PDA

View Full Version : Necromancer Help



OOTS_Rules.
2007-04-01, 08:01 PM
I need to know what a necromancer's banned schools should be. Can somebody give assistance?

Dhavaer
2007-04-01, 08:01 PM
Enchantment and Evocation.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-04-01, 08:04 PM
K. I'll keep tally of the results in order to make the descision.

Enchantment: 1
Evocation: 1

martyboy74
2007-04-01, 08:19 PM
I second that; they're the normal schools to ban anyways.

Epiphanis
2007-04-01, 08:20 PM
Most necromancy spells have a Fortitude save, excepting the mind-affecting fear effects, which are opposed by Will saves.

I would suggest Transmutation, which is also opposed by Fortitude, and Enchantment, which is mind-affecting Will-based. This leaves you with Necromancy itself for Fort-weak opponents, Necromancy and Illusions for Will-weak opponents, and Evocations and Conjurations for Reflex-weak opponents.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-04-01, 08:31 PM
Enchantment: 3
Evocation: 2
Transmutation: 1

It appears that Enchantment is a shoe-in so far, but I think that I should wait for more results.

ocato
2007-04-01, 08:54 PM
I dunno... enchant them, murder them, raise them. Might be worth rethinking.

Seatbelt
2007-04-01, 08:55 PM
Evocation is almost always worth banning.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-01, 09:13 PM
Evocation, and enchantment.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-01, 09:28 PM
Good God, don't ban transmutation.

Remember Dawn of the Dead?

Q: What's better than a ravenous horde of zombies?
A: A ravenous horde of hasted zombies.

I'd go along with enchantment and evocation.

(You've got illusions to force Will saves.)

((For better advice, though, it might help to indicate what level you'll be playing at, and how you'd like to play your necromancer -- toting around animated minions and charmed wights, or primarily a debuffer?))

Caledonian
2007-04-01, 09:32 PM
Enchantment can be very useful to a Necromancer. Cast Magic Jar with Mind Cloud, and you have a very potent combination that's very difficult to work against.

I vote for Conjuration. With the exception of Teleportation, Conjuration can do very little that Necromancy can't do just as well, or better.

Divination is nifty, but it can be dispensed with in many cases.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-01, 09:55 PM
Divination is nifty, but it can be dispensed with in many cases.Divination can't be dispensed with under any circumstances, per the rules.

Foeofthelance
2007-04-01, 11:27 PM
Do not, under any circumstances, get rid of evocation. Granted, you will have plenty of kill spells using necromancy, but you won't have anything to deal with larger crowds very often, nor will you be able to hit creatures with heavy fort and will saves. Plus there is a feat, whose name that I cannot remember, that allows you to instantly reanimate a creature killed by one of your spells, for only a +1, maybe +2 adjustment to spell level. Fell Animate I believe? something like that.

Personally, dump Conjuration and Abjuration. I prefer necromancer casters for my own PCs, and I find I rarely miss those two.

Assassinfox
2007-04-01, 11:33 PM
Play a Dread Necromancer instead. :smalltongue:

MeklorIlavator
2007-04-01, 11:51 PM
Have you read The logical ninga's giude? Thats always good.
Personally, I would ban evocation and illusion, because enchantment has interesting possiblities for a necromancer. Charm the gaurd, make them fight to the death, and Raise. The perfect controller. I would defenatly keep abjuration, so you could drop cojoration or transmutation, but not both and think long and hard before you do. Conjuration especially overlaps with alot of schools, and has the best direct damage(the orbs).

kpenguin
2007-04-02, 12:11 AM
As the above have said, evocation and enchantment. Necromancy already takes care of the offensive damage anyway.

Gralamin
2007-04-02, 12:15 AM
Do not, under any circumstances, get rid of evocation. Granted, you will have plenty of kill spells using necromancy, but you won't have anything to deal with larger crowds very often, nor will you be able to hit creatures with heavy fort and will saves. Plus there is a feat, whose name that I cannot remember, that allows you to instantly reanimate a creature killed by one of your spells, for only a +1, maybe +2 adjustment to spell level. Fell Animate I believe? something like that.

Personally, dump Conjuration and Abjuration. I prefer necromancer casters for my own PCs, and I find I rarely miss those two.

