Fire Caster Help (optimizing fireball level originally)

[j_spencer93]

Ok just for giggles, im trying to optimize fireball bast by a fire specialist mage (if you have see any of my past post you will know most likely). I need a way to reduce its level and maybe more flame centric metamagics for it. Maybe even a PRC focused on fire (a caster obviously) or a PRC good at boosting a blaster build WITHOUT going overboard.

Metamagic: Blistering (+1), Searing (+1), Fiery (+1), Explosive (+2), Radiant (+2), Maximized (+3), Empowered (+2)

Items: Dragon Ruby (widens fire spells)

Feats: Arcane Thesis (For one spell, total up metamagic applied and reduce adjustment by equal amount), Easy Metamagic (-1 to a selected metamagic's cost), Metamagic School Focus (reduce metamagic cost by -1 for school chosen by Spell Focus), Mastery of Ice and Fire (auto enlarge cold or fire spells)


That is ten feats already and a increased spell level of +12 which obviously is way to high (would be a 15th level spell) with only a reduction of 8 so looking at a 6th level fireball (which isnt bad). With ten levels of incantatrix, as far as i can tell, it would be back down to a level 3 spell.

Also i would love suggestions for fire themed feats/classes to boost my blasting powers.

[icefractal]

Looks like a 6th level spell to me, assuming you applied Easy Metamagic to one of the +2 or higher ones.
L3 + 1 (radiant) + 1 (explosive) + 2 (maximized) + 1 (empowered) - 1 (easy) - 1 (school focus), unless I'm forgetting something?

Also, if you're willing to be a little cheesy, then any +0 Metamagic you can get will reduce the level even farther (not below 3rd). Whether it's worth swapping Metamagic School Focus (only usable 3/day, IIRC) depends on how much you plan to use exclusively fireball vs other evocation spells.

[Seerow]

Don't forget Metamagic Rods. I think you may even be able to get away with using Lesser rods, since you're not heightening the Fireball, it's still a 3rd level spell.


Also, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, and Energy Admixture all tend to be very nice because they each double the effective damage dice.

Residual Magic is also nice because it makes it so if you cast another fireball the next round, you can apply 1 free metamagic that was applied to the previous one. So you prepare a Twinned Repeating Admixtured Fireball, and a Twinned Maximized Empowered Fireball.

And for more metamagic reduction, Incanatrix is a great prestige class. It also gives you some more metamagic feats.

[j_spencer93]

what all does incantarix give you? and repeating sounds awesome alongside residual metamagic so ill have to look those up. And after looking at it, it would have been a level 6. My mistake. Are there any more fire themed metamagics out there?

[Seerow]

Incantatrix is from Magic of Faerun, full casting progression, 3 metamagic feats over 10 levels, 2/day apply a metamagic feat for free, and reduce cost of every metamagic feat applied metamagic by 1 (minimum 1). Plus some other minor stuff.



As far as fire themed metamagics specifically, Searing spell, from Sandstorm, makes your fire spells so hot you don't care about fire resistance, and still deal half damage to fire immune creatures.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wasn't the Incantatrix updated in Player's Guide to Faerun?

[j_spencer93]

Interesting. Was really looking for a way to pump the dice some more on the fireball while reducing the level but incantarix can handle the reducing level part and should allow a few levels for a damage increasing spell class. Does anyone know of one? Seriously i can find neither, a fire based mage prc or a blaster focused prc.

[Seerow]

Wasn't the Incantatrix updated in Player's Guide to Faerun?

Apparently yes.

Looking over the updated version, it changed a lot, but the important part (the free and reduced metamagic) is still there.

[j_spencer93]

Ok thanks. Which is better for this dweomerkeeper or incantatrix?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Interesting. Was really looking for a way to pump the dice some more on the fireball while reducing the level but incantarix can handle the reducing level part and should allow a few levels for a damage increasing spell class. Does anyone know of one? Seriously i can find neither, a fire based mage prc or a blaster focused prc.

Reserves of Strength from Dragonlance Campaign Setting can boost your CL beyond a spell's maximum. Bracelet of Secrets from the KoK Player's Guide (the official 3.0 one, not the unofficial 3.5 one), gives a +1 boost to DC for 2k. Both have the "Wizard's product" stamp but are 3rd party, so I lump them in with Dragon Magazine content in terms of permissibility, but YMMV.

