[Pathfinder + Path of War] Gestalt PoW classes? Advice wanted

[Arbane]

I may be making a character for a (rather high-powered) PF game. The GM said to make a gestalt character, and that Path of War was OK, so I was thinking...

Warlord//Sorcerer: Probably DEX-based, to skip arcane spell-failure %.
Druid//Stalker: The ultimate nature ninja... who can turn into a bear, too.

Anyone tried doing anything like these? Any advice? We're starting at first level, and I was planning on playing a human.

[Sayt]

Warder//Magus could be interesting, Spell and Board. You lose the critting spells aspect, but you gain a hell of a lot of survivability.

Here's the thing: the Path of War characters are very much looking to be the 'active' part of a gestalt, their action economy well spent, compared to say, a fighter.

The Psychic Warrior, with it's focus on self buffing and it's limited ability to self-buff on attack rolls makes it a good pair for Stalker, IMHO.

[Arbane]

Warder//Magus could be interesting, Spell and Board. You lose the critting spells aspect, but you gain a hell of a lot of survivability.

That could be fun. But don't you need a free hand for the spellcasting?
I was thinking maybe Warder//Alchemist, to avoid spell-failure problems and throw bombs.



Here's the thing: the Path of War characters are very much looking to be the 'active' part of a gestalt, their action economy well spent, compared to say, a fighter.


Yeah, that was my impression. I was thinking I'd take mostly non-combat or support spells if I went with a caster, and just stick to breaking faces PoW style in combat.

I was seriously considering Warlord//Oracle to Battle Templar, as it's got some nice abilities for fast-casting. (And with gestalt, I could still get 9th level spells someday!) But I already have an Oracle character and I want to try something new.

Oh, another possibility: Warlord//Bard. LEAD ALL THE THINGS! :smallsmile:

[Andreaz]

Warder//Aegis. Aegis covers most of the bases for a strong defense, counters give you the rest. Evasion, Energy Resistance, alternative movement types, extra perceptions and Increased Size and Powerful Build are guaranteed, freeing up for other kinds of stances for you. Counters work as usual. Bring the pain with a Broken Blade Stylist by ignoring DR and destroying enemy's armors as a matter of fact and trip, blind and push every enemy you hit because you can, or an Iron Tortoise Stylist to do 3d6 shield bashes sprinkled with extra attacks (add shield slam and bashing finish if you go critfisher to be extra offensive)

I'm very fond of Riven Hourglass. Sub it for primal fury if you can.

[Nightraiderx]

Warder/Magus can work but you don't sword and board, you use the Zweihander Sentinel archetype, get a falchion, and you are good to go.


A monk/stalker is a weird but interesting fit, you can use broken blade style to get some mileage out of your unarmed strike.
Master of many styles monk is fun as hell with stalker.

Bard/Warlord for the "I help the party with cool gimicks" tricks. or even better yet Warlord/Skald for the effective rage.

[Sayt]

That could be fun. But don't you need a free hand for the spellcasting?

Shield in one hand, free hand the other. Spellstrike with Shield Bashes.

And actually, I completely forgot the Skirnir (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/skirnir) archetype, for extra synergy.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think a good choice might be Dervish Defender Warder/Dragon Fury//Investigator. You can combine one of the best high damage/high health builds with the best (in my opinion) skillmonkey in the game. You'll get D12 hit dice, full BAB and all good saves all the way up to 20th level. You'll have Investigator's crazy skill list, studied strike, and Extracts to apply to your Warder's high powered maneuvers and defensive abiltity. You can go Strength or Dexterity focused, although I like the idea of going Dex focused with an unarmed strike build so that you can make Batman.

EDIT: As a side note, the only skill you won't have as a class skill is Fly.

[Ssalarn]

Seconding the suggestion of Warder//Magus (Skirnir). Use your shield for Spellstrike/Spell Combat, load up on counters and boosts, and go to town.

Warlord//Paladin could also be really good. They don't give quite as much to each other, but they stack really nicely and it shouldn't be at all difficult to come up with a build that features very complimentary action economy from each half.

Stalker//Slayer for when things just absolutley have to die, right now. Full BAB from Slayer, damage boosts from Stalker, tons of combinations of feats and talents.

Warlord//Sorcerer (Draconic bloodline)/Dragon Disciple - play a nagaji and make everyone call you the Dragon Emperor. Stick with lots of buffs and utility for your sorcerer spells and you've got a pretty awesome combo.

Warder (Hawkguard)//Investigator - it's like Sherlock Holmes in an M1 Abrams.

Warlord//Skald - aka the Buffmeister 5000.

[Kaidinah]

Daevic (Dominion)// Bannerman Warlord or Vanguard Commander Warlord- lots of synergy here. Lots of team focus and a focus on shield combat. Veils allow the initiator to have strong passive abilities such as DR, skill bonuses, and major damage boosts.

