Magic of Incarnum: What do you love and/or hate about it?

[Svata]

Finally managed to get a copy, and it only ran me about $20 (including shipping). In celebration of this event, I want to know: What do I have to look forward to on Monday, and what does everyone like or dislike about it. Include you favorite and/or least favorite things about it!


(also, if anyone knows where I can get a copy of the Draconomicon on the cheap, that'd be wonderful.)

[KillianHawkeye]

I really like it.

It's pretty well balanced (except the Soulborn class, which is crap) but it has a really different feel from other forms of magic. The whole ability to reassign your essentia every round lets you sorta recalibrate your effects more or less at will. The new races in the book aren't that special except for the one guys with the spines on their arms and legs (I forget their name, but there's just something about them that screams awesomeness to me). Beyond that, there's just a pretty interesting list of abilities that you can gain using the souldmelds and chakra binds. If you're into being Evil, necrocarnum zombies are actually kinda decent and probably the lowest level way to get permanent undead meat shields. I also think it's interesting how a lot of Incarnate soulmelds grant different effects depending on your alignment, although I suppose that's not totally unprecedented.

The one major downside to the book, I'd say, is that (like Tome of Battle) I really had to read it twice all the way through before I could completely wrap my head around it because of how it's just actually something new.

[Heliomance]

Biggest downside: Poor editing, and not thinking through how everything works. Shape Soulmeld and Open X Chakra, for example - if you take those feats, do you still have to use up a meld slot or bind to use their benefit? If so, what happens if you take them as a non-meldshaper? Also, what happens if you take one of the Incarnate's alignment-dependent soulmelds using Shape Soulmeld, and your alignment is one of the extremes? Do you get two benefits from it? It's not at all clear, and there's various other problems like that. Also, the Incarnum feats shouldn't lock your essentia away for 24 hours - it makes them suck. The whole point of the system is that you can move your essentia around on the fly.

But in general, it's a very fun system once you get your head round it.

[Equilibria]

Magic of incarnum is a fun little subsystem that can make some very interesting builds.
only... the fluff is terrible. All that blue starts to hurt my eyes so i refluffed it as kind of a witchblade look... worked wonders.

Also.. im not sure this is permitted on the forums... but i have a lot of 3.5 books for sale, including the dragonomicon.

Only im in denmark so the shipping costs might be kinda steep.

Let me know if you're interested.

[atemu1234]

Can't help with buying or selling.

However, I do enjoy MoI. I generally use it for VoP things. Totemist is my favorite, usually as a refluffed sort of druid.

[Fallenreality]

From my experience with Incarnum (Mainly the DSP Pathfinder version, Akashic Mysteries) It's really useful in gestalt.

It provides an excellent passive half to any build, which is often difficult to find. It can also be reflavored to match anything from psionics to manifesting your ki.

Also fairly good in non-gestalt, although from what I've heard about the 3.5 version, there are some rules that could REALLY use clarification.

[Telonius]

Bad points:
It suffers from "Let's put the most important tables in the least logical places" syndrome.
Bad editing generally.
Kind of hard to figure out how it works the first time you read it.
Soulborn is very much underwhelming.
Undead Meldshaper should really, really have an extra clause allowing a stat other than Con (I'd go with Charisma) to count for Incarnum prerequisites.

Kinda meh points:
Prestige classes are kind of so-so.
You can look forward to lots of rules debates if your Warlock's player ever sees the words "Strongheart Vest" and "Hellfire" in the same sentence.
Lots of nice feats, but it always seems like I never have room in a build to actually use them.
Chakra fluff; some people love it, some people hate it. It is what it is.

Good points:
Very, very dippable.
Once you understand the mechanic, it can result in some extremely versatile characters.
Totemist is awesome.
You will learn about 10 new synonyms for "blue."

[Svata]

So its like a 64 pack of Crayolas, except they're all just a slightly different shade of blue? Awesome.