I'm sorry Foeofthelance has no idea what he is talking about.
Evocation is useless. If you need the spells from it, get it from Shadow Evocation from Illusion. DO NOT EVER DROP CONJURATION OR ABJURATION.
Abjuration gives you dispel magic. Without that you'd be SOOO Screwed. And Conjuration gives you good spells EVERY level.

From all the Schools:
Abjuration - A school of Defense and goodies such as Dispel magic. Do not Drop. Also has one of the two defense spells at this level, Shield.
Conjuration - Good spells every level. From Grease to Gate. Also Gives you the other low level defense Spell Mage Armor
Divination - Sooo Good, and you can't drop it anyway
Enchantment - You enchant people. This is one of the 2 schools to maybe drop.
Evocation - Damage is Useless. Thats what your fighter is for. You can get its goodies such as Wind Wall using Shadow Evocation spells. DROP THIS.
Illusion - If you drop Evocation, keep this for sure, so you can get those goodies as well.
Necromancy - A cool school. Cheese with Ray of Enfeeblement. One of the two schools to maybe drop, and since your specializing as it, DROP ENCHANTMENT.
Transmutation - NEVER CONSIDER DROPING. Enlarge Person to Time Stop, To the almighty cheese of polymorph, alter-self and shapechange. This school is dropped by fools.

So Drop Enchantment and Evocation. Also Do not keep a tally. Look at the arguments.

Read this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500&highlight=Logic+ninja%27s+guide) for more information


Have you read The logical ninga's giude? Thats always good.
Personally, I would ban evocation and illusion, because enchantment has interesting possiblities for a necromancer. Charm the gaurd, make them fight to the death, and Raise. The perfect controller. I would defenatly keep abjuration, so you could drop cojoration or transmutation, but not both and think long and hard before you do. Conjuration especially overlaps with alot of schools, and has the best direct damage(the orbs).
Meklor, If you've seen the guide why do you have this opinion?
Illusion is way too useful to ban, especially as it gives you access to your other banned school if its Evocation. And Droping Conjuration and Transmutation is retarded (Shadow Conjuration only gives access to some of the Conjuration subschools, Shadow Evocation lets you use all the good spells).

Jack Mann
2007-04-02, 12:36 AM
Evocation isn't useless. Shatter, contingency, forcecage... It has a few good spells. It just has fewer good spells than any other school, and a lot of the good spells can be faked with shadow evocation, though you're using a higher level slot for them.

Fireball, lightning bolt, and the rest are not good spells. Nor is magic missile. They don't do much damage.

As for illusion, it can be banned, even if you are getting rid of evocation. It has a lot of overlap with enchantment. Generally, you want to keep it for shadow evocation, but you can live without it, if you really love charm, dominate, etc.

It's not optimal, but you're hardly crippling yourself by banning illusion instead of enchantment.

MeklorIlavator
2007-04-02, 12:43 AM
Meklor, If you've seen the guide why do you have this opinion?
Illusion is way too useful to ban, especially as it gives you access to your other banned school if its Evocation. And Droping Conjuration and Transmutation is retarded (Shadow Conjuration only gives access to some of the Conjuration subschools, Shadow Evocation lets you use all the good spells).

I was giving a non completly optimized opninon, based more on fluff than crunch, an I personally like enchanment better than illusion, but thats mainly because of the character type I prefer.

Yes, dropping Tranmutation or conjuration is a bad idea, but it means that he is suboptimal, and some people are okay with being somewhat unoptimal.

Kultrum
2007-04-02, 12:48 AM
from a purely roleplaying standpoint you can drop evocation (necro= not want to draw attention) and conjuration (why summon when you can make?)

Jack Mann
2007-04-02, 12:49 AM
The problem with transmutation and conjuration is that they have so many good utility and battlefield control spells, and that's where the wizard's main strengths come from. I can just about see dropping conjuration, if you're not worried about optimization, but transmutation? Even banning the polymorph spells, this school just has far too many spells to give up. Giving up transmutation is crippling the caster.

Gralamin
2007-04-02, 12:53 AM
I was giving a non completly optimized opninon, based more on fluff than crunch, an I personally like enchanment better than illusion, but thats mainly because of the character type I prefer.

Yes, dropping Tranmutation or conjuration is a bad idea, but it means that he is suboptimal, and some people are okay with being somewhat unoptimal.

