priests nor can it be raised or resurrected.

Bandana has no way of knowing this unless she's heard of revenants, so the fact that she views the holy water test as definitive doesn't mean much. Also:

The revenant's body does decay, though at a slower rate than normal. Within three to six months, the corpse decomposes rapidly and the revenant's spirit returns to the plane from which it came.

Which is consistent with Haley's reaction to the smell.

[The Giant]

Yes to all of this. [...] Haley is bisexual. [And has always been bisexual.]


If it's "forced" now, that's only because I failed to include any obviously gay characters for 900+ strips and that is so completely uncool that I need to fix it NOW, not later.


We've always been at war with Eastasia.

Cute, but those quotes don't contradict one another at all, for three reasons:

1.) Because "gay" does not mean "bi." It can include bi, in some uses, but it is not necessarily inclusive of the whole LGBTAI+ universe. It is entirely appropriate to use the word "gay" to exclusively refer to solely homosexual characters, which is what I was doing in the second (older) quote. Bandana is gay; Haley is not.

2.) And it should have been obvious that I was using the word in that manner, because the comic has had an openly bisexual character for a long time—Sabine. One can argue whether or not she's an especially positive portrayal, but she's definitely there.

3.) Because even if you choose to deliberately ignore the two above points, the context of that conversation included the idea put forth by many people that Haley wasn't obviously bisexual—that the clues from the comic were ambiguous, that it could mean anything, that it wasn't representy enough to count as representation. There were people saying that exact thing on this very thread! So my statement was intended to include the idea that while I may have put a bisexual character into the comic, I did not do so in a way that was obvious to everyone, and that is part of what I was fixing.


Rich, is it okay if I ask you how you gained your - for lack of a better word - proficiency in talking about and tackling the subject of marginalised groups? Most people don't just stumble on something social justice-ey and keep reading, not with the kind of ingrained bias we're all brought up with, and a lot of people in your position - men with a runaway successful project in a male-oriented genre - tend to get blinded by hubris and become resistant to any and all criticism, never mind that on the subject of representation.

I don't think I have any special proficiency in tackling this, but I also think that you have it a bit backwards (or sideways, at least). Being a successful man in a historically male-oriented genre is what gives me the freedom to tackle an issue like representation. It's why anyone is listening in the first place, sadly. If I was not a man, people wouldn't believe me; if I was unsuccessful, they wouldn't care; and if I was pursuing a more traditionally woman- or LGBT-friendly genre, I would be preaching to the choir.

But I'm in the unique position of having an audience comprised of a large percentage of people that may be somewhat unaccustomed to this message at the exact time in history when there are also enough people who already support the message to cushion any financial fallout from speaking my mind. I can afford to lose the readers who would ragequit over it, to be blunt, and better to lose them because of something I really believe in than because of my crappy update frequency. Frankly, I'll never notice the difference between a lost reader because I included queer representation and a lost reader because I didn't deliver their calendar on time, so why not say what needs to be said? Plus, I mean, people totally lost their **** when I suggested maybe we shouldn't have stats for baby dragons in the Monster Manual, and this is way more important an issue than that.

Basically, I have the social privilege that allows me to be heard and now I have the commercial success to weather the consequences thereof, so therefore I have a responsibility to say something. To do otherwise would be self-serving cowardice.

[The Giant]

We might be eliminating revenant a bit hastily here--this is from the classic D&D description that originally appeared in the Fiend Folio:

http://www.padnd.com/monster_manual/mm00250.php

Although it is undead, the revenant is motivated entirely by self-will. Therefore, as it is not inherently evil, it is not affected by holy water, holy/unholy symbols, or other religious paraphernalia. It cannot be turned by priests nor can it be raised or resurrected.

Bandana has no way of knowing this unless she's heard of revenants, so the fact that she views the holy water test as definitive doesn't mean much. Also:

The revenant's body does decay, though at a slower rate than normal. Within three to six months, the corpse decomposes rapidly and the revenant's spirit returns to the plane from which it came.

Which is consistent with Haley's reaction to the smell.

