A paladin and 80 orc prisoners

[Dr TPK]

I'm the DM. Our previous session ended with a large-scale battle (part of a war campaign which is being waged against the orcs). The general of the army is an Aasimar cleric/paladin of Pelor. The commander-in-chief is a noble (Lawful Neutral), who is not interested in making decisions, since she's not into wars. The position is merely ceremonial.

The battle ended with 120 dead orcs, and 80 prisoners of war, most of whom are wounded. It's extremely impractical, but possible, to transport the prisoners off the battlefield (which is just a featureless plain), but the campaign would be delayed and they might run out of money (for the mercenaries) before finishing the campaign successfully.

What to do? All the prisoners are battlefit orcs, despite being wounded and disheartened after their major defeat.

[danzibr]

I'm the DM. Our previous session ended with a large-scale battle (part of a war campaign which is being waged against the orcs). The general of the army is an Aasimar cleric/paladin of Pelor. The commander-in-chief is a noble (Lawful Neutral), who is not interested in making decisions, since she's not into wars. The position is merely ceremonial.

The battle ended with 120 dead orcs, and 80 prisoners of war, most of whom are wounded. It's extremely impractical, but possible, to transport the prisoners off the battlefield (which is just a featureless plain), but the campaign would be delayed and they might run out of money (for the mercenaries) before finishing the campaign successfully.

What to do? All the prisoners are battlefit orcs, despite being wounded and disheartened after their major defeat.
Who are the players?

I'd say let them decide. Give them the knowledge. Takes the load off you.

[Dr TPK]

Who are the players?

I'd say let them decide. Give them the knowledge. Takes the load off you.

The PCs are captains and lieutenants of the army.

[Darrin]

PCs and prisoners do not mix well, and the D&D rules system isn't really equipped to cover those sorts of stories.

The Spoony One explains:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc8Ubesn9GA

I would suggest bringing in a group of "reserve units" that can take over taking care of the prisoners and move them "offscreen" quickly. That way the PCs can get back to adventuring.

[Xelbiuj]

Reverse triage.
Only aid the ones that are still fairly healthy. Leave those that are too wounded to die, or euthanize them. Allow some to defect into your merc army. Set up a prison camp, use the still health ones to aid in management of the camp.

Or, if you don't go by modern standards for POWs (why would* you?) give them a trial and execute them. Even if you do, their crimes may still include human rights violations and warrant hanging.

[dascarletm]

Dear Cpt. Paladin and Lt. LN Noble.

I have received word about your 80 orc prisoners. Due to the nature of the military operations required and the need to remove this threat from our armies, I have given both of you leave to deal with the prisoners as you see fit. I am unable to send more funds to pay for the mercenaries, and auxillary troops are not available to take the prisoners off your hands. War is harsh, and whatever action you decide to take, I will back you 100% as long as the interests of <INSERT KINGDOM NAME HERE> are withheld. You have so far earned my trust, do not disappoint me.

Good luck, and may your decisions be wise,

1-800-GENERAL

[Dormammu]

What do the PC's want to do?

Are they interested in interrogating, caring for, reforming/pressing into service, or otherwise interacting with POWs? If so it could be an interesting role-play experience. If not, make the PC's aware that they can just order an underling to "Take them back to X under guard, make sure they aren't mis-treated" and move on.

[Telonius]

How "captured" were the orcs - did they surrender lawfully, or was it more like they weren't capable of swinging an axe any more?

I'd strip all the survivors of their arms, armor, and supplies, and ask for an unconditional surrender. For the ones who comply, assign them to a small token force to head back to the kingdom, where they can be imprisoned properly. The transport force will take no food or water whatsoever, but should have one low-level character capable of casting Create Food and Water. If anything happens to him, there's no way the prisoners can make it anywhere alive.

If anybody doesn't surrender unconditionally, kill them or leave them, as the Paladin's conscience dictates.

[atemu1234]

Bait for wandering XP encounters?