While from a fluff point I see what you mean, but at the same time, you switch ideas in mid paragraph. Separate your ideas with paragraphs man.

I also like Illusion more then enchantment personally so I'm sorry if I overreacted on that regard.

People are okay like that yes, buy make sure they know the potential problems with that choice. It makes more sense to be given all the information before making a decision.
And I'm way to tired to be on right now, oh well.


from a purely roleplaying standpoint you can drop evocation (necro= not want to draw attention) and conjuration (why summon when you can make?)
Hmm I might also like to get around as well (Conjuration has the movement spells)

Caledonian
2007-04-02, 06:26 AM
Divination can't be dispensed with under any circumstances, per the rules.

They only wrote those rules to keep people from always ditching Divination... which shows how weak the school really is.

Caledonian
2007-04-02, 06:32 AM
Fireball, lightning bolt, and the rest are not good spells. Nor is magic missile. They don't do much damage.

Magic Missile is probably the best spell in the game. It's crazy: it takes up only a first-level slot, it has good range, it can be focused on one creature or distributed among several, it always hits its target, and it's made of force energy, which few things have immunity to and can affect incorporeal things or things on the Ethereal Plane.

There's no other first-level spell equal to it in power - most second-level spells aren't that powerful. The only reason it exists is because it's a legacy spell.

martyboy74
2007-04-02, 06:41 AM
They only wrote those rules to keep people from always ditching Divination... which shows how weak the school really is.

You go drop Foresight, True Sight, See Invisibility, Arcane Sight, Scrying, Contact Other Plane, True Strike, Detect Magic/Evil/Good/Law/Chaos/Scrying/Thoughts, Tongues, etc.

Tell me how that goes for you.


Magic Missile is probably the best spell in the game. It's crazy: it takes up only a first-level slot, it has good range, it can be focused on one creature or distributed among several, it always hits its target, and it's made of force energy, which few things have immunity to and can affect incorporeal things or things on the Ethereal Plane.

There's no other first-level spell equal to it in power - most second-level spells aren't that powerful. The only reason it exists is because it's a legacy spell.

You're joking, right? Grease, Sleep, Color Spray are all far better than Magic Missile.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-02, 10:19 AM
A Necromancer dropping Conjuration or Transmutation? Bah!

Picture a bunch of orcs fighting it out with your zombies.

Now picture them fighting Hasted zombies in a Stinking Cloud.

Galdor Miriel
2007-04-02, 10:32 AM
Maybe I am old fashioned, but I reckon you should drop schools based on flavour alone. Also from a statistical point of view all of these arguments about which spells are best and which schools are best do not mean much. Your character will only have so many encounters and in some it might be the magic missile that saves the day, or even the shatter spell. Who knows. I play a wizard and I personally always have a few evocation spells, and so far they have saved the party on more than occaison because of the particular situations that came up. IN those same situations the supposedly superior spells would not have worked because I needed damage at a distance. The real key to a wizard is to have a good balance of spells and some quips ready to amuse the other party members.

If I had to ban schools for a necromancer, I would ban illusion and enchantment, because who needs something incorporeal that cannot do real damage when you have spectres, something incorporeal that you can command to do real damage AND as a necromancer I do not need people to like me, I want them to hurry up and die already so I can raise heir sorry asses.

martyboy74
2007-04-02, 10:40 AM
If I had to ban schools for a necromancer, I would ban illusion and enchantment, because who needs something incorporeal that cannot do real damage when you have spectres, something incorporeal that you can command to do real damage AND as a necromancer I do not need people to like me, I want them to hurry up and die already so I can raise heir sorry asses.

On the other hand, with illusion, you had hide the piles of bodies until you're ready to animate them. Besides, what's better than Hasted Zombies in a Stinking Cloud? Invisible Haster Zombies in a Stinking Cloud!

kpenguin
2007-04-02, 12:50 PM
You're joking, right? Grease, Sleep, Color Spray are all far better than Magic Missile.

Grease -Oh no! A big bunch of oil on the ground! I think I'll fly/jump/walk around it. Seriously, grease is good, but not SUPER good.
Sleep - Doesn't scale. AT ALL. Good at low levels, waste of a spellbook page at medium to high level
Color Spray - Not as bad as Sleep, but still fails to be incredibly useful at higher level

Magic Missile - Not as bad as it sounds. Auto-damage. Weak auto-damage, but auto-damage nonetheless. Okay, still not as good as the three mentioned above, but one of (I think) the best core damage spells.