Vizier (Seer path)// Warder- honestly, vizier loves to be gestalted. In this case many veils support primal fury usage. Also easy access to DR helps this tank stay alive. With what vizier can do with teamwork feats too, golden lion is strengthened.

[Ssalarn]

Daevic (Dominion)// Bannerman Warlord or Vanguard Commander Warlord- lots of synergy here. Lots of team focus and a focus on shield combat. Veils allow the initiator to have strong passive abilities such as DR, skill bonuses, and major damage boosts.

Vizier (Seer path)// Warder- honestly, vizier loves to be gestalted. In this case many veils support primal fury usage. Also easy access to DR helps this tank stay alive. With what vizier can do with teamwork feats too, golden lion is strengthened.

One of my current characters for an on-again-off-again game is actually a Vizier (Seer)/Warder :)
It's fun having a character who basically plays like a tactical genius on the field, and then is a canny merchant and back-up skill-monkey off the field.

[facelessminion]

Personally, I can't help but feel like a -dual- path of war gestalt could be pretty darn cool. A warder/harbinger springs to mind, zweihander sentinel in particular - you're getting to be wonderfully SAD in regards to intelligence, and get ridiculous area control - the Warder ability to get tons of AOOs also merges very, very nicely with the harbinger ability to use maneuvers on AOOs.

[Gulnar]

Why not warlord and Summoner? Both scale off charisma, so it seems good on paper. Summoner isn't as action intensive as usual arcanist - you usually pre-buff and cast some utility spells, not actively cast in combat - so the other side, the warlord, can shine, by spamming maneuvers. And you get free teamwork feats, so you could even run broodmaster to have a deadly platoon of eidolons. And the warlord chassis has d10 life, high bab, and your only low save is reflex. And if you really care about saves you could splash for anti/paladin and get cha to saves too.

[Arbane]

I'm thinking I might go with Dervish Defender Warder//Investigator, so a few questions:

1: If you have Improved Unarmed Strike, does that count as 'having a weapon in each hand' for their Two-Weapon Defense?
2: If not, can you use Broken Blade maneuvers with kicks while dual-wielding non-BB weapons?
3: Why are bayonets and katars on the 'close weapons' list, but not DAGGERS? WTF, devs....

[Ssalarn]

I'm thinking I might go with Dervish Defender Warder//Investigator, so a few questions:

1: If you have Improved Unarmed Strike, does that count as 'having a weapon in each hand' for their Two-Weapon Defense?
2: If not, can you use Broken Blade maneuvers with kicks while dual-wielding non-BB weapons?
3: Why are bayonets and katars on the 'close weapons' list, but not DAGGERS? WTF, devs....

1) You can Two Weapon Fight with unarmed strikes, so it should, although a GM could be a little anal about the wording.

2) I can't speak to intent on that one, but you should be able to since a kick is a valid unarmed strike.

3) Only Paizo knows. My guess would be that it's already in two weapon groups and they didn't want it creating too big a bridge for feats like Martial Versatility, and presumably they picture it as more of a finesse weapon like the other light blades, and less of a punching type weapon like most of the other close weapons.

[Kaidinah]

That combo sounds strong. You'll be a strong skill-user and still be very relevant in combat.

What kind of concept will he be? Some kind of Sherlock Holmes?

Also I came up with another combo I consider very cool. Stalker//Brawler! For making a truly awesome monk.

[Arbane]

That combo sounds strong. You'll be a strong skill-user and still be very relevant in combat.

What kind of concept will he be? Some kind of Sherlock Holmes?


BATMAN. :smallbiggrin:

Edit to add: I just finished playing the Arkham City video-game a few days ago, and it occurs to me that the way Batman goes leaping around the battlefield from goon to goon could be considered a pretty good representation of the Zone of Nope.

[Kaidinah]

Gosh, I love that nickname. The Zone of Nope. Enjoy playing the Batman!

[Arbane]

Gosh, I love that nickname. The Zone of Nope. Enjoy playing the Batman!

Thanks, but honesty forces me to admit I didn't think it up - I got it from Elricaltovilla's Warder Guide. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nuni1TCzVXyhx4rFWjNcEjuDS6goL9hLQDE4il_tzH8/edit)

[Kaidinah]

Thanks, but honesty forces me to admit I didn't think it up - I got it from Elricaltovilla's Warder Guide. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nuni1TCzVXyhx4rFWjNcEjuDS6goL9hLQDE4il_tzH8/edit) Believe me, I already know. I got the account here at GitP because those guides were linked on another forum. I registered to more easily find guides of similar quality, and have not been disappointed.

[Arbane]

Looks like the groups already got a Something//Investigator. I may go with Dervish Warder//Wizard instead, and go mainly with utility spells.

