Weapon Based Mage

[j_spencer93]

For a player i am looking to make a mage based on weapon spells (making their own swords, shurikens, etc) but am not sure what class would be best for it? Duskblade seems to be a nice dip for the ability to channel your touch spells into your created weapons but beyond that i have little idea how to make him.

[Troacctid]

I suppose the obvious answer is Soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm).

[j_spencer93]

um i know of soul knife lol actually really like that class. However, we are looking to build a mage focused in using spells that create a variety of weapons. Wu Jen get needles, scarves, knives, etc and duskblade wouldnt be a bad combo if i could find a prestige class that progressed both.

[gorfnab]

What about using the feat Spell Thematics set to "weapons"?

[j_spencer93]

lol once again i know of that feat. Maybe i am not being clear. I want to make a build focused on spells like blade of blood, lightning blade, rain of needles, fire shuriken, etc. Is there a good way to do this?

[Tiri]

Spell Thematics is such a waste of a feat. I think there was already something written about being able to customize spell appearance within the description given.

[Forrestfire]

The obvious answer is really not soulknife, since that class fails to be viable unless you really optimize it (and even then, isn't amazing unless you cheese out Soulbow). To do a soulknife that actually works, I suggest the Psychic Warrior ACF in here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a). Much more fun to play, still lets you summon up your not!lightsaber.

Personally, I think it might be neat to possibly use a Cleric. There's a lot of spells that make weapons (here's a non-comprehensive list) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?149163-3-5-Weapon-Spells-%28not-gish%29), and Clerics get some of the neat ones (Cloud of Knives, Ice Axe, Spiritual Weapon, some others).

However, one especially neat thing for Cleric is the Customize Domain feat from Dragon 325. Specifically, if you have the Destruction domain, you can swap out its spells for any evocation spells that deal damage from a spell list you have access to. A sorcerer or wizard dip gets you the important ones. So, for example, you could do this, as a build:

Race: Human
Class: Cleric (Destruction domain, Planning Domain*, Spontaneous Domain Casting (Destruction) ACFPHB2) 1/Wizard (Combat Wizard ACFUA) 1/Cleric +n
Feats:

1st - Extend Spelldomain bonus, Persistent Spellhuman bonus, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
2nd - open Fighter bonus feat slotwizard bonus
3rd - open slot or Extra Turning (if Charisma isn't amazing, or you don't have access to stuff to give you extra turning uses)
6th - Customize Domain (Destruction) (qualified for by Versatile Spellcaster)
9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th - open slots

For the customized domain, you'd want something like:

Persistent BladeSpC - makes a flying dagger out of force that floats around to attack things
Flame DaggerSpC - makes a dagger out of flame that you can touch attack people with for 1d4+CL damage, or Blade of Pain and FearSpC - similar thing, but does less damage and makes them frightened(!)
SteeldanceSpC - animates two daggers to attack on their own on your turn, using your casting mod for attacks and damage. Not technically making, but fairly close.
ThunderlanceSpC - makes an extending (up to 20ft reach) spear that does 3d6 damage and bases its attack rolls on Cha, dispels defensive Force effects.
Sword of DeceptionSpC - makes a flying sword that attacks each round and imposes a cumulative penalty on the saves of its targets
open slot, I don't know of a decent 6th-level spell that makes a weapon. Worst comes to worst, any evocation that does damage could fit here
Sword of DarknessSpC - makes a flying sword that attacks each round gives negative levels to things it hits
Prismatic BowComplete Mage - not amazing, but decent enough. Makes a bow that shoots prismatic spray colors as arrows.
Lash of ForceComplete Mage - makes a bunch of waving whips of force that hit things for damage as an immediate action


The key thing in this build is that Persistent Spell interacts incredibly well with most of these spells. Cloud of Knives (already on the Cleric list), Spiritual Weapon, and every single one of the spells on that customized domain list can be persisted to stick around all day as a floating pet weapon. It could be super awesome, and since the character is spending resources to do this instead of planar binding or being a melee monster, the standard CoDzilla problems don't really come into play.

