Making a swashbuckler/musketeer?

[Alejandro]

Hey all,

Have been having great fun with 5E. For an upcoming game I am invited to play in, I am to make a swashbuckler/musketeer type PC (although gunpowder weapons are not available.)

I'm looking for tips from those more experienced than I at 5E PC design. I was planning to have a high DEX, possibly by being half-elven, and using the rapier. I was also considering multiclassing; the two things I have thought of so far are:

- into Rogue, to combine Sneak Attack with the Fighter's superiority die power that gives them advantage on the target they are about to attack
- into Monk, to get an AC of 10+DEX+WIS, so as to be a warrior that doesn't wear armor but can still function without dying.

Thoughts?

[Rilak]

Monks can't wear armour and you need 13 wisdom to become one anyway. Barbarian is a better choice if you want to walk around naked. You do need 13 STR to multi-class into one, but Rogues can still sneak attack with attacks using STR and you can use reckless attacks for advantage any time you want to sneak attack. You can also use a shield should you want one.

[Callin]

Battlemaster Fighter makes for a good Muskateer. You dont need to add Rogue, just pick a good background to roundout the concept and you are good to go.

[Madfellow]

Battlemaster Fighter makes for a good Muskateer. You dont need to add Rogue, just pick a good background to roundout the concept and you are good to go.

I'll second this. Multiclassing into rogue, monk, or barbarian doesn't really seem worth it; Battlemaster's already got everything you need.

[Alejandro]

Rilak, I don't really need STR for anything, as I will be using finesse weapons. :) I know that monks cannot wear armor, I was designing a fighter that also does not wear armor, and thought that picking up Monk would allow for that easily.

[pibby]

Rilak, I don't really need STR for anything, as I will be using finesse weapons. :) I know that monks cannot wear armor, I was designing a fighter that also does not wear armor, and thought that picking up Monk would allow for that easily.

But multiclassing for the sake of style seems such a bad idea. My advice would be to just go straight Rogue and pick up the Riposte feat if you don't think Uncanny Dodge would be enough. Ask your DM if you can wear a vest that functions as one of the Light Armors. Then you can do whatever you want from there.

[Alejandro]

Hm. Perhaps multiclassing isn't worth it in 5th after all?

[Spacehamster]

multiclassing with good rolled stats can be really good but with the extremely limited stats you get from pointbuy it can be hard.

[Person_Man]

I would also suggest strait Battlemaster Fighter or strait Rogue. Battlemaster Fighter gives you lots of attacks and cool things to do with those attacks. Rogue will give you 1 really strong attack per turn and excellent Skills. You might also want to consider Valor Bard, or you could also ask your DM for a house rule to play a strait Monk and make it Int or Cha based, which would actually make the Monk weaker.

But yeah, until you get to level 7ish, multi-classing is generally a bad idea for builds that want to use weapons (as opposed to cantrips) as their primary attack. And even then it depends on the class.

[Alejandro]

Straight fighter it is then. :) I'll just incorporate leather armor and pick up the Dueling style for the damage.

[Demonic Spoon]

Hm. Perhaps multiclassing isn't worth it in 5th after all?

Multiclassing is primarily useful for building out specific character concepts that don't really fit with a single class. It's generally better to single class if there is a single class that fits the concept. In this case, your concept is pretty much just a dex fighter as mentioned previously.

[Ralanr]

Battlemaster Fighter makes for a good Muskateer. You dont need to add Rogue, just pick a good background to roundout the concept and you are good to go.

This might be a stupid question to ask, but what is battlemaster? I don't remember reading that in the players handbook. I don't have it with me at the moment.

[Yagyujubei]

as a swashbuckler I would steer clear of monk personally since I've always thought of them as DEX/CHA characters. Personally I would MC into lore bard to get access to cutting words and vicious mockery as i find that to be a paramount aspect of swashbuckling.

the only reason i see MCing into rogue would be for cunning action and the expertise, because I also see a swashbuckler as a pseudo skill monkey so the expertise would be a nice bonus as well.

so for me personally. the best fit would be 16 battlemaster fighter/ 4 lore bard

[Person_Man]

This might be a stupid question to ask, but what is battlemaster? I don't remember reading that in the players handbook. I don't have it with me at the moment.

