Shuenja + Wu Jen

[j_spencer93]

Well are apparently creating theoretically builds tonight and am wondering how this build would stack up as a master of weather and elements? Would it fullfill its roll as intended? Shuenja + Wu Jen then taking Mystic Theurge to boost both of their spell progressions to not leave out many spells?

[Sian]

likely worse than a Druid / Wizard / Arcane Hierophant / Mystic Theurge, simply due to much more support in terms of spell lists

[j_spencer93]

feel like making a combination of arguably the strongest two classes in the game and comparing it to this really isnt fair lol. Would they fullfill their rule though?

[j_spencer93]

Also a Shugenja's prohibited element, does that apply to all classes or just Shugenja?

[ben-zayb]

You're probably better off using Shugenja / Sorcerer, if only to reduce MAD. The spell list may be different, but you still get options for weather-related and "element"-related spells (albeit less of the "wood" and "metal" variety).

[j_spencer93]

lol well sticking with shugenja and wi jen, player likes the flavor of both combined. Now. does that prohibited element effect both spell classes?

[Malak'ai]

Also a Shugenja's prohibited element, does that apply to all classes or just Shugenja?

If I were DM'ing, I'd enforce it because even though it's a class mechanic it's an active one like a Paladin's code or a Druid's "not allowed to use metal armour or weapons (except with a couple of exceptions). It makes no matter to me where the spells come from, the character just can't cast spells of that certain element.

[j_spencer93]

ok me and the player actually agree with that

[Malak'ai]

ok me and the player actually agree with that

Well to me it'd be like me having a Druid, but not liking the fact that it couldn't use mithral full plate, so to get round that restriction I take a level of Fighter for no other reason than that they ARE allowed to wear metal armour.
Does this negate the Druid's class mechanic? No way! That mechanic is set in stone for that character unless they find something that states clearly that it negates it.

[BWR]

If I were DM'ing, I'd enforce it because even though it's a class mechanic it's an active one like a Paladin's code or a Druid's "not allowed to use metal armour or weapons (except with a couple of exceptions). It makes no matter to me where the spells come from, the character just can't cast spells of that certain element.

Not quite. The 3.x shugenja is based on the L5R shugenja and the elemental focus/barred element is not one of prohibition or mandate but merely training. The way spells and magic work in L5R are a bit different than d20 but roughly and inaccurately, you have 6 magnitudes of spells and (depending on edition) 5 + character levels. You can learn and cast spells of a magnitude equal to your class level. Your elemental focus (affinity) means your class counts as one level higher for that element while your opposition element (deficiency) means you count as 1 level lower. So a level 2 Kuni suhgenja counts as level 3 for earth spells but level 1 for air spells. The Isawa shugenja is special in that they have an affinity of their choice but no deficiency. You can train in various shugenja schools and gain their affinities and deficiencies, evening out or increasing/decreasing your effective level for spells.
The d20 shugenja was something of a nerf from the original, but that aside there is no hint of 'cannot learn deficient element or lose powers.'

[atemu1234]

I should point out the Shugenja still loses its abilities if it breaks that rule, but by RAW the other classes do not (the same for the Wu Jen's Taboos).

Also, I once made Wu Jen whose taboo was that whoever he met, he had to flirt with. It was fun to roleplay, until I met that water orc bouncer...

[Chronos]

One problem with any theurge build is that you'll be less a master of elements, and more a sort of "Jack of all elements". At seventh level, for instance, you'll still only have 2nd-level spells on both sides, while a single-classed wu jen would have 4th-level spells. Mystic theurge also has the problem that eventually you run out of levels, and have to go back to advancing only one class, though this is easily fixed by houserule.

[Urpriest]

This doesn't really make sense. You're combining two classes that fill a very similar fluff niche, to the extent that you don't even have the standard divine/arcane fluff distinction you would have for most theurges, since Shugenja magic is learned and spellbook-based in the same way Wu Jen magic is. So fluffwise, there's no motivation to do this. The only reason to be interested is because you think you'll get some interesting mechanical result, and I can't really think of anything. Almost anything a Shugenja can do a properly built Wu Jen can do better.

[j_spencer93]

actually we simply want to do this because they are the oriental versions of wizard/cleric per say (btw we use the rokugan books of shugenja is slightly different with alot more spells)

[Solaris]

Not quite. The 3.x shugenja is based on the L5R shugenja and the elemental focus/barred element is not one of prohibition or mandate but merely training. The way spells and magic work in L5R are a bit different than d20 but roughly and inaccurately, you have 6 magnitudes of spells and (depending on edition) 5 + character levels. You can learn and cast spells of a magnitude equal to your class level. Your elemental focus (affinity) means your class counts as one level higher for that element while your opposition element (deficiency) means you count as 1 level lower. So a level 2 Kuni suhgenja counts as level 3 for earth spells but level 1 for air spells. The Isawa shugenja is special in that they have an affinity of their choice but no deficiency. You can train in various shugenja schools and gain their affinities and deficiencies, evening out or increasing/decreasing your effective level for spells.
The d20 shugenja was something of a nerf from the original, but that aside there is no hint of 'cannot learn deficient element or lose powers.'

This.
Not even in the d20 Rokugan Campaign Setting does it state that a shugenja who multi-classes into sorcerer is restricted in the elements he can cast as a sorcerer (only in those elements he casts as a shugenja). It would then logically follow that the wu jen, whose casting is not based on the kami as the shugenja's is, is not restricted because he has no difficulty working magical energies relating to one element or another, just as he has no bonuses relating to working with one element or another.

If you're going to restrict the character's non-shugenja casting by the shugenja rules, then you need to give the character's non-shugenja casting the same benefits his shugenja casting enjoys as well.