It's not a revenant. It's a flesh golem. Give it up already.

[Lauren]

So, because no one can ever accept anything that is heavily implied or alluded to in the comic and only me stating it outright here on the message board ever seems to matter: Haley is bisexual. Quick, run off to the index thread to catalog it for academic posterity!

I had always read her as bisexual, regardless of the erasure on the forums, and I am bi myself, so I am profoundly glad that you have stated it outright. Thank you for this representation.

I also want to thank Liliet for her posts in this thread. I hope people who didn't already know how bad biphobia and bi erasure can get have an idea of it now.

[eilandesq]

It's not a revenant. It's a flesh golem. Give it up already.

OK--wasn't sure you meant it to be definitive, but I'm certainly willing to accept Word Of Giant. :-)

[DaggerPen]

1. I love The Giant.
2. I tend to avoid using "gay" to describe same-gender attraction unless the person in question is exclusively attracted to the same gender for this exact reason. I know not everyone is comfortable reclaiming "queer," but this type of semantics crap is confusing at best and outright bi erasure at worst. I'm not gay, I'm bi.
3. Before I read through this whole debacle of a debate, I did want to comment on how I thought Haley openly referring to her attraction to women showed some nice character growth compared to her earlier "EVERYTHING IS A SECRET" issues, and I'm pleased to see it confirmed that it was indeed an example of that. We need subtle little moments like that mixed in with the more obvious character growth moments. Belkar worrying over Bloodfeast. Haley casually referring to something she'd kept a closely guarded secret. Vaarsuvius taking a more active voice after returning from Hell to save the Order. Change is a series of little moments as much as it is big, dramatic events.
4. Flesh golem, huh? I had thought the Revenant theorists were onto something, but obviously not so much. I wonder if we'll get more detail as to why she seems to have retained a sense of self, or if we're just gonna leave it at "homebrewed"? I'm fine either way, just curious if there might be any plot relevance to the "why" beyond "it makes for better drama."
5. I laughed entirely too hard at "she's obviously a crystal golem," so cookies for you lot.

[Bird]

I don't think I have any special proficiency in tackling this, but I also think that you have it a bit backwards (or sideways, at least). Being a successful man in a historically male-oriented genre is what gives me the freedom to tackle an issue like representation. It's why anyone is listening in the first place, sadly. If I was not a man, people wouldn't believe me; if I was unsuccessful, they wouldn't care; and if I was pursuing a more traditionally woman- or LGBT-friendly genre, I would be preaching to the choir.
I quite adore this post, and appreciate your attitude & recognition of privilege. We all need more of this in the world. All art is political--it's just that when someone creates normative-oriented stuff, the politics get ignored by most of the population. Many creators with a lot of privilege ignore the fact that they're benefiting from that privilege, and that their art carries tacit politics whether they intend to address issues of representation of not.

Thinking about the section of the post I've quoted--while I agree that the benefits of privilege are sizable & must be recognized, there's no way of knowing what would have happened if you'd been (for instance) a woman, and created something like OotS. I'm heartened that folks like Kate Beaton and Anita Sarkeesian are also able to find success (though the latter is a strong example of just how much venom a woman may have to put up with for things a man could say with much less personal risk).

[Stella]

Not seeing the Newspeakiness.
One quote was about a bisexual character (Haley).
One quote was about a gay character (Bandana).
In English, while some may refer to a bisexual person as "gay" in informal discussion, in the context of a discussion of inclusiveness and/or of a person's specific sexual preferences, the two terms are not synonyms.

That being said, the above is evidence (if anyone was wondering) that Rich considers Bandana to be gay, not bi.

I was absolutely certain when I made that post that at least one person would tell me that I was wrong due to the difference between homosexual and bisexual. Thank you, and Svata, and Rich himself, for confirming my certainty.

