Reflex save while grappled.

[Melcar]

Yeah so... I was looking into the whole "grappled in the mouth of the dragon and it breathed" thing. As far as I can see one would get a saving throw at -5 for the effective 0 dex. The I found this:
Daltim’s Fiery Tentacles
Conjuration (creation) [Fire]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 5
Saving Throw: None and Reflex half; see text
This spell functions similarly to Evard’s black tentacles, except
that the tentacles are limned in blue-white fire. Every creature
within the area of the spell takes 1 point of firedamagepercaster
level (maximum 15 points) each round. A successful Reflexsave
halves this damage, but a character grappled by the tentacles
cannot make the save.

I found this very interesting, and actually might think that this might not only be a specific situation of this spell. I kind of see it as the thing about components for (Su) abilities. It does not specifically say that (Su) are componentless but it does say so under the Dweomerkeepers Supernatural spell.

What are your thought and ideas about the whole reflex when grappled/helpless/pinned?

[Necroticplague]

No, that's a specific spell. It doesn't apply to any other scenario. That spell only means you can't dodge the fire that's holding onto you. The spell still allow you to make reflex save against other things while the fire tentacles grapple you. By default, you can make reflex saves perfectly fine while grappled. You don't even take the -5 you talk about, because you aren't helpless while grappling, just flat-footed. Even when you're pinned, you're aren't helpless, and can make reflex saves as normal.

While helpless, you do, however, treat you're dex as 0, and thus save at -5.

[Melcar]

No, that's a specific spell. It doesn't apply to any other scenario. That spell only means you can't dodge the fire that's holding onto you. The spell still allow you to make reflex save against other things while the fire tentacles grapple you. By default, you can make reflex saves perfectly fine while grappled. You don't even take the -5 you talk about, because you aren't helpless while grappling, just flat-footed. Even when you're pinned, you're aren't helpless, and can make reflex saves as normal.

While helpless, you do, however, treat you're dex as 0, and thus save at -5.

Ok... I see. I might not think that makes a whole lot of sense, but I see I had gotten the rules wrong. Thanks.

[Allianis]

I agree with Necroticplague. Grappling only drops your Dexterity to AC (See Below). However, as a DM I would agree with you in that it doesn't make sense to give them no penalty. It may just be easier to impose a -4 circumstance penalty and be done with it. Never forget that DM discretion is the cornerstone of DnD physics.

...

Grappling Consequences
While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited.

No Threatened Squares
You don’t threaten any squares while grappling.

No Dexterity Bonus
You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)

No Movement
You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check to move while grappling.

[Melcar]

I agree with Necroticplague. Grappling only drops your Dexterity to AC (See Below). However, as a DM I would agree with you in that it doesn't make sense to give them no penalty. It may just be easier to impose a -4 circumstance penalty and be done with it. Never forget that DM discretion is the cornerstone of DnD physics.

...

Grappling Consequences
While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited.

No Threatened Squares
You don’t threaten any squares while grappling.

No Dexterity Bonus
You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)

No Movement
You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check to move while grappling.


Im glad to see I'm not alone with this... I see how a reflex save might represent some form of luck aswell, but I think that were someone heloless, that his luck would be next to zero, and therefor not able to make the save... It might just be me.

[Necroticplague]

Im glad to see I'm not alone with this... I see how a reflex save might represent some form of luck aswell, but I think that were someone heloless, that his luck would be next to zero, and therefor not able to make the save... It might just be me.

Meh. The DnDverse runs on different rules than the real one. You don't need to be aware of poison to FORT against it, no reason you need to know about the breath to REF against it. It kinda like drown-healing, in that it only is weird if you assume the dnd universe and real life follow the same rules, when they clearly don't.

[ace rooster]

Yeah so... I was looking into the whole "grappled in the mouth of the dragon and it breathed" thing. As far as I can see one would get a saving throw at -5 for the effective 0 dex. The I found this:
Daltim’s Fiery Tentacles
Conjuration (creation) [Fire]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 5
Saving Throw: None and Reflex half; see text
This spell functions similarly to Evard’s black tentacles, except
that the tentacles are limned in blue-white fire. Every creature
within the area of the spell takes 1 point of firedamagepercaster
level (maximum 15 points) each round. A successful Reflexsave
halves this damage, but a character grappled by the tentacles
cannot make the save.

I found this very interesting, and actually might think that this might not only be a specific situation of this spell. I kind of see it as the thing about components for (Su) abilities. It does not specifically say that (Su) are componentless but it does say so under the Dweomerkeepers Supernatural spell.

What are your thought and ideas about the whole reflex when grappled/helpless/pinned?

The simple way to be grappled in the mouth of a dragon is because it has the snatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#snatch) feat. Breath weapons are explicitly mentioned as getting no save in this case.

I would not take any of the tentacles spells as being representative of anything regarding grapples, as they are written by somebody who clearly had never even read the grapple rules (pet peeve) :smallredface:. The spell mentioned is similar to meteor swarm, which denys reflex saves on a successful touch attack.

It is not mentioned anywhere as far as I am aware, but grapples denying dex bonuses to reflex saves seems like an ok houserule. I certainly wouldn't impose treating dex as 0, as grappling does not impose this on AC.

[Melcar]

Meh. The DnDverse runs on different rules than the real one. You don't need to be aware of poison to FORT against it, no reason you need to know about the breath to REF against it. It kinda like drown-healing, in that it only is weird if you assume the dnd universe and real life follow the same rules, when they clearly don't.

Personally I see it differently. Fortitude save is your body's immune system and ability of shrug of damage and pain, thus more of an automatic inherent thing of being a living creature. Reflex is an active dodge physical avoidance like diving for cover or covering up your face, or sidestepping when a trap door opens. These I see as something where movement on your part is a must. Poison is not something you actively tells your body to resist. That just happenst.

Now I know that purely game mechanical wise one actively take a save, but if your paralysed none of your reflexes funcktion, thun I would feel that a reflex save could not actively be taken.