[PF] New Ways to get pounce

[Yanisa]

Heya,

Have been out of touch for a while and recently I was pondering ways to gain pounce for my melee character. I found a old thread from late 2013 (link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?274727-PF-Best-ways-to-get-pounce-%28across-classes%29)), but most of these options are a bit out of my reach... Then I realized we are more than a year further and lots of new stuff came out. So do any of you guys know a new way of gaining pounce, or perhaps a way to gain rage powers without being a raging class?

[Ssalarn]

The Pummeling Style feat chain lets you get a kind of pseudo-Pounce for unarmed (or close weapon with the Martial Versatility feat) combatants.

I don't believe there's any way to get rage powers without being a raging class (other than having a Skald share them with Raging Song), but there's options like the Viking archetype for the Fighter that gets Rage and access to rage powers but doesn't have any alignment restrictions (if that was part of why you didn't want a raging class).

For mounted combatants the Mounted Skirmisher feat is their version of Pounce.

Obviously there's a few archetypes that give you Pounce or something similar (like the Mobile Fighter archetype).

[Feint's End]

It would help us to know what kind of class / build you are following. This would make it easier for us to actually suggest solutions within your reach.

That said you can get easy access to pounce by going 3 levels Warmind (psionic lions charge), which is an excellent prestige class anyways with boosts to str, con, dr and the the ability to attack two enemies at once with every strike.

The only question is if you are averse to multitclassing and if psionics are allowed at your table.

[Yanisa]

It would help us to know what kind of class / build you are following. This would make it easier for us to actually suggest solutions within your reach.

That said you can get easy access to pounce by going 3 levels Warmind (psionic lions charge), which is an excellent prestige class anyways with boosts to str, con, dr and the the ability to attack two enemies at once with every strike.

The only question is if you are averse to multitclassing and if psionics are allowed at your table.

A syntheist, stuck with biped due lore reasons. I don't really mind multiclassing, but syntheist eh. Psionics is probably a hard sell to the group, no one seems really keen on it.



The Pummeling Style feat chain lets you get a kind of pseudo-Pounce for unarmed (or close weapon with the Martial Versatility feat) combatants.
Pummeling style might even work with Feral Combat Training.... Hmmm....

[Elricaltovilla]

Hey, its my old thread!

There hasn't been much expansion on the pounce frontier from Paizo. Most of the new material comes from 3rd party stuff like Dreamscarred Press's Psionics and Path of War (Tome of Battle conversion for Pathfinder). There's plenty of options outside of Paizo, but if its 1st party you need, then Ssalarn pretty much covered everything.

[Feint's End]

Feral Combat Training works with Pummelling Strike but you need a lot of feats to make it work. Basically 3 to just qualify for Pummelling Strike and then 2 more to get the charge feat (and you need a sufficiently high level too).

[Ssalarn]

Feral Combat Training works with Pummelling Strike but you need a lot of feats to make it work. Basically 3 to just qualify for Pummelling Strike and then 2 more to get the charge feat (and you need a sufficiently high level too).

You could always dip MoMS for easy access; the issue there of course being that MoMS loses Flurry, and the only way I'm aware of to get it back is Brawler levels.

[Psyren]

The Pummeling Style feat chain lets you get a kind of pseudo-Pounce for unarmed (or close weapon with the Martial Versatility feat) combatants.

FYI, this opens up the monk group too - which opens up monk weapons that aren't "close" like the quarterstaff.

[Yanisa]

Hey, its my old thread!

There hasn't been much expansion on the pounce frontier from Paizo. Most of the new material comes from 3rd party stuff like Dreamscarred Press's Psionics and Path of War (Tome of Battle conversion for Pathfinder). There's plenty of options outside of Paizo, but if its 1st party you need, then Ssalarn pretty much covered everything.

You make it sound Path of War has some of way of pouncing, but I didn't see it. So.. is there? Because I think I can sell Path of War to the group. (Easier then Psionics anyways)

Other third party might take some more convincing, but if you know some just name them. So far the only third party the group has run with is BoEF... and I feel it is time to challenge that.


Feral Combat Training works with Pummelling Strike but you need a lot of feats to make it work. Basically 3 to just qualify for Pummelling Strike and then 2 more to get the charge feat (and you need a sufficiently high level too).