Since "Batman Wizard" is a thing, after all.

Would any specific subtype of wizard work well with warder?

[Jigawatts]

I'm playing a Warder//Psion (Nomad) in a PbP game right now, and having a blast with it.

[Taveena]

Warder//Vizier has some really nice int-synergy, and fits the classic active/passive gestalt split. Use Vizier to amp up your strikes and the like. (Warlord//Daevic and Stalker//Guru are also plausible.)

[Deadkitten]

I had plans of doing a Kensai Hexcrafter Magus gestalted with Warder. I was gonna go down the Frostbite+Rime Spell+Enforcer+Sickening weapon line.
My plan was to make the most annoying AoO character I could.

Unfortunately my DM feels PoW is too powerfull...and he is letting a Gunslinger use double barreled pistols..... >_<

[Elricaltovilla]

Looks like the groups already got a Something//Investigator. I may go with Dervish Warder//Wizard instead, and go mainly with utility spells.

Since "Batman Wizard" is a thing, after all.

Would any specific subtype of wizard work well with warder?

I don't think you need a particular type of wizard. I'd probably grab an arcane bonded item instead of a familiar and focus on Transmutation, Conjuration and Divination for maximum buffing/utility.

[Andreaz]

Warder//Vizier has some really nice int-synergy, and fits the classic active/passive gestalt split. Use Vizier to amp up your strikes and the like. (Warlord//Daevic and Stalker//Guru are also plausible.)
Synergy indeed. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/akashic-magic/veils#TOC-Light-Whip)

[Taveena]

... Christ, I never even thought of how potent a Warder with Light Whip could be. That's... I mean you can even use your int mod both to determine your CMB and your number of AoOs. It's perfect.

[Arbane]

Warder//Vizier has some really nice int-synergy, and fits the classic active/passive gestalt split. Use Vizier to amp up your strikes and the like. (Warlord//Daevic and Stalker//Guru are also plausible.)

I think I'll go with this, and not just for the "TRIP ALL THE THINGS" combo. :smallbiggrin: I didn't really feel like playing a caster.
(It helps that the Vizier is on the SRD. Not the other akashic classes, for some reason.)

Quick question on Akasha stuff: if you bind a veil to a chakra, you get the normal benefit from the veil in addition to the chakra-specific one, right?

[Vhaidara]

BATMAN. :smallbiggrin:

Edit to add: I just finished playing the Arkham City video-game a few days ago, and it occurs to me that the way Batman goes leaping around the battlefield from goon to goon could be considered a pretty good representation of the Zone of Nope.

False. Batman is not a Warder//Investigator. He is a Harbinger//Investigator. After all, Harbinger is literally powered by childhood trauma.

[Milo v3]

(It helps that the Vizier is on the SRD. Not the other akashic classes, for some reason.)

Quick question on Akasha stuff: if you bind a veil to a chakra, you get the normal benefit from the veil in addition to the chakra-specific one, right?

Vizier is the only one on the SRD, since the other two are not yet published, and you do gain both the normal benefit and the bind benefit if you bind a veil to a chakra.

[Jack_Simth]

I may be making a character for a (rather high-powered) PF game. The GM said to make a gestalt character, and that Path of War was OK, so I was thinking...

Warlord//Sorcerer: Probably DEX-based, to skip arcane spell-failure %.
Druid//Stalker: The ultimate nature ninja... who can turn into a bear, too.

Anyone tried doing anything like these? Any advice? We're starting at first level, and I was planning on playing a human.

Well, the standard Gestalt Advice still applies in Pathfinder. Let's see... ah, looks like I did one of these recently:

Well, when working with Gestalt, and especially with the Savage Progressions in Savage Species, one of the first things to ask your DM is how the table feels about 'staggering'. Take the Ghaele... actually, no, that one gives full casting up to 14th, oddly. Take the Rakshaka, instead. That gets Sorcerer casting equal to it's hit dice from class levels (contextually, class levels usually means 'in this class', and I'm going with that interpretation for the example - this may or may not be true at your gaming table) - so the Rakshaka gives Sorcerer casting at 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th. What happens if you pair that with Sorcerer at 1st, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, and 14th+, pairing with some other class at 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th (like, two levels in Monk [making sure to pick up the Ascetic Mage feat for Charisma to AC] for Evasion, three levels in Hexblade for Charisma to most saves and Mettle, and... two levels in a variant Paladin for Charisma to saves again)? Are you casting as a Sorcerer-14 at 14th level, or do you have two separate progressions?

One of the next things to sort out is: "How optimized do you want the character?" - a character that is significantly more or less powerful than the characters the other players bring to the table is disruptive to the game. I'm in no position to judge that; you know the people you've played with. It is very much something to keep in mind, however.