EDIT: Also, regarding Spell Thematics: the feat is redundant, iirc it's DMG p.34, or close to there, that states refluffing of spells is something players are allowed (and encouraged) to do.

[j_spencer93]

Well that is interesting but was thinking duskblade....if not cleric should work. Is there a way to get more wizard/sorcerer spells for the weapons feats i would be lacking?

[Forrestfire]

Not particularly. You could get runestaves or a drake helm of the spells, but that relies on having items that come online way later, and I'd imagine that part of the character's concept involves being relatively self-sufficient (otherwise he'd be just using normal weapons, I guess?). Duskblade does have advanced learning and such, and there's Extra Spell to get off-list stuff, but the slow spell progression means that the weapon spells you get access to won't be especially useful at the levels you get them.

One thing to note is that if a character uses a touch-range spell, they can channel it through an unarmed strike. So, if a cleric has a Monk's Belt or the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, they can effectively emulate a Duskblade's arcane channeling with their fists, then use the weapons flying around to supplement the attacks.

[j_spencer93]

Actually thinking wizard be the based way, and maybe a feat to snag cleric spells if their is one.

[Forrestfire]

It's possible. They get most of the neat spells for it, but they don't have the fun trick of persisting their main one to throw lots of daggers/have a floaty pet sword at all times. Wizard and Cleric both do the concept very well, though.

[j_spencer93]

Its an idea been floating around in my head and we just had a PC die, and he liked the idea too so now im just trying to get it to work. Thinking a high dex and int be crucial and maybe a way to cast magic in light armor.

[Tiri]

Battle Sorcerer? If all your spells are going to be weaponlike the few spells known might be OK.

[Feint's End]

So you actually want to gish instead of just creating weapons with spells? Because the latter can be done by spell thematics or just generally refluffing spells (as long as you don't want to fight yourself really). Otherwise refluffing on a gish build I suppose. You shouldn't go Duskblade ... your spell selection is much too limited.

On a related note. Battle Sorcerer is never OK.

[j_spencer93]

Thinking just wizard now. Duskblade didnt really add anything and sorcerer doesnt really seem to be any better then wizard in this. Now, i only need a way to boost my hp apparently, and maybe find a way to wear light armor and make full plate light armor lol these two options arent necessary but would be a huge help.

[Forrestfire]

If playing a wizard, why not skip the armor and summon your own? (Greater) Mage Armor* and Luminous Armor are awesome. Use the DMG's passage to refluff your abjurations as summoned semitransparent armor rather than conjured force fields.

Martial Wizard 6/Swiftblade 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade +6 is an awesomely fun gish build (I've played it, can vouch) that gets to run around hitting things while staying mostly safe thanks to the force fields and superspeed miss chance. Overall BAB is +18 and CL is 17.

Wizard 4 or Battle Sorcerer 3/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom n is another pretty decent one. The "fightyness" of the build comes online a few levels earlier, and it only loses two caster levels, rather than three. Overall BAB +18 (or +19 with Battle Sorcerer entry) and CL is 18. I wouldn't recommend Battle Sorcerer though.

Wizard 5/full casting PrC 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 5 is an odd one that focuses more on the spellcasting. Overall BAB is +15 or +16 (depending on if the PrC you find is half or 3/4ths BAB), but CL is 19, and you only lose a caster level at level 11.

*Note: technically Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor are not affected by the Abjurant Champion's abjurant armor ability, but the ability itself mentions them, so the RAI is clear. As you're the DM, I'd suggest allowing an abjuration variant of the spells to be learned, since it just makes sense.


Honorable mention: Artificer 20, although depending on the player this is either a terrible suggestion or a fun suggestion. Either it's terrible because the class is absurdly powerful when optimized to a high-level and if the player can't hold back a bit, then he breaks the game, or it's terrible because the class is hideously complex to use and if the player is unfamiliar with it, it'll quickly become an aggravating mess... Or it's awesome, because of the interaction between Concurrent Infusions (Spell-Storing Item)4th-level infusion and Metamagic Item3rd-level infusion, and later on, Metamagic Spell Completionability, level 11 and Minor Schemasitem, MoE.

