The Marshal Revitalized

[Seerow]

Yep, I'm back again with another revitalized class! This time I took my shot at revitalizing the Marshal Class. Unlike many of my other Revitalization efforts, this one took fairly significant overhauls, simply due to lack of features in the class to start with. You should still see everything you liked about the original marshal, but now with extra features to fill in the blanks and give the class a more active commanding feel. The goal here was to make the Marshal more formiddable both on the tactical small group scale and on the strategic General of Armies scale.

This class is a first draft being worked on at 2 in the morning, so there may be some inconsistencies in formatting, bad typos, or strange design decisions. You have been warned! Any and all feedback is appreciated.



The Marshal



Level BAB Fort Ref Will SpecialMinor AurasMajor Auras


1 +0 +2 +0 +2 Major Aura+1, Command, War Leader's Insight21


2 +1 +3 +0 +3 Master Diplomat31


3 +2 +3 +1 +3 Measured Strike41


4 +3 +4 +1 +4 Major Aura +242


5 +3 +4 +1 +4 Command42


6 +4 +5 +2 +5 Leadership52


7 +5 +5 +2 +5 Focus Aura62


8 +6 +6 +2 +6 Defender's Insight, Major Aura +363


9 +6 +6 +3 +6 Command63


10 +7 +7 +3 +7 Commander's Aura73


11 +8 +7 +3 +7 Demoralize Enemy83


12 +9 +8 +4 +8 Major Aura +484


13 +9 +8 +4 +8 Command84


14 +10 +9 +4 +9 Improved Leadership94


15 +11 +9 +5 +9 Disruptive Aura104


16 +12 +10 +5 +10 Major Aura +5105


17 +12 +10 +5 +10 Command105


18 +13 +11 +6 +11 Grand General115


19 +14 +11 +6 +11 Strategic Adjustment125


20 +15 +12 +6 +12 Command, Legendary Commander, Major Aura+6126


Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: The Marshal's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance(Dex), Bluff(Cha), Concentration(Con), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Forgery(Int), Gather Information(Cha), Handle Animal(Cha), Heal(Wis), Intimidate(Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge[History](Int), Knowledge[Geography](Int), Knowledge[Nobility and Royalty] (Int), Knowledge[Local] (Int), Listen(Wis), Profession(Wis), Ride(Dex), Sense Motive(Wis), Spot(Wis), Survival(Wis), Swim(Str), and Tumble(Dex)
Skill Points per level: 6+Int Modifier
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Marshals are proficient with all simple weapons, and also with the Shortsword, Handaxe, Longsword, Warhammer, Glaive, Guisearm, Halberd, and Ranseur. Marshals are proficient with Light and Medium Armor, and all shields except tower shields.

Class Features
Auras(Ex)
The marshal exerts an effect on allies in his vicinity. He can learn to produce different effects, or auras, over the course of his career. The marshal may project one minor aura and (starting at 2nd level) one major aura at a time.

Projecting an aura is a swift action. The aura remains in effect until the marshal uses a free action to dismiss it or activates another aura of the same kind (major or minor). A marshal can have an aura active continually; thus, an aura can be in effect at the start of a combat encounter even before the marshal takes his first turn.

Activating an aura involves haranguing, ordering, directing, encouraging, cajoling, or calming allies. A marshal sizes up the enemy, allies, and the terrain, then gives allies the direction that they can use to do their best. If the situation calls for it, the Marshal may use hand signals instead of verbal orders to provide direction to allies.

Unless otherwise noted, a marshal's aura affects all allies within 60 feet (including himself) who can hear the marshal. An ally must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher and be able to understand the marshal's language to gain the bonus. A marshal's aura is dismissed if he is dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard or understood by his allies.

A marshal begins play knowing two minor auras and one major aura of his choice. As his marshal level increases, he gains access to new auras as noted in the table above.

Minor Aura
A minor aura lets allies add the marshal's Charisma bonus (if any) to certain rolls. This bonus is capped by the Marshal's level. The bonus provided by a minor aura is a Competence bonus that will not stack with any other competence bonuses.


Accurate Strike- Bonus on rolls made to confirm critical hits
Demand Fortitude- Bonus on Fortitude saves
Determined Caster- Bonus on rolls to overcome spell resistance
Force of Will- Bonus on Will saves
Healer’s Resolve- Bonus to healing recieved. This includes any kind of rest and any use of heal, but not fast healing or regeneration.
Master of Mobility- Bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity
Master of Opportunity- Bonus to hit on attacks of opportunity
Master of Tactics- Bonus on damage rolls when flanking
Motivate Charisma- Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks
Motivate Constitution- Bonus on Constitution checks and Constitution-based skill checks
Motivate Dexterity- Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks
Motivate Intelligence- Bonus on Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks
Motivate Strength- Bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks
Motivate Wisdom- Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks
Over the Top- Bonus on damage rolls when charging
Stalwart- Bonus to armor class against critical hit confirmations.
Watchful Eye- Bonus on Reflex saves

Major Aura
A marshal can project a major aura in addition to his minor aura. A major aura lets allies add +1 to certain rolls. This bonus improves by +1 at 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, as noted on the table above. The bonus provided by a major aura is a Morale bonus and will not stack with any other morale bonuses.


Grant Strength- Bonus to Strength.
Grant Dexterity- Bonus to Dexterity
Grant Constitution- Bonus to Constitution
Grant Intelligence- Bonus to Intelligence
Grant Wisdom- Bonus to Wisdom
Grant Charisma- Bonus to Charisma
Hardy Soldiers- The marshal's allies gain DR/- equal to 2x the major aura bonus
Inspire Courage- Bonus on Attack Rolls, Damage Rolls, and saves vs Fear.
Inspire Arcana-Bonus to caster level equal to 1/2 the major aura bonus.
Motivate Care- Bonus to Armor Class
Motivate Resistance- Energy resistance (Fire, cold, acid, or electricity, chosen when the aura is activated) equal to 5 x major aura bonus.
Motivate Urgency- Allies' base land speed is increased by a number of feet equal to 5 x the major aura bonus
Motivate Potency- Bonus on save DCs of ally’s spells and abilities equal to 1/2 the major aura bonus.
Motivate Vigor- Fast healing equal to twice the major aura bonus, but only affects allies at or below one-half their full normal hit points.
Resilient Troops- Bonus on all saves


Command(Ex)
A Marshal can issue Commands that provide a short term tactical advantage for himself or his allies. A Marshal may issue a command once per day per point of intelligence modifier plus Marshal level. A Marshal begins with Hustle, Commander's Strike, and one additional command from the list below available. At 5th level, every 4 levels thereafter, and at level 20, the Marshal learns one additional command of the highest level available, and one command of a lower level.


Hustle- A Marshal can motivate his allies to act immediately, granting his team an immediate tactical advantage. When the Marshal issues a Hustle command as a Standard Action, he grants one ally within range of his Auras a Move Action. The Ally may take this action immediately without affecting their place is the initiative order. The affected ally gains a bonus to AC equal to the Marshal's Charisma modifier until the start of their next turn.
5th level- The Marshal can use hustle as a Move action.
9th level- The Marshal can use hustle as a Swift action, or affect all allies within range as a Standard.
13th level-The Marshal's hustle can affect all allies as a Move Action
17th level-The Marshal's hustle always affects all allies as a Swift action

Commander's Strike- A Marshal can motivate his allies to take an attack immediately, granting his team a powerful offensive advantage. When the Marshal issues a Commander's Strike command as a Standard Action, he grants one ally within range of his Auras an Attack Action. The Ally may take this action immediately without affecting their place is the initiative order. The affected ally gains a bonus to their to-hit roll equal to the Marshal's Charisma modifier on the granted attack.
5th level- The Marshal can use commander's strike as a Move action, and also adds charisma modifier to damage rolls.
9th level- The Marshal can use commander's strike as a swift action, or affect all allies within range as a Full Round Action.
13th level- The Marshal's commander's strike can affect all allies as a Standard Action.
17th level- The Marshal's commander's strike can affect all allies as a Move Action.


Level 1:
Enhance Aura- As a swift action you can increase the bonus granted by any minor aura you have active by 2, or any Major aura you have active by 1, for a number of rounds equal to 3+ your charisma modifier. In the case of a Major aura, this counts as improving your Major Aura bonus, so any Major Auras that are a multiple of that bonus are increased normally.
Flanking Maneuver- As a swift action you may select one enemy within range of your auras. The enemy makes a Will Save DC10+1/2 Marshal Level+Cha Mod, if they fail all allies treat that enemy as if they were flanking until the end of your next turn.
Shift Opportunity- As an immediate action when an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity from an ally, you may allow any other ally who is capable of attacking the provoking enemy to take the attack of opportunity instead.
Shifting Tactics- You can change all auras as a free action once per round for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your charisma modifier.
Stand- As an immediate action you can allow one prone ally within range of your auras to stand as a free action that does not provoking attacks of opportunity.


Level 5:
Create Opening-As a part of an attack, before rolling to hit, you may issue a command as a free action. If you successfully hit, all other allies who threaten the target may take an attack of opportunity against that target, with a bonus to hit and damage equal to your charisma modifier.
Cover Fire- Use a swift action and select one ally with a ranged weapon within range of your aura. Any time an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity from you, you may allow that ally to take an attack against the provoking enemy instead. The ranged character may take a number of attacks in this way equal to your charisma modifier.
Double Minor Aura- As a swift action you can project one minor aura for a number of rounds equal to your 3+ your charisma modifier. This extra aura may be changed to another aura of the same type as a swift action, as normal.
Insightful Defense- You can spend a swift action when you make a War Leader's Insight check to identify an enemy. If successful, you grant all allies within range of your auras a +1 insight bonus to AC and Saving Throws against the enemy identified for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your charisma modifier. For every 5 points your Insight check beat the DC necessary to identify the creature, this damage is increased by 1d6.
Insightful Offense- You may Spend a swift action when you make a War Leader's Insight check to identify an enemy. If successful, you grant all allies within range of your auras a 1d6 bonus to damage against the enemy identified for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your charisma modifier. For every 5 points your Insight check beat the DC necessary to identify the creature, this damage is increased by 1d6.