It's a Fighter subclass. You get a small number of combat manuevers that you can use a small number of times per Short Rest. It's not particularly powerful, so you don't see it as often as other class/sub-class combos. But it's useful for certain situations.

[Alejandro]

Fortunately our group does not care too much if something is powerful or not, and it will be fairly low level anyway, so it should not be an issue. Maybe I will try the Bard dip later, for fun.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Do consider the crossbow expert feat - pistol hand crossbow and rapier in accord is the epitome of musketeering. Assuming you don't have an actual musket.

Class-wise, while BM fighter is a good choice, you might also want to look at a Valour bard. They have the proficiencies, extra attack, and hit die to make a combatant, they're good on skills, and they let you Dashing Swordsman it up with the finest. And vicious mockery = witty duel banter.

[Ralanr]

It's a Fighter subclass. You get a small number of combat manuevers that you can use a small number of times per Short Rest. It's not particularly powerful, so you don't see it as often as other class/sub-class combos. But it's useful for certain situations.

...wow I feel stupid. Cannot believe I forgot that.

[Garimeth]

Do consider the crossbow expert feat - pistol hand crossbow and rapier in accord is the epitome of musketeering. Assuming you don't have an actual musket.

Class-wise, while BM fighter is a good choice, you might also want to look at a Valour bard. They have the proficiencies, extra attack, and hit die to make a combatant, they're good on skills, and they let you Dashing Swordsman it up with the finest. And vicious mockery = witty duel banter.

I am a huge fan of the skald, but I would say that the BM fighter is better for what he wants.

Max out dex, dueling style with a rapier, defensive dueling and medium armor master featst.

riposte, disarming attack, parry, and precision attack for early maneuvers

[Dizlag]

I'm trying to picture what a brace of hand crossbows would look like. =)

Dizlag

[Alejandro]

I'm trying to picture what a brace of hand crossbows would look like. =)

Dizlag

Very difficult to wear. :)

Incidentally, I started making the PC. GM said to use point buy in the PHB. I generated:

Half Elf Fighter

STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 13

The GM told me I was min/maxing and asked if I could do 'more of a spread'. Is this min maxed for 5th?

[Callin]

It looks fine to me. You dont have any Negatives so I dont really see why he says Min/Max. Optimized for a melee finesse fighter, sure, but not min/maxed to me. You are subject to Charms and Illusions pretty easily with having a +0 to those saves. If you wanted to up those and appease the DM, knock down Con by 1 or 2 points and put them into Int or Wis. I would pick Wisdom since I already had a character charmed to death by a Vampire once already lol.

Since you are a fighter; you get more Ability Score Increases than any other Class. Pump Dex at 4th, pick up a feat at 6th (maybe one that improves Dex), and then at 8th improve Dex again (and con if you picked a feat at 6th that improved dex as well).

Oh and take that extra point in Charisma and move it to Int to make it not a 10 and give the illusion of spreading your points out. (Unless you plan to pump Cha, if so ignore most of what I said)

[Alejandro]

Aren't half-elves slightly more resistant to charms anyway?

I made Charisma a 13 so I could multiclass into Bard if I wanted. However, maybe I will just be a straight-level Fighter, in which case I could probably adjust it more. Or be an Elf and have an even higher Dex. :)

[Madfellow]

Move a couple of points from Constitution into Charisma and see if your DM is satisfied. I can't see why he wouldn't be at that point.

[Alejandro]

It just seemed kind of awkward. I know perfectly well that the person making the sorcerer is going to maximize their Charisma, and the person making the cleric is going to maximize their Wisdom. This is because those classes rely on those for everything, so... it just seems logical to do so. A fighter expected to tank and mix it up with the enemies, especially one that isn't going to wear heavy armor, basically needs to have great Dex and Con. Right?

[Madfellow]

Yeah. Make your case to the DM and if they won't budge, a small adjustment shouldn't hurt your character too much.