I am well aware of the difference between homosexuality and bisexuality, and that distinction is quite irrelevant in this context. That context being that the Giant has claimed, well prior to his post in this thread, that he felt guilty about not including characters representative of the LBGT community. And yet in this thread he outright states that Haley is bisexual. And, based on the in-character references which have been made, as well as his own comments on the matter, has always been bisexual. (And like it or not, a person's sexuality is not set in stone, it can change over time. Which statement is in no way an endorsement of the "pray away the gay" and other methods employed by homophobes. I speak of the natural process of personality and sexuality change.) Which is a direct contradiction of his earlier post where he decries his failure to be more representative. Because, based on his post in this thread, there has been a bisexual character in this comic since Comic #1.

And thus my reference to the rewriting of history which was so well captured in 1984. Because, like it or not, that is exactly what is going on here. You can behave like the middle classes in 1984 who were so brainwashed by the propaganda machine which was Minitrue that they were oblivious to the clear changes in policy (i.e. "We've always been at war with Eastasia"), or you can recognize the clear fact that history is literally being rewritten right in front of your eyes. It's your choice.

[ti'esar]

Assuming you're reading what the Giant meant correctly,* I have to ask why you feel so strongly on this matter that your go-to analogy is one of the most horrific totalitarian states ever depicted in fiction.

* I parsed it as meaning that in-universe Haley has not just recently "become" bisexual, not that out-of-universe she was always written as bisexual. Frankly if the Giant claimed the latter I'd be a bit surprised, as he hasn't had a great record with these things by his own admission.

[jere7my]

I was absolutely certain when I made that post that at least one person would tell me that I was wrong due to the difference between homosexual and bisexual. Thank you, and Svata, and Rich himself, for confirming my certainty.

I am well aware of the difference between homosexuality and bisexuality, and that distinction is quite irrelevant in this context. That context being that the Giant has claimed, well prior to his post in this thread, that he felt guilty about not including characters representative of the LBGT community. And yet in this thread he outright states that Haley is bisexual. And, based on the in-character references which have been made, as well as his own comments on the matter, has always been bisexual. (And like it or not, a person's sexuality is not set in stone, it can change over time. Which statement is in no way an endorsement of the "pray away the gay" and other methods employed by homophobes. I speak of the natural process of personality and sexuality change.) Which is a direct contradiction of his earlier post where he decries his failure to be more representative. Because, based on his post in this thread, there has been a bisexual character in this comic since Comic #1.

And thus my reference to the rewriting of history which was so well captured in 1984. Because, like it or not, that is exactly what is going on here. You can behave like the middle classes in 1984 who were so brainwashed by the propaganda machine which was Minitrue that they were oblivious to the clear changes in policy (i.e. "We've always been at war with Eastasia"), or you can recognize the clear fact that history is literally being rewritten right in front of your eyes. It's your choice.

I daresay you're missing the point that a) Sabine has been in the comic for almost as long as Haley, as Rich pointed out, and she's been openly bisexual all along, and b) having one hot bi babe who's an evil sex demon and another who only mentions her queerness in passing, as part of a joke, without ever forcing the reader to acknowledge it, is still a level of representation that needs a bit of plumping up.

It's been clear that Haley is bi, to some degree, ever since her latent bisexuality showed up as an actual character, if not before. It's clear that Rich did not consider that background bi-ness sufficient to trigger his representation-o-meter. These are not incompatible statments, and indeed seem plainly evident. Why the accusations of doublespeak?

[Angelalex242]

As a confirmed flesh golem, let's hope somebody made their knowledge check and tells Haley to zap it with fire or ice. As I said on page 1, that Slows (As spell) flesh golems. That'll help.

[runeghost]

I daresay you're missing the point that a) Sabine has been in the comic for almost as long as Haley, as Rich pointed out, and she's been openly bisexual all along, and b) having one hot bi babe who's an evil sex demon and another who only mentions her queerness in passing, as part of a joke, without ever forcing the reader to acknowledge it, is still a level of representation that needs a bit of plumping up.

It's been clear that Haley is bi, to some degree, ever since her latent bisexuality showed up as an actual character, if not before. It's clear that Rich did not consider that background bi-ness sufficient to trigger his representation-o-meter. These are not incompatible statments, and indeed seem plainly evident. Why the accusations of doublespeak?