Level 9:
Double Major Aura- As a swift action you can project one extra major aura for a number of rounds equal to your 3+ your charisma modifier. This extra aura may be changed to another aura of the same type as a swift action, as normal.
Grant Feat- As a standard action you may grant a fighter bonus feat to one ally within range for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your charisma modifier. The ally must meet all prerequisites for this feat, and no individual ally may be granted more than a single feat.
Hardiness- Requires: Motivate Vigor. As a standard action you can inspire a single ally currently affected by your Motivate Vigor aura to gain temporary hit points equal to the DR granted by the aura times your charisma modifier.
Haste- As a standard action you may provide the effects of a Haste Spell to allies within range of your auras for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your charisma modifier.
Shake it Off- As an immediate action when an ally fails a saving throw against an ability that inflicts a status effect, you may grant that ally a second save against the effect, with a bonus equal to your charisma modifier.
Vigorous Command-Requires: Motivate Vigor. As a standard action you can inspire all allies who are currently affected by your Motivate Vigor Aura to regain hit points equal to the fast healing granted by the Aura times half your Charisma Modifier (minimum: 2). Unlike the aura, hit points gained from this command are not capped at 1/2 max hp.

Level 13:
Celerity- As a swift action you can grant a single ally within range of your auras an extra swift action, that lasts until the end of their next turn.
Ignore Energy- Requires Motivate Resistance. As a standard action you can make all allies currently affected by your Motivate Resistance aura immune to energy damage of the same type as your aura for 3 + charisma modifier rounds, or until the Aura is changed, whichever occurs first.
Mental Fortitude- As a standard action you can provide the benefits of a Mind Blank spell to all allies within range of your auras for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your charisma modifier.
Moment of Freedom- As an immediate action you can provide an ally affected by your Motivate Urgency aura the benefits of the Freedom of Movement until the end of their next round.
Undying Resolve- As a standard action you can provide the benefits of a Death Ward spell to allies within range of your auras for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your charisma modifier.

Level 17:
Arcane Empowerment-Requires Inspire Arcana. As an immediate action when an ally within range of your aura casts a spell, you can allow the caster to spontaneously apply one metamagic feat with a +2 or lower base adjustment that they know to the spell for free. The spell's effective spell level (including the free metamagic added by this ability) can not exceed your Charisma Modifier.
Lockdown- As a standard action you can cause your allies to lock the battlefield into position. For 1 round per point of charisma mod, all forms of movement (including 5ft step and withdraw actions) provoke attacks of opportunity from your allies, and an enemy successfully hit by an opportunity attack provoked this way has their movement canceled, as though affected by the Standstill feat.
Steel Soul- Requires: Hardy Soldiers. As a standard action you can inspire a single ally currently affected by your Hardy Soldiers aura to gain the benefits of the Iron Body spell, with the exception that the DR granted by the effect stacks with the DR granted by your Aura. This benefit lasts for 3 + your charisma modifier in rounds, or until the Hardy Soldiers aura is changed, whichever occurs first.
Tactical Superiority Select an ally within range of your auras. As a swift action, you can cause her initiative count to immediately change to your initiative count –1. She then acts on her new initiative count as normal. If she has already acted in the current round, she can act again. If this maneuver would not change your ally’s initiative count, it has no effect. If she has not yet acted during this round, her initiative count changes, and she acts on that count as normal. She does not act again on her original initiative count.

War Leader's Insight(Ex)
The Marshal can make a special knowledge check with a bonus equal to his Marshal class level in place of any knowledge check involving battle on a small or large scale. This may be used to identify creatures, gain information about battle formations, draw out a siege plan, and so on. 5 ranks of Knowledge(History) provides a +2 synergy bonus with War Leader's Insight.

Master Diplomat(Ex)
At second level a Marshal gains a bonus equal to half their class level to Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate.

Measured Strike(Ex)
A third level Marshal gains his intelligence modifier as a bonus to hit with all melee and ranged attack rolls in place of his strength modifier, if it is greater.

Leadership(Ex)
A 6th level Marshal gains a number of loyal followers as though they had the leadership feat. The Marshal does not gain a cohort from this ability. If the Marshal takes the Leadership feat at a later time they gain a cohort and a +2 increase to Leadership score. The Marshal gains a bonus to leadership score equal to 1/4th class level. Followers gained from Leadership may not exceed half your character level, and all followers must have at least half of their character levels (round up) in NPC classes. Additionally, no follower may have Leadership, Thralls, or any other similar ability that grants them followers.

You gain a commander rating based on the number of followers you gain from Leadership if you do not already have one.

Commander Rating is a concept introduced in Heroes of Battle. A character who is put in charge of a group gains a commander rating. The rating spans between 1 and 7, with 1 being a squad leader in charge of 3-5 men, and 7 being a general in charge of 5000+.

Characters with a Commander Rating gain a Commander Aura. This aura provides bonuses to all allies within 30ft of the character. Thus a Marshal at 6th level gains a Commander Rating depending on how many followers he gets from Leadership, and then gains a new aura he can project, in addition to his normal Marshal Auras.

Focus Aura(Ex)
Starting at 7th level, the Marshal can choose to provide special attention to an individual, making one of their auras have a greater effect on that individual. As a swift action the Marshal may focus their aura on a single creature within the aura's range, that creature gains a 50% increase to the effects of the aura (round down). All other creatures within range of the aura lose the benefits of that aura. This remains in effect until the Marshal spends a swift action to revert the aura to normal. The Marshal may choose the change the recipient of the focused aura as a swift action. The Marshal may not focus an aura upon himself.

Defender's Insight(Ex)
A Marshal of 8th level uses his insight into enemy movements and tactics to defend himself from attacks. While wearing medium or lighter armor, the Marshal can choose to forego his dexterity bonus to armor class and gain his dexterity modifier as an insight bonus to AC.

Commander's Aura(Ex)
Starting at 10th level, all of your followers gain benefits of a commander aura you qualify for, even when you are not within 30ft of them. Followers above first level may grant this commander aura to any creatures within 30ft of them placed under their command, as if they had that commander's aura themselves.

Demoralize Enemy(Ex)
As a standard action, an 11th level Marshal may make an intimidate check that affects all enemies within 30ft. If the Marshal's War Leader's Insight bonus is higher than their intimidate bonus, they may choose to use that instead.

Improved Leadership(Ex)
A 14th level Marshal is no longer capped at 25 for leadership score, as if he had Epic Leadership. The number of followers gained from Leaderhship is doubled.

Disruptive Aura(Ex)
Starting at 15th level, a Marshal may project an extra Major or Minor Aura as a Disruptive Aura. The aura projected may not be an aura already being projected normally. A Disruptive Aura has its effects reversed. Rather than providing a benefit to your allies, the Disruptive Aura applies its normal bonus as a penalty to enemies within range. An enemy that comes within range of your Disruptive Aura for the first time may make a Will Save with a DC equal to 10+1/2 Marshal Level+Your Charisma Modifier, if the save is successful that enemy is unaffected by your Disruptive Aura and is not subject to another saving throw from the aura for 24 hours.

Grand General(Ex)
An 18th level Marshal may choose to use an additional Minor Aura in place of his usual Commander Aura. Switching from a Commander Aura to a minor aura (or back to a Commander Aura) takes a swift action. This minor aura may be shared with followers as per the Commander's Aura ability.

Strategic Adjustment(Ex)-The 19th level Marshal can spend a full round action analyzing his opponent's actions, and develop a strategy to beat it. After taking the full round action, the Marshal spends a command point to make a War Leader's Insight check, with a DC equal to the enemy's CR+10. If the Marshal is successful, they choose one ability, feat, or spell the target possesses. The ability chosen is rendered useless for the 3+your charisma modifier rounds. An enemy that has been affected by this ability once may not be affected again for 24 hours. (Note for the purpose of this feature, "Spellcasting" is not a valid ability selection, but a specific spell, such as "Haste" or "Fireball" is).

Legendary Commander-A 20th level Marshal gains the Legendary Commander feat as a bonus feat, multiplying her followers by 10.



New Feats

Improved Aid Another
Prerequisite: Int 13
Benefit: The bonus from your Aid Another action is doubled. You may make Aid Another attempts as an attack action or swift action. Any ally that you aid gains the benefit of your aid until the start of your next turn against all enemies.

Unit Leader
Prerequisite: Improved Aid Another, BAB+6
Benefit: When aiding allies, they gain the Aid Another bonus to both Attack Rolls and Armor Class. When you use the Aid Another action you may provide the bonus to one additional ally within your reach for every 3 points of BAB possessed.

[i]Improved Commander Aura[/b]
Prerequisite: Commander Rating 2
Benefit: You may add 1/2 your Charisma Modifier to any flat numerical bonuses granted by a Commander Aura. Additionally, if you have any levels in a class that grants auras, the radius of your commander aura expands to match your other Auras, if they are better.

The Lazy Lord
Prerequisite: Marshal 5, Intelligence 13
Benefit: You may use your Commander's Strike command as though you were a 1st level Marshal without expending a daily use of your command ability.

The Laziest Lord
Prerequisite: Marshal 13, Intelligence 15, The Lazy Lord
Benefit: You may use your Commander's Strike command as though you were a 9th level Marshal without expending a daily use of your command ability.

Expert Tactician
Prerequisite: Marshal 5, Intelligence 13
Benefit: You may use your Hustle command as though you were a 1st level Marshal without expending a daily use of your command ability.

Tactical Genius
Prerequisite: Marshal 13, Intelligence 15, Expert Tactician
Benefit: You may use your Hustle command as though you were a 9th level Marshal without expending a daily use of your command ability.

Enduring Commands
Prerequisite:: Command special ability
Benefit: Any command you issue with a duration of 3+cha modifier rounds lasts instead 6+cha modifier rounds.

Concentrated Command
Prerequisite: Command special ability
Benefit: If you issue a command with a duration measured in rounds, on subsequent rounds you may spend an action (of the same type used to activate the command) to reissue the command, without expending a daily use of your Command ability. Once you stop reissuing the Command, the Command's duration begins as normal.

Expanded Repertoire
Prerequisite: Marshal level 4
Benefit: You learn one additional command per 4 marshal levels you possess. Every time you level up you may choose to trade out one command gained from this feat for another command available to you.

Extra Commands
Prerequisite: Command special ability
Benefit: You gain 4 extra daily uses of your Command ability.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take the feat, you gain 4 more uses of your Command special ability.

Master Commander
Prerequisite: Extra Commands, Marshal level 9
Benefit: At the end of an encounter, you regain 1/2 your intelligence modifier in daily uses of your Command ability.