I count: Weapon Focus, Improved Unarmed Strike (a waste), Feral Combat Training (a tax), Pummeling Style (might be useful even?) and lastly Pummeling Charge. 5 feats total. Decent but I do agree it is expensive, but eh, what else am I going to do with my feats? :smalltongue:

Seriously though, the high level is the real bummer, level 16, that seems like an impossible goal at the moment. We are still at level 2 after months of playing.

[IZ42]

One way to get is to use THIS (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/celestial-blessed-creature-template-cr-1) template (3rd party however, so might be a no-go) and taking Leonal. This lets you pounce with unarmed or natural attacks only.

[Ssalarn]

FYI, this opens up the monk group too - which opens up monk weapons that aren't "close" like the quarterstaff.

Completely forgot that unarmed strikes were part of the monk, close, and natural attack weapon groups; that actually makes Martial Versatility pretty amazing for Pummeling characters, especially with weapons like the sansetsukon and nine-ring broadsword on the list; the NRB's x3 crit would be pretty nasty on a pummeling charge.

[Elricaltovilla]

You make it sound Path of War has some of way of pouncing, but I didn't see it. So.. is there? Because I think I can sell Path of War to the group. (Easier then Psionics anyways)

Other third party might take some more convincing, but if you know some just name them. So far the only third party the group has run with is BoEF... and I feel it is time to challenge that.



Its not true pounce, usually its a maneuver with movement and multiple hits built in, a standard action strike that you can use after moving, or a standard action strike combined with the feat Martial Charge.

The Broken Blade, Primal Fury and Thrashing Dragon disciplines all contain maneuvers that incorporate movement plus multiple attacks. With the Martial Charge feat you can use a strike at the end of a charge, and most disciplines have multi-hit strikes which can be combined with a charge thanks to that feat.

If you're looking for more material, the playtest documents include another discipline, Mithral Current, which has a lot of movement and multiple attack strikes. That I wrote.

[Ssalarn]

I count: Weapon Focus, Improved Unarmed Strike (a waste), Feral Combat Training (a tax), Pummeling Style (might be useful even?) and lastly Pummeling Charge. 5 feats total. Decent but I do agree it is expensive, but eh, what else am I going to do with my feats? :smalltongue:

Seriously though, the high level is the real bummer, level 16, that seems like an impossible goal at the moment. We are still at level 2 after months of playing.


2 levels of MoMS nets you some of those feats for free, and they can skip prereqs on Style feats and feats in style chains, letting you get access much more quickly. What class are you currently?

[Yanisa]

Its not true pounce, usually its a maneuver with movement and multiple hits built in, a standard action strike that you can use after moving, or a standard action strike combined with the feat Martial Charge.

The Broken Blade, Primal Fury and Thrashing Dragon disciplines all contain maneuvers that incorporate movement plus multiple attacks. With the Martial Charge feat you can use a strike at the end of a charge, and most disciplines have multi-hit strikes which can be combined with a charge thanks to that feat.

If you're looking for more material, the playtest documents include another discipline, Mithral Current, which has a lot of movement and multiple attack strikes. That I wrote.
Yeah, I only looked for straight pounce.

What you forgot the mention is that with Martial Training I can pick up a couple of these abilities (I spy Broken Blade) without having any PoW classes. Even if it ain't going to be real full attacks I do like the idea more and it might even be a bit more versatile. The DM might also be more open when I do 2 attacks (Flurry Strike) rather than ALL attacks on a charge. He didn't seem to happy with the idea of pounce. :smalltongue:

It still is a large feat investment to get more attacks out of it. (2 feats for 2 attacks on a charge, 4 feats for 3 attacks...)

It also allows me to slowly show the book to the players without "weird new classes" or "breaking the game balance". Yeah convincing the group is the hard part.


2 levels of MoMS nets you some of those feats for free, and they can skip prereqs on Style feats and feats in style chains, letting you get access much more quickly. What class are you currently?

Summoner, Syntheist, Biped... I think I rather lose a feat then a class level, partly because I had no plans with feats other then more evolution points. Besides that a monk isn't really a class for my character too, she is way too chaotic.

