Is Stand Still Worth It?

[ArcanistSupreme]

I'm making a level 4 Lore Warden/Martial Master lock-down fighter, and Stand Still (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/stand-still-combat---final) looks like it would be an ideal feat. Ideal except for the following (emphasis mine):


When a foe provokes an attack of opportunity due to moving through your adjacent squares, you can make...

I know that some DMs rule it as all threatened squares, but my DM is ruling it literally. Is it still worth it to take the feat? Or are there better options? Currently I have the following feats:

1st Level: Power Attack
Human Bonus: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 1: Improved Unarmed Strike
Fighter 2: ??????
Lore Warden: Combat Expertise
3rd Level: Improved Trip
Fighter 4: Martial Training I (Blade of Breaking & Red Zephyr's Strike)

I'm also eyeing Bodyguard, Step Up, and Furious Focus. Thoughts?

[Elricaltovilla]

Considering that your DM is taking the literal reading, probably not. Bodyguard can be useful and can be used to take In Harm's Way allowing you to take an attack for an adjacent ally, the Step Up line is very popular for "tank" characters as it makes you... stickier? I guess that's the word. I'd avoid Furious Focus unless you plan on only making one big attack per round.

On a sidenote, if you're able to take Martial Training, why not use a full-blown PoW class?

[ArcanistSupreme]

I was looking at the Warlord, but it just seemed that I could do the whole lock-down thing better as the fighter. Are you suggesting Warder? What maneuvers would you focus on?

[Elricaltovilla]

I was looking at the Warlord, but it just seemed that I could do the whole lock-down thing better as the fighter. Are you suggesting Warder? What maneuvers would you focus on?

If you want to lock down and tank, you pretty much have to be a Warder. It's kinda their schtick. I have a link to a bunch of Path of War guides in my signature, including a Warder Guide. Give that a look and feel free to ask me any questions you've got.

[Bucky]

I'm currently running a lore warden fighter 3 with these feats:
Combat Reflexes (Racial Human)
Improved Initiative (Level 1)
Step Up (Fighter bonus 1)
Combat Expertise (Lore Warden 2)
Improved Trip (Fighter bonus 2)
Fury's Fall (Level 3)

Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't seem necessary when I can use Armor Spikes instead. Step Up is sometimes wasted when I'm in a Reach stance, since it only works on adjacent enemies, but still IMO worth taking.

[ArcanistSupreme]

If you want to lock down and tank, you pretty much have to be a Warder. It's kinda their schtick. I have a link to a bunch of Path of War guides in my signature, including a Warder Guide. Give that a look and feel free to ask me any questions you've got.

I've been browsing the guide, and I'm thinking Zweihander Sentinel with a focus on Scarlet Throne and a smattering of Iron Tortoise and Golden Lion. What do you think?

[Elricaltovilla]

I've been browsing the guide, and I'm thinking Zweihander Sentinel with a focus on Scarlet Throne and a smattering of Iron Tortoise and Golden Lion. What do you think?

Yeah, that's pretty standard. The exact maneuver selection is going to defend on how much "tank" you want. I usually prefer Iron Tortoise>Scarlet Throne>Golden Lion>Primal Fury. There's a few key maneuvers in Golden Lion and Primal Fury that can really help your party's survivability if you want to branch out on your maneuver selection.

[Vhaidara]

When I do a tank build I like to use Warder with a mix of Iron Tortoise, Golden Lion, and Silver Crane (trade out Primal Fury for Silver Crane)

[ArcanistSupreme]

Ooo, I like the idea of Silver Crane instead of Primal Fury. Would I be losing out on anything by trading it away?

We also get 25 point buy (which is fun). What do you think of: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 18 (Including Human +2), Wis 9, Cha 7

[Elricaltovilla]

Ooo, I like the idea of Silver Crane instead of Primal Fury. Would I be losing out on anything by trading it away?

We also get 25 point buy (which is fun). What do you think of: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 18 (Including Human +2), Wis 9, Cha 7

No, you're not really missing anything from Primal Fury that isn't outweighed by Silver Crane's Healing, Protection, DR and Flying.

I prefer 14 10 16 18 12 8 for a couple reasons: 1. A negative modifier on the save that protects you from mind control is bad and 2. because you don't need to hit the top of the damage charts, you need to be able to control an area and keep your enemies inside it so Strength doesn't need to be super high.

[Vhaidara]

Well, Primal Fury is mostly the HIT THING HARD discipline. It's a lot of two handed maneuvers with a big focus on damage.

Silver Crane, meanwhile, brings in combat healing to the table, along with some defensive boosts (Silver Crane Waltz is possibly the best level 1 defensive stance).

Basically, my PoW Paladin build is a Golden Lion/Silver Crane Warder.

