D&D Knight class/Prestige classes 3.5

[Pyromanic]

So I'm fairly new to D&D(2years of exp), I am playing a Human Knight Character (phb2) and am trying to find a good prestige class from 3.5ed. The character fights with spiked adamantine full plate and only with his fists, he is also lawful evil because he adheres to his Knights code but I am playing him more chaotic evil. I was informed by someone that there may be a class that requires me to break all of my knights codes called a fallen knight but i can not find it. any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

[Flickerdart]

Classes outside the PHB get very little prestige class support, in general. I have never heard of this fallen knight. It's most likely 3rd party or homebrew, given that a knight doesn't actually fall for transgressing his code.

[Vhaidara]

Knight doesn't Prestige well. They actually keep getting abilities throughout their lifespan, and Knight 20 is one of my favorite martial/non-ToB builds in 3.5.

As far as fallen knight, nothing Knight specific, but your friend might be thinking of either the Blackguard or the Ronin (fallen Paladin and Samurai, respectively)

[Zaq]

If you actually like the Knight's abilities, only more levels in Knight make you better at being a Knight. No PrC (barring edge cases like Uncanny Trickster, which isn't actually a good choice for you) will actually advance Knight's Challenge, Test of Mettle, and so on.

So really, what are you hoping to gain out of a PrC? If you want to keep your Knight abilities scaling, you'll need to stay as a Knight. If you want something else and are willing to sacrifice the scaling on your Knight features, we could talk about PrCs that you qualify for.

As Flickerdart said, there's no "Fallen Knight" class in 3.5 canon, so it's probably homebrew/third party.

[Flickerdart]

Knight doesn't Prestige well. They actually keep getting abilities throughout their lifespan, and Knight 20 is one of my favorite martial/non-ToB builds in 3.5.
Yeah, but most of their abilities between around level 6 and level 19 are super lame.

[Troacctid]

I disagree that more levels in Knight is the best way to go. Knight class features scale poorly and drop off past the midgame. What I would do is, instead of a prestige class, multiclass into Crusader. It has excellent synergy with Knight abilities, making you tankier, better at pulling aggro, and better at supporting your teammates.

[Pyromanic]

If you actually like the Knight's abilities, only more levels in Knight make you better at being a Knight. No PrC (barring edge cases like Uncanny Trickster, which isn't actually a good choice for you) will actually advance Knight's Challenge, Test of Mettle, and so on.

So really, what are you hoping to gain out of a PrC? If you want to keep your Knight abilities scaling, you'll need to stay as a Knight. If you want something else and are willing to sacrifice the scaling on your Knight features, we could talk about PrCs that you qualify for.

As Flickerdart said, there's no "Fallen Knight" class in 3.5 canon, so it's probably homebrew/third party.

The only thing that drew to the "fallen knight"(which is probably home brew as stated by many) or a PrC is maintaining my knights code in this campaign is getting me into more bad than good. And from how I understand it, if I break my knights code I lose a lot of abilities.

[Red Fel]

So I'm fairly new to D&D(2years of exp), I am playing a Human Knight Character (phb2) and am trying to find a good prestige class from 3.5ed. The character fights with spiked adamantine full plate and only with his fists, he is also lawful evil because he adheres to his Knights code but I am playing him more chaotic evil. I was informed by someone that there may be a class that requires me to break all of my knights codes called a fallen knight but i can not find it. any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

I think the bolded part is your biggest hurdle. Does your DM enforce alignments? And as an aside, what do you mean when you say "Chaotic Evil?" And how are you adhering to a code, but at the same time being Chaotic?

As others have said, Knights don't prestige well. A good PrC advances your base class features, and nothing does that for Knight. There are some classes into which you can multiclass (Crusader was mentioned) that work well with what you have, but none of them get you out of your Lawful alignment restriction.

Look, I don't like alignment restrictions, generally speaking. But if one is in play, you have to abide by it. And if you think your character is Chaotic, then Knight is the wrong choice for him, full stop; you lose pretty much everything and become an inferior Fighter, if one can even comprehend such a thing.

Have you considered stepping back, looking at what you actually want out of this character, and rolling a new one that does the job?

[Flickerdart]

Look, I don't like alignment restrictions, generally speaking. But if one is in play, you have to abide by it. And if you think your character is Chaotic, then Knight is the wrong choice for him, full stop; you lose pretty much everything and become an inferior Fighter, if one can even comprehend such a thing.

Why do you say that? There is no fall mechanic for knights.




And from how I understand it, if I break my knights code I lose a lot of abilities.
Uh, no. The knight is actually available on the WotC site for free (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2).

This is literally the entire code and consequences:


A knight does not gain a bonus on attack rolls when flanking. You still confer the benefi t of a flanking position to your ally, but you forgo your own +2 bonus on attack rolls. You can choose to keep the +2 bonus, but doing so violates your code of honor (see below).

A knight never strikes a flat-footed opponent. Instead, you allow your foe to ready himself before attacking.

A knight never deals lethal damage against a helpless foe. You can strike such a foe, but only with attacks that deal nonlethal damage.