[Delwugor]

I am playing a swashbuckler right now, Wood Elf R4/F1, and am having a blast. I put him together more for the fun than being optimized in combat, but in play he can be as effective as the fighter, in an open battle he tends to be even more effective.

Some of the tactics I use are:
Always look for some way to create advantage. My GM probably gets annoyed every once in a while when I ask "Can I get advantage for doing this?". Every round I look for the advantage, use terrain, acrobatics, inspiration, anything and everything is fair game.
Movement, always be on the move. You won't be able to go toe-to-toe like a fighter but fade in quick attacks and fade away work really well, especially if you gain Advantage.
Use Cunning Action often, dash and hide work particularly well.
Work with the Fighter to nail down an opponent so that you get the sneak attack damage.
Confusing attacks and tactics so that the opponents can't figure out how to stop you. I.E. the GM never knows what my character will be doing from one round to the next, heck often I don't.
Tumble, jump, swing, climb, dash, hide, throw things, climb on the back of giants (I did!). Why? because it is just fun as all get out, even if you aren't dealing large damage, everyone gets a kick out of it.

The level in Fighter is useful for the Dueling(?) extra damage, but Second Wind is very important, cause I get hit hard and often.

Oh BTW small piece of advice, never fail your Acrobatics check when tumbling through an Ogre ... it is not pretty. :smallbiggrin:

[Alejandro]

Well, I can certainly try that. :) So far though, I don't have another melee character other than possibly a cleric to work with, so I may have to stand my ground. I'm going to wear whatever armor I can to still let me apply all my Dexterity, and use the rapier-and-buckler style since that shield AC is too important to let go just because I wanted the PC to classically fence one-handed.

[Yagyujubei]

personally I think straight bar has too much magic for my vision of what a swashbuckler is. for me 4 lvls in bard is perfect because you get JOATs, expertise, extra skill proficiencies, and a few inspiration die. and you can grab some thematic spells like charm person, heroism, feather fall, silent image and then grab enhance ability, invisibility, and another spell. thats alot of value without too much investment, and you still get full MABs

[BRC]

I'm basically playing this character right now and it's been really effective for me.

Battlemaster fighter- go dex Focused. Pick up either the "Ranged" or "Defense" fighting style.

For your first feat, take Crossbow Expert for Sword-and-Pistol shenanigans.

Alternatively, lose the Crossbows. Take the "Duelist" fighting style so your rapier hits like a greatsword. and run around with a buckler (identical to any shield) in your off-hand.

Then, the first time you kill anything with feathers, pluck one out and stick it in your hat.

Edit: Ah, you've already gone that route. Good for you. That's a solid build.

As for your Battlemaster tricks, here are the three I use.

Riposte: You'll have a high-AC, and a devastating counterattack is very swashbucklerish.

Menacing Strike: One of my favorite tricks, especially to do at range. Useful against big bruiser-types. I tend to read it less as "Scary" and more as "Awe-inspiring levels of flashyness".

Tripping Strike: Good once you get multiple attacks, against high-dex types, or when working with other melee-types. Drop them prone to give any subsequent melee attacks advantage. Also, very swashbucklerish.

[Alejandro]

Here's the second version. :)

Race: Human
Class: Fighter

STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 14

(Human: +1 Dex, +1 Cha)
+1 skill proficiency
+1 feat

Feat: Defensive Duelist
Skill: Undecided

[SouthpawSoldier]

I'm working on a 5E half-orc version of my other gaming handle; CyranoShrek. It's based on an essay I wrote in my teens comparing the "tragic hero" character concept. Cyrano, Shrek, Quioxte, the Phantom of the Opera, etc. Tangent to OP's swashbuckler query.

A duelist BattleMaster as suggested seems the ticket, but I don't quite see how to incorporate Cyrano's wit into that concept. Flipping up the Hermit background seems to focus more on the religious hermit rather than the angry isolationist, and doesn't quite match the concept.

[Alejandro]

Since I'm giving up a lot of ability pluses for it, have people found Defensive Duelist to be useful and come up often? Or is there a better choice?

[Myzz]

Would you prefer your guy to be more swashbucklier??? or musketeeeir?