[Blackhawk748]

How "captured" were the orcs - did they surrender lawfully, or was it more like they weren't capable of swinging an axe any more?

I'd strip all the survivors of their arms, armor, and supplies, and ask for an unconditional surrender. For the ones who comply, assign them to a small token force to head back to the kingdom, where they can be imprisoned properly. The transport force will take no food or water whatsoever, but should have one low-level character capable of casting Create Food and Water. If anything happens to him, there's no way the prisoners can make it anywhere alive.

If anybody doesn't surrender unconditionally, kill them or leave them, as the Paladin's conscience dictates.

This seems the most humane thing they can do, i mean they only need a lower level cleric to make this work. Also its entirely possible that they may follow the Paladin as orcs generally respect Strength and that Pally whompped them, so some may defect.

[Elkad]

Apply any of the standard fantasy punishments for prisoners. A paladin shouldn't have any problem with that if the law is on their side.

Execution.
Slavery.
Render them unfit to wage war again and then return them to their families (blinding+castration is one of many methods).

[dascarletm]

Apply any of the standard fantasy punishments for prisoners. A paladin shouldn't have any problem with that if the law is on their side.

Execution.
Slavery.
Render them unfit to wage war again and then return them to their families (blinding+castration is one of many methods).

Sounds like a fallen paladin to me.

All of those fit the DnD definition of evil.

[Elkad]

Sounds like a fallen paladin to me.

All of those fit the DnD definition of evil.

Where does it say harsh-but-fair punishment for crimes is evil?

"A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished."

[ranagrande]

That last option really doesn't work in D&D. The mutilated Orcs will go home and find a high level Cleric of Gruumsh to Regenerate them. Then they'll go back for revenge.

[atemu1234]

Where does it say harsh-but-fair punishment for crimes is evil?

"A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished."

True, but they usually have a definition of "cruel and unusual".

[Coidzor]

Obviously you need a Charismatic figure to rally the orcs to their banner and reclaim some of their lost honor.

[Blackhawk748]

Obviously you need a Charismatic figure to rally the orcs to their banner and reclaim some of their lost honor.

"Da Shiny Man is da new Boss!"

[Rater202]

Sounds like a fallen paladin to me.

All of those fit the DnD definition of evil.

Seconding-Slavery is listed in the books as an act that's always evil, and Executing Prisoners because it's convenient is also something I'd rule as evil.

[Coidzor]

"Da Shiny Man is da new Boss!"

Never give PCs prisoners unless there's a clear way to get rid of them without affecting their characters negatively, a clear use for them, or you're prepared for the PCs to try to employ various tactics so that Defeat Means Friendship (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DefeatMeansFriendship).


Seconding-Slavery is listed in the books as an act that's always evil, and Executing Prisoners because it's convenient is also something I'd rule as evil.

What do they say about indentured servitude, though?

[Blackhawk748]

What doe they say about indentured servitude, though?

Considering that indentured servitude has an end time as well as a contract (usually) they would probably be ok with it. Honestly offer the orcs three or four years of servitude to work off the damages they've done. If you do much longer that is a huge chunk of their lives as orcs only make it about 40 years or so.

[redwizard007]

I would suggest bringing in a group of "reserve units" that can take over taking care of the prisoners and move them "offscreen" quickly. That way the PCs can get back to adventuring.

This.

If you want to delve into morality and social issues that have the potential to break up your gaming group than by all means, leave things up to the PCs. If , however, you want to get the adventure back on track and are comfortable working things out behind the curtain then do as Darrin suggested. Have the pally receive word from the temple that they officially hold the opinion of "x should be done with prisoners" for next time, and move on.

[hamishspence]

Sounds like a fallen paladin to me.

All of those fit the DnD definition of evil.

It fits the modern definition (3.0-onward) - not Gygax's though. In a 3.5 campaign, especially one using BoED, it would probably be Evil to do those things - in a 1st ed one it might not be.

[Dr TPK]

This.