[Chronos]

There's a lot of power in it, often in rather unconventional forms, both of which appeal to my optimizer side. But that power is very front-loaded, and what scaling there is mostly depends on character level, not class level, so the best incarnum-using builds tend to be those that only have small dips in the incarnum classes (usually either Incarnate 1 or Totemist 2). And I absolutely hate the fluff, since it doesn't really seem to correspond to anything from legend or fiction.

The classes in it also each have their own problems. Incarnate can get all sorts of passive buffs, but there's very little for them to actually do: Every round, you'll basically either attack with dissolving spittle, or attack with your incarnate weapon. Totemist can be fun, but most of their melds do the same thing, give you natural weapons, and most of them don't work properly with other natural weapons, so there's very rarely any mechanical reason to use any of them other than Girallon Arms (if you want melee) or Manticore Belt (if you want ranged). And Soulborn, well, doesn't get much of anything.

Personally, I think that Magic of Incarnum was a noble experiment, and I applaud them for thinking outside of the Vancian spell box, but the experiment was a failure. If you want a fun and flavorful alternate magic system, go with Tome of Magic, instead. It's only a third of a book, but that third of a book is much better, across the board, than MoI is.

[AmberVael]

My major criticisms of Incarnum are as follows:

1) The fluff. Shaping raw soul stuff into magic items? Wtf? Where did this even come from? Where's the logic in it? And why is it all so adamantly blue. There are no answers. Incarnum is the highest on my 'refluff this' list, and I've come up with so many explanations of it that I like more.

2) It conflicts with magic items. Just... why is this necessary. From a fluff perspective (ugh why am I having to think about this book's fluff) I can kinda see how it makes sense, but mechanically its just so annoying and pointless. Rather than helping balance it hurts it, making it harder and harder for a meldshaper to use their wealth the more they level up. By the end you have a ton of money and a ton of soulmelds competing for space, and the same amount of space to share between them.

3) There is so little of incarnum that is active. Which is to say, the majority of Incarnum's features are passive bonuses, meaning that the actions you take are generally just standard ones. There are less options to pick from, and so while a meldshaper has a good amount of character build options to them, in play they can feel rather one note compared to classes with more active powers such as spellcasters, initiators, invokers... even binders tend to have more.


I'd normally say something about confusing editing and rules but I think everyone else has quite adequately covered that topic.

[Flickerdart]

Incarnum is very annoying to actually get your head around, and the things you need to look up are all in different places. Better buy a couple of bookmarks. The characters don't really have a niche - Totemists do well as frontliners and Soulborns make great corpses but other than that they all do a little bit of everything.

Once you figure it out though, it's a fantastic system that, like much of late-run 3.5, is very easy to bolt on to existing characters. Take one level of Incarnate? You can shape any of their melds (but not bind to chakras, which is the main way they scale, the other being essentia investment). You don't even need to commit any levels, since a lot of the stuff can be picked up through feats.

[The Viscount]

I like Incarnum's different magic system. It is a very new take on things and for the most part it works. I really like that (with few exceptions) melds function all day and don't have limits on how often you can use them. I like that between the two real users of Incarnum (soulborn doesn't count since its barely a meldshaper) there's no clear choice; Incarnate and Totemist are on roughly equal power levels though they focus on different things. I like the modular ability of the essentia, allowing you to shift your power and not feel locked in (except for feats).

I don't like the fact that melds cannot occupy the same spot as an item unless you shell out extra, which means money has to be spent on wands. I don't like that melds are all listed together, instead of being separated by which class has access to them. It makes reading through melds difficult the first time. I also think the the essentia cap is too low and restricted.

[Svata]

That next to last bit sounds annoying, and seems to be a common complaint, as does bad editing in general.

[Flickerdart]

I also think the the essentia cap is too low and restricted.
It works out pretty well, from the numbers people have run on how well Incarnum competes in various niches like damage-dealing or skill use.

[Ssalarn]

I like that it generally works within the same system as other classes instead of circumventing it like traditional spells (for example, giving meaningful boosts to relevant skills instead of a spell that just waives the need for the skill).

I like that it's balanced to a lower threshold / higher endurance system, so that you get to be a spellcaster who follows the same general performance dynamic as a martial character, without the novas or resource management stress.

