How important are Reflex saves?

[Tiri]

Are they more or less important than Fortitude and Will saves? I'm asking because with the build I'm planning to use for the character I'm currently playing, my Reflex saves will be abysmal at all levels, so I wanted to know if it would be a problem.

[Eldan]

I'd say a lot less, especially after the first few levels. Most reflex saves are connected to HP damage, which isn't all that relevant later. What you want to do is avoid mind control, death effects and similar instant losses.

[defiantdan]

it all depends on what your dm throws at you. As far as mitigation goes it usually good to get a good reflex save and a ring of evasion. It can help negate a good deal of damage since many evocation effects come with a reflex save half. However at higher levels and smart dm's. many save or lose or die effects won't even offer a save.

[Firest Kathon]

The things that target the Reflex save are, in many cases, aimed at your hitpoints (area spells, traps, ...), though some give negative status effects (e.g. Web spell). How important the Reflex save is for your character depends how well you can otherwise mitigate these effects.

Examples: If you have a lot of hit points or a good healer, it is not (very) important if the fireball does 30 or 15 damage. If you have a lot of Strength or some kind of fire aura, you don't care about being Webbed.

Edited to add: I am not aware of a common spell or effect that targets the Reflex save which would take you out of the combat immediately, while there are many which target Fortitude and especially Will saves. So looking from that angle, Reflex save may be the least important.

[Tiri]

Is it important enough that I should do something about it? So far all of the saving throws my DM has thrown at us are Reflex.

[Chronos]

There are a handful of save-or-lose effects which target Reflex, such as Bands of Steel, and a few more save-or-suck, such as Resilient Sphere. But yeah, it's mostly HP.


Is it important enough that I should do something about it? So far all of the saving throws my DM has thrown at us are Reflex.
Have the effects he's been throwing at you been doing enough damage to be seriously inconvenient for you? If it's just "Dang, now I need to use another charge from the healing wand after battle", then don't worry about it. If it's "Wow, I'm glad he rolled low, or that Fireball would have killed me", then you need to do something (though that something might not necessarily be improving your Ref).

[Tiri]

Well, half the party did get knocked down into negatives by a failed save against Burning Hands from an enemy sorcerer last session. But that might just be because we're only level 2 and were already wounded.

[Rebel7284]

Post your build so that we can give relevant suggestions. On average, reflex is the least important, but that may not be true for YOUR game.

[Tiri]

Well, I'm planning on making a gish, but started with sorcerer because the idea to make a gish came after we started the game. Right now I'm Sorcerer 2, but my overall plan for levels 1-20 is Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/AbjChamp 5/EK 7.

[Deophaun]

At low levels it's probably the most important save, simply because it comes up frequently, you don't have the HP to survive failure a lot of the time, and resurrection is prohibitively expensive. This goes away at mid levels, especially when you get access to freedom of movement and become immune to pretty much every status element tied to Reflex saves.

[Tiri]

I suppose I won't worry too much about it, then. Thanks for the help, everyone!

[Fouredged Sword]

To say it's the least important save is not to underplay it though. All your saves are worth boosting. It is still worth it to boost your reflex save at least somewhat. That said, a pair of +4 dex gloves and a cloak of +5 resistance is normally all you need. While all that gear does boost your reflex save, is also grants +2 initiative, +2 to your touch AC, and +5 to your other two saves. Even at low levels, a cloak of resistance +1 and gloves of dex+2 are really good ideas for a gish once you boost your core stat and con.

It just that the initiative and fort/will save boosts are the more important part of that set.

[heavyfuel]

It is true that they are the least important save in the sense that failing a Reflex save probably won't do you much harm.

However, I found that in all the tables I've played in over my many year of 3.x, Reflex saves are, by far, the most common. If I had to ballpark it, I'd say that it's roughly 60% Reflexes saves, 25% Fortitude, 15% Will. YMMV, especially on higher OP tables, though I consider most of my tables to be above average OP. So yeah, when it comes the time to roll a Will save you DO NOT want tha to fail, but since Reflex saves are far more prevalent (4 times more so by my estimate) having poor Reflexes mean you don't get screwed hard, but do often.

[Feint's End]

I suggest you look into a Sorcadin instead (as long as you don't mind being lawful good of course). In essence you change one level of fighter (which doesn't do all that much for you anyways) for two levels of paladin. Then you'll get that delicious charisma to saves and you won't have to worry about saves anymore.
There are several PRCS which advance full casting and have a good bab which are better than eldritch knight. I suggest you take a look at those.

[Rebel7284]

While charisma to saves is pretty nice, it's not necessarily worth the extra lost caster level. Many people chose Sacred Exorcist instead of Eldrich Knight in such builds. Turn undead opens several nice feats and 3/4ths BAB tends to be sufficient.

edit:
I would go Sorcerer 6/Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 7

but the aforementioned Paladin 2, Sacred Exorcist 6 build works too.

