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Rad
2007-04-01, 06:54 PM
Ok, here is a question: I'm about to take the leadership feat and (for gaming reasons) I was thinking about getting a cohort which has leadership as a feat as well. I (and the DM) am concerned about game balance there; it is nowhere said that a cohort cannot have a cohort of her own, but the increasing number of people involved looks dangerous.

1) Did we miss anything in the rules? If it matters, currently we are playing 3.0.

2) did anybody actually try that out? How did it work?
Thank you.

Fawsto
2007-04-01, 07:53 PM
well... Is this some kind of fool's day joke?

If not: I guess it is compeltely plausible to have a cohort with leadership. Let's imagine a King, his warlord is a cohort, but he also leads an army.

This unleashes a great chain of actions taht can be very dungerous though.

I can't remember any rules on that.

ocato
2007-04-01, 08:19 PM
I believe the word is "Feudalism"

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-01, 08:24 PM
Read leadership. Taking it requires specific DM permission. So if you DM lets your cohort take it its all fine. Otherwise he can't take it. And it can get broken very easily if you allow leadership chains.

Fizban
2007-04-01, 08:27 PM
The OP has been thoroughly addressed, so here's my question:

Does anyone know of a way to get multiple cohorts, possibly of lower level than usual?

I'm thinking of how someone might have a group of elite bodyguards or similar, that are more powerful the maximum follower level, but lower than a normal cohort. Its possibly through a leadership chain, but that gets you uneven levels between them and it doesn't fit the spirit of the idea.

Jack Mann
2007-04-01, 09:53 PM
This is generally a bad idea. For one thing, it slows things down with two extra bodies on the battlefield. For another, depending on what sort of cohort your cohort has, it can become unbalanced.

Also, keep in mind that you shouldn't be choosing your cohort's feats. That's the DM's job. You just get to request the gross details (race, class and alignment). The DM does everything else.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-01, 09:54 PM
I miss Leadership being a class feature of Fighters.

Foeofthelance
2007-04-01, 09:59 PM
It depends really on how you use it. It does in small way slow things down, but I've been in a party where every one had leadership chains at level 12, and I was even abusing the Draconic Leadership loop hole to have more powerful NPCs around.

It can slow things down, depending on how its used. We had close to a thousand followers by the time I was done (it had been left to me to craft everything, as long as I OK'd a few things with the DM beforehand, mostly item purchases and PRCs) but they didn't really do anything, except provide crews on the ships and serve as a sort of mobile field hopsital. Instead we each took one or two chohorts or more powerful followers and had cohorts act as summoned creatures for Initiative purposes.

If you do do this, the biggest suggestion I can give you is to try and make sure you know what your extra characters are doing before your turn comes around, and try to make sure they are simple ones at that, like fighting, healing, or blasting. Leave the tricky stuff to the players, and have the lower level followers do all the behind the scenes work they can.

Tallis
2007-04-01, 10:07 PM
The OP has been thoroughly addressed, so here's my question:

Does anyone know of a way to get multiple cohorts, possibly of lower level than usual?

I'm thinking of how someone might have a group of elite bodyguards or similar, that are more powerful the maximum follower level, but lower than a normal cohort. Its possibly through a leadership chain, but that gets you uneven levels between them and it doesn't fit the spirit of the idea.

Seems like something you'd just need to get DM approval for, though taking several lower level cohorts instead of one high level one seems reasonable if you match the CR (1 CR 8 cohort would equal 2 CR 6 cohorts for example).

Foeofthelance
2007-04-01, 10:12 PM
Actually, easiest way to pull it off would be to get the Leadership score up high enough tp have several 6th level followers, but thats get tricky, and becomes somewhat useless at higher levels.

Does anyone remember what the trick was that did that by the way? (I swear I'm not building a Item based Pun-Pun, I swear! Though Bracelet of Friendship is rather useful after a certain point...)

Mewtarthio
2007-04-01, 10:34 PM
The OP has been thoroughly addressed, so here's my question:

Does anyone know of a way to get multiple cohorts, possibly of lower level than usual?

The Thrallherd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm) PRC is based around duplicating Leadership by... "calling" certain mentally-malleable people to his side. The Thrallherd gets a "cohort" (called a "thrall") with a maximum level of one greater than a normal cohort, a bonus to his effective Leadership score equal to his Thrallherd level, and a capstone ability that grants him a second "thrall." Both thralls are completely loyal to you, and can be sacrificed without penalty (a new one shows up by the next day).

Rad
2007-04-02, 02:10 AM
Thank you all for the answers; The cohort chain aim was to get a sword knight, a rose knight and a crown knight in dragonlance. We are using the revised PrCs so only the sword knight would be a caster and he is my main character as well; the cohorts mainly provide melee fighters (and the rose knight a couple of morale bonuses) so playing them on the battlefield should not be an issue.

