Random Thoughts: Speed style Initiative

[Vhaidara]

Okay, so, I was just letting ideas bounce around in my head, and thought of a possibility: Turn initiative into a speed system.
First step: Initiative modifier now includes your normal BAB (so things like Divine Power and other BAB boosters don't factor in).
At the start of combat, you roll as normal.
Whenever you take a turn, your initiative is reduced by 10.
When your initiative is below 0 (not at, but below), you are removed from the order.
When the order is empty, everyone rolls again
Repeat until the encounter ends.

Thoughts? I was thinking it would give a nice boost to Dex-based martials, who generally struggle to keep up with Str based characters

[Honest Tiefling]

I think giving dexterity based martials a boost is a good idea, but...And this will sound odd, but it wrecks havoc with casters. I know they don't need a boost, but it wrecks havoc when they're playing with the party or poorly. A blaster will be useless as they don't go quickly enough to get off AoEs to soften enemies for the party. AoE buffs will be annoying to boot without a good range. And they cannot cast a quick buff at the beginning of the battle.

I would say having dexterity based martials be effective at something is better then letting them go first. Its great if you go first, but if you're still plinking at the enemy and dying in one hit, you...Still suck.

[Bucky]

Round 1: I roll 14 for initiative, my enemy rolls 13. I get a turn, my enemy gets a turn, I get a turn, my enemy gets a turn. Simple enough.
Round 2: I roll a 3 for initiative, my enemy rolls a 24. My enemy gets three more turns and then I get a turn. Wat.

Having 0-2 extra turns in a round based on the result of a die roll seems way too random.

[Glimbur]

Older editions used a d10 for initiative; that might help mitigate Bucky's concern. And it makes modifiers matter more. Something to consider.

[grarrrg]

The first issue I see with this idea is the existence of things like Divination Specialist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination) Wizard:
"...receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20."

The +1/2 level bonus essentially gives them 'full' Bab as far as Initiative is concerned, and Level 20 is an automatic +2 turns per round.
There are a fair number of classes that get "+1/2 level Initiative" via archetypes as well.


First step: Initiative modifier now includes your normal BAB (so things like Divine Power and other BAB boosters don't factor in).
At the start of combat, you roll as normal.
Whenever you take a turn, your initiative is reduced by 10.


Round 2: I roll a 3 for initiative, my enemy rolls a 24. My enemy gets three more turns and then I get a turn. Wat.

Having 0-2 extra turns in a round based on the result of a die roll seems way too random.

Generally agreed.
The main issue is the d20, dropping it to a d10, or making it 2d10 (or 3d6) would eliminate the most of the "huge swing" issue.


Potential fix to both issues:
Since you are tying it into Bab anyway, why not "Limited to a number of turns equal to number of Iteratives?".
Fighter 20 has 20 Bab > 4 Attacks on a Full, is capped at 4 turns per round.
Wizard 20 has 10 Bab > 2 Attacks on a Full, is capped at 2 turns per round.

[Vhaidara]

Well, the main reason I don't want to cap it by iteratives is that the Dex fighters I'm really trying to help tend to actually be 3/4 BAB characters, or a mix of full and 3/4.

I do agree, the system should change to a lower number. I actually might be inclined to go as far as making the dice 5d4. Just to torture people.

I had a little niggle in the back of my mind about things like Diviner Wizard. The level 20 ability I don't really care about, any game reaching that level has too many fundamental problems to fix. The level bonus might have to be moved to elsewhere, or add in a clause about level-based initiative bonuses.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Okay, so, I was just letting ideas bounce around in my head, and thought of a possibility: Turn initiative into a speed system.
First step: Initiative modifier now includes your normal BAB (so things like Divine Power and other BAB boosters don't factor in).
At the start of combat, you roll as normal.
Whenever you take a turn, your initiative is reduced by 10.
When your initiative is below 0 (not at, but below), you are removed from the order.
When the order is empty, everyone rolls again
Repeat until the encounter ends.

Thoughts? I was thinking it would give a nice boost to Dex-based martials, who generally struggle to keep up with Str based charactersI've seen this style of initiative in other games, where the higher your initiative the more turns you get. What ends up happening is that dexterity become a stat that every character maxes out, and every character invests heavily into initiative because getting more turns that the other guy is so incredibly important.