You said what I was thinking better than I could articulate it. I agree 100%.

[Amarsir]

I am well aware of the difference between homosexuality and bisexuality, and that distinction is quite irrelevant in this context. That context being that the Giant has claimed, well prior to his post in this thread, that he felt guilty about not including characters representative of the LBGT community. And yet in this thread he outright states that Haley is bisexual. And, based on the in-character references which have been made, as well as his own comments on the matter, has always been bisexual. ... Which is a direct contradiction of his earlier post where he decries his failure to be more representative. Because, based on his post in this thread, there has been a bisexual character in this comic since Comic #1.
You don't understand. OotS is a checklist now. Sure there have been bisexual characters, but there weren't sufficiently-obvious gay ones. No doubt the story will end with Elan permanently donning the Girdle of Feminity/Masculinity with an appropriate speech about how cis-centric it is that such an item be labeled "cursed". Because what's the point of having a successful story if you can't make occasional diversions to pump up your multicultural street cred?

[Snowbody]

Aww, here I was hoping it was Sabine just shapeshifted to look like Crystal, and then Rich has to shoot it down on the day the comic is posted.

[DaggerPen]

As a confirmed flesh golem, let's hope somebody made their knowledge check and tells Haley to zap it with fire or ice. As I said on page 1, that Slows (As spell) flesh golems. That'll help.

She knew about the lightning healing golems thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html), so Haley might know the corresponding fire and ice weaknesses.

On an unrelated note, oh no! A character trait originally introduced as a joke becoming a part of the character's actual characterization? In OOTS? Say it ain't so.

[Lombard]

It's why anyone is listening in the first place, sadly.

I'm sad you're sad. :durkon:

Unfortunately those snozzberries (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pwvB4_Te8A#t=0m20s) aren't going to farm themselves so... :smallwink:

[Stella]

{scrubbed}

[The Giant]

Bandana was always going to exist, simply because the airship is integral to the plot going forward and having Julio at the helm would have overshadowed the main characters. Therefore, there was always going to be a character in her position; she was not shoehorned into the plot. Her gayness is not the reason she exists. Did I choose to tick one box instead of the other for her sexuality to redress previous oversights? Yes. But unless the story becomes Bandana's Dating Adventures, there's no aspect of that decision that will affect the plot or the story one iota. So unless you're so ultra-sensitive that just the presence of a gay character tarnishes the work forever in your eyes, you're expressing rage and loathing over nothing.

[The Giant]

Oh hey, remember when I said that I was perfectly willing to lose people who raged over anything I said or did?

Yeah.

This is a reminder that criticism of the comic is permitted but is wholly separate from insults directed at me personally, which are not. And also that hate speech of any kind is not tolerated. Anyone failing to uphold this standard on this thread will be banned.

[Kittenwolf]

But unless the story becomes Bandana's Dating Adventures, there's no aspect of that decision that will affect the plot or the story one iota.

Spinoff! :D

[Porthos]

You must have missed the part where Rich said exactly that: He felt so bad about his personal perception of his earlier failure to include LGBT characters that he felt compelled to shoehorn them into the story as soon as he could, with no consideration to how their introduction actually fit the story, in order to sooth his conscience.

Pretty sure I missed that post as well. And I read each and every post in that thread.

--

*sees Rich's latest post*

Well, never mind then. Still, I think letting people see Rich's words speak for themselves (and not other people's interpretation of them) is worth highlighting. :smallsmile:

[littlebum2002]

You don't understand. OotS is a checklist now. Sure there have been bisexual characters, but there weren't sufficiently-obvious gay ones. No doubt the story will end with Elan permanently donning the Girdle of Feminity/Masculinity with an appropriate speech about how cis-centric it is that such an item be labeled "cursed". Because what's the point of having a successful story if you can't make occasional diversions to pump up your multicultural street cred?

Good point. A comic with all straight characters is much more realistic.

[Kittenwolf]

Good point. A comic with all straight characters is much more realistic.

It really is impossible to win against some Anti-Queer people isn't it?

[oppyu]

Right... don't insult the Giant... don't insult the Giant... don't insult the Giant... I'm really bad at following rules...