[j_spencer93]

Then i guess ill not make it effect all. That allows him to access water spells through wu jen.

[Urpriest]

actually we simply want to do this because they are the oriental versions of wizard/cleric per say (btw we use the rokugan books of shugenja is slightly different with alot more spells)

See, that's the thing. They're only sort of the oriental versions of wizard/cleric. Really, Shugenja is the Rokugan equivalent of a Wizard (that happens to use Divine, Spontaneous, Cha-based magic), while Wu Jen is the non-Rokugan oriental Wizard. But they're both Wizards, fluffwise.

[j_spencer93]

ya i understand that and i understand that this is not optimal at all actually. However it is what my player wants

[Urpriest]

ya i understand that and i understand that this is not optimal at all actually. However it is what my player wants

No, you misunderstand. I'm trying to argue that this isn't actually what your player wants, that if you talk to your player and figure out what sort of misconceptions are driving them to ask for this class combination you'll be able to figure out what they actually want. As-is, I'm guessing they're misunderstanding something about the Shugenja fluff, and that if they understood it they'd want something else.

[j_spencer93]

no they understand, a mage that connects to spirits by using the kami and ofuda (we use rokugan changing fluff slightly).

[j_spencer93]

if their was another way to progress both at once we would be happy but think theurge the only one that does that.

[Urpriest]

Ok, to give some actual advice:

If you're using Rokugan anyway, and the DM is willing to rule that Trackless Step from Bamboo Spirit Folk counts as the "Trackless step class feature" for the purposes of qualifying for Arcane Hierophant, then you can take that instead of Mystic Theurge (or rather, take that, then at high levels cap things off with Mystic Theurge).

[BWR]

Nitpick:
Rokugani shugenja are priests in every respect, not wizards. Practitioners of old-school Isawa blood magic, modern blood magic, khadi stuff, ratling Nametakers, etc.; these are closer to wizards. Mechnically, the d20 shugenja works a bit differently than the R&K. R&K shuggies learn spells (prayers to elemental spirits, occasionally gods or similar powerful beings) sort of like a wizard in that they generally need a written text and there is no mechanical limit to how many spells a shugenja can know. Once you know the spell you can freely cast it so long as you have spell slots left. In d20 terms you learn spells sort of like a wizard (or better yet, an Archivist), you cast them spontaneously and if you spend enough experience you don't even need your focus/holy symbol/spellbook (ofuda).

Urpriest's point, if I may venture to put words in his mouth, is this:
Shugenja fluff: communicate with nature spirits to invoke effects.
Wu jen fluff: communicate with nature spirits to invoke effects.

Unless you determine that there are two seperate sets of nature spirits, you basically have two classes that invoke the same set of nature spirits in mechanically slightly different ways. It would be more like trying to multiclass cleric and cloistered cleric of the same god than going sorcerer/wizard. As long as you are aware of this and are fine with it (or have determined there are different types of spirits), no problem.

[j_spencer93]

thank you actually. that is another dual one that i was looking for.

[Sian]

Wu Jen + either Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine) or Shaman (Oriental Adventures) might be prettier they'll peddle with slightly more different aspects of the spirits

[j_spencer93]

you know those two i am willing to consider. he is liking the whole kami additional flavor of rokugan so those could be more interesting for him then wu jen. Now another question, would adding wu jen unique spells to shuenja be a problem?

[j_spencer93]

Oops sorry BWR i missed your response. Ya i he really likes the shugenja more then wu jen now after reading Rokugans slightly different fluff. he likes the ofuda alot and after finding different talisman feats for them he now is envisioning a miroku (inuyasha?) like monk based on spirit kami, able to use magical talisma's. this class might take a turn away from wu jen and instead try to find a way to empower his shugenja and increase its spiritual themes more.

[DMVerdandi]

I would just pick up an archivist and learn shugenja spells.
Ends up with the same flavor and nearly similar mechanics, if not simply more polished.

[j_spencer93]

True but he wants Shugenja. Specifically shugenja and now maybe dropping wu jen and focusing on increasing his shugenja side.

[Chronos]

That's probably a good idea. For casters in 3.5, it's almost always to pick a class, any class, and focus on it than it is to try to combine multiple classes.

[j_spencer93]

Ya lol now just to find PRCs that share the same feel and also grant good features or bonuses to his Shugenja.

[Amphetryon]

Ya lol now just to find PRCs that share the same feel and also grant good features or bonuses to his Shugenja.

There's a Shugenja handbook kicking around on minmaxboards and, possibly, the previous editions section of the WotC forums. It may be helpful.

[j_spencer93]

I have it. I also am going through the Rokugan books. Found one PRC that fits perfectly, actually is created for it, however it is very strange in progressing spells.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I assume you mean the Eunuch Warlock. That was updated in Dragon Magazine to advance 9/10ths, among other changes. Technically more powerful, but not as interesting.

[Urpriest]

I assume you mean the Eunuch Warlock. That was updated in Dragon Magazine to advance 9/10ths, among other changes. Technically more powerful, but not as interesting.

I'm assuming that's not what they mean, since it's not from the Rokugan books.

[BWR]

I have it. I also am going through the Rokugan books. Found one PRC that fits perfectly, actually is created for it, however it is very strange in progressing spells.

Let me guess: the Elemental Guardsman?

[Bloody Peasant!]

You considered Shaman from oriental adventures on the divine side instead? It's probably actually better than Wu Jen in most areas and certainly much better than Shugenja at just about everything.

Though I do like the combo. Wujenshugenja. It's got a nice ring to it. Woo-jen-shoo-gen-jah.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm assuming that's not what they mean, since it's not from the Rokugan books.

I read his post and focused on the "very strange in progressing spells" part.

[j_spencer93]

I do not remember the name sorry. But i will look both of those classes up to see if they were it.