Ah, and as it has been pointed out, the 50 or so 1st level followers are useful in non-combat situations but one of our encounters could easily wipe them out in no time, so I guess that hardly counts in combat balancing

The thing we are more concerned about is game balance, especially since we neer used any Leadership feats and now two characters (me and the mage) are getting it; this campaign has been going on for years and we'd hate to skrew it up or havie to make backwards changes later.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-02, 02:24 PM
It was a mistake by wizards to tie leadership to a feat or to print it in the PHB, it gives people completely the wrong impression. It's an extra character allowed by DM fiat, usually allowed because the number of players is too small, which just happens to also take a feat slot. It's not an ordinary feat, don't treat it as one. You get an extra PC in the party as far as balance is concerned, it's that simple (I know thrallherd gives you two thralls in the end for two dropped manifester levels, but that PrC is ridiculously overpowered to start with).

With a full party it will slow down combat, and it's not like combat needs slowing down in D&D.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-02, 02:26 PM
I've always allowed the feat, but I've never allowed the cohort to take it. Cohorts simply scream "plot hook!".

Fax Celestis
2007-04-02, 02:28 PM
It was a mistake by wizards to tie leadership to a feat or to print it in the PHB, it gives people completely the wrong impression. It's an extra character allowed by DM fiat, usually allowed because the number of players is too small, which just happens to also take a feat slot. It's not an ordinary feat, don't treat it as one ...

With a full party it will slow down combat, and it's not like combat needs slowing down in D&D.

Except...it's not in the PHB. It's in the DMG.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-04-02, 02:37 PM
It's listed in the PHB, but the rules for it are listed in the DMG, I believe. Seperation of powers indeed.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-02, 02:39 PM
No reason to print it in the PHB at all though, they could just have left it entirely in the DMG like improved familiar.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-02, 02:46 PM
There's an odd combo where you can have infinite followers through 6'th level followers having enough leadership to have 6'th level followers, who then have leadership, etc. Amusingly, they have better followers than cohorts.

Thank god it doesn't work because of DM fiat :D.

Foeofthelance
2007-04-02, 02:55 PM
Actually, I'm sort of interested in how it works. I know a DM who would lt me get away with it, only because it would amuse him to come up with an in game response beside good old Rocks Fall.

Drider
2007-04-02, 03:36 PM
There's an odd combo where you can have infinite followers through 6'th level followers having enough leadership to have 6'th level followers, who then have leadership, etc. Amusingly, they have better followers than cohorts.

Thank god it doesn't work because of DM fiat :D.

Don't cohorts have a max lvl of yours -3? so you could only have a single lvl 6 character, who had leadership to get a lvl 3(if they had enough leadership points), and at lvl 9+ having that is'nt worth the extra time it'd take to make them do stuff.

Jack Mann
2007-04-02, 03:41 PM
Ah, but followers don't have that restriction.

Rad
2007-04-02, 03:45 PM
Don't cohorts have a max lvl of yours -3? so you could only have a single lvl 6 character, who had leadership to get a lvl 3(if they had enough leadership points), and at lvl 9+ having that is'nt worth the extra time it'd take to make them do stuff.

They have a max level of your lvl -1. Their level is not always that high, but if you have a good charisma it can go as far.

Foeofthelance
2007-04-02, 03:52 PM
Actually, I think 3.5 reduced the maximum level of a cohort to ECL -2. Which is what makes it amusing with the chain, is you end with a group of sixth level followers, who are all more powerful then your level four cohort.

Rad
2007-04-02, 04:08 PM
Actually, I think 3.5 reduced the maximum level of a cohort to ECL -2. Which is what makes it amusing with the chain, is you end with a group of sixth level followers, who are all more powerful then your level four cohort.

You're right... another change in the rules. So it is your level -2.

Rad
2007-04-02, 04:10 PM
about the chain... for a 6th level character to have 6th level cohorts would be needed a +15 to leadership score... how is he getting that? Cha 40 at level 6?

McDeath
2007-04-02, 04:41 PM
Ah Leadership...my sorcerer is taking this in three levels time, when we should hopefully have finisheed cleaning out and refurbishing our dungeon. The reason? Dungeons need staff. Cleaning out bodies, storing the stuff off adventurers, feeding the monsters, telling us when we need to animate some more skeletons...the stuff that low-level cohorts can do.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-02, 09:03 PM
The Thrallherd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm) PRC is based around duplicating Leadership by... "calling" certain mentally-malleable people to his side. The Thrallherd gets a "cohort" (called a "thrall") with a maximum level of one greater than a normal cohort, a bonus to his effective Leadership score equal to his Thrallherd level, and a capstone ability that grants him a second "thrall." Both thralls are completely loyal to you, and can be sacrificed without penalty (a new one shows up by the next day).

Combine that with psychic reformation, you can choose whatever skills & feats you want for the paltry sum of 50 xp (split between caster and recipient equally) per level!

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-02, 09:04 PM
Question about followers:
They are of NPC classes, yes?

SMDVogrin
2007-04-02, 09:28 PM
Question about followers:
They are of NPC classes, yes?

I don't believe they have that rule in 3.5 anymore, no.