Double Minor Aura
Prerequisite: Double Minor Aura command
Benefit: You may always project an extra minor aura, without having to expend a daily use of your Command ability.

Double Major Aura
Prerequisite: Double Major Aura command
Benefit: You may always project an extra major aura, without having to expend a daily use of your Command ability.

Demotivator
Prerequisite: Disruptive Aura
Benefit: You may choose to turn one additional aura into a disruptive aura.

Extended Auras
Prerequisite: Major Aura bonus +2
Benefit: The radius of your Auras is doubled.

Empowered Aura
Prerequisite: Major Aura bonus +3
Benefit: Your Major Aura bonus is increased by +1

Extra Auras
Prerequisite: Major Aura Bonus +1
Benefit: You gain an additional aura known.

Selfish Commander
Prerequisite: Focused Aura
Benefit: You may target yourself with a focused aura.

Tactical Leader
Prerequisite: Focus Aura special ability
Benefit: You can target one additional ally with a focused aura.
Special: When changing the target of a focused aura you may change all allies currently affected by the Focused Aura. You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you may affect one more ally with focused auras.

Final Push
Prerequisite: Major Aura Bonus +3
Benefit: As a swift action, you may choose one aura you have active. That auras benefits are doubled until the start of your next turn. At the start of the next turn, that Aura is deactivated, and you may not activate a new aura in its place until the end of the encounter.

[Almarck]

I like the idea of passive auras in general and wish d&d and pathfinder strove to support this game mechanic more.

Anyways thoughts in light of your concerns.

Aura bonuses should be treated as morale bonuses or penalties. They are examplary and nonmagical so that rules out quite a great deal of types. However the fact they are seeminglybased on the Marshalls own ability to project his willpower indicates morale is likeliest choice.

I feel that intelligence doesn't really do enough/might stretch the Marshall too thin. Int is obviously important but it'll be fighting for priority with the physical attributes since I assume this class will likely want to stay close to allies to project aura and that means dex, con, and strength if yiu want to bash heads.

Commands obviously need some individuals of prerequisites system. Dividing them into levels is a good thing. Lock out the more powerful ones until later. I will say for consistency you may want to have them run on charisma.

Also leadership might need clarification. Is the 1/4 bonus based on being a martial applied before or after the other bonuses?

[nonsi]

All in all, seems ok.

One thing that feels out of place is Inspire Arcana.
I just don't see how a battlefield commanded can do that.

At what rate do command points replenish? I'm assuming daily, but you should note this.
Also, for better readability, you might wanna consider categorizing commands according to their action cost.

Notice that Enhance Aura applied to Inspire Arcana is broken.

Grant Feat: it doesn't say if you can grant a feat you do not possess.
If you can, then Marshal 1/Fighter X is always better than Fighter X+1, because you gain a floating feat. With high-Int, you gain multiple floating feats daily.

[Seerow]

I like the idea of passive auras in general and wish d&d and pathfinder strove to support this game mechanic more.


I'm a fan of them as well. A few years back I started working on an "Auramancer" class who gained lots of auras and gained new and interesting ways to use them... but I wound up really overcomplicating it, and eventually abandoning it.


Aura bonuses should be treated as morale bonuses or penalties. They are examplary and nonmagical so that rules out quite a great deal of types. However the fact they are seeminglybased on the Marshalls own ability to project his willpower indicates morale is likeliest choice.


Being mundane doesn't rule out as many bonus types as you might think. Sure it will definitely rule out things like Enhancement. But Competence, Circumstance, and Insight all make perfect sense as mundane bonus types.

My reasoning for keeping the bonus type for major and minor separate is because there can be some overlap there, and it makes sense to be able to stack a major and minor that provide bonus to a similar thing. For example the +AC aura and +AC against crits. Or +Hit/Damage aura and +damage against flanked targets. But making a general "A marshal's aura can stack with other marshal auras" will break the game very quickly. My solution was to make minor and major auras different bonus types.


I feel that intelligence doesn't really do enough/might stretch the Marshall too thin. Int is obviously important but it'll be fighting for priority with the physical attributes since I assume this class will likely want to stay close to allies to project aura and that means dex, con, and strength if yiu want to bash heads.


Fair point I intended for Marshal to be on the low end for personal damage. The int to hit lets them maintain a decent attack bonus without strength, and they rely on their auras, commands, and allies rather than personal strength for providing damage. Similarly they get heavy armor, not much need to move around a lot themselves, but abilities to increase mobility if desired, so don't need a lot of dexterity.

I am trying to aim for Int ~ Cha > Con > Dex~Wis~Str. Probably not right on the money yet, but if Int and Cha are making the marshal seriously consider go for lower physical stats, I'm in the right ballpark at least. If it's not quite there yet, I can probably toss in a couple extra features at the major aura levels that key off Int/Cha to boost their relative values further.


Commands obviously need some individuals of prerequisites system. Dividing them into levels is a good thing. Lock out the more powerful ones until later. I will say for consistency you may want to have them run on charisma.


Yeah I'm almost certainly going to add the level prereqs.

Any ideas how to incorporate cha into action granting commands? Particularly Coordinated Strike and hustle. I guess I could do something like "Up to cha mod in allies may take an attack", but past 3-4 that's irrelevant for most characters. But giving everyone attacking a bonus like is granted for the single target version of the ability would be pretty overpowered.


Also leadership might need clarification. Is the 1/4 bonus based on being a martial applied before or after the other bonuses?


Probably after, but are there any non-additive bonuses that make the order in which its applied actually important?


One thing that feels out of place is Inspire Arcana.
I just don't see how a battlefield commanded can do that.


Why not? You are inspiring an individual to push themselves farther than they believe possible. You're not giving them more raw magic, you are encouraging them to push themselves harder than they believe possible. It doesn't seem any more out there to me than any other aura bonus. If anything the energy resistance aura is far less believable.


At what rate do command points replenish? I'm assuming daily, but you should note this.
Also, for better readability, you might wanna consider categorizing commands according to their action cost.


Wow and that is the sort of thing that comes from posting at midnight, I never even realized I didn't put a resource refresh rate. Yes daily is what was intended.

And I may categorize by action cost, we'll see how cluttered it looks after separating them by level. I'll probably be making that update tonight.


Notice that Enhance Aura applied to Inspire Arcana is broken.


Enhance Aura applies a +1. At a full half of your levels it won't provide a bonus at all. Even if you manage to get another +1 to your major aura from somewhere (I think there's feats or magic items out there for that) to get up to a +8 major aura, that's giving a +4 caster level... which happens to be exactly what a Bard is capable of granting through their spells. Now combining that with Focus Aura to get up to a +6 caster level for a single individual may be a bit too much, I'll have to look into what other options are available to see.


Grant Feat: it doesn't say if you can grant a feat you do not possess.
If you can, then Marshal 1/Fighter X is always better than Fighter X+1, because you gain a floating feat. With high-Int, you gain multiple floating feats daily.


It was intended to allow for a feat you don't possess. I probably should write more clear restrictions in there (specifically making sure it is a feat they qualify for), and I'll go ahead and bumped it up to a higher level ability to avoid the dip potential. My Revitalized Fighter has a series of floating feats, this will probably come online at a similar level to when it gets its first floating feat (Fighter gets it at 7, so Marshal will probably grab it at 9).



Thanks for the feedback!

[Almarck]

In that case. Competence should be for Minor auras, Morale should be for Major auras. Might as well keep the bonuses distinct enough.

By the way, how does a morale bonus to intelligence work?


Anyways, if you are going to want to encourage Intelligence, I think you might want to put "Intelligence In Place of Strength for attack rolls" and "half this for damage rolls. 2 handed weapons use your full intelligence bonus." Maybe even go so far as to encourage Intelligence in place of Dexterity or in addition to it as a dodge bonus.

Hm, actually, maybe you should have Con drop down in priority to let Dex take 3rd slot. Then drop the armor proficiency to medium.

You're supposed to be playing a commander, no need to bring maximum full plate into it, especially if (since strength is the lowest priority)you lack the strength to wear it.



In the case of (Cha) allies. I think maybe you can spend "points" reducing the number of allies to boost the bonuses a single ally gets would be a good

[Seerow]

By the way, how does a morale bonus to intelligence work?


Same way a competence bonus to intelligence checks works? *shrug*


Anyways, if you are going to want to encourage Intelligence, I think you might want to put "Intelligence In Place of Strength for attack rolls" and "half this for damage rolls. 2 handed weapons use your full intelligence bonus." Maybe even go so far as to encourage Intelligence in place of Dexterity or in addition to it as a dodge bonus.


Adding Int bonus to other things is definitely on the table. Not quite sure about AC, but providing it to damage or other things is a possibility.


You're supposed to be playing a commander, no need to bring maximum full plate into it, especially if (since strength is the lowest priority)you lack the strength to apply it.


Standard Marshal has heavy armor and shield proficiency. I don't see a particularly compelling reason to drop that.


In the case of (Cha) allies. I think maybe you can spend "points" reducing the number of allies to boost the bonuses a single ally gets would be a good


So something like with a +6 cha mod, if you're affecting 3 allies grant a +3 bonus on their attacks? That could work.

[Almarck]

So, no, I was wondering in the event the bonus ever let you get more Skill points. It probably doesn't, but it's still quite funny.

Anyways. I was thinking of adding INT as a dodge bonus was that it'd help really set the class to focus having Int as a primary stat.


The reason I was thinking of scrapping the heavy armor was that, well, if Strength is a low priority, then heavier armor by default would take up more weight than it otherwise would. Especially since Dexterity is higher up in value than strength is, but that's minor come to think of it since it's competing for the least valuable stats.

You aren't simply playing a fighter that can make auras after all (at least, not any more), which is the idea I had when I was looking at the class at first glance years ago. Dropping heavy armor thus makes sense to differentiate it, but I guess for traditions sake, it still could keep it.

[Amechra]

Commands should be given level prerequisites; the one that jumps out at me is Haste.

Haste is a really strong combat buff; giving it to all allies within 60ft at level one for [3 + Charisma] rounds [1 + Int] times per day is kinda... ridiculous. For comparison, the actual Haste spell can't target someone 60ft away unless you Enlarge it or cheese up your CL, and you are capped at [CL] people when you cast the spell.

Seriously, that's +30' to all movement speeds, an extra attack on a full attack, +1 to hit, AC, and Reflex Saves.

