precocious apprentice questions

[j_spencer93]

could you choose this feats twice?

[Darrin]

could you choose this feats twice?

No. If a feat can be taken more than once, the text will say so.

(Just taking it once is usually enough to get books thrown at your head.)

[Curmudgeon]

It would be possible, but barely.
Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. ...

Special: You can take this feat only as a 1st level character. However, the basic rule of feat stacking is as follows:
If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once. So if you were a Human, or used flaws, you could take Precocious Apprentice twice. You wouldn't get any additional benefit from doing so, though.

[j_spencer93]

ah ok. kinda what i was thinking

[j_spencer93]

would precocious apprentice + alternate source spell allow early access to PRCs? I am actually curious, to me it seems to.

[sleepyphoenixx]

would precocious apprentice + alternate source spell allow early access to PRCs? I am actually curious, to me it seems to.

You need divine and arcane casting both to take Alternate Source spell. Since you need to get a level in a divine class anyway you're usually better off with Snowcasting (which heightens any [Cold] spell by 1, so it works for most arcane & divine classes both while costing you only 1 feat) or Sanctum Spell (which simply heightens ANY spell by 1).

But yes, assuming that you need 2nd level divine & arcane you could qualify with that combo.

[Mehangel]

would precocious apprentice + alternate source spell allow early access to PRCs? I am actually curious, to me it seems to.

I would say yes and no. While a character could infact use precocious apprentice to qualify for the arcane spellcasting requirement early, it does not mean that you will meet all the prerequisites (such as ranks in skills or BAB).

In the case with alternate source spell, a divine or arcane spellcaster will already need to be able to cast level 3 spells (i.e. 5th+ level) in order to apply the benefit of the metamagic feat to allow casting of level 2 spells.

Edit: Nevermind, i misread the Alternate Source Spell feat...

In addition, multiclassing into mystic theurge in this way might not be productive, depending on how the dm interprets the spells per day ability of the Mystic Theurge. The dm may for example declare that the divine spellcaster is Not an arcane spellcaster, but rather a divine spellcaster who can cast a select few arcane spells. If the dm declares as such, you will not be acquiring double spell progression...

[j_spencer93]

im DM. just wanted to know others opinions of that feat.

[Renen]

You cant double progression anyways. If you could, Sha'Ir would be very happy.

[j_spencer93]

can't double progression? sorry i am a little confused on what you mean.

[Renen]

In addition, multiclassing into mystic theurge in this way might not be productive, depending on how the dm interprets the spells per day ability of the Mystic Theurge. The dm may for example declare that the divine spellcaster is Not an arcane spellcaster, but rather a divine spellcaster who can cast a select few arcane spells. If the dm declares as such, you will not be acquiring double spell progression...

I was replying to the above quote.

[j_spencer93]

oh my bad. and if i went mystic T-word thingy in the build i was asking this about, it would be to progress wu jen/shugenja

[Andezzar]

You need divine and arcane casting both to take Alternate Source spell. Since you need to get a level in a divine class anyway you're usually better off with Snowcasting (which heightens any [Cold] spell by 1, so it works for most arcane & divine classes both while costing you only 1 feat) or Sanctum Spell (which simply heightens ANY spell by 1).Sanctum spell is actually a very poor method for early PrC access. Only in your sanctum can you cast higher level spells. You must level up and fulfill the prerequisites of a PrC immediately after acquiring enough XPs. This will very rarely happen in your sanctum and with spells prepared with the appropriate metamagic feat.

[Renen]

Well, if you do it that way, you better not level up when you have expended all your spells, because if you only count the ability to cast a certain level of a spell at level up, then yeh... But if you count the general potential to cast certain level spells, then its much better.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, if you do it that way, you better not level up when you have expended all your spells, because if you only count the ability to cast a certain level of a spell at level up, then yeh...
Some DMs will accommodate this potential deficiency by only awarding XP after the characters have had a good night's sleep and prepared their spells. Others will insist that you must advance in a class you currently qualify for, so you'd better maintain PrC entry requirements at all times when you're near a level-up point.

Know your DM: it's good advice.

[Magesmiley]

I'd say no on taking Precocious Apprentice twice due to the rule of not being able to take a feat twice unless specifically allowed.

My take on Precocious Apprentice is that it doesn't meet the requirements of prestige classes such as Mystic Theurge which require you to be able to case a certain level of spells (note the plural in the requirements) but that it would work for classes which call for being able to cast a specific spell (such as True Necromancer).

Alternative Source Spell is a bit murkier. I would actually have to say yes for meeting the ability to cast prerequisites (so a 3/1 split could work as the prerequisites for mystic theurge), but no to be able to double stack the Spells per Day benefit of classes that progress in both, as those benefits directly reference the class (and the slots you're preparing the spells in are ultimately arcane or divine, despite the feat). You'd have to take Alternative Source Spell as your 3rd level feat (doing a 2/1 progression) unless you were able to gain a bonus metamagic feat in some manner.

[j_spencer93]

you know i have wondered about that prerequisite wording before honestly.

[ace rooster]

Sanctum spell is actually a very poor method for early PrC access. Only in your sanctum can you cast higher level spells. You must level up and fulfill the prerequisites of a PrC immediately after acquiring enough XPs. This will very rarely happen in your sanctum and with spells prepared with the appropriate metamagic feat.

Bold is I think false (away from books and can't remember where it is from). I think you can delay leveling up. Generally this is done for the purposes of crafting items that would reduce your xp total to the point where you would lose a level, but there is no restriction to this case.

With regard to the question asked I would think not, but can't remember the exact wording of precocious apprentice. I had thought it was pretty explicitly wizard casting (or maybe prepared arcane? I am unaware of any dual prepared arcane classes anyway), but could be wrong. Even if it is not I am pretty sure it does not include the crucial "this feat can be taken more than once" clause.

If you try to use sanctum spell for prerequisites I think my response would be to set a giant clay golem in mechanical trousers and his dog on you, yelling "more cheese gromit!". I can't give you a RAW reason it doesn't work, because sanctum spell is written in a way that it might, but as a DM I would just say no. It violates the stated RAI of PrCs of being inaccessable before level 5 (exceptions apply).

[Renen]

It violates the stated RAI of PrCs of being inaccessable before level 5 (exceptions apply).

Say WHAAAAA?

[Curmudgeon]

Bold is I think false (away from books and can't remember where it is from). I think you can delay leveling up. Generally this is done for the purposes of crafting items that would reduce your xp total to the point where you would lose a level ...
Delay is never allowed, regardless of what you do with the XP. There are 3 alternatives to going up a level, but the requirement in every case is that you have to do so immediately.
A character cannot spend so much XP on an item that he or she loses a level. However, upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.

You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to achieve a new level, immediately spend the XP on casting the spell rather than keeping it to advance a level.
Each time a character's level adjustment is eligible to be reduced, the character may pay an XP cost to take advantage of the reduction. The character must pay an amount of XP equal to (his current ECL -1) × 1,000. This amount is immediately deducted from the character's XP total. There's just no way to actually delay using that XP when you're above the minimum required to advance to the next level.

[holywhippet]

I think the easier way of qualifying for PrCs without too much double classing is to take a cleric with the spell domain. Get to level 5 as a cleric with a single level of an arcane class. Since you have anyspell as a domain spell you can prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells. Works well for mystic theurge although it won't work for arcane hierophant since you won't have trackless step.

Technically you could qualify for the class without a level of an arcane casting class, but what would be the point?

[j_spencer93]

well i learned alot from this actually. lol. Pretty interesting to see how people interpret the same feat different ways.