The real good lvl 1 spells are ray of enfeeblement and charm person

OOTS_Rules.
2007-04-02, 05:11 PM
Enchantment: 9
Evocation: 11
Illusion: 3
Transmutation: 1
Conjuration: 3
Abjuration: 1
Divination: 1

(For further refrence, this Necro is an NPC. He is in a team with a Barbarian Construct, a Dwarven Paladin of Tyrrany, a Flame Elven Monk, a Hobgoblin Wizard, and a character that has yet to be determined, but is definately a cleric.)

Tobrian
2007-04-02, 05:47 PM
I need to know what a necromancer's banned schools should be. Can somebody give assistance?

Ban Conjuration and Illusion if you mainly want to deal with antagonistic undead by destroying or controlling them. Most illusions don't work on undead anyway.

Keep enchantment! You will need it to deal with any living person who objects to your continued existance on the reason of you being an "wicked necromancer". Most people don't expect a necro to use Enchantment, it seems, because those spells don't mix with the common stereotype if the hooded dour antisocial necro. But a lot of Enchantment is really about the ability to control minds. While PrCs like the Mindbender or enchantment specialists like the Beguiler usually have no use for necromancy and their powers are useless against undead, there's no reason why you the necromancer shouldn't control undead and living alike.

Keep the Illusion school if you want access to the spell "Disguise Undead" and "Reflective Disguise (self)", though.

Conjuration should be useful only if you want to cast "Trap the Soul" and the various "Summon Undead I-V" spells (Spell Compendium page 215). Yeah it's nice to summon a ghoul in a tight spot if you've run out of your own undead, but since "Create Greater Undead" is necromancy, why bother? Summoning animals or planar creatures isn't worth it because you can't zombify a summoned creature.

That is assuming you want to be the kind of necromancer who routinely creates undead. If you went into necromancy to learn curses and Chill Touch and the ability to drain levels from your enemies, you might want to keep Transmutation and Abjuration to buff and protect yourself, but you might be able to live without Fireball and Dancing Lights, so ban Evocation and Illusion. When you throw negative energy blasts and Rays of Enfeeblement around you dont need avid arrows or fireballs to deal damage. If course if you run into something immune to negative energy, like an construct, you're screwed, but constructs usually have energy resistances and SR anyway. That's the problem of the specialist wizard, you have to narrow your powers down pretty and what you get is, IMO, a very meagre return. (They could have at least given the specialist a free Spell Focus feat in the selected school. Meh.)

Heck, even if you're mainly an animator of undead, keep Transmutation for the spells "Stone Bones" (Trans, Sorc/Wiz 2) and "Iron Bones" (Trans, Sorc/Wiz 4) from the Spell Compendium.

If your Gamemaster allows non-WotC d20 D&D supplements, then the first thing you should get your hands on when playing an arcane necromancer is "Encyclopedia Arcane: Necromancy - Beyond the Grave" by Mongoose Publishing! "Bones of Steel" is a 2nd level necromancy arcane spell in that supplement. In fact, can't help but think that the Libris Mortis by WotC (which incidentally came out after the supplement from Mongoose Publishing) borrows some things from the Encyclopedia Arcane: Necromancy, but since Encyclopedia Arcane: Necromancy in turn apparently borrowed some ideas from the old AD&D 2nd Edition TSR supplement Complete Necromancer, I guess some things turn up in every RPG rulebook about necromancy...

Unfortunately the abjuration spell "Protection from Negative Energy" is a cleric spell only. I will never understand why. :smallannoyed: Do wizards not have to deal with level-draining undead and fiends? Meh. :smallconfused: That means you only have "Hide from Undead" (formerly Invisibility to Undead) left which is an Abjuration spell.

EDITED TO ADD: OH I see, I was posting while you posted your reply at the same time... I had assumed the necro is an arcane caster ,but as a cleric, he will not have access to spells like "Hold Undead" and various other wizard only necro spells, but on the other hand clerics are rather powerful necros.