Basically, Concurrent Infusions can be used to emulate the Spell-Storing Item infusion without its exp cost, making a temporary 1-use wand of any spell of 1st to 4th level. Metamagic Item lets you apply a metamagic feat to that "wand", such as Persistent Spell, for no extra cost. Using these, the artificer can pull off stuff like Persisted Divine Power (for full BAB), Persisted Cloud of Knives (all-day knife shooting 1/round), or Persisted Thunderlance (all-day access to 20ft lightsaber that runs off his Int mod rather than Str). So he gets to be a pretend-Clericzilla from 7th level onward. Artificers can also wear armor, and get lots of abilities to buff their items, so it might fit. The class is stupidly complex, though, and a metaphorical tightrope balance-wise, which is why it's just an honorable mention here...

[Tiri]

On a related note. Battle Sorcerer is never OK.

Why is it never ok? I know it's worse than a well-built Sorcerer gish, but is it really that bad?

[Forrestfire]

It's okayish, but overall, 2 extra hp per level and casting in light armor isn't worth delaying your spells by yet another level. Basically, if you're playing one, you're a full spell level behind the wizard, and still barely have any spells known. At that point, I'd rather just play a Bard and use feats to get extra spells added.

[j_spencer93]

ya making my own armor fits better and is cooler. I like your martial wizard build and think my player will too

[Dusk Eclipse]

The only time Battle Sorcerer is "ok" is if you aren't using prestige classes, and even then it is iffy.

[Yogibear41]

The only time Battle Sorcerer is "ok" is if you aren't using prestige classes, and even then it is iffy.

Or when you need a higher bab for whatever reason. Battle Sorcerer 4/ Fighter 1 is probably better than Sorcerer 2/ Fighter 3 in most cases.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not really, if you multiclas or prestige class s out of Battle Sorcerer you loose all the benefit (higher BAB) and still keep the negatives (less spells per day/known)

[j_spencer93]

ya i am not one for saying something is bad but battle sorcerer is hard to validate

[DMVerdandi]

Wizard is great.
Take the martial wizard ACF, Spontaneous Divination, Domain wizard, and Eidetic Spellcaster ACF's.
Get the martial feats you need with your bonuses.

Also, Pick up the heroism spell, The Arcane Disciple Feat for war domain (for divine power)
And pick up the Metamagic feats, extend spell, persistent spell.

MY advice as far as classes go, is not to actually gish fully, but simply to use divine power to get your base attack bonus maxed out. Instead, Play the wizard straight, and take casting PRCs. War-weaver, and incantatrix are fantastic choices. You will need to pick up iron will as a feat, so just do that at level 1 to get it out of the way.

With Wizard 5/War weaver 5/Incantatrix 10
Not only will you be able to buff and persist spells for yourself for relatively no cost at all, you can do it for your party as well for free, essentially.


So, it would play like a wizard taking a spell, throwing it into his weave in the morning, after persisting it. Everyone get's the persisted buff. Keep divine power on all day, Maybe greater magic weapon, Mage armor, and perhaps a stat boosting spell that hit's multiple stats.

Then persist the Heroism spells that will get you the fighter feats that you need (One of the best feats to persist from heroism are TOB feats, which get you Maneuvers).


THEN, you use your weapon spells.
Furthermore, if you want to pick up the ability to cast your blasting spells into weapons as a strike, Pick up Smiting Spell.

and that is how you play as Negi Springfield in DND.

[j_spencer93]

like the idea. he specifically wants all spells based on armor and creating weapons so blasting is out of the window except for thunder lance, vile lance, etc

[LentilNinja]

I suppose the obvious answer is Soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm).


The obvious answer is really not soulknife, since that class fails to be viable

Theres a D&D 3.5 Dark Sun book out there (I believe it was referenced in the Soulbow guide on BG) which has Soulknife as a prestige class, giving its features earlier as its only a 10 level class. I think it advances casting or psionic powers, but don't hold me to that.

If you combine this with 2 levels in Chameleon and use the floating feat to keep changing for the Soulknife based feats in one of the Dragon Magazines, you can keep changing what kind of soul weapon you create. Saves you having to fill all your feat slots.