I like that it's flexible and lets you adjust your resources between offense, defense, or utility from round to round.

I like that once you've parsed out all the rules, it's actually a very simple and intuitive system to play.

I like that it plays well with other classes, making it great for multi-classing, gestalt, or just dipping into with feats.

I don't like that your class abilities take up your magic item slots (that's why I threw that whole idea out when I wrote Akashic Mysteries for Dreamscarred Press).

I don't like that the bulk of its flavor is the color blue.

I don't like the Soulborn.


It works out pretty well, from the numbers people have run on how well Incarnum competes in various niches like damage-dealing or skill use.

Yeah, the scaling seems low, but it's actually right on for putting out the appropriate numbers at the appropriate levels. It's really a very well-balanced skeleton.

[Chronos]

The actual numbers for meldshaper skill use are much lower than what you're thinking about. When you see arguments like "An incarnate is as good as a rogue at skills", they usually start by picking some skill to compare, and then assuming that you're maxing out that skill cross-class in addition to the soulmeld bonuses. Which really isn't viable, on a class with only 2 skill points per level, no Int synergy, and a short class skill list.

Of course, that isn't particularly relevant, because the proper comparison isn't (say) a rogue 8 vs. an incarnate 8. It's comparing either of those to a rogue 7/incarnate 1, which will blow both out of the water. Others have praised the system for being dippable, but it's too dippable. There's very little reason to stay in Incarnate past level 1, or Totemist past 2.

[Red Fel]

I'm going to agree with a lot of what's been said. It's incredibly dippable, adds a nice dash of versatility to any build, comfortably supplements any role, and offers a lot of fun and useful abilities. It also suffers from poor editing and questionable fluff, as well as the unfortunate side-effect of conflicting with magic items.

It also offers the Ironsoul Forgemaster. Have you seen my sig? Check my sig. Fun times.

Like many expansion systems that came out around the end of 3.5 (see also Tome of Battle) it gave us some really rich new features, a couple of blah pieces, a few broken pieces (for both definitions of broken), and something for the more core-only DMs to complain about. On the whole, though, I like it.

One thing you really have to keep in mind, though, is to read it carefully. A lot of the most important rules are buried in the middle of paragraphs on seemingly random pages (see poor editing, above), and it can be difficult to parse on the first (or second, or third) read-through what your limitations are in terms of essentia pool, essentia investment, and so forth.

And nobody likes the Soulborn. If it made sense, I would say "Like the Paladin, but worse," but such things border on the incomprehensible. (At least Paladins have ACFs, though...)

[Threadnaught]

Got the book just before the new year and I don't understand all the issues with the presentation of the Soul Melds, they look like they're set out just like Spells.
The inability to use Soul Melds and Magic Items on the same slots is also okay with me, considering how the Soul Melds mimic a large number of Magic Items for free anyhow. Also it gives an actual Class that can use Vow of Poverty without penalty, outside of the PHB.

The Totemist looks pretty good, I'm building a Warforged name 5-H-4-P-3 just in case I ever get to use him her it.

[Vhaidara]

Well, most of what's been said if entirely accurate, and, as you can probably guess from my avatar, I'm a fan.

Now, one of the best things you can do is refluff. I didn't do this for my avatar, but i've wanted to run a Warforged Totemist who was a scientist. He had experimented with his own body, and had dozens of modifications. However, he could only have so many active at once (Melds shaped) they conflicted for locations on his body (magic item exclusivity), he could only focus on a given number (bound), and only had a limited amount of power to bring them above their base power levels (essentia).

Suddenly, Manticore Belt becomes a self-sustaining javelin launcher. Flight becomes a jetpack. Claws become Wolverine claws. So on and so forth. Suddenly the kind of crappy fluff (which I've still found use for) becomes AMAZING (http://youtu.be/mPJgqd1B_ns?t=2m25s)

[Flickerdart]

There's very little reason to stay in Incarnate past level 1, or Totemist past 2.
Unless you want to get chakras, or extra melds shaped, or more essentia. So yes, if you don't want to get all the cool Incarnum stuff, you don't need to take more levels in Incarnum classes.