So... is there a game mechanics reason nobody gave Crystal a weapon?

[Kittenwolf]

So... is there a game mechanics reason nobody gave Crystal a weapon?

I could be wrong, but I don't think that Golems are typically proficient with anything except natural attacks, barring one or two specific examples.

[littlebum2002]

It really is impossible to win against some Anti-Queer people isn't it?

It's just that they don't understand that "a comic with all straight people in it" is just as forced as "a comic with all LGBT people in it".

It's the same reason a movie with an all-white cast is a normal movie, but a movie with an all-black cast is a "black movie"

[Kittenwolf]

It's just that they don't understand that "a comic with all straight people in it" is just as forced as "a comic with all LGBT people in it".

It's the same reason a movie with an all-white cast is a normal movie, but a movie with an all-black cast is a "black movie"

Or an all-male movie is a normal movie, but a movie with 50/50 male and female cast is a "Feminist" movie

[Peelee]

Right... don't insult the Giant... don't insult the Giant... don't insult the Giant... I'm really bad at following rules...

Ithink you could replace "The Giant" with "other forumers" and still have an applicable rule for most forums. And internet civility in general.

Also, is it wrong to have a sort of morbid curiosity to wish to see what got scrubbed? Not just in this instance, but across the board. Probably is.

[oppyu]

Incidentally I'm also really bad at not insulting people in general. You poopy fartface.

And don't worry, if my scrubs are anything to go by most of it's more boring than the capital red lettering makes it seem.

[Peelee]

Incidentally I'm also really bad at not insulting people in general. You poopy fartface.

....I don't think i walked into that one so much as I booked a livery service with police escort.

[zql]

Suddenly I fear that this discussion will inevitably turn into a "Character's Sexual Orientation Thread" or the like.

[oppyu]

Suddenly I fear that this discussion will inevitably turn into a "Character's Sexual Orientation Thread" or the like.
Some: Uncertain
Some: Straight
Bandana: Gay
Haley, Sabine: Bi

And done.

[ti'esar]

I'm now kind of rooting for Bandana's Dating Adventures to be a bonus feature in Book 6 along the lines of Quoth the Familiar.

[Amarsir]

But unless the story becomes Bandana's Dating Adventures, there's no aspect of that decision that will affect the plot or the story one iota.
I just want you to understand that for some of us, this is the problem.* To explicitly point out something irrelevant to the plot simply to have done so is condescending and makes it seem less normal, not more. If Bandana's sexual preference came up in pursuit of the plot I'd have no problem with it. If you mentioned in the forums or on Twitter that Bandana was gay without it being in-strip I'd have no problem with it. But when you say that a gay character is so noteworthy it needs to be pointed out, you're simultaneously implying that no unspecified character is gay because if they were you'd have mentioned it.

Things that are normal are not noteworthy. Things that are noteworthy are not normal. Which one do you perceive homosexuality as? I think it's normal, and therefore not noteworthy.

* A very very small problem that wouldn't be worth pointing out except that we nitpick everything anyway.

[littlebum2002]

I just want you to understand that for some of us, this is the problem.* To explicitly point out something irrelevant to the plot simply to have done so is condescending and makes it seem less normal, not more. If Bandana's sexual preference came up in pursuit of the plot I'd have no problem with it. If you mentioned in the forums or on Twitter that Bandana was gay without it being in-strip I'd have no problem with it. But when you say that a gay character is so noteworthy it needs to be pointed out, you're simultaneously implying that no unspecified character is gay because if they were you'd have mentioned it.

Things that are normal are not noteworthy. Things that are noteworthy are not normal. Which one do you perceive homosexuality as? I think it's normal, and therefore not noteworthy.

* A very very small problem that wouldn't be worth pointing out except that we nitpick everything anyway.

Were you upset when they pointed out Belkar and Durkons heterosexuality when they were watching Haley disarm the trap? Or any of the other dozens of incidents of heterosexuality which had no impact on the plot?