Divination can't be taken as banned school, and I think it's very underestimated because it has some cool and useful spells. I have an NPC who is a necromancer/seer with the PrC Spectral Loremaster from the aforementioned Encyclopedia Arcane: Necromancy. EDITED TO ADD: Those PrCs are meant for arcane casters or wiz/cleric multiclassed characters only, sorry.
The real-world origin of the term "necromancy" after all meant divination by summoning and speaking to the spirits of the dead! Shamans underwent a ritual death or metaphorical death and descended into the spirit world as part of their initiation rituals. It's only in fantasy literature that necromancy has become so connected to the idea of zombies and life-force stealing.
also, you can combine regular divination and necro spells that allow you to spy through the eyes of skulls or speak through the mouth of your undead messengers.

If you want to combine Necromancy and Evocation and pretend to be a warmage, use the Deathseeker PrC from Encyclopedia Arcane: Necromancy and make sure you spend a lot of time on battlefields. Suck energy from your dying enemies (or allies), convert it and use it to power your combat spells and keep casting for hours. No-one will ever see you animate a single undead... you're more at home around the living... or rather the dying.
EDITED TO ADD: Those PrCs are meant for arcane casters or wiz/cleric multiclassed characters only, sorry.

Jack Mann
2007-04-02, 06:01 PM
Well, in that case, it's not quite as big a deal what schools you drop, since this necromancer isn't going to be around for more than one or two fights anyway. I'm going to assume that the entire team won't be facing the PCs at once.

Keep illusion and abjuration, definitely. Those can make it a lot harder for your PCs to directly face the necromancer. Conjuration will be a keeper too. Transmutation is a must.

What you'll want to do, especially to build on the necromancer side of things, is to have your offense come from the undead. So, give the NPC any feats that boost undead, and then boost them further with transmutation. Conjuration can make it harder for the PCs to come to you as well, and if used creatively, can give your undead minions bonuses from the terrain (especially good if none of the PCs has flight).

Enchantment is always good to send a PC against his fellows, but it's not really necessary here. If I were setting up this encounter, that's one I'd probably drop.

This nets you an interesting, challenging encounter. With work and ingenuity, the PCs can take out the necromancer, but it won't be easy, either. With some preparation, the necromancer's minions can even present a challenge of their own.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 06:09 PM
...no, Tobrian. A wizard pretty much NEVER wants to ban Conjuration. It's just plain a Bad Move.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-04-02, 06:42 PM
Actually, it is a whole team fighting the 6-man adventuring party. They have 2 Arcane casters (The Necro and the Wizard) and 1 divine (The cleric that is currently undetermined)

Enchantment: 10
Evocation: 11
Illusion: 5
Transmutation: 1
Conjuration: 4
Abjuration: 1
Divination: 1

OK, here are the results so far.

Jack Mann
2007-04-02, 06:44 PM
I'm assuming, then, that the NPCs are of a lower level than the PCs, or else you're planning to kill a fair number of your players.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-04-02, 07:00 PM
Nope. It'll be about 1 level apart. Besides, my team has 2 divine casters. (3 if you count my DMPC, who will become a Paladin at level 14)

Jack Mann
2007-04-02, 07:04 PM
Ah. So, are the PCs meant to survive this, or are you just killing them for fun?

OOTS_Rules.
2007-04-02, 07:07 PM
They are meant to survive. Believe me, my friends were once able to kill 3 ghouls with 4 pregen characters. Other challenges that they will fight include an assembly of Clockwork Horrors, the Clockwork Horror Generator (Which will explode and give them superhuman abilities), and Some Dude (Yes, that is the BBEG's name, Some DUde)

Jack Mann
2007-04-02, 07:11 PM
I recant my earlier suggestion. Ban transmutation and conjuration. Take a lot of fireballs and lightning bolts. Pick up some magic missile too.

In this case, I'd recommend poorly built NPCs. If these antagonists are at all optimized, you're almost certainly going to lose one or two PCs. If they're well built and well played, even with the poor NPC wealth, they're going to run right over your party, and you're going to end up with a TPK.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-04-02, 07:19 PM
Don't worry, my level 1 party has full Masterwork, one definate 18 in a stat of their choice, and a DMPC on their side. The enemy team, and mabye even Some Dude, stand no chance.

Enchantment: 10
Evocation: 11
Illusion: 5
Transmutation: 2
Conjuration: 5
Abjuration: 1
Divination: 1

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 07:22 PM
Dude, level 1 party. At level 1, it's all about what you roll, and you die so easily.