[Vhaidara]

There's very little reason to stay in Incarnate past level 1, or Totemist past 2.

Yeah, that's just wrong. Totemist 20 is awesome. My avatar was going to go it, and things only got better when I got to become Gestalt Totemist//Soulborn (it doesn't add much, but I was already on the edge of power, so getting less out of my gestalt doesn't really bother me)

[Troacctid]

Yeah, Incarnates scale just fine past the first couple levels. Unlocking new chakra binds is great, you can always use more essentia, and there are some really strong soulmelds that are dependent on your meldshaper level (notably Vitality Belt and Necrocarnum Circlet). They don't scale as well as spellcasters, but that's what Soulcaster and Sapphire Hierarch are for.

[Amphetryon]

I really like it.

It's pretty well balanced (except the Soulborn class, which is crap) but it has a really different feel from other forms of magic. The whole ability to reassign your essentia every round lets you sorta recalibrate your effects more or less at will. The new races in the book aren't that special except for the one guys with the spines on their arms and legs (I forget their name, but there's just something about them that screams awesomeness to me). Beyond that, there's just a pretty interesting list of abilities that you can gain using the souldmelds and chakra binds. If you're into being Evil, necrocarnum zombies are actually kinda decent and probably the lowest level way to get permanent undead meat shields. I also think it's interesting how a lot of Incarnate soulmelds grant different effects depending on your alignment, although I suppose that's not totally unprecedented.

The one major downside to the book, I'd say, is that (like Tome of Battle) I really had to read it twice all the way through before I could completely wrap my head around it because of how it's just actually something new.

I'm going to sound even more obtuse than usual here, but could someone please cite the rules for what I've bolded, above? I mean, where it explicitly says this is allowed, rather than a lack of restriction on it? I ask, because I've seen DMs who ruled that the way Incarnum gets invested in the various Feats (locked in for 24 hours) should be read as instructive as to how it works for Class features, barring verbiage to the contrary.

[torrasque666]

I'm going to sound even more obtuse than usual here, but could someone please cite the rules for what I've bolded, above? I mean, where it explicitly says this is allowed, rather than a lack of restriction on it? I ask, because I've seen DMs who ruled that the way Incarnum gets invested in the various Feats (locked in for 24 hours) should be read as instructive as to how it works for Class features, barring verbiage to the contrary.
Here is the relevant information.

As a swift action on your turn, you can invest essentia into
any number of soulmelds that you have shaped. It remains
invested in those soulmelds until you reallocate your essentia
investment on a later turn

[AmberVael]

Its also specified that you can reallocate within the Meldshaping ability of all the meldshaper classes.

[Amphetryon]

Here is the relevant information.

Much obliged, thanks.

[Dgrin]

I'm going to sound even more obtuse than usual here, but could someone please cite the rules for what I've bolded, above? I mean, where it explicitly says this is allowed, rather than a lack of restriction on it? I ask, because I've seen DMs who ruled that the way Incarnum gets invested in the various Feats (locked in for 24 hours) should be read as instructive as to how it works for Class features, barring verbiage to the contrary.

Sure, here it is:


As a swift action on your turn, you can invest essentia into any number of soulmelds that you have shaped. It remains invested in those soulmelds until you reallocate your essentia
investment on a later turn. Each soulmeld has a maximum essentia capacity based on the character’s level. Invested essentia applies to a both the soulmeld and its chakra bind effects, if appropriate.
In addition to soulmelds, you might have the ability to invest essentia into other receptacles, such as class and race abilities (a duskling’s speed bonus or an incandescent champion’s incandescent strike, for example) as well as certain spells and magic items. These receptacles are treated as soulmelds for the purpose of investing essentia into them, with one notable exception: Several feats described in Chapter 3 allow you to invest essentia into them. It is a particular quality of these feats that you must invest essentia into them at the start of the day, and that essentia remains invested in those feats for the entire day

EDIT: Damn, first time I've been swordsaged

[Red Fel]

Much obliged, thanks.