[Fouredged Sword]

I really must suggest abjurant champion if at all possible. Also, Ruthar is a good way to add an extra point of bab early without losing caster level. It even grants proficiency in a martial weapon!

Sorcerer 6 / Ruthar 3 / Abjurant champion 5 is my favored build for a sorcerer gish. More castery than most sorcerer gishes, and a little less powerful in melee, but still good.

If you want higher save and less casting, the sorcerer 6 / paladin 2 / abjurant champion 5 / IoSV builds also work just fine. You can still hit 9th level spells without losing too much and you are HARD to get any effect to stick to. Charisma to saves, AC in the lower forties... Those Veils!

[Odin's Eyepatch]

I'm currently playing a Ranger who has, 3 times out of 4, died through failed reflex saves (AND I had evasion at all of those failed saves). I have consistently rolled badly every time I really needed to roll well on those reflex saves.

It has actually become a bit of a joke in our group that the character with the highest save and evasion is also the one who has died the most because of reflex saves.

The best thing is, our DM doesn't tend to favour reflex-saving spells any more than the other saves.

I also have the feeling that in higher level games, reflex-inducing effects tend to do a lot more damage, easily bringing low any characters with lower hp.

[Troacctid]

The more HP you have, the less important Reflex is. With low HP, failing a save can often mean you just die. With high HP, it's more likely that you can afford to soak the full damage.

[Chronos]

Another point is that there aren't all that many things that boost just your Reflex save. Some things boost all of your saves, and those would be useful even if Ref were worthless, because they'd still hit the important Fort and Will. Boosting Dex will increase Ref without the other two, but it'll also improve your AC, initiative, and ranged attack rolls. So when deciding whether something is worth it, you have to look at the whole package.

[Rebel7284]

Once you get second level spells, you can pick up Wings of Cover. It lets you dodge attacks and gives you a bonus +4 to reflex saves.
Once you get 4th level spells, you can pick up Ruin Delver's Fortune for Charisma Mod to Reflex Saves.

[Deophaun]

One more factor at lower levels: Damage is much more swingy. It's a lot easier to roll max damage on a 2d6 than it is on a 10d6 (1:36 versus 1:60,466,176), yet both are balanced around their average output. So as you gain levels, probability becomes your friend.

[Tiri]

I suggest you look into a Sorcadin instead (as long as you don't mind being lawful good of course). In essence you change one level of fighter (which doesn't do all that much for you anyways) for two levels of paladin. Then you'll get that delicious charisma to saves and you won't have to worry about saves anymore.
There are several PRCS which advance full casting and have a good bab which are better than eldritch knight. I suggest you take a look at those.

I do know what a Sorcadin is, but unfortunately I'm Neutral.


I really must suggest abjurant champion if at all possible. Also, Ruthar is a good way to add an extra point of bab early without losing caster level. It even grants proficiency in a martial weapon=!

Well, I was going to take Abjurant Champion anyway. I might take Ruathar if I end up performing a service to any elves before level 6.

[mvpmack]

Of particular note is the level 2 spell Local Tremor, which knocks down on a failed Reflex save, hits a line, and can be used once per round as a standard action for 1rd/CL. It's not extremely likely that it will get used against you (most DMs don't know it exists), but at low levels it's fairly strong, especially since it's on the cleric list, who don't normally have access to good Reflex save options.

Honestly, I'd boost dex first for reflex saves (or +all saves like resistance bonuses), since touch attacks are probably more common than reflex saves.

The majority of saves, in my experience, are Will. Our DM usually uses them to cause shaken, dazzle or daze rather than "out of the battle" type effects, though. I definitely think it's a YMMV type of thing, with everyone having their own styles.

[NNescio]

Of particular note is the level 2 spell Local Tremor, which knocks down on a failed Reflex save, hits a line, and can be used once per round as a standard action for 1rd/CL. It's not extremely likely that it will get used against you (most DMs don't know it exists), but at low levels it's fairly strong, especially since it's on the cleric list, who don't normally have access to good Reflex save options.

Honestly, I'd boost dex first for reflex saves (or +all saves like resistance bonuses), since touch attacks are probably more common than reflex saves.

The majority of saves, in my experience, are Will. Our DM usually uses them to cause shaken, dazzle or daze rather than "out of the battle" type effects, though. I definitely think it's a YMMV type of thing, with everyone having their own styles.

Speaking about Local Tremor, there's Grease, which also knocks down opponents on a failed Ref save when it's initially cast. It's a common staple, especially among GOD wizards.

But yeah, generally, Ref saves generally only help avoid damage, and in rare cases a brief disable (Bands of Steel is still extremely powerful though, as it renders targets helpless). Fort save helps save against a wide range of deliberating effects, including SoDs/SoLs, and long-lasting damage to characters like poisons/diseases/negative levels.

Will saves help you avoid killing your own team.