Or give an ally an attack with a potential +7 to hit and damage. At level one. [1 + Int] times per day. Sure, I don't get an attack, but that +7 to attack and damage means that I can give that bonus to an ally with a higher damage potential than I have; why not give the Barbarian whose rockin' Whirling Frenzy an extra attack with a huge bonus? Or give the Rogue another sneak attack?



Regarding the actual class features:

Measured Strike is an outright nerf when you first get it; it's worded so that you're forced to use your Intelligence modifier, even if you somehow got a big bonus to Strength (say an ally casts Bull's Strength on you, and you're using Motivate Strength with Empower Aura; that's a +6 bonus to Strength right there). Add in the fact that it caps your bonus from your ability score, it's kinda weaksauce as it stands.

I know you put that line in to prevent dipping... but if anyone's going to dip, it's not going to be for that. Even if it was uncapped and I was dipping around for bonuses, I'd probably go for Brains over Brawn, since it applies to Initiative.

Leadership is... oh lordy, that feat was so poorly written. Yeah, it makes them powerful, but it's a complicated, fiddly powerful, especially since they get large bonuses to their Leadership score. If I were playing a Marshal 6, I'd immediately take Leadership for the +4 bonus, I'd get a +1 for having at least 4 levels in Marshal, I'd get my Charisma modifier on top of that...

That's 6 [Level] + 5 [Miscellaneous bonuses from being a Marshal] + 2 + Charisma modifier [even being reasonable, I can can get a +6 here (15 base ability score, +1 from levels, +2 Racial bonus, +2 Cloak of Charisma, +2 from Motivate Charisma)].

That's a Leadership Score of 19; I could possibly wrangle more from feats or by paying some Bards to sing about me (Great Renown is a +2 bonus!), but that'll do. I'm a 6th level character who controls a fifth level character, two fourth level characters, two third level characters, four second level characters, and [I]forty first level characters. If I can get another +2 from somewhere, I'll control another 6th level character, who I can make a Marshal with an identical build, who then gets their own small army and another 6th level character...

So find a fix somewhere or nix this one.

Focus Aura is fine.

Commander's Aura is more-or-less fine; that "any creature placed under their command" is very abusable, though - what's stopping me from grabbing a 2nd level follower and convincing a king somewhere to make them a general (with a healthy bribe), therefor applying my Commander aura to the entire army? Or the party treating a 2nd level follower as their token commander, thus giving them the bonus wherever they go?

Demoralize Enemy is fine.

Improved Leadership... No. No. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. OK, so it's slightly less broken than "infinite army at 6th level because of stacking poorly-thought-out bonuses", but only because you capped the levels of the followers... you can still get nigh-infinite spells of 3rd level of lower as a side effect of the class feature.

Disruptive Aura is kinda cool. I like it.

Grand General is subject to the same concerns as Commander's Aura; what stops you from bribing a king to put one of your 2nd level Followers in charge of an army, therefore giving all of them a +[Charisma] bonus to their Initiative? Or doing the same to your party?

Strategic Adjustment is pretty nice, but not broken.

Legendary Commander... *sound of game balance sobbing in the corner*.



Exaggerations aside, Leadership and the feats that improve it are bad. Not in the sense of being weak - no, in the sense of them being poorly written and straight-up unbalanced. From the moment someone takes them, it changes the focus of the game from "a group of companions going on adventures" to "a group of companions going on adventures, and, oh, one of them has a massive army that will certainly be seen as a threat by any sovereign nation they pass through."

The main issue is that most of D&D's systems for modelling groups and civil infrastructure (such as the business rules, or the organization rules) were written after Leadership was. I mean, a feature that allowed you to design your own organization AND which tossed you Favored in Guild and the associated feats as you levelled would be cool. One that gave you the ability to muster a small group of peasants from a village and fashion them into a level-appropriate fighting force would be cool.

A feature that hands you an army, through no effort of your own? Not cool, from a game design perspective. I wrote a Leadership fix a while back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?269949-One-Feat-Does-not-a-Leader-Make-3-5-Feats-PEACH) that you could pick at for ideas.

[Deepbluediver]

I've been absent from the Homebrew thread for a while, but I want to bookmark this to save it in case I want to steal any parts for my own homebrew somewhere down the line.

My idea to fix the Fighter was actually to bolt a lot of the the Marshal's stuff on to his chassis (Full BAB, d10 HD, more feats, etc), and them spread it out with other options so people have a lot of choices to make about how they want to build their character. Essentially I thought that there where a fair number of superfluous classes in 3.5 that where tied to closely to a single concept, and that by combining some of them we could cut down a little on the sheer number of different classes and the complexity of multiclass builds. The classes that where then left over would be more interesting and still offer all or most of the same choice.
I can't think of anything to ADD to this version though that wouldn't take the class in another direction.


A few thoughts that I had as I was reading through things:

1) Aura based on Charisma bonus- is this the best option? I get where you are coming from in relation to tying it to a stat, but if something lowers the character's Cha or they just had a mediocre score to start with it seems to invalidate and entire class feature. It also adds to the MAD of a class that looks like it's supposed to be a melee combatant but already has a merely moderate BAB and HD.

2) Motivate Dexterity adds to initiative checks in addition to it's other stuff, while none of the other stat-auras benefit non skill-based or ability checks in that way. Maybe this would fit better in the Motivate Urgency major aura?

3) Commands- If a low level Marshall tries to add Int to his roster as well, he's now needing to stack Int, Cha, and melee-stats. Leveling up obviously decreases the need for that, but it still seems like either you spread yourself to thin or don't use this ability much until you get to level 5 or so.
3b) When do command points refresh after they are spent?

4) I'll need to check heroes of battle to figure out what Commander Aura's are- I'm not sure I have a copy of that one handy. Was it the book that described way of running large-scale battles Warhammer-style in D&D?

5) Strategic Adjustment- I really like this ability, but I think the description raises questions about exactly how it works. When you say "rendered useless" do you mean they can't use it at all? Since you used Haste as an example we'll start with that. If I target the caster, does that just mean he can't cast Haste again or will it remove it from his target? If I study the target and he's no longer hasted, what happens if the caster casts it on him again?
What about an AOE spell with a duration? What about feat-chains- can disabling the bottom rung knock out the whole stack?
Does the target have to be doing anything or could I use it on someone who is asleep?
If it only lasts 3+Cha rounds, then subsequent 24 hour immunity seems kind of like a high penalty- it reminds me of the old truism "noncasters can't have nice things".

6) Regarding ideas for more auras the only thing I can come up with atm is to have something regarding specific creature types, which would fit your requirement of "situational". Auras regarding specific terrain types might also be viable.



Originally when I started reading this I approached it from the idea that the Marshal was a melee class, but now, looking back at it's basic components like skill points, it's stat requirements, and it's overall abilities I'm not quite sure what it is. I guess I could stat it up like a Paladin if I want to actually fight, but there is a definite lean towards being the party face and skill-monkey instead. I can't decide if the options make it good or the lack of focus in any one area makes it fall prey to the same "master of none" syndrome that afflicted so many of the original 3.5 classes.


Exaggerations aside, Leadership and the feats that improve it are bad.*snip*
The idea of the Leadership feats appeals to me, if your group wants to take things in that direction, but they certainly don't fit well into every (or even most) campaigns. If a particular group wanted to build a stronghold or base of operations, then that could be very interesting but it should be handled mostly through roleplaying IMO. At the very least I'd want any player(s) to get approval from the DM first, and maybe make it something like a group feat, so you don't multiply the problem with 4x the followers.
And you certainly shouldn't be trying to drag them around with you unless a specific situation calls for it.

My other idea was to separate out the Cohort into it's own feat(s), that gave you a Commoner minion with one feat, and then used a second feat to convert it into something more useful than a pack-mule. I.e. pocket Healer, herald (Bard), Bodyguard (Fighter) at some percentage of your level.
So essentially anyone who wanted could gain a quasi-animal companion type feature with a little expenditure.

[Seerow]

Leadership is... oh lordy, that feat was so poorly written. *snip*

Improved Leadership... No. No. *snip*


Legendary Commander... *sound of game balance sobbing in the corner*.


I see your point on high level followers at low level, and can put in a cap on Leadership to limit followers to 1/2 your character level at level 6 rather than at level 14 when improved leadership kicks in.

As for the rest... yes you will have a personal army. Yes you will be seen as a threat by nations on the strategic level, and your personal army will number in the hundreds, even thousands at high level. That is entirely intended. Possibly put in an explicit limitation that followers can't have access to Leadership or similar abilities to prevent stacking for absurdly large armies.


Commander's Aura is more-or-less fine; that "any creature placed under their command" is very abusable, though - what's stopping me from grabbing a 2nd level follower and convincing a king somewhere to make them a general (with a healthy bribe), therefor applying my Commander aura to the entire army? Or the party treating a 2nd level follower as their token commander, thus giving them the bonus wherever they go?


Grand General is subject to the same concerns as Commander's Aura; what stops you from bribing a king to put one of your 2nd level Followers in charge of an army, therefore giving all of them a +[Charisma] bonus to their Initiative? Or doing the same to your party?


Sorry, I will update this to be more clear. The intent was that while the Marshal gets the special ability to share his commander aura (and later a Minor Aura) with all of his followers, Commanders Auras typically have a range limitation of 30ft. So sure, if the King decides to follow one of your followers, the king and allies within 30ft will get the benefit of that aura, but that won't extend to all of the King's followers. Hope that clears it up.




Or give an ally an attack with a potential +7 to hit and damage. At level one. [1 + Int] times per day. Sure, I don't get an attack, but that +7 to attack and damage means that I can give that bonus to an ally with a higher damage potential than I have; why not give the Barbarian whose rockin' Whirling Frenzy an extra attack with a huge bonus? Or give the Rogue another sneak attack?


Giving an ally an extra attack, while nice, isn't too out there. Druids do it from level 1. They give all allies an attack from level 3.

The bigger effect is the cha mod bonus. While a +7 cha mod is pretty out there, I can see where it could be pretty strong especially at level 1. Maybe restricting the bonus to cha mod or level, whichever is higher? Or making it apply to hit with a higher level command that adds damage as well?


I know you put that line in to prevent dipping... but if anyone's going to dip, it's not going to be for that. Even if it was uncapped and I was dipping around for bonuses, I'd probably go for Brains over Brawn, since it applies to Initiative.

