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JackMage666
2007-04-01, 09:05 PM
Here's a question we recently ahd to houserule, and yet I can't find it in any books or FAQs. If a spellcasting character has bonus seppls, can he use those bonus spells for metamagic feats. Of course you can do it at levels of spells you can already cast, but what about higher than you can cast?

Say, for instance, you have a 1st Sorcerer with 18 Cha. You want to cast Mage Armor modified by your shiny little Still Spell feat, making it a second level spell. You have a bonus spell for 1st-4th level spells, so you do technically have a spell slot available, although you don't know any spells at that level. So, could you cast a metamagic modified spell at a higher level than you know spells at?

I'm on the fence. Against it, I understand that you're allowing a character access to powerful alterations to spells. But, for it, you don't actually get any new spells, just altered ones. A empowered Burning Hands is still Burning Hands, after all, just stronger, as well, yuo can do it much less times per day (normally, only once, but there are some exceptions).

Of course, we wouldn't allow a 2nd level wizard to learn 4th level spells due to his high Int and, thus, bonus 4th level spells, but we would allow him to use the metamagic feats to alter it.

As, said, I'm on the fence and looking for opinions - It's a use for metamagic for low level characters, as well as an additional benefit for high ability scores. But, it could also just be making mages more powerful.

So, what do you think?


And, the character in question was a sorcerer, so he also had the additional problem of full-round casting. Perhaps house-rule this as a benefit to Sorcerers, since they have to actually use more effort to cast the spell, unlike Wizards? Sorcerers always did get the short end of the metamagic stick.

Jacob Orlove
2007-04-01, 09:10 PM
The short answer is no. You only gain bonus slots for spell levels that you can already cast.


ABILITIES AND SPELLCASTERS (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/basics.html)

The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers; or Charisma for sorcerers and bards. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. (See the class descriptions for details.)

brian c
2007-04-01, 09:49 PM
By RAW, no.

However, as a houserule that says: if you only have up to 3rd level spells but your INT (or CHA) qualifies you for a 4th level bonus spell, you can use that 4th level spell on an Enlarged Fireball. I don't think this is too bad, but if you have optimized/already overpowered casters, it's a little unnecessary.

JackMage666
2007-04-01, 09:54 PM
He got it past the DM, simply because he said that Sorcerers already had problems with Metamagic (and he didn't use the metamagic Specialist varient in PHBII, since he didn't know about it)

Jacob Orlove
2007-04-02, 06:26 PM
Are these higher level spells getting counted against the spells per day limit, or are the characters just getting extra spells per day? That's probably going to upset things a bit at low levels, especially if anyone uses Heighten.

brian c
2007-04-02, 07:30 PM
Are these higher level spells getting counted against the spells per day limit, or are the characters just getting extra spells per day? That's probably going to upset things a bit at low levels, especially if anyone uses Heighten.

The way I'm thinking of it, that would be more or less balanced, is that you get to use your higher level bonus spell. This is a spell that you could cast as a regular spell if you were high enough level to do so, but since you aren't you can only use that slot for a metamagic-ed spell from a lower level. Without this rule, that bonus spell would go unused. Effectively this does give you a few more spells per day, depending on how high your INT/CHA/WIS is.

I can see this being somewhat broken if you're playing high level, and have very high INT/WIS/CHA and thus get access to metamagic-ed 9th level spells that normally aren't allowed (using the table in the Epic handbook for bonus spells above 9th level)

Jacob Orlove
2007-04-02, 11:27 PM
My issue was more that it gives a first level Wizard with a high stat double or triple the normal number of spells per day (a specialist with an 18 Int gets 6 1st level spells/day at first level, instead of 3). That's really good, and if someone who starts with a high stat manages it carefully, they can get extra bonus spells at pretty much every level. Pearls of Power are expensive, but you're basically just handing them out for free, and upgrading them as the character gets access to higher level spells and a higher casting stat.

And yeah, casting spells of greater than 9th level is bad times, but waaaaay more people play levels 1-5 than levels 15-20.

brian c
2007-04-03, 12:13 AM
Well I don't think giving a wizard additional spells at low levels is game-breaking either; spellcasters are a little bit underpowered at low levels.

TSGames
2007-04-03, 12:19 AM
Well I don't think giving a wizard additional spells at low levels is game-breaking either; spellcasters are a little bit underpowered at low levels.
O No! If physics+DnD kills catgirls, what did the Wizards are under/overpowered debate kill? (I ask "did" because by now every single one of the unfortunate creatures is dead, turned into a horse, brought back to life, and then beaten to death again).

Quietus
2007-04-03, 01:36 AM
And is still being beaten.

melchizedek
2007-04-03, 02:05 AM
it would provide a significant boost to spellcaster power, and wouldn't technically be allowed by the rules. I wouldn't allow it, but if the DM lets it in, I don't think it's going to hugely alter the game.

Jacob Orlove
2007-04-03, 02:06 AM
Even if they are underpowered at low levels (they're really not, but that's not a worthwile debate), if you start with an 18 (or worse, a 20), it's pretty easy to keep your casting stat ahead of the curve as you level up, and always have bonus slots above your highest spell level.

Remember, you'd normally get the full benefit of an 18 at level 7, by which point you're already up at least a +2 enhancement item and +1 level boost (which hits +2 at level 8). By the time you'd normally get your highest bonus spells from that 22, you're level 11, and have easily picked up a +4 item. That delays things for another two levels, and by 13, you should be able to afford a +6 enhancement easily enough (although if you want to be conservative, it won't fall below the 25% threshold until level 14). That buys another couple levels, and level 16 is where you get your second effective level boost (that 18 is now a 28).

So, at minimum, the Wizard (or Cleric, or whoever) is getting bonus spell slots of higher levels than normal at least through level 12, and probably through level 16 or so (at which point you quickly start being able to buy Tomes and cast Wish for an even higher stat). That's a huge, unnecessary boost.

What's worse is that this hugely magnifies the differences between a 14, a 16, an 18, and a 20 as your starting stat. The 20 gets to be so far ahead of the curve, it's not even funny, while the 14 and even the 16 languish in relative mediocrity.