[sparkyinbozo]

As a gay guy, I really like the phrasing on how this was handled in the comic. In coming out, it always seemed easiest to do so in a way that was a natural part of the conversation rather than a "I'M GAY!" grand announcement. Haley did exactly the former - she made it clear to readers in a way that felt a natural part of the conversation.

Well, as natural as a conversation can be while being attacked by a flesh golem made of your old nemesis.

[Bird]

Were you upset when they pointed out Belkar and Durkons heterosexuality when they were watching Haley disarm the trap?
I agree with your point, but gosh golly that case was upsetting. I'm so glad that we can chalk it up to early installment weirdness, because Durkon encouraging Haley to take 20 so he could leer at her was not a good joke. (I know, I know, parody, but it still wasn't good.)

[Porthos]

I said something very similar in The Thread Which Shall Not Be Named, and I'll say it here again:

Would this strip, in isolation, be ANY different, story structure wise, if Crystal was a dude and Haley said, "Eeew, gross! I had much better taste in boys than him!".

Yes? No?

Yeah. That's what I thought. There would be no difference from a story structure viewpoint. So I think any arguments about it being "forced in" or "unneccessary" or "out of place" just don't ring true at all. In fact, that comment Haley made seems exactly the sort of causal comment that should be put there in that sort of situation. It is about as far from forced as possibly can be.

NB: The fact that it was already establsihed in the comic that Haley had "kissed a girl" (TWICE, as she put it IIRC) is besides the point. :smallwink: It does establish that this sort of comment is only new in as much as Haley is being open about it and no longer hiding it under a blanket of insecurities. But I get the feeling that's not what is being complained about here. :smalltongue:

[jere7my]

I just want you to understand that for some of us, this is the problem.* To explicitly point out something irrelevant to the plot simply to have done so is condescending and makes it seem less normal, not more. If Bandana's sexual preference came up in pursuit of the plot I'd have no problem with it. If you mentioned in the forums or on Twitter that Bandana was gay without it being in-strip I'd have no problem with it. But when you say that a gay character is so noteworthy it needs to be pointed out, you're simultaneously implying that no unspecified character is gay because if they were you'd have mentioned it.

Things that are normal are not noteworthy. Things that are noteworthy are not normal. Which one do you perceive homosexuality as? I think it's normal, and therefore not noteworthy.

* A very very small problem that wouldn't be worth pointing out except that we nitpick everything anyway.

If a character is fighting an owlbear and mentions that they have an uncle who used to have an owlbear head on their wall, do you say, "Why even bring up the uncle if it's not relevant to the plot? Having an uncle is normal! Mentioning it makes it sound like it's worthy of special note—so now we can only assume that NONE of the other characters have uncles! It's normal to have an uncle, and for that reason nobody ever ever mentions them in passing!"

Secondary question: if someone's uncle had an owlbear head on the wall, would we be able to tell it wasn't just the head of a giant owl?

[Porthos]

I agree with your point, but gosh golly that case was upsetting. I'm so glad that we can chalk it up to early installment weirdness, because Durkon encouraging Haley to take 20 so he could leer at her was not a good joke. (I know, I know, parody, but it still wasn't good.)

Specifically a parody over the then recent Janet Jackson Super Bowl Hafltime Show "controversy" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy). I've never bothered to check the dates, but I presume it was made within days of that so-called "controversy".

That it possibly hasn't aged that well (especially as people forget the source of the parody) simply reinforces your point. :smallwink:

[The Giant]

Things that are normal are not noteworthy. Things that are noteworthy are not normal. Which one do you perceive homosexuality as? I think it's normal, and therefore not noteworthy.

Homosexuality is normal. Depictions of fictional homosexual characters where their sexuality is merely incidental to their role in the story, rather than being the sole reason for their inclusion, are not normal. They should be, they will be, but right now they are not. Pretending they are means you're acting like the problem is already fixed, which impedes the actual fixing of said problem.