[grarrrg]

Well, a sort-of way around the "adjacent" problem is to get Enlarged. Then you take up more space, and they are more likely to have to be 'adjacent' to you.


Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't seem necessary when I can use Armor Spikes instead. Step Up is sometimes wasted when I'm in a Reach stance, since it only works on adjacent enemies, but still IMO worth taking.

Except you CAN'T 'just use Armor Spikes'.
Relevant FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9)
If you use a Two-Handed weapon (as most Reach weapons are), then both of your arms are "occupied" with that weapon for the round, and are unavailable to make AoO's and such.



If going with the original idea, it may be worth it to drop in a level of Brawler. It would let you bypass the INT 13 requirement on all the "Improved" feats.
As for how Martial Training interacts with Martial Master...not sure. Either you get 2 pools of uses, or the level 'stack'. You'd have to check with your DM.

[Bucky]

Except you CAN'T 'just use Armor Spikes'.
Relevant FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9)
If you use a Two-Handed weapon (as most Reach weapons are), then both of your arms are "occupied" with that weapon for the round, and are unavailable to make AoO's and such.


Last I checked, Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't let you use unarmed strikes with both hands full. Monks can, because it's a class feature on top of the feat.

If you really want to threaten adjacent squares while using a two-handed Reach weapon, the only way I know to do this through feats/equipment is a Blade Boot, which may require the Acrobatic Steps feat to employ effectively.

(Assuming that a released blade boot stays attached to your foot, rather than somehow moving to your off-hand as RAW implies)

[Undertucker]

Except you CAN'T 'just use Armor Spikes'.
Relevant FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9)
If you use a Two-Handed weapon (as most Reach weapons are), then both of your arms are "occupied" with that weapon for the round, and are unavailable to make AoO's and such.

This FAQ is referring to using TWF to make an offhand attack IN ADDITION to attacking with a 2h weapon. I assume in this case Bucky was referring to removing a hand from the weapon to use the armor spikes to attack INSTEAD, then placing that hand back onto his polearm after. This is backed up by the FAQ here (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qda). Note the FAQ states you still threaten the area you normally would once wielding the weapon with two hands again, so the reach AoOs are still good too.

As it is a free action to remove/replace your hand, you could also do this if you had iterative attacks to punch the guy next to you and then re-grip your weapon to stab another guy with your polearm.

[grarrrg]

Last I checked, Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't let you use unarmed strikes with both hands full. Monks can, because it's a class feature on top of the feat.

There's enough people that hand-wave being able to kick as an unarmed strike normally.
From the other side of the coin, there are people who think the Monk is capable of headbutting people, but a strict RAW reading reveals this not to be the case.


I assume in this case Bucky was referring to removing a hand from the weapon to use the armor spikes to attack INSTEAD, then placing that hand back onto his polearm after....you still threaten the area you normally would once wielding the weapon with two hands again, so the reach AoOs are still good too.

That's all well and good...during your turn.
But you can't make Free Actions when it is NOT your turn. Meaning you can make AoO's either Two-Handing your weapon OR using Spikes/Unarmed, but not both. This decision must be made before/at the end of your turn, and lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
Most relevant FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sk0)

[Undertucker]

That's all well and good...during your turn.
But you can't make Free Actions when it is NOT your turn. Meaning you can make AoO's either Two-Handing your weapon OR using Spikes/Unarmed, but not both. This decision must be made before/at the end of your turn, and lasts until the beginning of your next turn.

Ah yes, completely agree with that.

[Roog]

Except you CAN'T 'just use Armor Spikes'.
Relevant FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9)
If you use a Two-Handed weapon (as most Reach weapons are), then both of your arms are "occupied" with that weapon for the round, and are unavailable to make AoO's and such.

That FAQ does not stop you from using armor spikes to make AOOs.
Armor spikes can be used as either regular attacks or as off-hand attacks. That FAQ only refers to their use as off-hand attacks, so does not restrict your ability to use the armor spikes to make regular AOOs.
You also do not need to take a hand off the polearm to attack with the armor spikes (unless there is some other faq that says you have to), so there should be no need to worry about free actions.

[The Random NPC]

That FAQ does not stop you from using armor spikes to make AOOs.
Armor spikes can be used as either regular attacks or as off-hand attacks. That FAQ only refers to their use as off-hand attacks, so does not restrict your ability to use the armor spikes to make regular AOOs.
You also do not need to take a hand off the polearm to attack with the armor spikes (unless there is some other faq that says you have to), so there should be no need to worry about free actions.

There was some FAQ that said you couldn't TWF with a Greatsword and Armor Spikes, so maybe? I'll try to find it.

EDIT: Found it. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9)

EDIT2: Wow, I must be tired. I can't believe I missed what the entire last two posts were about. I'll be off to bed now.