If you want to delve into morality and social issues that have the potential to break up your gaming group than by all means, leave things up to the PCs. If , however, you want to get the adventure back on track and are comfortable working things out behind the curtain then do as Darrin suggested. Have the pally receive word from the temple that they officially hold the opinion of "x should be done with prisoners" for next time, and move on.

done with prisoners" for next time, and move on.
Yes, this has been my plan all along. The PCs and the players have other things, more epic (epicer?), on their minds. As the players are informed about the general's decision on the prisoners, they have the right to object and the DM and the general will listen them very carefully.

The reason why I started this thread is the X you mentioned.

Create Food and Water,
They only have two clerics like that in the army who are able to do that. The army is very mundane by D&D standards. The paladin has mostly gotten commoner conscripts due to the lack of options (the kingdom already has two other on-going wars).

[Milodiah]

Using POWs as manual labor is Evil?

I think all historical and many modern militaries would beg to differ.

[AnonymousPepper]

Never give PCs prisoners unless there's a clear way to get rid of them without affecting their characters negatively, a clear use for them, or you're prepared for the PCs to try to employ various tactics so that Defeat Means Friendship (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DefeatMeansFriendship).

Why would you do this to me.

[Coidzor]

Hmm. Well. If their forces are mostly Commoner levies and the kingdom is fighting a war on 3 fronts and thus pretty much screwed unless the heroes succeed...

That probably incentivizes recruiting those they can out of the orcs they've defeated.

As to what the temple might say, that largely depends on what this body of orcs has gotten up to so far and what these orcs have actually done.


Why would you do this to me.

Because I am not a Paladin. Muah. Hah. Hah.

[Brookshw]

Does the enemy army have anything they could be traded for? Prisoners from the PCs kingdom? Captured civilians taken into slavery? A prisoner exchange might be an easy solution.

[dascarletm]

Where does it say harsh-but-fair punishment for crimes is evil?

"A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished."

A lawful execution is one of the most powerful acts to bring someone towards going to hell (See Tyrants of the Nine Hells).

Slavery has been covered by Rater202

The last one, mutilation, pretty text-book evil. Akin to torturing.

[Xelbiuj]

A lawful execution is one of the most powerful acts to bring someone towards going to hell


Lawful doesn't imply whether or not it was just.

Star Trek TNG has an episode whether these people were going to kill Wess for stepping into a garden. Completely lawful, definitely unjust.

Nuremberg trials, lawful and just.

[Brookshw]

Star Trek TNG has an episode whether these people were going to kill Wess for stepping into a garden. Completely lawful, definitely unjust.



Oh c'mon, were talking about Wesley :smalltongue:

[Tarvus]

Prisoner exchange is probably for the best - lets the PC's reap some reward for ending the combat efficiently, effectively and within their alignment. However their tactics might change to focus on capturing more prisoners if you do so, so if this isn't wanted, slip in that this is the last time they'll do this or that they are only doing this because a certain chieftain/noble/*insert title here*'s son was one of the captured.

Barring that, there are spells that let you put people in suspended animation for a time. Hibernate for example. But I think Sepia Snake Sigil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sepiaSnakeSigil.htm) is your best bet. Firstly its permanent until discharged, which means if you can spend a few days of downtime, you can build up a supply. This lets you 1) get enough to cover the entire force all at once and 2) get enough that the prisoner escort can bring some along for the ones that wear off early. It's also relatively low level at Wiz 3. This gives you 1d4+CL days to transport the prisoners wherever you need. I'd suggest taking them to the nearest town - a town should have prison space for at least 20, so put the most powerful in there. The rest can be held in palisades build ala Romans. Just make sure you have an outrider warn the town to prepare.

Edit: Reading it again, SSS *might* be stationary. It targets the creature, but talks about a field. As DM, theres justification for either it moves with the creature or its stuck where it is, inside a stationary field. If you prefer the latter, you can still use the outrider, and the stored extras with a smaller guarding force, to bring resources to the battle field to build a temporary prison and town guards from the nearest town. The various wall spells, Move Earth, and Fabricate (for trees in a wooden palisade) all would help with building this prison.