It's also something that I think would work better in a system that has less variance in scores tied to the dice being used. Maybe switch initiative to using something other than a d20. Probably something that wouldn't allow for multiple turns to be an expected outcome without a high modifier. 1d4, 1d6, or 1d8 all fit the bill there.

[unbutu]

I suggest you take a look at the turn order system of Final Fantasy tactics.

I was so fascinated by it that when 3rd edition came out, all my games used a variant of it.

In short: Turns are divided with the actual Move-Standard. Taking a standard but not a move (and vice-versa) makes your next turn come faster, but not twice as fast.

Turns are taken in a endless sequence, instead of rounds. You are given a ''speed rating'', wich you will have to figure out. A blunt example could be your dex value + 1d4. So for example, a 13 dex character rolls 1, he'll act with a speed of 14.

Act
1
2
3
4
.....
14: Act again, roll 13 +1 again.
15
16
......
28 act again


Adding another character, the other one could act at 11-22-35 ect ect ect

Of course, this open a lot of things a munchkin will notice (the rise of the dex builds) that you have to look at. Just don't use dex, or whatever. I think there was speed rating for classes too, it is so far back...

The core of it, no matter how you stat it, is to have turns be in a infinite sequence instead of rounds, where a faster character will slowly, over many turns, play one more turn over others.

[kalasulmar]

How about weapon speed from 2nd Edition? Slow down the big boys and speed up the Dex builds......

[Eldan]

The problem is, that D&D is already a system very dependent on strong first strikes. At low levels, a good hit with a weapon can kill you.

Let's say we're level 2. We have a fighter with a great sword, 16 strength, 14 dex and improved initiative. If he rolls high enough to get two turns, he can use his 6-16 damage (average 11) to kill two people right away (unless they have good hit dice or high constitution), before they can react. A rogue can do the same, with his sneak attack die, though with less guarantee of succeeding.

At higher levels? One spell can easily decide a combat. So, a caster would prepare Omen of Peril and Nerveskitter. Under this system, they'd also take improved initiative and a high dexterity, which they can easily push further. SO, we're looking at, what, +15 to +20 initiative.

If that caster gets two or three turns? Three spells if they don't have Quicken or Celerity or Swift Action Spells or Time Stop or anything like that. Easily 5+ spells if they do. You dont' even need to optimize much to win an encounter with that.

[Magma Armor0]

1. Overall, I like the idea of a speed style system. However, as many have pointed out, there are a lot of balance issues with such a system.
2. How would surprise rounds work in this system? Do I get a full initiative round on my opponents if I ambush them?
3. What if we dropped the last round? Like after you take your turn, if your initiative-10 is 10 or less, you're done for the round. That would prevent the majority of low level extra turns from happening.

The way I see it, the vast majority just accepts that CON is never a dump stat as accepted fact. I feel like this would do the same for DEX. If you're okay with a more MAD game, then I like this, if we can fix the issues being discussed.

[Firest Kathon]

I suggest you take a look at the turn order system of Final Fantasy tactics.

I was so fascinated by it that when 3rd edition came out, all my games used a variant of it.

In short: Turns are divided with the actual Move-Standard. Taking a standard but not a move (and vice-versa) makes your next turn come faster, but not twice as fast.

Turns are taken in a endless sequence, instead of rounds. You are given a ''speed rating'', wich you will have to figure out. A blunt example could be your dex value + 1d4. So for example, a 13 dex character rolls 1, he'll act with a speed of 14.

Act
1
2
3
4
.....
14: Act again, roll 13 +1 again.
15
16
......
28 act again


Adding another character, the other one could act at 11-22-35 ect ect ect

Of course, this open a lot of things a munchkin will notice (the rise of the dex builds) that you have to look at. Just don't use dex, or whatever. I think there was speed rating for classes too, it is so far back...

The core of it, no matter how you stat it, is to have turns be in a infinite sequence instead of rounds, where a faster character will slowly, over many turns, play one more turn over others.

Unless I understand something wrong, that works just the wrong way around: A character will less Dexterity will act more often:

C1: Dex 10, C2: Dex 15, assume both roll 1 every time

1
2
...
10 C1
...
15 C2
...
20 C1
...
30 C1, C2
...
40 C1
...
45 C2

[Snowbluff]

"Levels in Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight are pretty good. We've found that being able to cast 3 times around is pretty sweet."