I'll clean up the wording to allow you to use strength if its better. I guess 3 levels may be deep enough to not be worried about dipping, I originally had it around 1 or 2 before pushing it back. The double restriction may be too much.







So, no, I was wondering in the event the bonus ever let you get more Skill points. It probably doesn't, but it's still quite funny.


Ah, yeah. I'll specify it doesn't give extra skill points. It would technically give a caster more spells per day if you left that aura on constantly without switching or the caster leaving the aura radius, but I think I should specify that it doesn't boost that either, just to avoid the possibility.


The reason I was thinking of scrapping the heavy armor was that, well, if Strength is a low priority, then heavier armor by default would take up more weight than it otherwise would. Especially since Dexterity is higher up in value than strength is, but that's minor come to think of it since it's competing for the least valuable stats.


I'll consider it. I still think heavy armor is fitting, for tradition if nothing else, but I see your point of this marshal being far less combat oriented, to the point where a more limited armament makes sense.

[Deepbluediver]

As for the rest... yes you will have a personal army. Yes you will be seen as a threat by nations on the strategic level, and your personal army will number in the hundreds, even thousands at high level. That is entirely intended. Possibly put in an explicit limitation that followers can't have access to Leadership or similar abilities to prevent stacking for absurdly large armies.
Y'know, how much of a threat your army is depends on how powerful everyone else's army is. I know a lot of people run campaigns where the PC's are the only heroes in the land, and the NPC character-level curve isn't a pyramid so much as a flat plane with a spike in the middle.

I prefer a version of things where most adults average out at around 3rd-6th level (albeit mostly in NPC classes), but anyone up to 10 or with PC levels isn't super-uncommon, which would make a horde of 1st level followers dangerous but not in a world-conquering sort of way.

[Almarck]

Hm, thinking about. Maybe as a "replacement" for leadership in settings or for GMs who can't handle it ( I know for a fact that I don't know how to handle it at all), maybe you should allow the Marshals to have a "Squad" of "warband" of followers as an option.

Essentially, a "Warband" is a large, huge, or potentially bigger group of much less lower leveled followers that ultimately are so weak and inconsequential on their own (and too tedious to manage all of them)), they have to be treated as though they were a big amorphous "swarm" monster in order to impact battle.

When a "warband" is reduced to 0 hitpoint, it turns into the next smallest group, until it goes to medium, then it totally dies. Hitpoints might be weird, but it's mostly morale anyways.

Give Marshalls some options to customize their warband's equipment (ranged weapons, maybe there's weaker wizards involved, maybe more armor) and you'd be good to go.

If you think a warband is too powerful, just have the Marshall spend actions to direct it.

Granted, admittedly, such a rule would probably be quite complex, it'd arguably be much easier to figure out and have the DM account for (without outright vetoing it) than Leadership is.
Plus, as far as I am aware, there's no cap on to how many creatures an aura can benefit, so, the warband can be used to help things out in that front.

[Seerow]

Hey Deep Blue, long time no see.


Originally when I started reading this I approached it from the idea that the Marshal was a melee class, but now, looking back at it's basic components like skill points, it's stat requirements, and it's overall abilities I'm not quite sure what it is. I guess I could stat it up like a Paladin if I want to actually fight, but there is a definite lean towards being the party face and skill-monkey instead. I can't decide if the options make it good or the lack of focus in any one area makes it fall prey to the same "master of none" syndrome that afflicted so many of the original 3.5 classes.


Yeah this class's focus is less on being a primary melee combatant and more on being support. Rather than a Fighter, think of it as a Bard with Commands and Auras in place of Spells and Bardic Music. This reaction makes me lean more towards stripping down the weapon and armor proficiencies some to help avoid the confusion.


2) Motivate Dexterity adds to initiative checks in addition to it's other stuff, while none of the other stat-auras benefit non skill-based or ability checks in that way. Maybe this would fit better in the Motivate Urgency major aura?


Well initiative is an ability check, explicitly. It's kind of hard to have motivate dex without having it apply to init without being awkward. Also Motivate Strength gets to apply to Bull Rush/Trip, which is a similarly weird bonus.


4) I'll need to check heroes of battle to figure out what Commander Aura's are- I'm not sure I have a copy of that one handy. Was it the book that described way of running large-scale battles Warhammer-style in D&D?


Yeah, that's the book. I'll add a sidebar with a brief description. Basically everyone gets a commander rating between 0 and 7 depending on how many characters are under your command. 0 is you're on your own, 7 is you're a general with 5000+ soldiers under your command. Commanders gain a commander aura, that provides a minor bonus to people under their command within 30ft.

Some examples include Grant +1 Morale bonus to armor class, +5ft to move speed, +1d6 damage to AoOs. A lot of them are pretty situational (like stuff that gives bonus only to a specific race, or only to animals, etc), but there's enough general ones that you can find one you are interested in. And with the level 18 Marshal Ability you can trade that out for an extra projected minor aura.


5) Strategic Adjustment- I really like this ability, but I think the description raises questions about exactly how it works.

Yeah this one needs cleaning up. The intent is that the ability can't be used. If it is a passive ability (or a buff/debuff that has already been activated), it is suppressed for the duration. If it is an active ability, it can't be used.

[Amechra]

Grant Attack Action currently gives a bonus equal to 3 + Charisma modifier, not just Charisma modifier. And Snake's Swiftness is a good spell even though it doesn't toss a massive attack and damage bonus on your ally.


The problem with Leadership is that, unlike any other game-changing abilities in the game (like, say, spellcasting), it auto-screws with the balance of power in game. It also puts a lot of book-keeping on the DM. It's not that having an army is bad, exactly, it's that having an army automatically with no effort on your part and doing so in an incredibly clunky way is bad.

Plus, having 40 1st level characters at your beck-and-call is strong enough to make the not-having-higher-level-followers limit more-or-less pointless. Not only will they slow down initiative like woah if you bring them into a fight (I've played in combats with 15 creatures total before; one go around the table took an hour. I shudder to imagine 40+ creatures.), but even if you do... you can build 1st level characters like disposable cruise missiles if you know what you're doing - Barbarians are especially good for this.

Imagine, if you will... 40 1st level Wizards with Magic Missile. 40d4 + 40 force damage that can't miss against any level appropriate threat! That's 80 - 200 damage, disregarding what you do on your turn, your cohort, and any other followers you care to involve. Heck, wasn't there a Commander Aura that added damage to spells*?


The clarification on Commander's Aura clears that up; thanks.



* Bloodthirsty Commander would be a +1 damage as long as the creature has been wounded; Pursuing Commander gives +1d6 damage against Frightened or Panicked enemies.

[Almarck]

Oh, I think I just remembered something: temporary bonuses (which is what the aura is even if you decide to use it forever) do not apply to increasing Spellcasting, nor do they grant skill points, so that's technically a non-issue. It's like getting a barbarian to have permanency enhanced enlarge cast upon him; the bonus is easily dispelled or suppressed, his actual size is not the size that the spell makes him, but his actual size.

So, technically, if my remembering of the rules is correct, it's not really an issue to have spells per day or retroactive skill-points come into effect when using the Int boosting major aura, like how it is with "Fox's Cunning" enabled permanency shenanigans.

Also, I made a post about the same time you posted, in case you missed it, about a leadership replacement.

[Deepbluediver]

Hey Deep Blue, long time no see.
Yeah, I moved on to other hobbies for a while. I would still work on stuff just for gits and shiggles but I never got up the motivation to actually post any of it, especially since I wanted to re-revise my magic system first.


Yeah this class's focus is less on being a primary melee combatant and more on being support. Rather than a Fighter, think of it as a Bard with Commands and Auras in place of Spells and Bardic Music. This reaction makes me lean more towards stripping down the weapon and armor proficiencies some to help avoid the confusion.
Ok, that makes sense. In the grand scheme of things I'm not sure I would want to play this class as opposed to other gishy classes then, since as nice as the auras and commands are, passive abilities fall in the "powerful-but-not-interesting" category (for me at least) and the commands seem to offer only a fraction of the versatility and depth that spellcasting does.

If nothing else, then I would urge you to keep the armor proficiency at least because it's a undeniable benefit that the class gets, and lets him wade into combat if things really get dicey.
Options aren't a problem unless they are bad options at the cost of good ones.


Well initiative is an ability check, explicitly. It's kind of hard to have motivate dex without having it apply to init without being awkward. Also Motivate Strength gets to apply to Bull Rush/Trip, which is a similarly weird bonus.
Fair enough. I don't think I really like Initiatives being purely a dexterity check, but that's probably a debate for another time.



Hm, thinking about. Maybe as a "replacement" for leadership in settings or for GMs who can't handle it ( I know for a fact that I don't know how to handle it at all), maybe you should allow the Marshals to have a "Squad" of "warband" of followers as an option.
I really want to discuss Leadership, but I don't want to derail Seerow's thread either. If I make a new thread for this topic, would you (and anyone else) be willing to shift over there?

[Seerow]

Grant Attack Action currently gives a bonus equal to 3 + Charisma modifier, not just Charisma modifier. And Snake's Swiftness is a good spell even though it doesn't toss a massive attack and damage bonus on your ally.


Lmao that's an awesome find and replace error.

I was going through changing all my durations from cha mod rounds to 3+cha mod rounds. Must have bumped up the bonus for the bonus attack at the same time by accident. Not intended.

And yes, it is a good spell. Mostly good because it is easily wandable, giving a backup damage option better than a CL1 magic missile when there's nothing better to do with your higher level spells. What do you think about the suggestion of dropping it down to just cha mod, and capping at level? So you're not getting a +4 to hit and damage at level 1.


Plus, having 40 1st level characters at your beck-and-call is strong enough to make the not-having-higher-level-followers limit more-or-less pointless. Not only will they slow down initiative like woah if you bring them into a fight (I've played in combats with 15 creatures total before; one go around the table took an hour. I shudder to imagine 40+ creatures.), but even if you do... you can build 1st level characters like disposable cruise missiles if you know what you're doing - Barbarians are especially good for this.


If you are fighting on a wide open plain where your followers can be brought to bear, and you don't mind using them as glass cannons, and slaughtering themselves wholesale to deal a bit of extra damage, then yes, it is quite powerful. In a normal adventuring situation that's not going to happen, and in a campaign where players do want to play it like that, Leadership was already an option. The Marshal does not seriously outpace the baseline feat in this regard until level 14, by which time any level appropriate threat can mow over an army with a flick of the wrist. You have a problem with the Leadership feat and have gone to great lengths to rewrite it into a dozen feats for your own purposes. That's fine. I am not going to go down that particular rabbit hole here.