But thats just another idea. I know Soulknife isn't the kind of class OP is looking for, but in case this knowledge sways that opinion then its there. :smallcool:

[DMVerdandi]

like the idea. he specifically wants all spells based on armor and creating weapons so blasting is out of the window except for thunder lance, vile lance, etc

Still works perfect.
With the build I posted above, since your buffs are not being cast over and over again for either yourself or your allies, You can get away with preparing 5 spells or so, out of the usual 10-50 slots that you have over the life of your wizard. More than enough for all the weapons spells you want.

[j_spencer93]

So using persist spell my weapons that vanish after several rounds would instead stay for a day right?

[Forrestfire]

Yes, that is correct. They'd last for 24 hours, and in some cases might need to be redirected occasionally to bring them with you (although, as the DM, I'd imagine you'd handwave that and let someone's floating sword follow them around like an adorable bladed puppy).

[j_spencer93]

idk if a adorable puppy is what came to mind lol but ya. Exactly what i was thinking. My player is creating this build as a back up but i am a little curious if it actually has playbility

[Forrestfire]

Yeah, it does. Mainly because persisting most of these spells gives you basically free attacks. I'm assuming here that the build is for a character higher than level 1, because otherwise you don't actually get to Persist things until you're level 3 (or if flaws are in play, you're good at level 1, because of Extra Turning). I'm also assuming that you're being nice and letting the cleric use his casting stat for the spells that normally run off Int (for wizards) or Cha (for sorcerers), since normally clerics can't get them so they didn't write it in.

At level 4 (3rd-level cleric casting. Actually, it could be shuffled so that the Wizard level is taken at level 6, when Customize Domain is taken, and then this is available at level 3. That's probably better.), you learn Cloud of Knives, which is a free action attack at range, once per round, all day when persisted. No action requirements necessary, just useful damage. Especially nice if the cleric has Knowledge Devotion, which he could be a Cloistered Cleric to get for free by swapping his knowledge domain out.

At level 6 (5th-level cleric casting), the cleric takes Customize Domain, and unlocks Steeldance, which is two free attacks per round, this time against any adjacent enemies. While 1d4+wis mod damage isn't amazing, it's very nice just to have, especially when it doesn't cost any actions to actually use (and it uses CL as its BAB, so they'll be likely to hit).

At level 8 (7th-level cleric casting), the customized Destruction spell unlocked is Thunderlance, which is just a pile of awesome. Base 3d6, hits anything within 20 feet, runs off casting stat instead of strength, and can be two-handed for extra damage. It's also a weapon, so the cleric could hit it with a casting of Greater Magic Weapon for more bonuses. If I were playing this character, I'd likely try my best to get Extra Turning, a Nightstick, and a Reliquary Holy Symbol, so that the weapon-summoning cleric can have his lightsaber and a pair of knives flying around with Steeldance.

It's around this point, I feel, that the build is "complete." It's viable from level 1 (with Flaws in play) or level 3 (without), but level 8 is where the build really comes into its own. The later spells I put on the customized Destruction list are mostly neat tricks to use actions in combat with, since overall, it's likely that persisting Steeldance, Divine Power, and/or Thunderlance (depending on amount of turn attempts available) will be enough to keep the cleric doing nice damage in combat for a long time. At level 18, when Lash of Force is unlocked, that'd be another good spell to persist.

In addition, the build is wide-open, prestige class and feat-wise, outside the stuff to get it started. You want a level of wizard to get the spell list, and then cleric casting. Could go into some of the full BAB classes, or use Cloistered Cleric and focus on knowledge devotion, or various other things.

[meemaas]

This is pf, and not completely available for free yet. But the third party spheres of power book has a class called the armorist. It's a half caster kinda class whose class features center around creating weapons and armor at will. Including more powerful options bonded solely to the armorist.

At the very least felt like I ought to mention it. Wouldn't be too hard to backport it to 3.5 if you picked up the material.

[j_spencer93]

we us PF, and ForestFire thanks for the ideas. Thinking cleric/wizard idea or whatever is exactly why he is looking for, and that cloud of knives idea...now that sounds very interesting and something he would love to be able to do. However i need to look into that Armorist class too, it sounds like what we originally intended.