Not to mention almost all dex based classes are 3/4 BAB, and the good Str ones are Full.

[Squirrel_Dude]

1. Overall, I like the idea of a speed style system. However, as many have pointed out, there are a lot of balance issues with such a system.
2. How would surprise rounds work in this system? Do I get a full initiative round on my opponents if I ambush them?
3. What if we dropped the last round? Like after you take your turn, if your initiative-10 is 10 or less, you're done for the round. That would prevent the majority of low level extra turns from happening.For number 2: Maybe have surprise give you a flat bonus to your initiative score?

For number 3. I think this problem is more likely caused by the d20 than anything else. It just has too high of variance for something that could provide this large of a bonus.

[Feint's End]

This sounds almost exactly the same as the system used in Shadowrun (the most recent iteration that is). With the difference being that the dice is not as big (you start with a single d6 and can get a few more with various ways) and that the Boni are not that high.

Basically it looks like this: Reaction + Intuition + 1d6 (where the attributes usually range from 1 to 6)

The problem with what you suggesting is that first off the variable is way too big (d20) and the Boni from a lot of sources are a. too high and b. Too easy to obtain.

It would shift the necessity for good in I at I've even further up than it already is. Improved initiative would be mandatory. Everybody would start investing as much as possible in initiative.

Don't get me wrong ... I love the way initiative works in shadowrun. We are talking about a whole different system though and to make it work in the context of 3.P would take enormous amounts of work ... to the point where you might start playing another system all together.

[Telok]

I play with a guy that we refer to as the initative whore. Even he refers to himself that way. By level twelve his casters usually have a +25 or so to initative. He will scrimp and save to get a Belt of Battle asap because he loves dropping two metamagiced acid storms at initative 35 first thing in a combat.

[Squirrel_Dude]

This sounds almost exactly the same as the system used in Shadowrun (the most recent iteration that is). With the difference being that the dice is not as big (you start with a single d6 and can get a few more with various ways) and that the Boni are not that high.

Basically it looks like this: Reaction + Intuition + 1d6 (where the attributes usually range from 1 to 6).Mmhm.

The only way to get a higher score than that in meatspace is either through Adept Powers, Mage spells, or extremely expensive augs like Wired Reflexes.

[Honest Tiefling]

What if you ruled that Improved Initiative granted better bonuses based on your dexterity modifier? Or that classes that tend to rely heavily on dex (Swashbuckler, Rogue, etc.) got this feat for free?

[ohil]

I think wizards would enjoy it my 3rd level wizard had a initiative of +12 that meant a 20 something average each time.

[Squirrel_Dude]

What if you ruled that Improved Initiative granted better bonuses based on your dexterity modifier? Or that classes that tend to rely heavily on dex (Swashbuckler, Rogue, etc.) got this feat for free?Every character pumps dexterity. Some wizards might even do it because free feats are pretty good. Monsters in the bestiary get wrecked.

[Feint's End]

What if you ruled that Improved Initiative granted better bonuses based on your dexterity modifier? Or that classes that tend to rely heavily on dex (Swashbuckler, Rogue, etc.) got this feat for free?

The whole problem is already that raising Initiative is too accessible via all kind of ressources so making it even better and easier to access will only worsen the problem (to the point of dex being either first or second priority for everybody).

No. This system won't work. Unless you do a major overhaul on how you can get initiative boni. Squirrel_Dude has already mentioned it but Shadowrun solves it quite elegantly with very few and expensive ways of boosting it. And even then it's not gonna be overly massive. Even the most optimised Adepts don't look above 20 in early levels and 30 later on. In D&D where you can get much, much higher than that with every class the whole system just breaks in.

[The Random NPC]

Unless I understand something wrong, that works just the wrong way around: A character will less Dexterity will act more often:
...
That's because the system doesn't quite work the way it's described. What actually happens is your Speed stat is divided into 100, and a Charge Time gauge is filled by that number every tick. Once you reach 100, it's your turn. If you act and move, your Gauge is reset to 0, if you only act or move, it's reset to 20, if you do neither, it's reset to 40. As with your example, C1 will act every 10th tick, while C2 will act every 14/3 tick (or about every 7th tick). Eventually, C2 will act twice between C1's turns.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, something like that could work, depending on how big of a bonus you get and what you divide it into. Or if you want to keep the die roll a part of it, change the bonus to a malus and have them go every 1dx-y ticks.