Hm, thinking about. Maybe as a "replacement" for leadership in settings or for GMs who can't handle it ( I know for a fact that I don't know how to handle it at all), maybe you should allow the Marshals to have a "Squad" of "warband" of followers as an option. *snip*


I've run games with something similar to this for large groups of enemies (squads of ~50 soldiers stated out as around CR8-9 swarms), my main problem is that would basically turn your army into an animal companion type deal, ie something that is very obviously intended to be used in normal combats. Whereas my intent here was an army that gets involved if you have strategic level battles come up, but in tactical scale combat you go in alone with your group of similarly elite friends.

We can keep trying to tack restrictions on leadership followers to make that more of a reality (for example something like "at least half of your follower's levels [round up] must be in an NPC class", which cuts down on spellcasting shenanigans significantly), but if you want to discuss a full leadership overhaul that can and should be another thread to itself.


Yeah, I moved on to other hobbies for a while. I would still work on stuff just for gits and shiggles but I never got up the motivation to actually post any of it, especially since I wanted to re-revise my magic system first.


Well glad to see you back anyway.


Ok, that kind of makes sense. In the grand scheme of things I'm not sure I would want to play this class then, since as nice as the auras and commands are, passive abilities fall in the "powerful-but-not-interesting" category (IMO) and the commands offer only a fraction of the versatility and depth that spellcasting does.

Yeah I've been talking about expanding the range of Commands, but it won't ever hit quite the same level as even Bard casting in terms of versatility. In exchange though some of the effects gained are quite powerful for their level. I've also been trying to make managing the passive auras a bit more interesting with stuff like Focus Aura, Enhance Aura, and Disruptive Aura.


If nothing else, then I would consider keep the armor proficiency at least because it's a undeniable benefit that the class gets, and lets him wade into combat if things really get dicey.
Options aren't a problem unless they are bad options at the cost of good ones.

Well if I cut down to Medium Armor, I'd probably go with the earlier suggestion of letting Int replace Dex while wearing medium armor, giving Int a bit more use, and keeping AC more or less the same, possibly a bit higher. But while the capability would be similar, it would shake that initial feeling of seeing "All Weapon and Armor Proficiencies" and expecting a Fighter. It's a psychological deal that I'm noticing from multiple people posting.

[Seerow]

Okay starting to work on an update now. This is the list I have of things I'm planning to go through and change. I'll edit this (or post again if someone posts between) when it's done.

Make Int more valuable
-Lift restriction on int to hit.
-Drop armor to medium, restrict weapon list
-Add Int to AC

Leadership
-Cap Leadership followers at 1/2 character level.
-Cap Leadership follower class levels at 1/2 character level
-Clear up Commander Aura/Grand General, specify range limit. [Add sidebar describing commander auras]

Commands
-Set level prerequisites
-Fix Commander's Strike (grant attack action)
-Make Cha affect all Commands in some way.

Auras
-Clarify benefits of Grant Intelligence
-Specify your Disruptive Aura can not be an aura you are already projecting normally.


If there's anything big I missed, let me know. I know the Leadership thing is still contentious, but this keeps you from getting access to followers with 3rd level spells until you are level 20, and even then only if you have a leadership score of at least 47. Which is rough even with the bonus and if you take the feat.

[Amechra]

Alright, I'll ignore the Leadership stuff (because you and I are never really going to agree on that point.)

Capping stuff by level is clunky; it gives a disincentive to having a high initial Charisma modifier (because that's a score that could be better "spent" on Dexterity or Constitution), making it harder to buy up later. What if you gave the Minor Auras a class-based bonus progression? Something like, say 2 + 1/2 Class Level?

Then, base Commands off of your Charisma modifier - maybe focus more on enabling actions instead of specific bonuses. One idea would be for Commands to give you a "pool" of actions - you spend X points to give someone else a Swift action, Y to give them a Move action, Z to give them a Standard action... then hand out an "action cap" for individual creatures.

Maybe at first you can only give out actions if they wouldn't get those actions normally - let a flatfooted character take an attack of opportunity or use an Immediate action, let a Nauseated character take a Standard and a Move action, give actions to Dazed character etcetera. Then, ramp it up as you go along; spend points to let people take two Standard actions instead of a Standard and a Move action, let them take a Move action instead of a Swift or Immediate action, and so on and so forth.

There should, of course, be some limit so you can't just point to the Wizard and go "your turn is now three Standard Actions" - perhaps limit it so that "improved" actions can't be used for non-Extraordinary abilities, which later improves to allow Supernatural abilities and Spell-Like abilities.

[Deepbluediver]

Before I rant for a bit, let me ask you- what was your original goal when you set out to start working on this class? What were you aiming for or what are we comparing this to?
(you already mentioned the bard equivalent, I'm just curious if you could expand on it further)


Well if I cut down to Medium Armor, I'd probably go with the earlier suggestion of letting Int replace Dex while wearing medium armor, giving Int a bit more use, and keeping AC more or less the same, possibly a bit higher. But while the capability would be similar, it would shake that initial feeling of seeing "All Weapon and Armor Proficiencies" and expecting a Fighter. It's a psychological deal that I'm noticing from multiple people posting.
The problem is that in D&D specialization seems to win out of being a generalist. If you have three class, A with a 2 in fighting and a 0 in spellcasting, B with a 0 in fighting and a 2 in spellcasting, and C with a 1 in fighting and 1 in spellcasting, people tend to gravitate towards A and B. And from everything I've seen and read and done, in terms of pure-power perspective they are "right". In order to make a class attractive mechanically you end up needing to give it more like a 1.5 in fighting and spellcasting or it won't compare favorably to it's purebred brethren.

That's why when I looked at the Marhshal I said to myself "Ah-ha! Here's something I can slap on to the Fighter's framework to give him something in ADDITION to hitting stuff with a sword.
Now, obviously what I consider to be good is not the same as what anyone else considers to be good. I decided that ultimately I liked Tier 3 for power but more of 2 Tier for versatility.

With what you've written here, even if you pick and choose your Auras and Commands, it still feels kind of limiting. Somehow (I'm not being entirely clear here, it's just kind of a gut-feeling). Let me ask you this- the Marshal still gets the basic feats all classes get from leveling up, so what does he spend them on? If you kept the full armor and weapons maybe he could be a heavier melee brawler, at least defensively, but since he doesn't have spells all that really kind of leaves is skill monkey. And while the Marshal's skill list is good, it's not great. I feel like you'd still need a rogue in the party, and even if you let him dump the social stuff so he could focus on disabling traps, what you'd end up with is 2 versions of Int-specialized half-monkey-half-fighter classes.

I don't want to seem overly critical- this is all coming from a direction of what I would want to see, so take it with a grain of salt.


I'd probably pick one stat- Int or Charisma, and let that be his focus in addition to melee stats, or dump any concept of a heavy brawler at all. Take Light armor and make him more Rogue-like.
I feel like the commands are heading in the right direction, but maybe they don't go far enough- rather than just buffing up your allies, I feel like they should let the Marshal do other things as well.

Here are a few examples of the things my never-posted Fighter/Marshal mash-up could do (I called them Special Tactics as opposed to Commands)
Interrupting Shout- interfere with spellcasting, attack rolls, and spellchecks
Devastating Shout- Sonic-damage breath weapon, basically (inspired by Skyrim)
Spectral Swap- switch places on the Battlefield with an ally (inspired by chess and DotA).
Reverse Blunder- undo missed attack, failed save, failed Skill-check (inspired by golf)
Dungeoncrasher- I modified this to be a base class option instead of replacing feats


Like I said, you need to make what works for you, but these are just some things to think about.

oh how I've loved long, off-topic, rambling posts[/sigh]



Alright, I'll ignore the Leadership stuff (because you and I are never really going to agree on that point.)
I made a thread if we want to continue this discussion elsewhere:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392848-Leadership-when-where-and-how


Capping stuff by level is clunky
Not that clunky, IMO, and it can be effective to prevent people from dipping several classes to get unbalanced bonuses. It works for things that are unique to a given class, because it ties in to how good you are AT WHAT THAT CLASS IS GOOD AT. I used it in my Rogue fix a few times for defensive stuff.

For my Fighter/Marshal though, I did make the relevant bonus modifiers entirely dependent on level so as to cut down on the MAD and to keep tighter control over it. I think you can make it work both ways.

[Seerow]

Okay I made the updates specified.

Regarding Commands, I don't want to go quite as far as what you suggested in your post Amechra, but I did take the idea of it to heart. I made some lower level versions of grant attack action so it scales up so you get better benefits and requires fewer actions from the person getting the bonus actions.

Level 1-Grant an attack action to one ally with cha to damage, recipient must spend a swift action to take the attack.
Level 1-Grant a move action to one ally
Level 5-Grant an opportunity action to one ally with cha to hit.
Level 5-Grant a move action to all allies.
Level 9-Grant a free action attack with cha to hit and damage.
Level 9-Succeed on an attack, grant an opportunity action to allies with cha to damage.
Level 13-Grant a free action attack to multiplies allies with cha to hit.



I am deliberately staying away from granting full standard actions or swift actions, because that way lies madness. I'm honestly scared to even include a White Raven Tactics style command, though it would be super fitting.


Also right now I have a good array of 1st, 5th, and 9th level commands, but almost nothing at 13 and 17. Any suggestions for higher level commands? I really like Vigorous Command, and am thinking some other similar abilities (keying off a specific aura and granting a single shot heightened benefit of it) would be a good place to start. Probably also something similar to Inspire Greatness, granting a handful of bonus hit dice, wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Amechra]

The reason I believe capping bonuses by level is clunky is because, straightforwardly, it shows that what you really want is to add your level to something (to encourage people to stay in), but that you don't want to commit to getting an eventual +20 to whatever.

It's lazy; it shows that you can't think of a tempting enough bonus for people that stay in (and no, raising a cap isn't a tempting bonus; it's a tax.) The reason that the Paladin's +[Charisma] to saves, or the (original) Marshal's +[Charisma] to Dexterity or Charisma checks are so dip-frendly is because you don't have any higher level class features that make you want to stick around, not just because they're big bonuses.

