I need help picking the right side.

[Garshu]

OK, so I will start with the current scenario. While asleep, the enemy is trying to dissuade the players from pursuing their quest (finding said villain and making him not living). To do this, he summons a smoke mephit from their campfire and delivers his message, all "muahahahaha im evil like". but the fighter (who really hasn't been too awesome thus far) has the polearm mastery feat which allows him an attack on anything entering his range. He wanted a free attack on the summoned Mephit(he was on watch at the time) and after a bunch of back and forth on it I gave him the attack. He missed so it didn't change much, but I want to know GITP's opinion on whether or not a summoned creature counts as entering his range for the purposes and spirit of polearm mastery.

[kaoskonfety]

hmm, neat?

From the pants call "yes, he can take a swing at it", its kinda the point of being on guard. If no one has checked the rules for clarification on summoning vs. movement I'll take a glance later.

If he had hit it, this could have been a mild comedy moment

In the predawn light, inky smoke billows from your camp fire and forms into a solid bat winged devil, its face twisted in malice...
BAMF - "I come with a.." *STAB*
BAMF - "I speak for.." STAB
BAMF - "Alright seriousl... " STAB
BAMF - bearing a white flag and looking terrified "PARLEY!!!"... (probably stab)

might take the edge of the big bads horror, but some times that how it rolls


*** edit - whenever I'm in doubt, unless I have a GOOD reason, I generally rule the player CAN do something over they CAN'T, it keeps the scene moving and keeps them in charge of their actions

[kaoskonfety]

Polearm master triggers when "they enter your reach" - no comment on 'movement' unless you decide they intend/mean "enter your reach from outside your reach".

Various conjure/summoning spells have the descriptor "appears". Since they don't use the word "enter" there may be some flex to decide what this means. I feel this kind if hair splitting is unproductive to the process of slaying imaginary trolls, but to each their own.

Provided they "appear" in his reach and he is armed with a polearm, I see no *good* reason why not. They spent a feat on it to do something neat. This is neat.

[Talin]

OK, so I will start with the current scenario. While asleep, the enemy is trying to dissuade the players from pursuing their quest (finding said villain and making him not living). To do this, he summons a smoke mephit from their campfire and delivers his message, all "muahahahaha im evil like". but the fighter (who really hasn't been too awesome thus far) has the polearm mastery feat which allows him an attack on anything entering his range. He wanted a free attack on the summoned Mephit(he was on watch at the time) and after a bunch of back and forth on it I gave him the attack. He missed so it didn't change much, but I want to know GITP's opinion on whether or not a summoned creature counts as entering his range for the purposes and spirit of polearm mastery.

From what I understand out of Polearm Master is that you get the AoO when they Step or Move into you're threaten space, and I firmly believe that it is because the Fighter has trained and understood the range of his reach weapons and knows how early he can strike with it.

Personally I rule that if the enemy goes **POOF** "I am infront of you but I am here to give a message" that the Fighter can make an attack but it is because he is the one engaging the enemy. After which I would have him roll initiative.

But no I don't think Polearm Master gives you a free attack because they poof infront of you.

[GiantOctopodes]

Gonna point out that forced movement does not trigger AoOs under any circumstances. So while I would rule that teleportation and teleportation effects may trigger AoOs under Sentinel (but not when teleporting out, possibly inconsistent but that's how I'd personally run it) I see no possible justification for triggering an AoO on a creature Summoned within reach, as it had no choice in moving to that location and as such the summoning could be considered involuntary movement.

[goto124]

If he had hit it, this could have been a mild comedy moment

In the predawn light, inky smoke billows from your camp fire and forms into a solid bat winged devil, its face twisted in malice...
BAMF - "I come with a.." *STAB*
BAMF - "I speak for.." STAB
BAMF - "Alright seriousl... " STAB
BAMF - bearing a white flag and looking terrified "PARLEY!!!"... (probably stab)

I would've allowed it just for this. Rule of Cool after all.

[Draken]

In the future, just inform your player to keep a readied action while on guard. Maybe "Attack anything that shows up uninvited within (pole)arm's reach.

[MeeposFire]

My only question would be would he possibly be surprised? Yes he was on watch but even if you were looking for something I think surprise could be obtained if you just appear with no warning right next to someone. If so would that have prevented the attack?

[metaridley18]

In the future, just inform your player to keep a readied action while on guard. Maybe "Attack anything that shows up uninvited within (pole)arm's reach.

Or he could be like my last DM, "You can't ready an action outside of combat! You can only do that when initiative is rolled! Otherwise, everyone would have a readied action all the time and never be surprised."

I could see his point, but I still maintain that if I know there's an orc on the other side of the door, I don't have to be surprised when he busts down the door!

[MeeposFire]

Or he could be like my last DM, "You can't ready an action outside of combat! You can only do that when initiative is rolled! Otherwise, everyone would have a readied action all the time and never be surprised."

I could see his point, but I still maintain that if I know there's an orc on the other side of the door, I don't have to be surprised when he busts down the door!

True but this is not an example of knowing something is on the other side of a door and it bursts through. If I understand correctly the character was on watch but did not have any knowledge that would give him any warning that a creature was about to appear. I would think surprise would be a distinct possibility unless some warning could be given (such as a sound or visual effect that occurs that gives sufficient warning that something is coming).