[Psyren]

I count: Weapon Focus, Improved Unarmed Strike (a waste), Feral Combat Training (a tax), Pummeling Style (might be useful even?) and lastly Pummeling Charge. 5 feats total. Decent but I do agree it is expensive, but eh, what else am I going to do with my feats? :smalltongue:


FYI - unarmed strike is also part of the "unarmed" weapon group, as are natural weapons. If you're just full-attacking rather than flurrying with your Pummeling Charge, you shouldn't need FCT at all and that will save you a feat. (However, if you mix any punches in with your natural attacks the latter will become secondary.)

[Elricaltovilla]

Yeah, I only looked for straight pounce.

What you forgot the mention is that with Martial Training I can pick up a couple of these abilities (I spy Broken Blade) without having any PoW classes. Even if it ain't going to be real full attacks I do like the idea more and it might even be a bit more versatile. The DM might also be more open when I do 2 attacks (Flurry Strike) rather than ALL attacks on a charge. He didn't seem to happy with the idea of pounce. :smalltongue:

It still is a large feat investment to get more attacks out of it. (2 feats for 2 attacks on a charge, 4 feats for 3 attacks...)

It also allows me to slowly show the book to the players without "weird new classes" or "breaking the game balance". Yeah convincing the group is the hard part.


I probably should have mentioned Martial Training, you're right, but I prefer to dive head first into new material instead of dipping my toe in the proverbial water.:smalltongue:

Primal Fury is THE charge discipline, that's what it does best. Broken Blade is more for imitating/showing up the party monk. But you can easily build a pseudo-pouncer for each of them.

[Yanisa]

FYI - unarmed strike is also part of the "unarmed" weapon group, as are natural weapons. If you're just full-attacking rather than flurrying with your Pummeling Charge, you shouldn't need FCT at all and that will save you a feat. (However, if you mix any punches in with your natural attacks the latter will become secondary.)

I am profoundly confused by this statement... All the pummeling style feats talk about "unarmed strike" rather then an generic unarmed weapon group? FCT would be a useless feat if you could always swap out unarmed strike for any unarmed weapon group weapon.


I probably should have mentioned Martial Training, you're right, but I prefer to dive head first into new material instead of dipping my toe in the proverbial water.:smalltongue:
True, but dipping toes works better for the group , they are kinda unwilling against third party. Some of that is my fault (Hivemaster, cough) some of that is the damned BoEF fault. :smalltongue:
I do think they will like Path of War, they just need to be open for it.


Primal Fury is THE charge discipline, that's what it does best. Broken Blade is more for imitating/showing up the party monk. But you can easily build a pseudo-pouncer for each of them.

I was drawn to Broke Blade because it has my weapon group, natural weapons. But Primal Fury (which fits my character lorewise far better) has Raging Hunter Pounce... which is a real pounce. Charge, full attack, win. Second level so it would only require two feats and I can have it by level 5, if I can pour some points in Knowledge (Martial Skill Tax). Unless it only works with discipline weapons, than it's three feats for Weapon Group Adaptation, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Ssalarn]

I am profoundly confused by this statement... All the pummeling style feats talk about "unarmed strike" rather then an generic unarmed weapon group? FCT would be a useless feat if you could always swap out unarmed strike for any unarmed weapon group weapon.


He means if you have Martial Versatility, you don't also need Feral Combat Training since you don't have monk abilities like Flurry to worry about.

[Yanisa]

He means if you have Martial Versatility, you don't also need Feral Combat Training since you don't have monk abilities like Flurry to worry about.

Ah, but then are you just switching one feat for another. At least for my current build. Also Martial Versatility requires four(!) levels of fighter. That is pretty deep into fighter for a dip.

[Psyren]

I am profoundly confused by this statement... All the pummeling style feats talk about "unarmed strike" rather then an generic unarmed weapon group? FCT would be a useless feat if you could always swap out unarmed strike for any unarmed weapon group weapon.

It's not totally useless, because you need it to flurry even if you have Martial Versatility. But since you are not going monk, you aren't going to be flurrying, right?


Ah, but then are you just switching one feat for another.

Not at all, you need MV and PC regardless of whether you get FCT or not, unless you are sticking with unarmed strikes. Make sense?