If you violate any part of this code, you lose one use of your knight's challenge ability for the day. If your knight's challenge ability is not available when you violate the code (for example, if you have exhausted your uses for the day), you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls and saves for the rest of that day.

[Pyromanic]

I think the bolded part is your biggest hurdle. Does your DM enforce alignments? And as an aside, what do you mean when you say "Chaotic Evil?" And how are you adhering to a code, but at the same time being Chaotic?

As others have said, Knights don't prestige well. A good PrC advances your base class features, and nothing does that for Knight. There are some classes into which you can multiclass (Crusader was mentioned) that work well with what you have, but none of them get you out of your Lawful alignment restriction.

Look, I don't like alignment restrictions, generally speaking. But if one is in play, you have to abide by it. And if you think your character is Chaotic, then Knight is the wrong choice for him, full stop; you lose pretty much everything and become an inferior Fighter, if one can even comprehend such a thing.

Have you considered stepping back, looking at what you actually want out of this character, and rolling a new one that does the job?

The DM does not seem to enforce or put restrictions on alignments. I am just going by What the DM said I have not broken my Knights Code, And I am an evil character. which the DM has stated me Lawful Evil. Though He has also Stated I am Playing Him like a Chaotic Evil Character. When it comes to alignments I do not pay attention to them usually cause I am a bit new to it and am still trying to work no character mechanics. and as for scraping the character and starting over that isn't possible atm due to the campaign style. any questions about the campaign please ask.

[Vhaidara]

Uh, no. The knight is actually available on the WotC site for free (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2).

This is literally the entire code and consequences:

You do realize that most of what makes a knight a knight is the knight's challenge, right?

[danzibr]

Ya know, it's interesting we have fallen Pally PrC and fallen Samurai PrC but no fallen Knight PrC.

[Flickerdart]

You do realize that most of what makes a knight a knight is the knight's challenge, right?
Yeah, but losing one use of the challenge isn't by any means "losing a lot of abilities." Yes, if you repeatedly violate your code, then you'll run out, but there are actually very few things that you can't do.


Ya know, it's interesting we have fallen Pally PrC and fallen Samurai PrC but no fallen Knight PrC.
That's because knights don't have fall mechanics.

[Pyromanic]

Yeah, but losing one use of the challenge isn't by any means "losing a lot of abilities." Yes, if you repeatedly violate your code, then you'll run out, but there are actually very few things that you can't do.


That's because knights don't have fall mechanics.

That's true. If you remain of the Lawful(any) alignment then you keep every thing just lose one use for that day of that ability.

[Pyromanic]

Thanks for the discussion, I have taken alot of good advice from it:smallsmile:

[Red Fel]

That's because knights don't have fall mechanics.

Unless I'm mistaken, way at the end of the Knight section of PHBII is a section on Ex-Knights. If memory serves, if you become Chaotic, you lose all uses of Knight's Challenge, and all abilities based thereon, until you cease to be Chaotic. You no longer take penalties, however.

[Troacctid]

Unless I'm mistaken, way at the end of the Knight section of PHBII is a section on Ex-Knights. If memory serves, if you become Chaotic, you lose all uses of Knight's Challenge, and all abilities based thereon, until you cease to be Chaotic. You no longer take penalties, however.

That's correct, except it's any nonlawful, not just chaotic.


A knight who is no longer lawful loses the benefits of her knight’s challenge ability. As a result, she cannot use class features that require her to expend uses of the knight’s challenge ability, such as fighting challenge, test of mettle, and call to battle. She no longer takes penalties for violating her code of conduct.

A knight can regain her status by returning to a lawful alignment.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Unless I'm mistaken, way at the end of the Knight section of PHBII is a section on Ex-Knights. If memory serves, if you become Chaotic, you lose all uses of Knight's Challenge, and all abilities based thereon, until you cease to be Chaotic. You no longer take penalties, however.

Correct Lord Red Fel.
Edit: Swordsage'd. Curse you evil distractions!

[Flickerdart]

That's correct, except it's any nonlawful, not just chaotic.
Then you might as well complain that there's no prC for an ex-barbarian, because the penalties are more or less exactly the same.

[Vhaidara]

Then you might as well complain that there's no prC for an ex-barbarian, because the penalties are more or less exactly the same.

The problem is that a fallen barbarian is a much stranger niche. A disgraced knight is a much more common trope, but the civilized barbarian usually hits neutral at best. Also, the no-Lawful restriction on barbarians makes less sense than the Lawful restriction on Knights.

Finally, it isn't the same. Disgraced Knights cover twice as many alignments as ex-barbarians.

[Flickerdart]

The problem is that a fallen barbarian is a much stranger niche.
"Civilized ex-savage" isn't a totally alien trope, either historically or in fiction. I can name at least a dozen stranger PrCs.

[Vhaidara]

but the civilized barbarian usually hits neutral at best. Also, the no-Lawful restriction on barbarians makes less sense than the Lawful restriction on Knights.

And I mentioned that.

[Flickerdart]

And I mentioned that.
And I disagree with either assessment. The restriction makes plenty of sense - it's clear that the barbarian rage isn't just a guy getting angry.

[danzibr]

Opinion of course, but fallen Barbarian seems rather lame, while fallen Knight... has potential?