I don't think anyone could call you obtuse for missing it, though. As has been mentioned, the editing is awful, and when there are a dozen things in which you can invest essentia (feats, soulmelds, class features, equipment) and different rules for all of them...

Yeah. I have to keep re-reading the thing, and I'm still picking up stuff I missed.

[Troacctid]

I don't think anyone could call you obtuse for missing it, though. As has been mentioned, the editing is awful, and when there are a dozen things in which you can invest essentia (feats, soulmelds, class features, equipment) and different rules for all of them...

Yeah. I have to keep re-reading the thing, and I'm still picking up stuff I missed.

Same here. For example, I only recently found out that all soulmelds that affect anyone other than yourself are subject to spell resistance.

[Svata]

Thanks guys, you've been incredibly helpful. I'm really looking corward to getting the book, even with its poor editing and one nigh-useless class. Hey, its a better ratio of good classes:bad classes than ToM, which I still liked a lot.

[Flickerdart]

Hey, its a better ratio of good classes:bad classes than ToM, which I still liked a lot.
Yo, don't knock Shadowcasters. Black Labyrinth is the coolest thing WotC's ever put out.

[Svata]

Hey, I never said shadowcasters weren't cool I only meant they weren't effective. But they're really cool.

[Vhaidara]

Hey, I never said shadowcasters weren't cool I only meant they weren't effective. But they're really cool.

Also, I think the general consensus is that everything from ToM was cool. It's just that Binder was the only thing that was effective.

[Flickerdart]

Hey, I never said shadowcasters weren't cool I only meant they weren't effective. But they're really cool.
Shadowcasters are a solid T4 that have no trouble with the tail 2/3rds of the game.

[Warlocknthewind]

Magic of Incarnum is the most perfect example of blending fluff and mechanics I know. Incarnum provides a passive set of abilities that do not exhaust. Psionics, the other side of the coin, is full of effective balanced abilities that run out after an extent.

When I don't run Eberron , I run a world without vancian casters. Psionics, ToM, and Incarnum. Incarnum & Races of the Dragons species ran by the Draconic Pantheon, and the fluff is a perfect mesh.

Also, I love Blue, so I guess that's bias.I'll consent to the bad editing.

[Harrow]

A lot's already been said, but I really like incarnum and there's a lot going on with it, so I'll try to add a couple things where I can. It's not the easiest system to wrap your head around, so if anyone who uses it more often than I've been able to sees some sort of discrepancy, please feel free to correct me

There was a Mind's Eye article that added a psionic/incarnum dual progression prestige class and a few psionic-themed soulmelds. Of note are the Astral Vambraces, DR/magic 2, +2 for every point of essentia invested

Very few abilities key off of your meldshaper level. IIRC, the maximum level of Necrocarnum Zombie you can raise and control is based off of it, which is the only important effect I know.

Share Soulmeld works with Familiars, Animal Companions, and Special Mounts, but NOT the Soulspark familiar. Grab a level in either Wizard or Druid if you want to use it. Alternatively, many DMs are willing to houserule in the Soulspark Familiar

The Soulborn is terrible because it doesn't get to shape or bind very many melds and has a terribly slow essentia progression. However, this doesn't mean that their soulmelds are necessarily bad. Thunderstep Boots, for example, can be very nice.


In general, Incarnates are invincible harbingers of death at low levels, but don't scale as fast as other classes or monsters and ultimately lose their spotlight, though are still relevant with planning. Totemists I don't know as much about, but as long as you're looking for "I walk up and kill it" builds, they seem to scale well enough as multi-attack melee murder machines

[Psyren]

Yo, don't knock Shadowcasters. Black Labyrinth is the coolest thing WotC's ever put out.

Ugh, no. If allies only had to save once with your bonus I might agree, but using this is just asking to get books thrown at you from all sides. And the first three effects penalize everyone, including you, allies, pets etc., with no save.


Shadowcasters are a solid T4 that have no trouble with the tail 2/3rds of the game.

They get enough ammo later on, but having to pick everything in a Path does suck all the way up, as do Metashadow feats being 1/day. And why they hell don't they get Shadow Conjuration and Shades?