Not one person complained when Lien mentioned her heterosexuality, and yet it, too, has no bearing on the plot whatsoever. Nobody accused me of shoehorning in her reference to losing her virginity, or shoving something in the story where it doesn't belong. No one ever complained that Tsukiko displayed heterochromia, despite it never being a plot point (and heterochromes being far less common in the real world than gay people). Heck, no one negatively responded to the fact that Bandana is also bi-racial, a fact that was introduced in the same strip and has exactly the same likelihood of being a plot point! No, everyone who's always clutching their pearls over my supposed violation of Sacred Writing Principles only ever seem to care when it's about LGBT issues; I can introduce literally any other demographic fact about any character in the most blunt way possible and no one ever minds.

I think "forced" is the new "deus ex machina" or "filler," in that it almost exclusively used by readers who are actually unhappy about something other than the thing they are saying they are unhappy about (in those cases, that I successfully surprised them and that I don't update enough, respectively). And like with those two phrases, I am done engaging people over it. You think it's forced? I believe the appropriate phrase is, "Sorry not sorry."

[stsasser]

Bandana's Dating Adventures,


Spinoff! :D

Right behind The Ghastly Fop as a fictional work that I want to read but will never have the chance. :smallfurious:

[Liliet]

Right behind The Ghastly Fop as a fictional work that I want to read but will never have the chance. :smallfurious:

*whispers* fanfiction... fanfiction... that's what it's for... you have a chance to WRITE it

[Jasdoif]

I could be wrong, but I don't think that Golems are typically proficient with anything except natural attacks, barring one or two specific examples.Crystal golems (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psionKiller.htm), in particular, only attack with their fists, even if ordered to use a weapon.

...what? :smalltongue:

[SaintRidley]

Back in the thread that shall not be named, I made a list of incidental heterosexual moments in the comic that had no bearing on the plot (up to a couple hundred strips because I didn't have time to do the rest). Maybe I should dig up that list and complete it, for the sake of the people arguing that Bandana being gay and Haley being bi is somehow violating the rules of good storytelling.

Rich, Bandana's Dating Adventures as a spinoff or bonus content would delight me (among others) and would certainly cheese off the bigot contingent. I say go for it.

[Smoke_Rulz]

Homosexuality is normal. Depictions of fictional homosexual characters where their sexuality is merely incidental to their role in the story, rather than being the sole reason for their inclusion, are not normal. They should be, they will be, but right now they are not. Pretending they are means you're acting like the problem is already fixed, which impedes the actual fixing of said problem.

Not one person complained when Lien mentioned her heterosexuality, and yet it, too, has no bearing on the plot whatsoever. Nobody accused me of shoehorning in her reference to losing her virginity, or shoving something in the story where it doesn't belong. No one ever complained that Tsukiko displayed heterochromia, despite it never being a plot point (and heterochromes being far less common in the real world than gay people). Heck, no one negatively responded to the fact that Bandana is also bi-racial, a fact that was introduced in the same strip and has exactly the same likelihood of being a plot point! No, everyone who's always clutching their pearls over my supposed violation of Sacred Writing Principles only ever seem to care when it's about LGBT issues; I can introduce literally any other demographic fact about any character in the most blunt way possible and no one ever minds.

I think "forced" is the new "deus ex machina" or "filler," in that it almost exclusively used by readers who are actually unhappy about something other than the thing they are saying they are unhappy about (in those cases, that I successfully surprised them and that I don't update enough, respectively). And like with those two phrases, I am done engaging people over it. You think it's forced? I believe the appropriate phrase is, "Sorry not sorry."

Post of the thread right here. All hail The Giant!

holy crap it's been years since I logged into here

[Quild]

I said something very similar in The Thread Which Shall Not Be Named, and I'll say it here again:

Would this strip, in isolation, be ANY different, story structure wise, if Crystal was a dude and Haley said, "Eeew, gross! I had much better taste in boys than him!".

Yes? No?

I think no one has trouble with Haley's line it's more... Oh wait, what am I saying, some people do. I just realized that.

My trouble was with Bandana's line, but I'm cool with the hypothesis that growing around Julio makes you think/expect that kind of thing. Especially since Haley may have mentionned a few hours ago that she had girlfriends.

Haley's answer was no problem for me.