Another thing to watch is your ability scores: You don't want to get MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependant). A Sorcerer//Monk might look good at first glance (all those spells and class features!) but without a hefty amount of work, it's got a real problem: Needs Strength to deal damage, Dexterity and Wisdom to avoid getting hit, Con to soak what hits get through, and Charisma to power spells. That's five high scores you need... if you're going to play it as both a Sorcerer and a Monk, anyway. A Druid//Monk, on the other hand, needs... Wisdom (AC, Spells) and Con (hit points): Just two high scores (Strength and Dex become irrelevant after Wildshape comes online, and there's no dependancy on Int or Cha). It makes for a stronger combination because of the better ability focus.

Another thing to watch for is your action economy: You can spend your standard actions casting spells, or you can spend your full round actions hitting things, but you can't do both. If your classes don't work well together, that's going to detract from the character's ability to interact with the campaign. Generally speaking, you want things that work well with each other - something that passively adds to what you want (like how the Rouge's sneak attack takes no action to add to a spell with an attack roll) or does non-action defences (like how the Monk's AC bonus or the Paladin's Divine Grace are always on and take no action) while you take your actions based on the other class (usually spells, but not always). Do note that for this purpose, long-duration spells (and often, swift-action spells) count as passive. So a Cloistered Cleric//Monk might use the Monk side for passive defence while zapping merrily away with Cleric spells, or might use a little DMM(Persist) and inherently long-duration buffs to become a very powerful melee machine, smashing faces in battle. Which is the better option for a specific character depends on stat and feat distribution. It is, however, very much something to watch.

Another thing to check up on is how the table feels about dipping. A lot of classes - especially the more martial-oriented - are rather front-loaded: The Monk picks up a spare attack on a full attack at 1st, Evasion and the AC bonus at 2nd. It makes a GREAT 2-level dip for anything with a Wisdom focus (or a Charisma focus, or an Int focus, if you find the right feats for it). The Paladin picks up Heavy Armor proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, and shield proficiency at first; Divine Grace at second. The Paladin ALSO makes a great 2-level dip for anything with a Charisma focus. Similarly, Ninja is a great two-level dip for anything wis-focused (swift-action invisibility, AC bonus), Hexblade for Charisma (Arcane Resistance, Mettle), Fighter gives really useful bonus feats at 1st and 2nd, Barbarian gives you +10 foot move and (with the right alternate class feature) Pounce. And so on. You can make a much stronger character overall by doing a noticable dip-fest on one side and making the other relatively pure (usually a 'pure caster' - that is, a Full Casting class with PrC's that are also full casting). Figure out how your table feels about this sort of build.

Another thing to watch out for is losing focus. Pick a role, pick your primary based on that role, and pick your secondary as something that'll help that along. You've only got one set of feats, one set of equipment, and one set of ability scores. If you try to both be the Master Rogue and the Master Caster, you will most likely end up coming short on both. If you focus on the Master Rogue and use the casting to supplement that, or focus on the Master Caster and use the rogue to supplement that, you're going to do a lot better.

Finally: Pay attention to power curves. Full Casters tend to rule the roost starting at mid to high levels. Meatshields tend to rule the roost at low levels and fall away at mid to high levels. Skillmonkies tend to be middle-roaders the entire way. When you're starting at first, you'll want to make sure to pick something that'll be at least middle-road or better initially, and make sure you've got Full Casting for later.

For your specific case, consider the Wizard//Sorcerer for a moment:
You've got two casting stats (Int, Cha), need Dex for AC, and Con for HP. That's Four attributes in which to put high scores and your equipment.
You've got a rather lot of spells... that you'll pretty much never get through due to action economy problems (both sets take standard actions, so...).
You've got your focus in mind....
... but you're forgetting power curves. Both the Sorcerer and the Wizard are pretty lackluster at low levels.
Additionally, you've only got one good save, half-bab, a VERY LOW hit die, and few skills.

Consider your Druid//Stalker:
Wisdom based casting, Wisdom-based manuevers, wisdom-based class features. You'll need Strength for the melee stuff, as well as Dex (but not nearly as much of either once Wildshape comes online), Con (For HP), and Wis. Four abilities at the first, two later on. This is much improved, power-wise.
You've got a choice between Druid buffs with natural attacks, blasting with spells, or mixing it up with manuevers. Better, as certain schools of manuevers get to use natural attacks. A lot of what you've got here is additive, which is a good thing.
You're a skillmonkey (mid-range on the power curve) and a Full Caster (low start, high end) which will work out pretty well across most levels.
d8 hit die, two good saves, 6+Int skills, 3/4ths BAB.
Overall, much improved from a power perspective - but the goal of the game is fundamentally FUN, and if you don't have that, power doesn't matter.