[Flickerdart]

Ugh, no. If allies only had to save once with your bonus I might agree, but using this is just asking to get books thrown at you from all sides. And the first three effects penalize everyone, including you, allies, pets etc., with no save.
If you and your allies are in the area of your Black Labyrinth, you're doing things wrong. Drop it on cities you don't like and then 'port out with your party and leave everyone else trapped and confused. Maybe leave a few disposable monsters in there to liven things up a bit, ideally ones with multi-target no-roll SLAs like Magic Missile that don't care about the effects of the Labyrinth.

[Psyren]

If you and your allies are in the area of your Black Labyrinth, you're doing things wrong.

It's a mile radius spread - and yes the range is "long" but that doesn't get you anywhere near the 5280ft. you need to be out of dodge. If you leave, they can just dispel or disjoin it before you come back and you've wasted a 9th-level mystery.

[Flickerdart]

It's a mile radius spread - and yes the range is "long" but that doesn't get you anywhere near the 5280ft. you need to be out of dodge. If you leave, they can just dispel or disjoin it before you come back and you've wasted a 9th-level mystery.
And if you stick around, you're preventing it from being disjoined how?

[Svata]

Uh, Don't effects not stretch beyond their range? It'll end up centered on you no matter where you put it.

[danzibr]

What to love about it? Totemist. And it's very dip-friendly. Incarnate is good. You get to shape all your stuff at first level. There's lots to like, but most of all... Totemist.

What to hate about it? Ambiguity of certain abilities and the like.

[Psyren]

And if you stick around, you're preventing it from being disjoined how?

You're not, you're taking advantage of it by having your party members - who I presume are more effective than the summoned help, right? - attack while it's up. If everyone just retreats then the baddies are under no pressure while getting rid of it, and summons are usually much weaker than PCs so that is also no pressure. They can try their luck with Dispel Magic instead of feeling the need to blow GDM or MD to get it gone right now.

[ZamielVanWeber]

What I love: the color blue (I really do) how Incarnate feels so flexible and Totemist is the combat monster I have dreamed of without having to be a druid (and skills/flexibility to boot)

What I hate: Negotiating items and binds (totemist is a little nicer about this), the wonky editing (I won't say bad because I have Complete Psionic's and the KoK Player's Guide and OH BOY THAT EDITING), how keeping track of your constantly changing bonuses can be a pain (My BF ended up using an excel spreadsheet), and how the soulborn went with the formulaic "bigger chassis for later magic" without realizing incarnum's power is decently front loaded (it scales decently, but you get a lot early on).

[Flickerdart]

You're not, you're taking advantage of it by having your party members - who I presume are more effective than the summoned help, right? - attack while it's up. If everyone just retreats then the baddies are under no pressure while getting rid of it, and summons are usually much weaker than PCs so that is also no pressure. They can try their luck with Dispel Magic instead of feeling the need to blow GDM or MD to get it gone right now.
Right but if the baddies are wielding Disjunction then you just traded a standard action for a standard action and haven't bought anybody any time to do anything. If they're using Dispel Magic, then you've actually created a delaying tactic, especially since it's never going to work (CL17 +4 for the whole "magic vs mystery" thing + 10 = 31, impossible to hit with 1d20+10).

[Psyren]

Right but if the baddies are wielding Disjunction then you just traded a standard action for a standard action and haven't bought anybody any time to do anything. If they're using Dispel Magic, then you've actually created a delaying tactic, especially since it's never going to work (CL17 +4 for the whole "magic vs mystery" thing + 10 = 31, impossible to hit with 1d20+10).

+anything to dispel checks puts it back in reach, or they can simply go inside and wait it out since, again, you left. Or they can use Shadows Fade instead - a 4th level mystery from them vs. a 9th from you.

Point is there's no reason for them to run around crashing into walls or... whatever it is you're trying to accomplish with this boondoggle if you simply quit the field, and if you stick around you're almost as impeded as they are.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't like that the bulk of its flavor is the color blue.

