Binder or Occultist? Which do you prefer?

[Almarck]

Alright, so this is not a rant thread or me trying to incite a flame war, but rather, I am quite curious about what people think when comparing the two very binding subsystem, their primary class, and repertoire of Vestiges and Spirits.

My thoughts:*

I like Binders for their lore. Each Vestige comes with a simple history and reasons to justify that power. Each Vestige has a seal and evokes images of ritual magic.

I like Occultists mechanically because they seem to take the basic mechanics and polish and tidy them up in a neat and organized fashion. Everything scales now.


I want to know what you guys think about them, their failings, their advantages over the other binder, in fact, even favorite spirits/Vestiges that the other doesn't have access to.


And of course, if there really is a better "objective" binder.

[Psyren]

I compared them pretty extensively in my handbook - ultimately Occultists have the better chassis and they're on their way to having the better spirits too. I think the Binder currently has more engaging influences though, and it's also better at multiclassing (though that is a PF design philosophy thing anyway.)

[Silva Stormrage]

I am going to back occultist, though I will admit that I like to port Binder Vestiges as occultist spirits :smalltongue:

The occultist just has more useful spirits. With Binder its bind Zerycil and the other choices are kinda meaningless. Not that I don't love Zerycil its just odd playing a class that gets its main ability at 10th level.

Also Occultists get their second spirt at 6th instead of 8th which helps A LOT.

[Vhaidara]

If I were to choose one, it would probably be the Occultist. Now, I do love to work to make them compatible, but the Occultist gets even more versatility (which is a big focus of the class), a much more balanced set of options (no Zyrcell), a better chassis, and more potential support (Ssalarn has mentioned possibly trying to work with Radiance House to mix Akashic and Occult).

Though my favorite was still an E6 Gestalt where I got to go Binder//Occultist. Bind Savnok for armor and the Hobgoblin general (forget the name), and you turn into a respectable tank.

[Almarck]

What's with up Zyrcell? it's been a while, so I don't know what's up with him.

Also, there's some new vestiges some time ago. One of them grants armor.

And, I guess everyone loves occultist. Man.

[Vhaidara]

Zyrcell gives you Summon Monster on a 5 round cd. At will. Literally, this is the "MOAR BOYZ" mentality. You just keeping throwing infinite expendable minions at something until it dies.

[Almarck]

Hm, well, Forash (pact magic 2) does the same, but the cool down starts after the monster is offed, but it runs off of Summon Nature's Ally with the bonus the creature has the Fiendish template. And is receivable at level 1... so... I have no idea if it's as gamebreaking.

Oh, also, man, I would love Binders + Incarnum Mechanics.

[Psyren]

Forash (http://alharadnd.wikidot.com/forash) is always limited to one critter at a time, and the duration is limited to 4 rounds instead of being as the spell. Zceryll lets you pump them out every time the cooldown is up and the duration is rounds/lvl. So you can get an idea of which is more broken from that.

Granted, there are definitely other ways to break the game with an Occultist, but summons aren't it.

Also, personally I feel the higher level spirits definitely trump the higher level vestiges (except again for Zceryll.)



Also, there's some new vestiges some time ago. One of them grants armor.


All the vol 1. and vol 2. spirits are OGL and posted online here. (http://alharadnd.wikidot.com/occultist-spirits)

[Silva Stormrage]

The one thing I can think of in Binder's defense is that there are a LOT of homebrew vestiges out there. That is certainly something, but good luck have the DM read through all of them :smalltongue:

[Blackhawk748]

I like the Binder more, mainly because of FLUFF EVERYWHERE!!!! Also i like their powers more, this is because the Occultist powers i read (and ill be honest i skimmed) seemed to be, get this spell, and this passive. Now thats fine, i just like the Binders powers because many of them cant really be replicated and i think thats cool.

[Almarck]

I agree. I like Binder's fluff more. One of the big disappointments I have with Pact Magic Vol 2 is the lack of fluff for vestiges. You quite literally have to get the 3.5 versions of the book to get the fluff.

[Vortenger]

I love both but have to add my hat to the Occultist camp. More meaningful options and faster access to your main source of power with nearly all of the flavor puts it ahead in my book. The loss of the psionic vestiges, Zceryll, and Astaroth (the crafting one, not the other Astaroth vestige) certainly hurt, though. (Plus, you can't make Ashardalon Reborn (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3401506) without a few key vestiges, and thats one of the coolest build concepts I've ever seen.)

Simple question though: Why not both? The binder's vestiges are more or less on par with the Occultist's spirits. Why not just use the occult chassis and convert the vestiges over? You have an even more versatile character with a huge wealth of options that still won't knock down nations like a sorcerer. Well, probably not...

[Psyren]

Occultist doesn't need crafting vestiges due to (a) PF crafting rules and (b) Pact Magic Effigy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/radiance-house/occultist/binder-secrets/binder-secret-pact-magic-effigy).



Simple question though: Why not both? The binder's vestiges are more or less on par with the Occultist's spirits. Why not just use the occult chassis and convert the vestiges over? You have an even more versatile character with a huge wealth of options that still won't knock down nations like a sorcerer. Well, probably not...

It's behind sorcerer certainly, but you can get Occultist to T2 if you go all out and the DM does not step in. Muse Istago, Essek Avix, Fey Baraddu, Dark Blood, Loh'moi.... there's a lot of power there and Vol 2. adds even more, like spammable Holy Word/SNAIX, immortality and a host of other effects.

[Vortenger]

Shhhh... I'm trying to make the class seem more 'balanced', not less. You're not helping. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Shhhh... I'm trying to make the class seem more 'balanced', not less. You're not helping. :smalltongue:

Hey, Binder can get to T2 as well :smallbiggrin: and it really does take a lot to get Occultists that high - it's not a simple matter of "learn Gate/PAO, end."