This is a bad idea.

Jack Mann
2007-04-02, 07:23 PM
Lovely. At that level, the NPCs are armed even better than the PCs (having 2,000 gold each). And the PCs are more likely to die from a given hit. Yeah, this is going to end well.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-04-02, 07:24 PM
Nope, the parties will not clash until level 4. AND the NPCs will be poorly statted and have only mundane weapons.

Tobrian
2007-04-04, 03:22 PM
...no, Tobrian. A wizard pretty much NEVER wants to ban Conjuration. It's just plain a Bad Move.

Really? When I played my rogue/wizard/arcane-trickster transmuter (first under 2nd edition and then under 3.0 rules) his banned school in 3E was Evocation, for background reasons. At first it sucked not being able to throw offensive magic around, especially when subsequent rules changes pushed spells like Shocking Grasp out of Transmutation and into Evocation, too... at low levels my character had been built on the idea of using hand-to-hand combat in combination with buffs and "weapon-like" touch spells, he had Improved Unarmed Combat and Evasion and stuff and it worked pretty well, until he lost all those melee touch spells to the stupid rules. At higher levels, it was way more useful to buff the party with transmutation and use divination and abjuration to spy on and debuff the enemy.
But in all that time, he never once conjured a monster. *shrug* I had kept Conjuration just for the single spell "Phantom Steed" because it looks cool, but with one thing and another he never even got the opportunity to pick up the spell. I'm just not a fan of Conjurers.

Yeah under 3.5 my transmuter would have lost Teleport and Dimension Door, two of his main travel spells, to Conjuration, too. That change sucks, and I still don't get why they did it. Meh. :smallmad: Under 3.5 Conjuration has become one of the most loaded and cheesed-up schools, what with Teleport and various orb spells and whatnot. Powergamers used to take Evocation now they all take Conjuration.

Summon Greater Undead or calling celestrials is... nice, I guess, but at low levels all you can summon is some sucky animals, which the opponent will quickly wipe out anyway. So why bother, if you can pick up low-level necro spells like Animate Skeleton (gives you one single skeleton) or Animate Animals?


(For further refrence, this Necro is an NPC. He is in a team with a Barbarian Construct, a Dwarven Paladin of Tyrrany, a Flame Elven Monk, a Hobgoblin Wizard, and a character that has yet to be determined, but is definately a cleric.)

Whoops sorry, I misread this paragraph, I thought the necro would be a cleric, which made me wonder why on earth a cleric would have specialization and banned schools. Then I reread your post.

Morty
2007-04-04, 03:27 PM
Yeah, I banned Conjuration with my current character for flavor reasons, and it's not that big deal. Sure, other schools may be better choice for banning, but it's not suicide or anything. Especially if you don't like creation and summoning spells- and I don't.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-04, 03:44 PM
Really? When I played my rogue/wizard/arcane-trickster transmuter (first under 2nd edition and then under 3.0 rules) his banned school in 3E was Evocation, for background reasons. At first it sucked not being able to throw offensive magic around, especially when subsequent rules changes pushed spells like Shocking Grasp out of Transmutation and into Evocation, too... at low levels my character had been built on the idea of using hand-to-hand combat in combination with buffs and "weapon-like" touch spells, he had Improved Unarmed Combat and Evasion and stuff and it worked pretty well, until he lost all those melee touch spells to the stupid rules. At higher levels, it was way more useful to buff the party with transmutation and use divination and abjuration to spy on and debuff the enemy.
Your build may have been set up for it, but evocation's damaging spells are usually a poor choice. Evocation's a prime choice for banning.


But in all that time, he never once conjured a monster. *shrug* I had kept Conjuration just for the single spell "Phantom Steed" because it looks cool, but with one thing and another he never even got the opportunity to pick up the spell. I'm just not a fan of Conjurers.
Screw summoning monsters. Conjuration has a host of useful spells at each level: Grease, Mage Armor, Glitterdust, Web, Phantom Steed, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, Wall of Stone, Acid Fog, Magnificent Mansion, Plane Shift, Maze, Gate... and now, in 3.5, the Teleport spells, the posession or lack of which makes perhaps a bigger difference in gameplay than anything else.