What does blue taste like? :smalltongue:


My major criticisms of Incarnum are as follows:

1) The fluff. Shaping raw soul stuff into magic items? Wtf? Where did this even come from? Where's the logic in it? And why is it all so adamantly blue. There are no answers. Incarnum is the highest on my 'refluff this' list, and I've come up with so many explanations of it that I like more.

<_<

>_>

Best way to fluff Incarnum:
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/megaman/images/a/a6/MM10-MegaMan.png/revision/latest?cb=20100720141331
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/megaman/images/4/42/MegamanMHX.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100616040812
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/megaman/images/2/23/MMBN4MegaMan.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100416010656

[Flickerdart]

or they can simply go inside and wait it out since, again, you left.
Delaying tactic great success.

[infomatic]

how keeping track of your constantly changing bonuses can be a pain

Oh, THIS. The I-can-change-up-my-powers-on-the-fly sounds great, but it's so easy to miss out on something — saves, AC, HP, attack bonuses (tracked differently for ranged or melee), strength checks (for trips, etc.) will be constantly in flux. It's even worse if you're a DM — your players' sheets can be completely different from one round to the next.

And, yes, the organization of the book is terrible.

[Ethelesin]

I personally kinda like the fluff, pulling out your own soul and making stuff with it seems neat. My big problem is that i find the book/crunch rather confusing and seemingly lack the creativity to make it work.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I personally kinda like the fluff, pulling out your own soul and making stuff with it seems neat. My big problem is that i find the book/crunch rather confusing and seemingly lack the creativity to make it work.

Uh, you don't use your own soul. You pull this blue stuff from a place in the Astral Sea that makes souls.

[Ethelesin]

Uh, you don't use your own soul. You pull this blue stuff from a place in the Astral Sea that makes souls.

Whelp, guess there was one thing i got wrong there. Still pretty much a case of "same-same" no?

[Psyren]

Delaying tactic great success.

Delayed yourself too. Yay?

[Flickerdart]

Delayed yourself too. Yay?
No, you teleported out to take care of business while your opposition is sitting indoors waiting for your labyrinth to go away.

[Jigawatts]

Like: Its a pretty cool system overall.

Dislike: Both the fluff (already discussed at length by others), and the gamey naming schemes. I much prefer the Dreamscarred style of naming things, Vizier, Guru, and Daevic are far better names than Soulborn, Incarnate, and Totemist, not to mention veils instead of soulmelds, essence instead of essentia, etc. They have done well in their other products too, Warlord instead of Warblade, Stalker instead of Swordsage, I wish they had renamed the Soulknife why they were at it, but I understand why they didn't. I just hate gamey names, and WotC has used a lot of them. I also like that Sslarn changed the fluff to reflect some real world mythology for the Dreamscarred version.

[Psyren]

No, you teleported out to take care of business while your opposition is sitting indoors waiting for your labyrinth to go away.

If you had other business, what were you doing fighting and labyrinthing in the first place? Isn't your business there?

These attempts to rationalize an awful teamscrewing 9th are just getting more laughable.

(Also, how is a Shadowcaster teleporting anywhere? Ebon Roads, that thing that puts you miles off target?)

[Chronos]

I thought Black Maze prevented teleportation, too? And if it doesn't, then why aren't your enemies just teleporting out to chase you?

[Flickerdart]

If you had other business, what were you doing fighting and labyrinthing in the first place? Isn't your business there?
Like it's so far-fetched for high-level characters to start out on one side of the world and have urgent business elsewhere.


I thought Black Maze prevented teleportation, too? And if it doesn't, then why aren't your enemies just teleporting out to chase you?
That's one of the things that doesn't affect the caster.

[Psyren]

Like it's so far-fetched for high-level characters to start out on one side of the world and have urgent business elsewhere.

If it's urgent you should be there to begin with, and you certainly wouldn't want to end up miles away from it trying to get there either.



That's one of the things that doesn't affect the caster.

All they need to leave the area and chase you is a will save - and there are fewer ways to pump save DCs for mysteries even before you factor in Shadowcaster MAD.