PDA

View Full Version : DM Help Seeking outside DMing assistance



Silus
2015-01-14, 03:21 AM
So me and some guys are gearing up (slowly) for a Friday game down the road and as DM I've some questions of a not-really-tied-together-at-all nature that I wanted to bounce off the more experienced DMs here.

Also, for those that are involved in the Barrier World campaign planning thing, I'd appreciate it if you stayed out 'cause spoilers.




Okay so one of the guys in the group is kinda a stickler for the rules. Not like Rules Lawyer, but defiantly adheres pretty harshly to the rules. Now in general I don't have any issues with him minus some butting of heads now and then on the whole story vs rules argument, but that's where this problem lies.

As DM, I want some magic items, in this case Elixir of Sex Shift, to be uncraftable. The reason for this is because 1) I don't see the players opting to make said Elixir on their own anyway, and 2) because I've an adventure hook in mind that involves finding some. However the aforementioned player insists up and down that, regardless of the DM saying "No you can't craft them because <various reasons including lost recipe>", they can be crafted as you only need a feat, the money and a Polymorph spell. That issue eventually got resolved (by me having to spill the beans just so he understood why) but I'd like to handle any future such incidents in such a way where I don't have to reveal any plot secrets.

Essentially, how do you make a Rule 0 ruling stick without giving away explicitly the "why"?


Okay so this one is kinda a two-part question.

I've got this section of world planned out that is essentially a "dead" continent. No life as far as anyone can tell, the cities are still pristine but the streets are scary empty. Long story short, the people didn't vanish, they were turned into undead that only show up in the light (Like the ghosts in the Metro games) and can only be killed/banished by bright light like sunlight (and as the continent is perma-overcast, it's BYO-Sunlight). Single digit HP and are one-shot by a Daylight spell (if within ~10ft of the origin of the spell), but there is an absurd number and they all hit like Shadows.

So the questions are:
1) How do you keep the encounter/exploration appropriately tense? Ideally (as in never going to happen but it would be nice if things worked out) the players will have ~10 "Dayrods" which are like Sunrods but can shave an hour off for a burst of Daylight (so ~60 uses for the entire party) and have to use them strategically to both spot and kill hordes of these undead. However once the players realize that it's undead and sunlight hurts them, I imagine all sorts of subversive shenanigans like "Well I cast Daylight on my shield" or "I channel positive and kill everything in 30ft" or "I rebuke undead and now I control the horde".

2) Should the players learn of the whole "The light lets you see, but it also lets them see you" bit, and all somehow have access to Darkvision, how as the DM can I keep them from going full dark and avoiding all light while keeping the creatures acting as written?


Short and sweet, how can I impress upon the players that certain NPCs, if challenged/attacked, will mop the floor with them? Like "Guys, I know you're pretty anti-establishment, but it's probably NOT a good idea to pick a fight with the shotgun-wielding cybernetic Centaur sheriff".


Okay so ties into question #2, specifically with the location.

Got an idea for the hook to actually get the PCs over there (as nobody ever actually goes over to the dead continent for ability-draining-undead-type-reasons) and it's based off a song, though I'm not 100% on how to work the actual lyrics into the whole "how do we resolve this". Actually on second thought it's less of a proper hook and more a leading up to a proper hook.

Anyway, the song is Beauty of Dawn from the Elder Scrolls Online (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3i-sps1I24):

A serpent lights the ancient sky
A threat of tainted stars
Evil stirs and in its wake
The souls of mortals sway

Sorrow reigns
Over fields of red
Spirits pace
Through the shadows cast by their graves

These are days and nights of venom and blood
Heroes will rise as the anchors fall
Brave the strife, reclaim every soul
That belongs to the Beauty of Dawn

Darkness strikes to blind the strong
But Faith will guide our swords
Loyal hearts we'll stand as one
And fight with shields of Hope

Pride fuels the deadly fire
That devours our tower of gold
The drums of war will rage and roar
‘Til the sun burns bright once more

These are days and nights of venom and blood
Heroes will rise as the anchors fall
Brave the strife, reclaim every soul
That belongs to the Beauty of Dawn.

Anyway the short history of the area is that pre-apocalypse it was a magical national superpower in comparison to their northern neighbors who favored tech. Stuff happened, war broke out, and the magical nation, in a "I'm taking you with me" unleashed a sort of Wight-pocalypse that backfired. In a single night, everyone vanished and those that went to investigate never returned. Turns out that the four leaders of the nation, now Liches/Ghosts/Lich-Ghosts had inadvertently turned everyone into incorporeal undead and are keeping their souls hostage as a sort of "screw you we won the war and now we'll rule forever" (Undeath makes you cray cray apparently). Anyway, so this faction comprised of the few remaining Psychopomps (see: Grim reaper type creatures) and their mortal "worshippers" have an issue with this, as their main job is to ensure that all souls pass onto the hearafter. However, their supply lines have been cut and they don't have the numbers (or the reinforcements) to slay the undead sorcerer kings/queens themselves. And as the sorcerer kings/queens are pretty up there in CR, fighting them all isn't really in the cards (possible, but expect HEAVY losses). That's where the prophecy comes in as a work-around.