Foeofthelance
2007-04-03, 12:20 AM
We ran regular PC classes for all of our followers/cohorts. I just created the first one for each group, and then used clones of that for anything else. So all Level 1 Clerics had the same set of stats, spells lists, etc. Level 1 Fighters all had the same set of stats, feat choices, and weapons. The only differences were if someone was created for a special job, such as the Orange Guard, the group of Level 6 followers who served as an honor guard for one of the PCs.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 11:43 AM
The thrallherd could be a real headache for the DM.

With 16 charisma (base 12, 4 from item, 2 from age), you get a leadership score of 23 at level 13. That means 3 level 4, 2 level 4 and 1 level 6 followers, and a level 12 thrall.

These followers aren't like regular followers- you can abuse the hell out of them. Take their stuff, sell them as slaves, keep their living limbless, still living torsos in a portable hole so you can pull them out and force them to let you take their feats and/or power points....

Matthew
2007-04-03, 07:50 PM
I miss Leadership being a class feature of Fighters.

Heh, I know what you mean, but it didn't work that way. Fighters got access to the best Followers, but everybody got access to Henchmen [Cohorts] equally, the key Attribute being Charisma.

Druid
2007-04-03, 08:05 PM
For super leadership awesomeness play a thrallherd. When you get to high enough level, have both your thralls take leadership (or better yet, make your thralls thrallherds as well to get two cohorts a piece), then have their cohorts take leadership and so on down the line. That's not enough followers, so then have every level 6th level follower you've managed to gather up take leadership as well. Congratulations, you now have an army of (mostly) useless minions!

Arbitrarity
2007-04-03, 08:43 PM
Crud, can't seem to find it.

Ah, here's one:

I've created a build that grants an excessive number of followers:

A single level 20 character with the Leadership feat can have one 17th level cohort, but that cohort can have the Improved Cohort feat (from Heroes of Battle) to have another cohort of 16th level. One could repeat this process all the way down to 7th level for a final 6th level cohort and a total of 13 characters all eligible for followers. By building these cohorts carefully, once can also maximise the amount of followers offered to each. I don't even own Stormwrack, so I'm not going to pretend that I know how to optimize their leadership score properly without access to the leadership bonus offering prestige class in there. I'm sure others have gone much further, but I've achieved 6,702 followers.

Assuming that this 20th level character has over 6,000 loyal followers, he can accomplish much. All of his followers are part of a special religious order that has Great Renown for their Fairness and Generosity. They have Special Powers within political structures, and maintain a great degree of support through their massive network of Strongholds. These circumstance bonuses are normally arbitrated by the DM, but since they don't even have a block of fluff anywhere (much less crunch) defining as to how these bonuses are to be distributed, I feel no remorse in abusing them in this fashion. The total bonus is, of course, +5

Note: I would rather accomplish this without needing to resort to the above (i.e., by feats, build, and the like only, and not iffy circumstance bonuses), but I don't have enough splat-books.

We then take one of the 6th level followers and build him thusly:
Age & Race: Venerable Half-elf (Elite Array)
Charisma: starting 18 (due to venerable), increase to 19 at 20th level.
1. Aristocrat (or any other class): open
2. Half-elf Paragon: open
3. Half-elf Paragon: Ecclesiarch
4. Half-elf Paragon: +2 Cha
5. Human Paragon:
6. Human Paragon: Leadership, Extra Followers

This gives us a charisma of 21 (+5). With Ecclesiarch, Extra Followers, and the ambiguous circumstance bonuses provided above we have a leadership score of 19 (6 base +5 cha +3 from feats +5 from circumstance). With Extra Followers, our man takes 10% of his followers wealth in the form of tithing for a total of (when combined with his own wealth) 13,320 gold pieces. He then turns to his 4th level artificer follower and asks him to craft a cloak of charisma +4 (the Artificer can do this without spending any personal XP at all so long as he has a UMD check of +12 or higher: easily attainable by 4th level). This boost his leadership score by 2, to a 21.

Once he hits a leadership score of 21, he acquires a 6th level follower (2 actually), who is, of course, a venerable half-elf.

By following this process, one could achieve a great number of followers, only limited by the number of available 6th level venerable half-elves.

Now, infinite followers of useful levels 6 (you have 2, extra followers), 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, makes for some interesting combos. I.e., you can make any build within those levels.

Note that you are allowed 6'th level followers at level 6, but only a 4th level cohort.

Rad
2007-04-04, 07:54 AM
For super leadership awesomeness play a thrallherd...


actually, I don't want to get super-leadership. I was worried that the feat could be breakable (as it has been proved by the infinite chain) and was asking whether in your opinion the thing that I was going to do (2 cohorts total) was going to break the game...

Thank you all for the considerations that keep coming!:smallsmile:

PinkysBrain
2007-04-04, 05:24 PM
I was worried that the feat could be breakable
How can anything which requires DM fiat be breakable? Is it unbalanced, you bet ya ... but not breakable, because the DM can simply say "no that cohort can't take leadership" by the RAW. A houserule where the DM simply says "I allow leadership as a normal feat with no strings attached" is breakable.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-04, 10:45 PM
If you read the flavor text for cohorts, it's implicit that leadership chains shouldn't work.