Realizing that you don't have access to fire arms, I would say go Eldritch Knight and use a rod shaped like pistol as your arcane focus (or a staff that looks like a musket). For armor use a Breastplate vice just Leather?

For a more swashbucklier feel go Pirate Background? (or just sailor).

[Alejandro]

Would you prefer your guy to be more swashbucklier??? or musketeeeir?

Realizing that you don't have access to fire arms, I would say go Eldritch Knight and use a rod shaped like pistol as your arcane focus (or a staff that looks like a musket). For armor use a Breastplate vice just Leather?

For a more swashbucklier feel go Pirate Background? (or just sailor).

I plan to go Battlemaster, and don't need to recreate having access to firearms. :) Probably a lot more like Zorro, who just uses the sword (and I suppose sometimes the whip.)

[Oscredwin]

What is going to be in your off hand? Options include a dagger/rapier (requires duel wielder feat, gets your AC up to 18 with max dex), a crossbow (requires Xbow Xbert, highest damage option), a buckler (19 AC with light armor, 20 if you get half-plate and medium armor master).

[Joe the Rat]

Since I'm giving up a lot of ability pluses for it, have people found Defensive Duelist to be useful and come up often? Or is there a better choice?
It depends on what you want to do. DD makes you a very hard target, and saves you from having to waste a known maneuver (and die) on parry.

You could take the one that gives you additional known maneuvers and another superiority die. A deeper pool of being you, and access at level 1, should it matter.

Athletic or Nimble (is that the right name? I'm afb right now) would make you faster, more nimble, or improve your leaping. Being able to "kip up" from prone for less move cost (from Athletic) is a nice feature.

While you won't get much use out of the d4 fist and the bonus grapple (you will probably suck at grappling), Tavern Brawler gives you access to the all-important swashbuckler trait of Proficiency with improvised weapons. Parry with a candelabra and throw that roast pheasant like you mean it!

Sentinel would give you a little more field control (opportunity attacks stop movement) and pretty much ensure you will use your reaction. Run away? That's a stabbin'. Try to disengage? That's a stabbin'. Hit someone else? That's a stabbin'. Miss me? spend your die on Riposte, and that's a stabbin'.

Alert and Resilient are always useful, but may not strictly speaking fit your character. Shield Master would get a lot of mileage from your buckler, but again isn't where you want to put your focus.

As an aside, see if your DM would be willing to let you refluff your shield into being a cloak. You still need to "don" (take off and grab) and "doff" it, but it would give you more of the musketeer look when fighting.

[Alejandro]

It depends on what you want to do. DD makes you a very hard target, and saves you from having to waste a known maneuver (and die) on parry.

You could take the one that gives you additional known maneuvers and another superiority die. A deeper pool of being you, and access at level 1, should it matter.

Athletic or Nimble (is that the right name? I'm afb right now) would make you faster, more nimble, or improve your leaping. Being able to "kip up" from prone for less move cost (from Athletic) is a nice feature.

While you won't get much use out of the d4 fist and the bonus grapple (you will probably suck at grappling), Tavern Brawler gives you access to the all-important swashbuckler trait of Proficiency with improvised weapons. Parry with a candelabra and throw that roast pheasant like you mean it!

Sentinel would give you a little more field control (opportunity attacks stop movement) and pretty much ensure you will use your reaction. Run away? That's a stabbin'. Try to disengage? That's a stabbin'. Hit someone else? That's a stabbin'. Miss me? spend your die on Riposte, and that's a stabbin'.

Alert and Resilient are always useful, but may not strictly speaking fit your character. Shield Master would get a lot of mileage from your buckler, but again isn't where you want to put your focus.

As an aside, see if your DM would be willing to let you refluff your shield into being a cloak. You still need to "don" (take off and grab) and "doff" it, but it would give you more of the musketeer look when fighting.

I'm going to go with Defensive Duelist. My GM is letting me start with studded leather instead of chain, with a Dex of 16 and a buckler/cloak, that's an AC of 17; being able to make it 19 when someone lands a hit is pretty good. Later, I will take the Riposte maneuver, so I always have a way to use my reaction; whether I am hit or missed.