Ideally fulfilling the prophecy/doing what the song says will either sever the ties of the undead to the sorcerer kings/queens and weaken them, or simply directly weaken them and killing them will bring down the whole...undead...controlling...thing.

Problem is, I'm kinda tapped for ideas.

aspekt
2015-01-14, 03:45 AM
It sounds like a common thread in your questions has to do with making sure everyone is on board with a particular approach or playstyle in this campaign.

If your players simply flatout refuse to go along with the story and style there's not much you can do but modify the campaign. They will simply wear you down with arguments and disagreements. Which is no fun for anyone.

Sell them on the story. Sell them on the idea that this world is new and may resemble other game worlds but it isn't and some aspects will be different.

I know this seems like a generic answer but I really think it gets to the core underlying issue you're facing.

Good luck!

Silus
2015-01-14, 04:39 AM
It sounds like a common thread in your questions has to do with making sure everyone is on board with a particular approach or playstyle in this campaign.

If your players simply flatout refuse to go along with the story and style there's not much you can do but modify the campaign. They will simply wear you down with arguments and disagreements. Which is no fun for anyone.

Sell them on the story. Sell them on the idea that this world is new and may resemble other game worlds but it isn't and some aspects will be different.

I know this seems like a generic answer but I really think it gets to the core underlying issue you're facing.

Good luck!

Oh very true. I think I've still got some sort of, like "Oh God everything will go off the rails and I'll be struggling to keep up" mentality from the last time I properly DMed. I'm thinking with practice it'll get better.

Honestly, as we're still looking for players, I'm kinda hoping we can land us some ones that aren't as jaded as my last (well second to last) group and will be like "Okay so this world is different" and not "Nope, this world is too different".

Nagash
2015-01-14, 05:04 AM
Your sunlight problem is easy.

Make them TERRIFIED TO USE SUN SPELLS.

They are attacked by one or two, they see others zipping in and out of walls, in the distance, hear them howling, OMG how many sunrods do we have left???????

Make every choice to use one or fight traditionally a gripping struggle, use a 30 second shot clock on player actions. No group discussions ad infinitum on what you do with your 6 second round.

Your describing survival horror. Decisions must be made in a flash, resources must be harvested and guarded. One bad decision and your all dead (they're not but create that feeling).

And act like a brutal, heartless, rat bastard of a GM. Tell them off the bat you will fudge nothing, they live and die by the dice. (dont really do this, hide well and fudge rarely) make them feel like you are there to kill them horribly. That will make them appreciate victories more.

This sort of game is about mystery (what the heck happened?) and survival (we are outnumbered, outgunned, limited resources). You have to deal with survival while solving mystery.


Rules lawyer? Tell him what I tell my players.

"we are not playing pathfinder, we are playing a very close facsimile of pathfinder. I believe in the rules of cool and drama. Quote a rulebook at me and I will throw it at you. You will not win the argument. I am here to make a compelling dramatic story for you guys, not to be a rules lawyer and i dont want one at my table. So drop it. Now.

I will strive to explain houserules to you now, if you have questions ask them, when i am done explaining. However some things will come up in game that we disagree about or some people here just flat dont like. When that happens I will take a quick A/B vote and the vote stands as the rule of the campaign from here on out. Objections can be opened in the half hour before and after the game set aside for BS'ing. Not in the middle of a game."

Avoids a lot of drama later on. A few players kick, most give you a chance and if your really just trying to run a good game and empower stories and PC's I've found most will stick with you for years over numerous campaigns.

Because ultimately we all want cool over rules. Just as long as it halfway makes sense.

hifidelity2
2015-01-14, 08:02 AM
Rules lawyer? Tell him what I tell my players.

"we are not playing pathfinder, we are playing a very close facsimile of pathfinder. I believe in the rules of cool and drama. Quote a rulebook at me and I will throw it at you. You will not win the argument. I am here to make a compelling dramatic story for you guys, not to be a rules lawyer and i dont want one at my table. So drop it. Now.

I will strive to explain houserules to you now, if you have questions ask them, when i am done explaining. However some things will come up in game that we disagree about or some people here just flat dont like. When that happens I will take a quick A/B vote and the vote stands as the rule of the campaign from here on out. Objections can be opened in the half hour before and after the game set aside for BS'ing. Not in the middle of a game."

Avoids a lot of drama later on. A few players kick, most give you a chance and if your really just trying to run a good game and empower stories and PC's I've found most will stick with you for years over numerous campaigns.

Because ultimately we all want cool over rules. Just as long as it halfway makes sense.
Totally agree with you on this

However I have always said that top create an item need (in some cases) exotic components. So allow him to find the spell needed but - oh dear needs the tears from a virgin ancient dragon - and if the party want to go and find one of those - well thats a new plot for you

As for the uber NPC - he does not nee to kill them he can just beat them up a bit and let them live with the shame

draken50
2015-01-14, 10:37 AM
1) The player needs to trust the GM. It can help to explain in those turns. Using 3.5 as an example the rules allow you to take a level of wizard without any in-character effort whatsoever, just suddenly... boom... you're a wizard.