[Rater202]

Using POWs as manual labor is Evil?

I think all historical and many modern militaries would beg to differ.

By the 3.5 books, Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds, slavery is always evil.

Forced labor is slavery by definition.

Therefore, forcing POW to perform manual labor is Evil by 3.5 RAW.

Please don;t bring in real life examples, this is 3.0/3.5-real world stuff is irrelevant to the discussion.

[hamishspence]

By the 3.5 books, Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds, slavery is always evil.

Forced labor is slavery by definition.


First bit's true - at least for BoED (I don't remember where it's stated in BoVD though) but "forced labor is slavery by definition" is a bit blurrier.

"X years hard labor" can be a court sentence, without the person being reduced to "property, that can be bought and sold".


A lawful execution is one of the most powerful acts to bring someone towards going to hell (See Tyrants of the Nine Hells).

Only if the person is Chaotic Evil - execution is an obesiant act, not a corrupt act. BoED explicitly states that "execution for serious crimes is widely practiced and does not qualify as evil, even if exalted characters might prefer to redeem evildoers)"

[Knaight]

Forced labor is slavery by definition.

Absent the ownership of people, it's really not. This is without getting into how just about every system of slavery came with a whole bunch of horrors of which forces labor was frequently one of the comparatively mild.

[Madhava]

Does the enemy army have anything they could be traded for? Prisoners from the PCs kingdom? Captured civilians taken into slavery? A prisoner exchange might be an easy solution.

Agree. Strip the captives of gear, then exchange, or even ransom, them back to the opposing force.

[atemu1234]

Agree. Strip the captives of gear, then exchange, or even ransom, them back to the opposing force.

Or there's the exalted option:

Treat them kindly, give them food, only fight when you need to and use nonlethal force. Tell them that this is what your god tells you to do; if your DM is halfway reasonable about it, then they can be set up with a nice little abbey, become a church to your deity and be your allies, as well as a middle ground in the war, perhaps healers who pull the nightingale thing.

[golentan]

Is it suddenly a crime or evil to serve in an opposing army? I wasn't aware that orc warlords tended to run all volunteer armies, for example...

Executing the grunts who surrendered kind of invalidates the point of that surrender. Surely it would have been more humane to kill them on the field or let them flee when their army was broken than to drag out their death only to fill a mass grave.

You can ransom them back to their people. You could have them give their parole, place some sort of mark to identify parolees, and tell them that if they are caught fighting against you again you will execute them without question (a very old-world method of dealing with this dilemma). You can set up a POW camp until the war is over. You can impress them to dig latrines for you. You can disarm them and turn them loose. You can offer them citizenship if they denounce their former leaders. You can mix and match any of the above. But if the paladin orders anything that resembles the phrase "mass grave," I think he deserves to fall that moment.

[Brookshw]

Absent the ownership of people, it's really not. This is without getting into how just about every system of slavery came with a whole bunch of horrors of which forces labor was frequently one of the comparatively mild.

Probably a grey area a mile wide on that one. Being forced to go into the mines day after day, with no say in the matter is pretty close whether you're technically "owned" or not can definitely have some issues. Making some kid clap out the black board erasers instead of recess for talking during class, probably not going to cause paladins to be kicking in the food to smite teacher, probably not so much. Additional factors; living condition, duration, cause of labor, stand out in my mind as things to consider.

[Xelbiuj]

Is it suddenly a crime or evil to serve in an opposing army?
I wasn't aware that orc warlords tended to run all volunteer armies, for example...

Fair enough but it can be if that army is committing war crimes.

As for the possibility of execution invalidating the option to surrender, the option of a fair trial counters this point. If they're innocent it makes sense to surrender. Perhaps (and I know this board hates r/l examples) only officers or members of a special unit are guilty of attacks on civilian populations. Perhaps none for that matter, we don't really have enough info.