[Seerow]

Before I rant for a bit, let me ask you- what was your original goal when you set out to start working on this class? What were you aiming for or what are we comparing this to?
(you already mentioned the bard equivalent, I'm just curious if you could expand on it further)


Basically I see the Marshal as a heavily support focused class. When I imagine a Marshal on the field, I am seeing him managing his auras to adapt to the current situation, spending actions barking commands, and generally stepping into melee as a last resort. He's competent in that area, but mostly because he benefits from the buffs he grants others. Much in the same way that an optimized Bard can be a powerful combatant, but a Barbarian being backed up by an Optimized Bard is much scarier.

Or to put it in the terms you laid out later, I see a Marshal as a 2 in Support, while a Fighter should be a 2 in fighting, and a Fighter with Marshal style features would be a 1 in support and 1 in fighting.


Let me ask you this- the Marshal still gets the basic feats all classes get from leveling up, so what does he spend them on? If you kept the full armor and weapons maybe he could be a heavier melee brawler, at least defensively, but since he doesn't have spells all that really kind of leaves is skill monkey. And while the Marshal's skill list is good, it's not great. I feel like you'd still need a rogue in the party, and even if you let him dump the social stuff so he could focus on disabling traps, what you'd end up with is 2 versions of Int-specialized half-monkey-half-fighter classes.

I can see that problem. It's kind of the same problem the Bard faced in core, except he at least had spells so could tie into metamagic feats.

As it stands I could see the Marshal going into tripping/control; he has the reach weapon proficiencies and the int for Combat Expertise. He would be in the thick of things, but be there to control the flow of battle, rather than deal damage himself.

I could also see a Marshal taking a back lines approach with ranged weaponry. His 60ft radius aura gives him at least as much freedom to move around as a ranged rogue with 30ft sneak attack while still affecting his allies, and the Int to hit applies to ranged weapons as well, while he gets a fair bit of bonus damage from auras and commands.

Of course as you already pointed out you could dump his feats into non-combat things/skills. They get enough capability by default to not have to worry about blowing a ton to keep up.

Also there are feats that improve/modify auras in the game already, in Miniatures Handbook and a couple other places. Potentially worth taking.

Also, right now Int provides bonus to Hit, AC, and #Commands. If you're willing to live with fewer commands per day, you could go strength and still be the bruiser you want... it's just going to comprimise your leadership ability. That's where the "1 and 1" instead of "2 and 0" comes in, but it is an option.


Even so I do agree there should be more. Particularly some more feats tying into the Commands subsystem. I kind of want to do a feat or two that lets you grant attacks without wasting a commander point, true to the 4e Lazylord style. An "Extra Commands" feat that gives more command points, feats to grant more Commands/Auras Known, make them more powerful, allow extra aura projections, reduce action cost for specific commands... all are things that should exist. I will probably start writing feats to complement the class soon-ish. Maybe that will help?

[Seerow]

Note: I did remove the cap on int to hit, and decided against the cap on cha for attack actions.

[Deepbluediver]

I am deliberately staying away from granting full standard actions or swift actions, because that way lies madness. I'm honestly scared to even include a White Raven Tactics style command, though it would be super fitting.
mmmm....Nope. Messing with the action economy is something that I totally want to see high-level characters doing. Or at least I want to give them that option. IMO, something like Time Stop isn't the "rocket" in rocket-tag, but it's what turns rocket-tag into nuke-tag. I think that with the right adjustments it can be workable, and this would seem like a great place to give action-economy bending stuff to melee-users.

If nothing else, as Amchera mentioned it's a great incentive to stick with a single class.


The reason I believe capping bonuses by level is clunky is because, straightforwardly, it shows that what you really want is to add your level to something (to encourage people to stay in), but that you don't want to commit to getting an eventual +20 to whatever.
Noooo, it shows that I want to add +stat to some calculation but have concerns about dipping.

At least the way I design things different classes tend to add different stats to different things (or in some cases the same stat to different things). And while +4 for a low level character isn't gamebreaking when it's to one stat, I'm not looking to let people easily multiclass an unbalanced SAD build.


It's lazy; it shows that you can't think of a tempting enough bonus for people that stay in (and no, raising a cap isn't a tempting bonus; it's a tax.) The reason that the Paladin's +[Charisma] to saves, or the (original) Marshal's +[Charisma] to Dexterity or Charisma checks are so dip-frendly is because you don't have any higher level class features that make you want to stick around, not just because they're big bonuses.
Can't it be both? Not every campaign runs the full 20 levels.
What I see this method doing is allowing low level characters to feel powerful since their bonus will increase every level, and somewhere around levels 4-7 it transitions to be more dependent on the relevant stat instead as other additional class features come into play. It's a way to avoid overloading at level 1 while still keeping stuff important at level 10.

It's important to me that the class be interesting at ALL levels, not just as a stepping stone to level 20.


Basically I see the Marshal as a heavily support focused class. When I imagine a Marshal on the field, I am seeing him managing his auras to adapt to the current situation, spending actions barking commands, and generally stepping into melee as a last resort. He's competent in that area, but mostly because he benefits from the buffs he grants others. Much in the same way that an optimized Bard can be a powerful combatant, but a Barbarian being backed up by an Optimized Bard is much scarier.
As it stands I could see the Marshal going into tripping/control; he has the reach weapon proficiencies and the int for Combat Expertise. He would be in the thick of things, but be there to control the flow of battle, rather than deal damage himself.

I could also see a Marshal taking a back lines approach with ranged weaponry. His 60ft radius aura gives him at least as much freedom to move around as a ranged rogue with 30ft sneak attack while still affecting his allies, and the Int to hit applies to ranged weapons as well, while he gets a fair bit of bonus damage from auras and commands.

Ok, fair enough. I could see that working out and it resolved my concern about not having enough to do.

I still think you should reconsider giving the marshal back Heavy Armor, though. There are always the armor proficiency feats, yes, but I think most people agree they are kinda lackluster. When I was homebrewing I took steps to make them more attractive all around, but if I was playing this class in a mostly-standard setting I'd probably dip Fighter for a level or 2 rather than spend a feat that way. Unless I was absolutely certain we where going to spend a significant amount of time right at level 20.


Or to put it in the terms you laid out later, I see a Marshal as a 2 in Support, while a Fighter should be a 2 in fighting, and a Fighter with Marshal style features would be a 1 in support and 1 in fighting.
The more you try to squeeze stuff into it the faster that analogy breaks down- I don't need everything to confirm to that sort of metric.

[Amechra]

Notice I never said "some great capstone that'll keep them going". Higher levels means "levels higher than the first few levels."

Like spellcasters. They're always getting something new and exciting at every odd level. Fighter? Doesn't. Marshal? Doesn't. Paladin? All their cool stuff stops at levels 4-5 (depending). Monk? None of their stuff is cool enough to keep you going.

I (vaguely) understand not wanting people to dip your class*; however, capping a bonus feels punitive.

To use a metaphor, imagine that you were being paid some amount of money for the work you did, but then your boss said they could only give you some of that because you were in X position in the company. But when you get a promotion, more of that money will get to you! Don't you feel great?


* Base classes with anti-dipping measures like capping ability score modifiers feel very weird and out of place because the original classes were always designed to enable multiclassing. You were supposed to take X levels in a Base Class and then specialize in whatever prestige classes felt appropriate; that's why you (very rarely) find PrCs that require levels in another PrC. There's also the fact that you have other tools to deal with unwanted stacking, like typing your bonuses properly or placing conditions on their functioning (much like how the Monk gets Wisdom to AC when not wearing armor, or how the Shapeshift Druid states that all of their ability score bonuses are Enhancement bonuses to prevent stacking.)


To address Seerow, rather than the off-topic argument I'm having with deepbluediver (which I feel like we've had before)...

I like those new Command ideas; why not one where you can ready an action and "donate" it to a party member? As you level, you can have it fire off more and more often. Also, when do you recover Command Points? Once per day? Once per encounter? Never? Whenever an ally sneezes?

Anyway... some Command ideas:
• Let an ally take an attack of opportunity someone provoked from a different ally.
• Pay for attacks of opportunity from your Command pool instead of from an allies' uses per round.
• Prevent an attack of opportunity made by an enemy.
• Force an enemy to provoke from an ally as an Immediate action.
• Give an ally another save against a mind-affecting ability.
• Aid Another as a swift action.
• Aid Another as a free action.
• Boost the bonus from Aid Another.
• Make an enemy count as flanked for a round.
• Prevent allies from being flanked for a round.

[Seerow]

I like those new Command ideas; why not one where you can ready an action and "donate" it to a party member? As you level, you can have it fire off more and more often. Also, when do you recover Command Points? Once per day? Once per encounter? Never? Whenever an ally sneezes?


Second time this has been pointed out, how did I miss that in my list of things to update? I'm going to go do that now before finishing reading the rest of the post.

[Deepbluediver]

Like spellcasters. They're always getting something new and exciting at every odd level. Fighter? Doesn't. Marshal? Doesn't. Paladin? All their cool stuff stops at levels 4-5 (depending). Monk? None of their stuff is cool enough to keep you going.
I assure you, this is most definitely a concern of mine. If you need proof- take a look at my revisions of the monk: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266147-Monk-Fix-2-0
Specifically, the path abilities. Some things like unarmed damage, falling distance, feats, etc, you do just get more off, but you all get a brand new Path Ability every 4 levels. There are 15 abilities, each variety of monk gets the options of 10 of them, of which they pick 5 over the course of leveling up. So lots of room for variety and replay value.
They all scale with level and vary between such things as- letting your monk wear armor, have a healing touch, restore spell levels, use telekinesis, reverse time, etc.


I (vaguely) understand not wanting people to dip your class*; however, capping a bonus feels punitive.
It IS punitive, but only if you dip lots of classes very shallowly. By level 6 and up, or even earlier, the cap has basically started to go away. I've rarely, if ever, seen someone with a build that gets a +20 stat modifier to any stat, even temporarily. If it was for something critical to a build, like a Power-Attacking fighter, then I wouldn't cap it.


To use a metaphor, imagine that you were being paid some amount of money for the work you did, but then your boss said they could only give you some of that because you were in X position in the company. But when you get a promotion, more of that money will get to you! Don't you feel great?
I'm a contract employee, which means my firm charges the client a flat rate and then gives me some fraction of that. Your analogy pretty much exactly describes the way things work.