2)
A)Those aren't subversive shenanigans, those are in some cases class features. If you are using undead as your primary antagonists, and the players have tools to deal with them, there is no reason for them not to. As a GM trying to shut down their options strikes me as a poor idea. You have an entire metropolis of these minions to use. How many castings do they have? Are the undead drawn to light? do they need it to see? Find ways to make things more dramatic be creating choices and consequences rather than taking them away.

B)Are they able to blot out the sun? Why would you need to eliminate a viable option? That's a pretty clever plan that can ooze atmosphere and create for a decently tense session especially if only one party member has access to it. Beyond which, do these have to attack to damage? what if you walk through one... you know.. cause you can't see them without light. Are they not active or around at night?

Really, your'e trying to put all your eggs in this 1-hitpoint-undead basket and trying to make it work. Let the players do what they think may work and determine consequences. Frankly, your approach in these questions is to shut down your players rather than expand your own toolbox, and in my mind that's backwards.

3)Use rumor and NPCs to describe specific actions the character did that will make them tougher. For instance, "he fought off 8 blahblahs by himself without breaking a sweat." Then have a the PC's encounter blahblahs and have 2 or 3 be a stiff challenge for the party.

Be willing to mop the floor with said characters, but... have the motivations of the NPCS doing so in mind. Centaur-cyber-sheriff? Well, he's probably going to arrest them, and if he can "mop the floor" with the party, not killing may not be to difficult for him. Then the mayor or whatnot can be like "Hey send them after the blahblahs, if they succeed the town is better for it and if they fail... we saved some rope."

As a GM I consider that more than fair. You had warning the person you attacked was dangerous. You had first hand experience with an enemy he was said to have fought single-handedly. Also, he's the sheriff and you attacked him. You chose to act, and what that action was. Actions have consequences... cope. If the NPC in question is more likely to kill and devour them whole... well that's what they're going to do.

Silus
2015-01-14, 01:27 PM
1) The player needs to trust the GM. It can help to explain in those turns. Using 3.5 as an example the rules allow you to take a level of wizard without any in-character effort whatsoever, just suddenly... boom... you're a wizard.

2)
A)Those aren't subversive shenanigans, those are in some cases class features. If you are using undead as your primary antagonists, and the players have tools to deal with them, there is no reason for them not to. As a GM trying to shut down their options strikes me as a poor idea. You have an entire metropolis of these minions to use. How many castings do they have? Are the undead drawn to light? do they need it to see? Find ways to make things more dramatic be creating choices and consequences rather than taking them away.

B)Are they able to blot out the sun? Why would you need to eliminate a viable option? That's a pretty clever plan that can ooze atmosphere and create for a decently tense session especially if only one party member has access to it. Beyond which, do these have to attack to damage? what if you walk through one... you know.. cause you can't see them without light. Are they not active or around at night?

Really, your'e trying to put all your eggs in this 1-hitpoint-undead basket and trying to make it work. Let the players do what they think may work and determine consequences. Frankly, your approach in these questions is to shut down your players rather than expand your own toolbox, and in my mind that's backwards.

Well less "subversive shenanigans" and more along the lines of "Wow we just trivialized this whole series of encounters". If it were, say, a dungeon full of undead and the PCs broke out the Paladins and Clerics, then yeah, go to town. But with something like this, something that is supposed to be horror and keep the players on their toes, the last thing I need after ensuring the scene is set and the mood is right is some PC going "Oh hey I can channel like 50 times and kill/repel everything in a quarter mile". I don't really expect anything like that to happen, but I've not expected stuff like that in the past and it's bitten me in the backside.

You are correct though, at the present I only have an outline of what the creatures will do and I need to see about the options that I have as DM instead of trying to hamper those of the players. Though I've still a mind to temporarily hamper some PC powers like Channelling, like have some magical-whatsit in the area that dampens positive energy and if it's destroyed then it makes for easier going in that part of the area or something...

EDIT: 4TH QUESTION UP

aspekt
2015-01-14, 03:02 PM
And not expecting stuff the players will do is part of the game and can be entertaining for you as you see them overcome in an unexpected way and also because it keeps you on your toes causing you to improvise. Which for me at least is fun.

Beta Centauri
2015-01-14, 06:09 PM
Be more transparent. Trying to hide surprises from the players has a long sad history, because the downsides of surprises can be open-endedly bad for the players so they're not bought into the "coolness" of them. And, there are more player brains than GM brains looking to figure things out.

Tell them things. Player buy-in is the most powerful thing a game can have. If they like what you're planning, they won't just stop questioning rulings or beating up the wrong NPCs, but they'll actively be trying to help you make the game MORE fun.

Complete transparency isn't necessary, if you can assure the players that you're not going to shank them with the stuff you're keeping secret. But then you have to actually not shank them.

In short, build trust. That gives a GM lots of freedom and lots of cooperation.