Even though I think I originally came out against it, bind them and force march them to the nearest city capable of holding that many prisoners. Most of them should die along the way anyways, and it shouldn't take a ton of people to escort them. There is no moral obligation to stop your (military) campaign for the sake of hyper-sensitive prisoner treatment. War is hell.

[golentan]

Key word, Fair. If warcrimes have been committed, each orc deserves to make their case for themselves before an impartial court, not be judged en masse, in a kangaroo court or a summary field judgement.

[hamishspence]

Probably a grey area a mile wide on that one. Being forced to go into the mines day after day, with no say in the matter is pretty close whether you're technically "owned" or not can definitely have some issues. Making some kid clap out the black board erasers instead of recess for talking during class, probably not going to cause paladins to be kicking in the food to smite teacher, probably not so much. Additional factors; living condition, duration, cause of labor, stand out in my mind as things to consider.

Where slavery's illegal, a person can be a slave "in practice" despite never actually having been bought or sold by anyone. Because they've been kidnapped and are being forced to work by somebody (with force, threats, starvation etc being used).

[Brookshw]

Where slavery's illegal, a person can be a slave "in practice" despite never actually having been bought or sold by anyone. Because they've been kidnapped and are being forced to work by somebody (with force, threats, starvation etc being used).

Agreed, De Facto slavery defined by ownership may not exist but De Jure slavery still could. I would take this within the scope of D&D to mean forced labor comparable to slavery would fall within the prescriptions of an Evil act.

[hamishspence]

Is it suddenly a crime or evil to serve in an opposing army?
I wasn't aware that orc warlords tended to run all volunteer armies, for example...

Fair enough but it can be if that army is committing war crimes.

If one is invoking war crimes - that should be applied impartially. If "war crime" is treated as "act that warrants some kind of sentence, and the Fall of a paladin or exalted character" then it should be kept in mind that summary execution of prisoners, inhumane treatment of prisoners, etc are war crimes as well.

[dascarletm]

Only if the person is Chaotic Evil - execution is an obesiant act, not a corrupt act. BoED explicitly states that "execution for serious crimes is widely practiced and does not qualify as evil, even if exalted characters might prefer to redeem evildoers)"

Ah that's right.

My mistake

[Knaight]

Probably a grey area a mile wide on that one. Being forced to go into the mines day after day, with no say in the matter is pretty close whether you're technically "owned" or not can definitely have some issues. Making some kid clap out the black board erasers instead of recess for talking during class, probably not going to cause paladins to be kicking in the food to smite teacher, probably not so much. Additional factors; living condition, duration, cause of labor, stand out in my mind as things to consider.

There's a lot of grey area, starting with questions of de jour ownership. Plus, it's not like not being slavery automatically makes labor practices ethical. There are a lot of very horrible things that can be done without getting to slavery, and I'd consider your mines example to often be one of those - even if the forces in question are more on the economic pressure side than the point of a sword. There are also several distinct types of slavery, and while they're all awful, they differ in the particular way they're awful.

Take plantation slavery though, as one example. Forced work was a part of that, yes. It was one of the horrors. Others included routine beatings, the shattering of families, extremely common rape of slaves by slave owners, so on and so forth. Forced labor is just the tip of that horrifying iceberg.

[Yahzi]

I didn't see any mention of the classic response - impressement. Let them sit for a day or two without any food or water. Then tell them they can join your army or be executed. Make sure there's an ox roasting in the background when you make the offer.

Of course you'll never really trust them, and you'll put them out in front of every battle. But lots of generals went to war with units they couldn't rely on. That's part of generalship. Troops will fight for their lives, the esteem of their fellow soldiers, and food. I mean, they're orcs. It's not like its a big crime for an orc to kill an orc. They do it all the time.

After you win the war, parole them the same way you do the rest of the orc nation. Unless you're on a genocidal campaign... but if you were, you would have already slaughtered the prisoners.