(For example: in my Red Hand of Doom game, whenever we need something, I teleport on over to a big city to get it the next day. When we wanted to kill a particular blighter lich, we teleported into his room, already buffed up, and killed him in one round. When we need to travel across a lot of land? Not an issue. POOF.)


Yeah under 3.5 my transmuter would have lost Teleport and Dimension Door, two of his main travel spells, to Conjuration, too. That change sucks, and I still don't get why they did it. Meh. :smallmad: Under 3.5 Conjuration has become one of the most loaded and cheesed-up schools, what with Teleport and various orb spells and whatnot. Powergamers used to take Evocation now they all take Conjuration.
Believe me, powergamers who knew what they were doing didn't take evocation. Direct damage is a wizard's least effective option, most of the time. Conjuration is good for battlefield control and now teleport, not for damage.


Summon Greater Undead or calling celestrials is... nice, I guess, but at low levels all you can summon is some sucky animals, which the opponent will quickly wipe out anyway. So why bother, if you can pick up low-level necro spells like Animate Skeleton (gives you one single skeleton) or Animate Animals?
Because you're not using Summon Monster or Summon Undead. You're using the tons of good spells Conjuration has.

Morty
2007-04-04, 04:02 PM
(For example: in my Red Hand of Doom game, whenever we need something, I teleport on over to a big city to get it the next day. When we wanted to kill a particular blighter lich, we teleported into his room, already buffed up, and killed him in one round. When we need to travel across a lot of land? Not an issue. POOF.)

That what's wrong with teleportation in D&D, really.
Conjuration may have many good spells, but I personally consider battlefield control spells highly unfun- and it's not only BControl, from the list above I'd use only Mage's Armor. Orb of X spells belonging to Conjuration is highly unfair for Evocation, so I'm currently persuading my DM to change that.

Tobrian
2007-04-06, 05:49 PM
Screw summoning monsters. Conjuration has a host of useful spells at each level: Grease, Mage Armor, Glitterdust, Web, Phantom Steed, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, Wall of Stone, Acid Fog, Magnificent Mansion, Plane Shift, Maze, Gate... and now, in 3.5, the Teleport spells, the posession or lack of which makes perhaps a bigger difference in gameplay than anything else.

Mage Armor is now CONJURATION?? WTF? *checks online SRD*
I don't believe it. Didn't Mage Armor used to be Abjuration? :smallmad: I could understand if they'd changed it into Evocation (after all, where do you "conjure" a forcefield from?). Why do the WotC boys keep stealing spells from Transmutation, Abjuration and Evocation to stuff them into Conjuration in 3.5? Wasn't that school already large enough??

And as I said, my wizards liked Teleport. Teleport and Telekinesis were the two automatic spells my transmuter took when he reached spellcaster level 9. Of course, under 3.5 they took my TEleport, and they messed up my beloved Polymorph so much that now it only works as a lame-ass combat spell because they castrated duration down to a few rounds. :smallfurious:

Anyway, if I played a specialist (and heaven knows under 3.5 rules I'd rather drop a bowling ball on my foot that play a specialist wizard, what with all the disadvantages this brings, and with all the new classes like Beguiler etc that were published who needs old-style specialists?), I would select spells and banned schools for flavour reasons not with towards idea of what gives me the most twink in combat. I hate non-fighter characters that are solely optimized towards combat... so boring.


That what's wrong with teleportation in D&D, really. (snip)

Why? (Mass-)Teleport is mainly a travel spell. Any villain worth his salt will have measures in place to protect himself against people just beaming into his bedchamber. If you'd forbid teleporting heroes you'd have to ban spells like DimDoor, Passwall, Ethereal Jaunt, Airwalk and other stuff too.

The Eberron setting introduced the Lightning Rail trains and flying ships for the express reasons (pardon the pun) to shorten boring travel times and to make it possible for PCs to quickly travel from cities to interesting out-of-the-way adventure locales and vice versa, in best Pulp Adventure/Indiana Jones manner.

---
Alright, so the necro should keep Conjuration. *sigh* Illusion used to be the "natural" opposite school for necromancy (at least it was under AD&D 2nd ed and in AD&D Dragonlance) but I think keeping invisibility and Disguise Undead in combination with undead minions can make for wicked ambushes, unless the opponents throw around Detect Evil and Detect Undead spells everywhere.