Edit: Incantatrix is definitely better; it is easier to get in to and the ability to add metamagic effects to spells after the fact (or to an ally's spell as it is cast) is amazing. Dweomerkeeper's shtick is best for buffs, which you are not focusing on, or at levels where you want to bypass the expensive parts of spells.

[j_spencer93]

we use third party material. but as DM i say what we use and do not use. Kalamar we use. And thanks for explaining their differences to me.

So far it would be back down to a third level spell then right?

[(Un)Inspired]

Energy admixture can be added to double your damage if you're willing to do more than just fire damage.

Try dropping an energy substituted (fire) creaking cocophany before your fireball to make the creature vulnerable to fire for 150% damage.

[j_spencer93]

for this character purely fire damage (part of a group of elemental mages) and will be fought in a tournament. that idea is freaking awesome though

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Easy Metamagic itself is considered a metamagic feat, so it interacts with the level reduction of Arcane Thesis. It can be taken multiple times, just not applied to the same metamagic feat multiple times.

Human Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 4, two flaws, that's ten feats total, three of which are bonus metamagic feats. You can get the Iron Will prerequisite for Incantatrix via the Otyugh Hole instead of spending a feat on it.

Dragon Ruby (+0, doubles the area without applying an actual metamagic, single use, gold cost)
Lesser Rod of Maximize (+0, 3/day, gold cost, limit one metamagic rod)
Empower (+2, feat)
Blistering (+1, feat)
Searing (+1, feat)
Fiery (+1, feat)
Twin + Easy Metamagic (+3, two feats)
Radiant + Easy Metamagic (+1, two feats)

That's a total of +9 levels, with nine metamagic feats applied, so it's cast from a 3rd level spell slot, and it costs you eight of your ten feats and a few items.

Mastery of Ice and Fire costs you two feats, since it requires Enlarge Spell, and it increases its range from ~800 ft. to ~1600 ft. You have a -80 to your Spot checks to see opponents 800 ft. away, or -160 to spot opponents 1600 ft. away. I don't think this will ever see any use at all, and it's especially not worth spending two feats on.

Add on Sanctum Spell and it makes it count as a 2nd level spell instead of a 3rd level spell. That's also one extra metamagic feat, and even post-errata Arcane Thesis can reduce it to a 2nd level spell slot since it counts as an actual 2nd level spell, though your DC and Blistering Spell take a hit.

Add on Reserves of Strength from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting for a caster level bonus, and it has the added benefit of removing the spell's level-based caps. For example at level 11 you can use this to add +1 caster level and your Fireball will deal 12d6 base damage. At 20th level you can use this to deal 21d6 with that same Fireball. I'd also get Quick Recovery if you take this, so you only lose a move-action instead of an entire turn or more.

[Flickerdart]

If you're starting this from early levels, consider grabbing a few of the CL-boosting feats you can then retrain once you hit the cap. Bloodline of Fire is great (+2) and Fiery Burst (+1) is useful thanks to its reserve feat function as well as the boost to your fireballs. There are loads of generic boosters and items (like Arcanist's Gloves or Ring of Mystic Fire) too.

[(Un)Inspired]

for this character purely fire damage (part of a group of elemental mages) and will be fought in a tournament. that idea is freaking awesome though

I can dig that. I would have each one open with an energy substituted creaking cacophony tuned to their element however.

It could give them a touch of stylistic unity and ups their damage dramatically.

[Isiloki]

You also have reserve of strength. 1/day you can add up to 3CL to a spell, bypassing the spell cap level limit (meaning you can have 13d6 damage), but you're stunned up to 3 rounds after the cast.

[j_spencer93]

In our campaign we give out flaws at ever odd level so that would be ten feats without bonus feats. And we allow two flaws so there is a total of 12 feats.

Reserve of strength and quick recovery sound nice. Thought of blood line of fire and fiery burst, will try to fit them in.

Energy substituted creaking cocophony sounds like a great idea, think my players wount be to pleased meeting that idea though lol. IT would give them a sense of unity. Each is made to be fought 1 on 1 by a player though.

[Hiro Quester]

Hopefully you have some way of being immune to fire.

Never underestimate the dramatic effect of casting your massive empowered blistering searing radiant fiery fireball centered on yourself, and then just calmly walking out of the center of the flames, unscathed.

Edit: and check out dragon 314. The whole issue is devoted to different elements.
The fire section has many goodies, including the fire-souled template (grants fire subtype), gauntlets that add your charisma bonus in fire damage to melee attacks, and a class that advances casting and uses bardic music to grant free metamagics.

[j_spencer93]

working on that actually (sounds freaking awesome right?), was thinking maybe a class (but cant find any good ones) or maybe a template (half fire elemental but doesnt grant immunity, however fire-souled creature does but little other of use)

[Hiro Quester]

working on that actually (sounds freaking awesome right?), was thinking maybe a class (but cant find any good ones) or maybe a template (half fire elemental but doesnt grant immunity, however fire-souled creature does but little other of use)

Check out the fire-souled template. A copy is here (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/firesouled.shtml).

In my previous character, a bard 10/sublime chord2/heartfire fanner8, (with a pyroclastic dragon as an ancestor for dragonfire inspiration), my DM let me take a slightly underpowered version of the fire souled template by extending the HFF's five levels to eight levels, and granting the benefits of the template gradually (while still advancing casting). Except leadership. That was very fun to play.

I got to cast fireball on myself twice. Win.

Edit: ninjad.

[Rebel7284]

If spontaneous divination makes you count as a spontaneous caster, take a look at Practical Metamagic. Practical Metamagic + Easy Metamagic can be stacked. Pretty nice when applied to something like Twin Spell or Quicken Spell or both. :)

Being a silverbrow human gives you the dragonblood subtype you need.

[Darrin]

Don't forget lesser fireball (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20020227a) (bottom of the page).

[j_spencer93]

As DM i can give him fire-souled template for free. Silverbrowed idea doesnt sound bad ill look into it. and lesser fireball? NVM i already have that in my OneNote of spells.

[j_spencer93]

I would really rather have a cooler or more thematic template then fire-souled however if it is the only thing there is i guess it will have to do.

Now which would be better Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warmage? Remember this is to increase the damage of my fire spells only.

[afroakuma]

If you'd like some real nonsense, consider adding this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?202506-Single-Spell-Specialists-%283-5-PrC%29) to the mix. :smalltongue:

[sideswipe]

one of my favourite meta magic reductions is to gain control of a bunch of undead, cram them into a bag of holding and use the undead battery metamagic reduction to cast your spells, you could do this as a prepared caster i believe during spell preparation. use very small 1hd undead (preferably under your control) to absorb.

[j_spencer93]

actually for home brew i kinda like that class and it fits so think i will be using it.

[ericgrau]

I'd get something to deal with SR by level 8-10, such as assay spell resistance if allowed. It seems like it would be if you're allowed that many metamagic reducers. If not, then something else.

[j_spencer93]

well since this is a NPC and i am the DM there are few things not allowed. That being said, i am afraid if i make it easier for him to bypass SR it might make the players a little to easily killed.

[ericgrau]

Oh dang poor party. Parties do not like area spells. Don't TPK. But OTOH if they optimize like you do then they may be fine. Or it could be rocket tag.

[j_spencer93]

Well i am allowing this party alot of chances to become OP. like a ten floor dungeon with a wish granted from clearing each floor and had no race restrictions/complete LA buy off (they did not take advantage of this though). So really making it able to bypass SR wouldnt be completely unfair just so far they havent be utilizing the wishes as anticipated.

[sideswipe]

Well i am allowing this party alot of chances to become OP. like a ten floor dungeon with a wish granted from clearing each floor and had no race restrictions/complete LA buy off (they did not take advantage of this though). So really making it able to bypass SR wouldnt be completely unfair just so far they havent be utilizing the wishes as anticipated.

then they don't want to be OP as they know the enemies will be OP.

trying to force the party to become stronger because you want to fire optimised enemies at them is not a good road to take....

[j_spencer93]

think i might have stated that wrong. my players know the NPCs at the end are stronger then normal, nothing terribly OP still. And my players aren't really that weak themselves either, it's just that the wish mechanic is being taken a different way then i intended. The free LA was specifically for two players of mine. One loves the Fey'ri, and one loves large brute monstrous humanoids. So made that rule so they could use them without penalty. However, and to much surprise, only the Fey'ri player utilized it.
My third player however is a pretty thought out Stormcaster who so far is dominating the show. I am a little afraid that they think i will just create stronger NPCs the stronger they become, however that is not true since all of them are already created except for two who just need their finishing touches.

[ericgrau]

Hmm then instead of assuming they think such and such, I would straight up tell them "I am expecting you to become OP in this campaign. Go all out. Especially for the later foes." If anything most people assume the opposite. Or even if they already know it doesn't hurt. Just be open so there's no confusion.

[j_spencer93]

ok, told them. Now just to see how they end up.

[j_spencer93]

are then any races that boost fire spells?