You're right about the 4 levels of Fighter though.

[Yanisa]

It's not totally useless, because you need it to flurry even if you have Martial Versatility. But since you are not going monk, you aren't going to be flurrying, right?

Not at all, you need MV and PC regardless of whether you get FCT or not, unless you are sticking with unarmed strikes. Make sense?

You're right about the 4 levels of Fighter though.

There is some merit for MV, but it seems rather bad for my plans and I certainly don't need to have it at all. The only advantage it has over FCT is that allows all natural attacks, which I did not realize before. Then again I am mostly sticking with claws so that difference is minor at best, I do loose a natural attack on the uneven max attacks. Also MV forces you to pick one feat, in this case either style or charge, whereas FCT works for both feats (and more). Both options ain't perfect, but FCT fits my plans better. Although pummeling charge still comes on damn late. It's a last resort no third party option, and only marginally better than level dipping (And If I had to dip I rather still go FCT with 2 levels monk, then MV with 4 levels fighter).

[Elricaltovilla]

Primal Fury doesn't care what weapon you use, so you can primal fury pounce with your fists or claws or what have you. The only thing you're missing is the +2 DC for using a discipline weapon.

[Psyren]

Also MV forces you to pick one feat, in this case either style or charge, whereas FCT works for both feats (and more).

The idea is that you would pick it for Style - due to the way Pummeling Charge is worded, it will work with that too as a result.

But yeah, if you only have a single natural attack you may as well go with FCT.

[Feint's End]

To be honest I'd just stay single classed Summoner since the most important rule is never multiclass if you are playing one.

That said I suggest looking at the PoW feats and just picking up those. You'll eventually get a few pouncy maneuvers on top of some general charging goodness and fun tricks. Sounds perfect to me. (also you won't be pouncing from very early levels which the DM could have issues with).

[Ssalarn]

Too late in the game for this character now (barring some polymorph shenanigans), but could a kitsune Summoner with access to fox form or a multiclass Summoner/Druid with Wildshape just pick up the Pounce evolution?

...

I suppose the kitsune thing is a moot point since they could also just grab Vulpine Pounce... And so is the druid thing since they could just select a form with access to pounce....

Never mind.

[Kaidinah]

Path of War
Primal Fury Discipline
2nd level maneuver: Raging Hunter Pounce

Though why does it specifically have to be pounce? There are many standard action maneuvers that grant multiple attacks as well.

[grarrrg]

I think most people are overlooking the fact that Pummeling Charge requires Pummeling Style, and Pummeling Style requires Flurry (Monk or Brawler).
So in order to get Pummeling Charge on a Synthesist you MUST dip a level of Monk/Brawler first.

Edit: Curse you Punctuation!

Master of Many Styles is quite useful here, as you can spend the bonus feat on Pummeling Style, and since it lets you bypass all Req's, you can take a 2nd level to grab Pummeling Charge whenever you want.

As a side bonus, you now get to add your WIS to your AC (because as a Synthesist you aren't wearing armor anyway).


You could always dip MoMS for easy access; the issue there of course being that MoMS loses Flurry, and the only way I'm aware of to get it back is Brawler levels.

Pummeling Style works on a Flurry OR a Full Attack, so Flurry is actually not needed.

[Vhaidara]

I think most people are overlooking the fact that Pummeling Charge requires Pummeling Style, and Pummeling Style requires Flurry (Monk or Brawler).
So in order to get Pummeling Charge on a Synthesist you MUST dip a level of Monk/Brawler first.

False.


base attack bonus +6, brawler's flurry class feature, or flurry of blows class feature

Bolding mine, notice that they are separated by commas, not semicolons. You only need 1 of the three.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think that slash meant or, not that you needed to dip both. Either way, for this particular character going MoMS monk is better than brawler since it saves quite a lot of feats.

[Vhaidara]

I think that slash meant or, not that you needed to dip both. Either way, for this particular character going MoMS monk is better than brawler since it saves quite a lot of feats.

You don't need to dip either. The requirement is BAB +6 OR Brawler's Flurry OR Flurry of Blows.

They are separated by commas. Different requirements are separated by semicolons.