[Galen]

I'm of the opinion you can't have an action readied all the time, because having an action ready is about as strenuous as engaging in actual combat (it's the equivalent of holding your bowstring pulled back all the time). But, yeah, if you know about the orc on the other side of the door that's about to bust through, no reason why you can't ready an action in the short term.

[Jlooney]

I would have given him a second save to avoid being surprised and if he failed he hit it out of startle reflex. I've punched people who have frightened me before.

as for the situation at hand. You have a range on summon. You can't be teleported against your will that I'm aware of. That would be the difference in my opinion and if it was teleport then sure.

Or default to the rule of this fighter doesn't have a 20 str and a 20 con because he took a feat. Let him smack the obviously weak attempt to scare the party.

[Shadow]

Personally (and in no way does this constitute an actual rule) I envision the AO provided by the PM feat as more of a "setting up against a charge" type of action.
When you see an enemy closing, you set your polearm to greet them at the door, so to speak.
As such, I would not have allowed it on a summoned creature. Plus, the mephit didn't move there of his own free will. He didn't "use his movement" to enter that area. So again, no, I would not have allowed it. In addition, the mephit simply appears, effectively surprising the fighter (even if not mechanically).... unless that fighter were expecting a mephit to suddenly appear from within the fire/smoke. So once again, no, I would not have allowed it.

[kaoskonfety]

Gonna point out that forced movement does not trigger AoOs under any circumstances. So while I would rule that teleportation and teleportation effects may trigger AoOs under Sentinel (but not when teleporting out, possibly inconsistent but that's how I'd personally run it) I see no possible justification for triggering an AoO on a creature Summoned within reach, as it had no choice in moving to that location and as such the summoning could be considered involuntary movement.

and here's another entertainingly arguable issue on the back and forth: if "appears" is "entering reach", the summoner chooses where the beasty appears. Was the beasty "forced" to move there?

- The summoned creature and caster would say yes, this is forced movement and no attack applies, the beasty had no choice and one wants to save its bacon the other its spell slot from a good stabbing.

- The fighter would say no, its not forced, the wizard chose the spell placement, just because the newly minted creature didn't have any say in the matter, the location it appeared was not "forced".

I don't suppose anyone knows of/can get a formal ruling on this? Cause that's where we are heading question wise with the solid points on both sides and fiddly wording.

[jkat718]

I think this is the key thing to think about:

You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction.

Does this text get overruled (through general < specific) by the Polearm Mastery feat, which states:

While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, or quarterstaff, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach.

I would rule no, especially because the first section also states:

In a fight, everyone is constantly watching for enemies to drop their guard. You can rarely move heedlessly past your foes without putting yourself in danger; doing so provokes an opportunity attack.

I interpret this as "you can only get OAs in combat" (ie. after rolling for initiative). Of course, that's only my interpretation. As far as a more general-use ruling goes, I'd say that the Polearm Mastery feat only overrules the section in Combat that says:

You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out o f your reach.

This does not include the first section I quoted, and so teleporting still doesn't provoke an OA. Again, open to discussion. I've tweeted the Sage, let's see if we get a response.

[AstralFire]

My two cents:

- A combat encounter starts as soon as you are aware of the realistic and imminent possibility of combat occurring. Thus, you can ready an action against a dude on the other side of the door about to bust it down.
- Opportunity Attacks rely on an opening made by an opponent as part of voluntary physical movement. It's an abstraction for lowered guards and blindspots as part of the act of turning. Teleportation is not physical, and thus doesn't qualify under ordinary circumstances.
- As soon as the imp got more than four words out, combat reasonably could have started with the fighter attacking. It wasn't a readied action per se, but it doesn't take someone long at all to react to someone talking at them. So no meaningful message could have transpired without giving the fighter a chance to attack.

[jkat718]

- A combat encounter starts as soon as you are aware of the realistic and imminent possibility of combat occurring. Thus, you can ready an action against a dude on the other side of the door about to bust it down.
In a situation where the party is going to burst down a door and surprise an orc, I'd roll for their initiatives and the orc's before they bust down the door (or immediately afterwards, more likely. I tend to forget :smallbiggrin:). That way, the party can prep their attacks (triggered to "when we bust down the door"), bust down the door, and then immediately all attack, removing the orc's ability to counterattack anything after its turn (because it's technically still surprised). Then, the surprise round begins. Probably a little stronger than it should be, but I can use it against them and it works decently well (also, bonuses for actually thinking about strategy are always encouraged at my table). All of that is RAW, because the PHB only says that you are surprised during your first turn, not the first round.

In the case where the party runs away, bars/locks the door behind them, and the orc smashes it down, the combat didn't end yet (it just moved), so they're still in initiative order. If you get a turn in before the door goes down, you can use Ready, no problem.


- As soon as the imp got more than four words out, combat reasonably could have started with the fighter attacking. It wasn't a readied action per se, but it doesn't take someone long at all to react to someone talking at them. So no meaningful message could have transpired without giving the fighter a chance to attack.
Not really, Talking Is A Free Action (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TalkingIsAFreeAction)! :smalltongue: