Building a Custom Cosmology (almost)

[Baptor]

Playground, I need help!

So I am a DM running Realms in 5e. My players are just about high enough level that they will be stepping into planar travel, so its about high time I nail down a Cosmology for my games.

Here's my conundrum.

I'm a traditionalist, so I don't want to ditch the Great Wheel. I love the planes as described in the manuals and all. The only issue is that the planes are, by and large, so....how can I say this....strict.

I mean if you spend too long in Mount Celestia, you actually turn LG. Even if you ignore that, what's there to do in Mount Celestia...grab a divine cup of coffee?

Even the planes where there's stuff to do are so strict about what can be done they would only be interesting for a brief visit and checking it off your Planeswalker Bingo chart.

What I really want to do is incorporate planes similar to those found in Magic the Gathering. Actual worlds that simply have really odd quirks (like Mirrodin, a plane made of metal with no biological life) but ones with a living history that you could realistically visit. Kind of like visiting different planets in Star Wars.

Trouble is, the default Cosmology really doesn't leave room for these worlds. Either that or I'm finding it difficult where to place them.

Should I put these things in the Astral Plane? Should they be "alternate worlds" of the Material Plane? My issue with the former is that the Cosmology doesn't seem to like anything being in the Astral Plane but the occasional rock, and some of these worlds would truly defy the physics that the Material Plane seems to want intact.

Has anyone else done this? Anyone have any thoughts?

[JAL_1138]

There's always Spelljammer (dozens / hundreds of worlds suspended in the phlogiston, which is navigable via enchanted sailing ship).

The in-between planes that have multiple alignments (the beastlands, acheron, etc.) can be good. There are also cities in the Plane of Air that don't require flight to get around in, for example. The changes to the border elemental planes for 5th make them more viable to run cities in. And of course, there's Sigil and the Outlands. The "Sigil and Beyond" book in the box set from 2nd has some great locations.

The only ones I remember in 2e having any long-term effects were pandemonium (eventually drove people insane, no rules for it doing that to PCs that I remember) and the beastlands (eventually gave you animal characteristics). If staying in a plane too long changed your alignment, the Harmonium wouldn't have been able to pick up enough members to cause an entire layer of Arcadia to slide off into Mechanus to reflect the change in overall alignment in that layer, right...? The ocean of holy water around Mount Celestia would burn the living daylights out of evil creatures, though. The main "planar effects" were limits to spellcasting and items. Well, that and the Astral had you replace your STR with your INT, or something like that.

Is that something new for 5e, something they did in 3rd, or has it just been that long ('bout a decade admittedly) since I ran in Planescape? I don't recall it ever coming up except that time my bard sprouted mule ears on the Beastlands.

Edit: You can also stick demiplanes in. They're defined in size, compared to the infinite Planes, but that could still mean "planet-sized." Finite doesn't necessarily mean small.

Also edit: There's the border quasi-para-elemental the also-infinite border planes between the elemental planes, too, like "ash" or "ice."

[Rogue Shadows]

I too shall throw my support behind Spelljammer. I remember one campaign I ran there, my players fought a star. A literal star. It was full of Heartless. It may have been a Kingdom Hearts game with Spelljammers instead of Gummis, using a custom system modeled on Star Wars Saga Edition. Maybe.

The point is, there was a spelljammer, and there was a star, and it was using its own Dyson ring as a bludgeoning weapon. These things happen in Spelljammer.

Did I mention the players were level 4?

...

...DO IT.

[JAL_1138]

I too shall throw my support behind Spelljammer. I remember one campaign I ran there, my players fought a star. A literal star. It was full of Heartless. It may have been a Kingdom Hearts game with Spelljammers instead of Gummis, using a custom system modeled on Star Wars Saga Edition. Maybe.

The point is, there was a spelljammer, and there was a star, and it was using its own Dyson ring as a bludgeoning weapon. These things happen in Spelljammer.

Did I mention the players were level 4?

...

...DO IT.

In theory, it doesn't conflict with Planescape cosmology either, if you want to keep the Wheel going. Plus, Krynnish tinker gnomes? Those insane, bungling, exploding lunatics whose inventions never work? Once they're off of Krynn and thus no longer subject to Reorx's curse of sorts on them, all of their bat-guano insane ideas and inventions actually work. Think about that for a minute, and tremble in fear. :smalltongue:

[Baptor]

Is that something new for 5e, something they did in 3rd, or has it just been that long ('bout a decade admittedly) since I ran in Planescape? I don't recall it ever coming up except that time my bard sprouted mule ears on the Beastlands.

It must be. Most of the Outer Planes as described in the 5e DMG have a side effect that if you spend too long there you shift to the alignment of the plane.

I've thought of Spelljammer. If I went that route I'd have to completely overhaul it. Spelljammer as written was always a little too wacky 1980s for me. Also Spelljammer seemed to define them all as like legitimate planets in legitimate outer space. I was thinking more fantasy like. Some might be earth-spheres like Toril but others might be floating shards or hollow-worlds.

Demiplanes could work but the DMG describes them as small extradimensional spaces. The largest it says they get are "realms" like Barovia from Ravenloft. That makes me think "Texas sized" at most. (Or France sized for my Euro friends).

What makes this so difficult is that D&D has always made the Planes out to be places you'd visit by pure accident or necessity and things you'd want to get the heck out of as soon as possible. Even in the Planescape Setting it was made pretty clear that as a planeswalker you'd be staying in Sigil most of the time and doing only brief excursions into the Outer Planes due to their inhospitable environments.

One thing I liked about Magic or Star Wars (or anything similar) was that you could visit other worlds with completely different rules, cultures and quirks. Some of them might by physically tough (Tatooine, for instance) but they weren't "inhospitable." You could reasonably adventure there for long periods of time.

[JAL_1138]

It must be. Most of the Outer Planes as described in the 5e DMG have a side effect that if you spend too long there you shift to the alignment of the plane.

I've thought of Spelljammer. If I went that route I'd have to completely overhaul it. Spelljammer as written was always a little too wacky 1980s for me. Also Spelljammer seemed to define them all as like legitimate planets in legitimate outer space. I was thinking more fantasy like. Some might be earth-spheres like Toril but others might be floating shards or hollow-worlds.

Demiplanes could work but the DMG describes them as small extradimensional spaces. The largest it says they get are "realms" like Barovia from Ravenloft. That makes me think "Texas sized" at most. (Or France sized for my Euro friends).

What makes this so difficult is that D&D has always made the Planes out to be places you'd visit by pure accident or necessity and things you'd want to get the heck out of as soon as possible. Even in the Planescape Setting it was made pretty clear that as a planeswalker you'd be staying in Sigil most of the time and doing only brief excursions into the Outer Planes due to their inhospitable environments.

One thing I liked about Magic or Star Wars (or anything similar) was that you could visit other worlds with completely different rules, cultures and quirks. Some of them might by physically tough (Tatooine, for instance) but they weren't "inhospitable." You could reasonably adventure there for long periods of time.

In Spelljammer they're less planets in space and more crystal spheres with whole systems in them. You want a hollow world, just say the entire inside of this small crystal sphere is a world, or that the world in the middle of the sphere is a featureless ball that's hollow inside. You already sail between them on a magical schooner, make them as fantasy as you like. You don't have to run Spelljammer adventures directly, just yoink the general idea of "this is just another world in another crystal sphere out of thousands hanging in the phlogiston." For that matter, I think Mystara / the Known World (of BECMI / RC) was hollow, with a box set to that effect, but I never played it.

Planescape's published material did focus pretty hard on Sigil, but there were so many cities and divine realms on the outlands any of them could be a base to work from, or a homebrewed city on one of the more hospitable parts of another plane, or somewhere in Arborea, Bytopia, or Ysgard. Any of them work fine for a reasonably not-evil party to base out of. There was zilch "inhospitable" about those other than limits on magic. And in the outermost circle of the Outlands there isn't even much of that. Ysgard even gives you a get-out-of-jail free card in the event of a TPK if you're setting the campaign in it entirely--you get killed, you just wake up the next morning and go fight some more ((EDIT: Only works with petitioners and maybe natives, but can be handwaved)). I've played whole adventures that never went to Sigil once in Planescape, although a lot of the material had to be homebrewed admittedly. There were a couple of published modules that didn't require a trip to Sigil, like Tales from the Infinite Staircase.

As for the size of demiplanes, the DMG is mostly a collection of ideas to use or tweak as you desire, not the rule of law. If you're brewing up new worlds anyway, there's no reason to say they don't get bigger if a god decides to make one instead of sticking to the established planes, or that this crystal sphere doesn't work differently from Krynn or Toril, or that this planet-sized region of this elemental plane only works one way.

Take what you like, scrap what you don't, tweak the rest to how you want it. You want to make Tatooine...that's actually probably part of a border plane, and so is Hoth, and Yavin IV or Endor are probably in Arborea somewhere. But otherwise...just make them, call 'em other crystal spheres, and you're done. I don't really see the difficulty if you're making new planets from scratch in the first place. Also, the likelihood your players are spelljammer fanatics who'll nitpick the details is nil. And if they are spelljammer fanatics, they'll most likely look at anything weird and unusual and go "cool, let's go."

[Sjappo]

You love the Great Wheel, but you find the planes presented in it too strict and are, most probably, not going to use them for your planar travel adventures. Not much point on having the Great Wheel in that case, is there?

Anyway, I think it would be quite easy to refluff the Great Wheel to be more useful to you. Start with ditching the sliding alignment. It's an optional rule anyway. And no way a Devil or Demon is going to shift to LG on Mt. Celestia. Refluff the layers as being a series of interconnecting planet-like objects and feel free to introduce new "layers" that fit your need. Done.

[pwykersotz]

Sounds like you need to take a trip to Afroakuma's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265884-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread!-(You-ask-I-ll-answer)) Planar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272393-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-II!) Question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?299450-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-III!) Threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317316-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-IV). (And the fifth one!) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317316-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-IV) They're all in the 3.5 forums, but it maintains pretty strict focus on cosmology rather than edition, as evidenced by the vast amount of 2e stuff that gets referenced.

The planes are much less boring than you imagine. The Astral, for example, has a lot going on. There are cities and creatures galore. To cut to the chase though, if you're not into Spelljammer and you want "other worlds" like Mirrodin, you might be best served by the Plane of Shadow. It links alternate worlds with alternate cosmologies and completely different rules, and the Plane of Shadow is rich with intrigue itself.

If you want to use the planes to do this without bringing in alternate material planes, There's always room! The planes are infinite, and so literally everything can happen. This applies to the Prime Material Plane too. And if it just doesn't seem to fit, custom cosmologies can be as easy as you want them to be. "There is a strange place where a Wall of Iron stands. Once every 700 years, the iron becomes liquid, and is believed to be a gateway to a world that overlaps our own." Bam, done.

I hope this helps!

[Fwiffo86]

Spelljammer.

Hehe, Star Trek via D&D.

[mephnick]

I find the elemental planes really boring. I do sort of what JAL suggests and cherry-pick the few I find interesting and use them as different worlds to travel to. Beastlands, Feywild etc.

I'd love to make my own but it's hard enough keeping one world straight.

[Joe the Rat]

What they did with the wheel here was take most of that "too 1990's" gritty cosmopolitanism that made the place where all souls go to rest, and the Powers That Be.... er, Be and turned them into travel spots with weird gravity and interesting cuisine and denizens of varying levels of overt danger. They're all actually dangerous, they just don't always look it.

The outer planes (and their residents) are literally made of their constituent alignments. The metaphysics of alignment are the physics of the planes. The very nature of the place is going to saturate you if you stay long enough. You think that's air you're breathing?

Of course, that's just what they're selling. It's your game. Make it the way you like.

Here's some ideas I've been toying with (spoilered for length):

Gate Towns, Near and Far Layers Take a cue from the Elemental Planes. Define part of the planes as being "near" - closer to the Outlands, more of a mixture of properties, less "pure," so you have the feel and properties of the Plane without exposing players to dangerous levels of background morality. Several Planes come in Layers; the first one is (relatively) mortal-friendly, but delving deeper for longer periods can be dangerous. You can even treat the Gate towns as a stepping stone in this regard. As a consequence, you can also get so Deep into the planes that it can become somewhat Far Realm-like in its axiomatic/chaotic/beneficent/malevolent qualities. Remember, this is where mortals are not meant to tread.

The Road to Jigoku is Paved with 1,000 Generations of Corrupted Jade Taking a page from L5R. Yes, the Outer Planes will mess you up. There's all sorts of nasty things out there ready to warp your mind and body to better "fit in." If you've got to go, take protection. Have some sort of item or substance that helps the characters resist the effects of the planes themselves (but not necessarily the residents). Divine protection is thematic, but you could also use mementos, fingers of minerals, tattoos, space mead, whatever fits your style. Bonus points if this wears off over time, with the plane "corrupting" the token rather than the character.

You know, it seems silly to add another transitive medium for "outer space" when you already have one full of stars. Spelljammer, only in the Astral Plane. You've got magic flying ships that can pass out of the material space and into the Astral. Some, maybe all of those star-like points of light are stars, or suns, or the center of some Material Plane. Cross over, and find yourself just inside the crystal sphere / orrery cage / Oort cloud / aethereal envelope. But it takes something special to cross that threshold, sort of like an escape velocity in both directions, or that the Astral is like Hyperspace, and you need to open a portal or somehow "jump" from Material to Astral and back. This makes those ships something special - they can cross over to material worlds by being in the right location and pushing, rather than relying on color pools or pure magic to rip a hole in reality.

Having some really "odd" demiplanes accessible this way can give you very esoteric realms to go to. Heck, combine this with the above. Plus think of all the fun of doing one of those "go find the party member who got donjoned by a Deck of Many Things" adventures by hiring a boat and sailing off the end of the world. Being able to "sail" to Mount Celestia might make things interesting in a whole new way. And now I want to add docks to the edges of Sigil. Beware the center.

This also means you'll have Illithid Nautiluses cruising around the same medium as the githyanki, and have the equivalent of asteroid bases built on the backs of dead gods. Doesn't that sound like fun?

You could also do something similar with the Ethereal Plane, with the supposition that it is a single plane that touches all realities. Feel free to invoke weird dimensions to explain why a trip from the Plane of Water to the Plane of Fire is shorter than one between Realmspace and Krynnspace, if it fits your plans. This one might evoke more "sailing into the unknown" than "space boats" which could be good or bad depending on your preferences

[Baptor]

Ok, thanks for the input so far guys. I'm still kinda undecided. It's sad that so much devotion has gone into the Great Wheel cosmology this edition in not one but TWO of the core books. I'd feel more comfortable ruling a new cosmo in were it not for that. That and stinking tradition, I'm a hopeless traditionalist.

That said, this guy pretty much nails why I don't like the Great Wheel here. (http://blogofholding.com/?p=3908) His best line is,


Sigil: The ultimate urban adventure location, Sigil connects to all the other planes, but why would you want to go to any of them? They're all worse than Sigil.

The only thing appealing about Planescape is Sigil. Everything else is nowhere near as interesting as the city that's supposed to serve as a gateway to all those interesting places. I once knew an old school DM who never allowed Sigil into his games because, "Once anyone went there, they didn't want to go anywhere else." So Kudos to whoever invented Sigil, but the other planes are boring.

If anything I'd like to do the World-Axis Cosmology or even the Orrery Cosmo where the planes are nice and neat and there could be countless worlds.

[JAL_1138]

The only thing appealing about Planescape is Sigil. Everything else is nowhere near as interesting as the city that's supposed to serve as a gateway to all those interesting places. I once knew an old school DM who never allowed Sigil into his games because, "Once anyone went there, they didn't want to go anywhere else." So Kudos to whoever invented Sigil, but the other planes are boring.


I never had this experience...pretty often Sigil was where we went to buy weapons, buy spells, find replacement characters (we died a lot), learn rumors, and find out what our factions (if we were in them) needed us to do somewhere else. It was often a home base of sorts and we did have several adventures set mostly in it, but more frequently it was The City of Doors, used to get to places less full of poverty, soot, politics, and whatnot, and with more dungeons, wilderness, and things to kill (and take their stuff), and general weirdness.

One of the towns you (admittedly briefly) visit in the Astral Plane in "Tales From The Infinite Staircase" looks like this:

http://uo-planescape.wdfiles.com/local--files/piano-astrale/TorNav-roc_on_the_Astral-2632_(1998-05)_WOTC_TSR_AD&D_2ed_Planescape_Adventure_Collection_-_Tales_From_the_Infinite_Staircase.jpg


Sigil has a lot going for it, but it's not the only thing.

[Knaight]

Ok, thanks for the input so far guys. I'm still kinda undecided. It's sad that so much devotion has gone into the Great Wheel cosmology this edition in not one but TWO of the core books. I'd feel more comfortable ruling a new cosmo in were it not for that. That and stinking tradition, I'm a hopeless traditionalist.

Lots of things have plenty of devotion going into them. You're not using plenty of things that are works of passion, it might as well be that particular work of passion that joins them.

[Myzz]

if you have reading time and can find them check out the references at the bottom of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)


References[edit]
Jump up ^ http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eb/20040309a
Jump up ^ Gygax, Gary (July 1977). "Planes: The Concepts of Spatial, Temporal and Physical Relationships in D&D". The Dragon #8 (TSR) I (8): 4.
Jump up ^ Gygax, Gary (1978). Players Handbook. TSR. ISBN 0-935696-01-6.
Jump up ^ Cook, “Zeb” David, Designer. Planescape Campaign Setting: A DM Guide to the Planes. Ed. David Wise. Lake Geneva, Wisconsin: TSR, Inc., 1994. Print.
Jump up ^ Cappellini, Matt (November 30, 2000). "Blockbusters Make Christmas Bright". The Beacon News (Aurora, Illinois). Retrieved November 21, 2012. – via HighBeam Research (subscription required)
Jump up ^ http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MonstersG.rtf
Jump up ^ http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Planes.rtf
Jump up ^ http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/SpellsD-E.rtf
Jump up ^ Davis, Graeme (November 1986). "Open Box: Master Rules". White Dwarf (review) (Games Workshop) (83): 4.
Jump up ^ http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20081117a
Jump up ^ http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/MoP_ToC.pdf
Jump up ^ http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20081201
Jump up ^ Manual of the Planes (2008)
Cook, David (1989). Player's Handbook. TSR. ISBN 0-88038-716-5.
Cordell, Bruce R; Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel (2004). Planar Handbook. Wizards of the Coast. ISBN 0-7869-3429-8.
Grubb, Jeff (1987). Manual of the Planes. TSR. ISBN 0-88038-399-2.
Grubb, Jeff; Bruce R. Cordell and David Noonan (2001). Manual of the Planes. Wizards of the Coast. ISBN 0-7869-1850-0.
Ward, James M; Kuntz, Robert J. (1980). Deities & Demigods. TSR. ISBN 0-935696-22-9.

You only need to really flesh out the ones they are going to go to... and as the DM you kind of can control that...

In my games I usually use the Forgotten Realms Pantheon and the whole wheel idea of the cosmos, but only flesh the parts that I know they are going to be going. Once we spent 4 gaming sessions in Kord's Eternal Battleground to level (one of our first campaigns in 3.5, and we just wanted to try epic characters...) We could have stayed longer, but the theater of it was starting to wear thin...

<btw I had never, EVER killed PC's as frequently or as interestingly as when they were there...>

[randomodo]

There is no inherent conflict in what you want to do. The prime material can play host to an infinite number of different worlds, and they don't have to be spheres orbiting around a giant plasma reactor.

They're alternate worlds, plain and simple. Call them "planes" if you must, call them planets, or worlds or whatever you like.