[grarrrg]

Bah, punctuation.
MoMS Monk will still get you Pummeling Charge by level 7 at the latest (as opposed to level 16-ish for straight Summoner)

[Drelua]

It doesn't really help with this exact problem, but I'm wondering if this works how I think it works. If I play a Catfolk Fighter and get a bunch of extra natural attacks - say, Viking archetype with the Animal Fury and Lesser Fiend Totem rage powers - then I take Claw Pounce and Martial Versatility, does this mean I could pounce with all of my natural attacks?

This might make that Catfolk character idea I've had bouncing around in my head for a while a bit more viable. Maybe Fighter 4/Slayer 6+ (not in that order) or something.

[Madwand99]

As a synthesist, by far the best way to get pseudo-pounce is to get the Dimensional Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish) feat. It's expensive, but very worthwhile.

[Psyren]

It doesn't really help with this exact problem, but I'm wondering if this works how I think it works. If I play a Catfolk Fighter and get a bunch of extra natural attacks - say, Viking archetype with the Animal Fury and Lesser Fiend Totem rage powers - then I take Claw Pounce and Martial Versatility, does this mean I could pounce with all of my natural attacks?

This might make that Catfolk character idea I've had bouncing around in my head for a while a bit more viable. Maybe Fighter 4/Slayer 6+ (not in that order) or something.

Claw Pounce only lets you full-attack with your claws. However, if you use Claw Blades + the TWF line, you can get far more than two attacks as well as enhancing them normally instead of via AoMF.

[Yanisa]

As a synthesist, by far the best way to get pseudo-pounce is to get the Dimensional Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish) feat. It's expensive, but very worthwhile.

Hmmm... Unlike Pummeling charge I can get it earlier (lvl 11 vs lvl 16) and it costs less feats (3 vs 5), but the pounce it self is way more limited, I can only get 1 to 3 per day instead of unlimited. But I am not sure how times I need pounce per day, kinda depends on the amount of combats and judging so far 1 per day seems to be the norm. I guess I can manage with 2 pounces.

What do other people think, Pummeling Charge or Dimensional Dervish?

(On a side note, it might help if I figured out what other feats I want, except more evolution points, to figure out how much the cost of 5 vs 3 feats matter, but that is an entire different topic.)

[Madwand99]

You should be able to get dimensional dervish by level 11, or even earlier if you use retraining (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining). You need BAB 12, and thus 15th level, to qualify for Pummellling Charge. The free dimensional door's you get from Synthesist, plus taking the spell, provide enough uses/day in my experience. Your GM may also greatly limit the weapons you can use with Pummeling Style (only unarmed strikes), which means (perhaps) no natural weapons, and definitely no manufactured weapons. Using a polearm is one of the best things about being a biped synthesist, and you can use ALL your natural attacks and weapon attacks with Dimensional Dervish.

[Drelua]

Claw Pounce only lets you full-attack with your claws. However, if you use Claw Blades + the TWF line, you can get far more than two attacks as well as enhancing them normally instead of via AoMF.

See, I was thinking that Martial Versatility would let Claw Pounce work with all natural weapons, but I forgot that both require different races. Woops. :smallredface: I guess that's what I get for posting my ideas late at night. Unless I manage to pull off some crazy Reincarnation shenanigans, that's not gonna happen.

Unless maybe you play a human and take Racial Heritage Catfolk, but then you'd have to get the sprinter racial trait somehow, so at that point it might be easier to get pounce some other way.

[Starbin]

I know it's a bit of a delay on this question, but when I read Raging Hunter Pounce, it says "The initiator makes a charge attack and makes a full attack at the end of the charge against the target creature." (emphasis mine).

Does that mean you make a charge attack AND a full attack? Or does it state somewhere you're just making a full attack simply after the movement of a charge?

[deuxhero]

Aside from Pummeling Style, the only addition in the last yearish to pounce is Evolve Companion in the ACG, which lets you spend a feat to add it to any quadreped animal companion. You can also make it have an even better pounce by sticking a few more natural attacks on it (which you can then combine with an Aasimar Oracle to have an AC with an effective druid level of 1.5 your Oracle level and Celestial Companion to have it get DR and energy resistance way above what's "good" DR/ER for your level and spirit's gift to give it a 20% miss chance or a number of other abilities chosen by the day)