Base classes with anti-dipping measures like capping ability score modifiers feel very weird and out of place because the original classes were always designed to enable multiclassing.
I definitely want to keep things WORKABLE for multiclassing, but I'm wary of imbalancing things on the lower end of the scale. With stat-bonuses being what they are, someone who's going half-and-half, or even dividing between 3 separate classes, won't face much, if any penalty. I'm worried about someone taking 1 or 2 levels of 5 or 6 different classes to grab a whole bunch of early-level bonuses, or making a class that is appealing for EVERYONE to take 1 or 2 levels of.

The caps are rare, and only for things that I consider absolutely necessary. They would not show up on every class or even on MOST classes.


To address Seerow, rather than the off-topic argument I'm having with deepbluediver (which I feel like we've had before)...
I don't recall you having this specific discussion with me, but it sounds like the kind of thing that would be common to discuss.


Edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to go that off-topic- I just got a little caught up in the moment.

[Amechra]

I'd be happy to discuss design philosophy in another thread (would that even go in Homebrew Design?)

Seerow - does there even need to be a resource limit on using Commands? Just tossing that out there - given that you already have an opportunity cost with them, and they aren't "burst" abilities.

[Deepbluediver]

I'd be happy to discuss design philosophy in another thread (would that even go in Homebrew Design?)
I'd say it fits better there than anywhere else, but I'll message you in a minute.


Seerow - does there even need to be a resource limit on using Commands? Just tossing that out there - given that you already have an opportunity cost with them, and they aren't "burst" abilities.
Yeah, the command-points struck me a bit odd too, but I didn't really have any better ideas. I feel like maybe some things need a limit and others don't, given how they vary a bit in power and overall usefullness. For abilities where it was necessary, I've sometimes resorted to cooldowns (either in a flat number of rounds or usable every 1d6 rounds) but that can get messy if you start needing to track more than 2 at once.

[Seerow]

Okay updated the Command ability, removing the "command points" terminology, while making it clear that it is a daily resource.


why not one where you can ready an action and "donate" it to a party member? As you level, you can have it fire off more and more often

I like this idea. Full Round Action command, you choose a ready action trigger. Every time it triggers for the next round, you can grant an ally the readied action. This can go off cha mod times per round. Seems like a good 13 or 17 ability since it turns one action into potentially many, if you judge the enemy's intentions correctly. It also feels like a very Marshal thing to do.



• Let an ally take an attack of opportunity someone provoked from a different ally.
• Pay for attacks of opportunity from your Command pool instead of from an allies' uses per round.
• Prevent an attack of opportunity made by an enemy.
• Force an enemy to provoke from an ally as an Immediate action.
• Give an ally another save against a mind-affecting ability.
• Aid Another as a swift action.
• Aid Another as a free action.
• Boost the bonus from Aid Another.
• Make an enemy count as flanked for a round.
• Prevent allies from being flanked for a round.

A lot of these are good. I'm not sure how I feel about aid another commands, mostly because Aid Another is pretty weak. What I can do is bring in my Aid Another feats from my combat styles thread and add them as part of the Marshal Feats I plan to add.

All the others I really like. Adding to that some higher level things I am considering:
-Mind Blank and Death Ward as temporary buffs.
-Burst effect for Temporary HP (similar to Vigorous Command but lower level and/or more efficient)
-Burst effect for Damage Reduction.
-Burst effect to resist a combat maneuver (ie spend an immediate action, let ally say "No you're not grappling me"
-Low level commands with low action cost (swift/immediate maybe even free actions) for very specific actions (for example Stand Up)

Iffier thought: Burst Effects for Inspire Arcana or Inspire Potency that do things like empower a spell an ally is casting.


Seerow - does there even need to be a resource limit on using Commands? Just tossing that out there - given that you already have an opportunity cost with them, and they aren't "burst" abilities.


I believe yes. While yes for a lot of them you are shifting actions around, for the most part you are either multiplying actions (granting multiple actions in exchange for yours, or granting a greater action than you give up), or you are granting an improved action (bonuses to hit/damage and the like). And of course there are the buffs that are right now equivalent to low-mid level spells, and I intend to add a few more higher level options that emulate higher level buff spells (such as the aforementioned Death Ward and Mind Blank).

Basically, while the commands should be something that the Marshal can use regularly (even at level 1 he should be able to handle 1 per encounter), there should be a limit. If right now the abilities feel too weak to warrant a daily limitation, that is an indication that some of the weaker ones need to be tuned upwards to me.




Also I think I am going to provide more commands known once I finish adding in new commands. It'll end up being something like giving 2-3 to start at level 1, and then adding an extra lower level command every time you gain a new command after that. So instead of 1 command at 1 and 6 at 20, you'd have 3 at 1, and 13 at 20. Or something along those lines. Plus a line letting you trade out old commands so you don't end up with 5 different commands that are "Give up your action to grant someone else an attack" as you upgraded to each new one as it became available.



Yeah, the command-points struck me a bit odd too, but I didn't really have any better ideas. I feel like maybe some things need a limit and others don't, given how they vary a bit in power and overall usefullness. For abilities where it was necessary, I've sometimes resorted to cooldowns (either in a flat number of rounds or usable every 1d6 rounds) but that can get messy if you start needing to track more than 2 at once.


Which ones specifically feel like they don't need a daily limitation? Is it because the action trade off is poor, so having it at will feels balanced? Or is the ability itself too weak?

Tracking individual cooldowns is a major headache and I doubt I will go there. I could go for something like all commands share a cooldown, but then that leaves the Marshal with basically no active abilities while the command cooldown is going. I could drop number of uses and make it an encounter based usage, but while that would be fine for some abilities, others it would be potentially unbalancing for. Right now though daily uses feels the most right.

[Amechra]

If you have a Command that is basically a lower-level Command but better, why not just make the lower-level one scale? To use Swift Strike as an example...

At 1st level, it gives an ally the ability to make an attack as an Immediate action, with a bonus to hit equal to your Charisma modifier.
At 5th level, it adds your Charisma bonus to damage as well.
At 9th level, they may make the attack as a free action that can be taken on another creature's turn.
At 13th level, it affects every ally within 60ft instead of just one creature.

Then you don't need to come up with 3~5 names for the same effect.

I also think that Grant Move Action could be modified to be more like Swift Strike, since you can do other stuff with a move action other than, you know, moving.

Something like...

At 1st level, it gives an ally the ability to move up to their speed as an Immediate action, with a bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity equal to your Charisma modifier.
At 5th level, you may activate it as a full-round action to affect every ally within 60ft.
At 9th level, affecting every ally within 60ft only takes a Standard Action.
At 13th level, affecting every ally only takes a Move Action.
At 17th level, it always affects every ally within 60ft.

Stuff like that.

[Deepbluediver]

Which ones specifically feel like they don't need a daily limitation? Is it because the action trade off is poor, so having it at will feels balanced? Or is the ability itself too weak?
I'll have to take a more thorough look at the revised list tomorrow. Mostly I just don't want people spamming the same thing round after round- players have a bad habit of finding the most inventive ways to break limitless or infinite abilities, no matter how innocuous they might have seemed at the time of writing.


Tracking individual cooldowns is a major headache and I doubt I will go there.
Which is exactly why I DIDN'T suggest it originally.


I could go for something like all commands share a cooldown, but then that leaves the Marshal with basically no active abilities while the command cooldown is going. I could drop number of uses and make it an encounter based usage, but while that would be fine for some abilities, others it would be potentially unbalancing for. Right now though daily uses feels the most right.
Yeah, hence why I said I wasn't going to criticize since I didn't have any better ideas.

A DIFFERENT idea, albeit not necessarily better (and I hate to even cite the source), is to have some sort of Truenamer-esque Save or skill-check to determine when next or how often you can use commands. This has it's own parcel of problems, but at least it's not tracking power points command points.



If you have a Command that is basically a lower-level Command but better, why not just make the lower-level one scale?
*snip*
Then you don't need to come up with 3~5 names for the same effect.
Yes, this I definitely like. It also saves you from having to waste resources essentially re-buying the same ability over and over again when the earlier versions become obsolete.




Edit: On another note, I feel like my signature quote is coincidentally relevant to this topic. :smallsmile:

[Seerow]

Hrm... so I wanted to avoid something like that, because I like where almost all of the commands are 1-2 lines, and those are more complicated. But they are also a backbone expectation of Marshal. I mean "Grant Move Action" is literally the RAW Marshal's only class feature besides Auras.

So what if I did something like instead of bumping starting Commands up to 2-3, give them Commander's Strike and Hustle as free commands, and have them each scale like that.


I mentioned wanting a lazylord feat to give at-will commander's strike, with that in mind I could make a couple of feats that are something like:
Feat 1) Req Marshal Level 5. Use 1st level Commander's Strike without a daily use of your command.
Feat 2) Req Marshal level 9. Use 5th level Commander's Strike without a daily use of your command.
...

And so on. Could do a similar line for Hustle.

[Amechra]

That could work... though I don't think handing out a feat for every upgrade is a good idea, especially since each one would be an incremental improvement of the last one.

[Seerow]

That could work... though I don't think handing out a feat for every upgrade is a good idea, especially since each one would be an incremental improvement of the last one.

Yeah probably two feats for each, for 1 and 9 equivalents (with minimum levels of 5 and 13 respectively). I'll toy with it. But probably in the morning.

[Seerow]

Okay made updates.

1) Command now grants Hustle, Commander's Strike, and 1 additional command at level 1.
2) Hustle and Commander's strike now scale with level, providing more efficient action trade offs at higher level.
3) Added many more new commands, including at high levels. Every level now has at least 4 commands available.
4) Increased commands gained from level up to 2 every time new commands are gained, instead of 1.
4a) Considering changing up the progression here and putting in a new column on the table to simplify things.
5) Added new section for feats. Included improved aid another feats and improved commander aura feat which are not Marshal Exclusive, followed by a number of feats exclusive to the Marshal that improve Auras and Commands.

[Just to Browse]

If there is no baked-in way to reduce action economy problems that arise from having giant armies or even 5-man squadrons, the marshal will continue to be a problem.

Daily usage of command hurts versimilitude. I'm not a fan of that.

The aura bonuses are really underwhelming until level 4-5, and the minor ones can get out of hand pretty easily.

There very little utility in this class that lets it contribute to an adventure outside of what a fighter can do, unless you count follower shenanigans that will get you hit by a book.