Questions to ask for designing a bard

[lytokk]

I'm getting ready to run a game for a couple of first time players (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?391920-Designing-a-game-for-2-new-players-and-1-other), and one of them would like to play a bard. Just to cut down on the work involved from the newer players, I'm going to be building the mechanics of the characters for the new players based upon what they would like to do. The paladin of freedom is simple enough and the guy playing has given me more than enough ideas on what to do for his build.

Unfortunately, all I have gotten from the girl playing the bard was that she wanted to use a bow and a rapier. This simply means to me weapon finesse, but I know there's a lot more to bards than just that. My experience with building bards is very limited, as I've never played one myself. What I'm looking for is questions to ask her so I can flush out her spell and skill selection. We're going to be sticking mainly to core, but I don't mind hopping out of it to pick up a spell here or there. It's going to be a pretty heavy dungeoneering campaign, so anything related to that will be very helpful.

[atemu1234]

I know that brilliantgameologists has a few handbooks about it, but unfortunately I can't link them here, because where I am right now has blocked the site.

[Amphetryon]

I'm getting ready to run a game for a couple of first time players (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?391920-Designing-a-game-for-2-new-players-and-1-other), and one of them would like to play a bard. Just to cut down on the work involved from the newer players, I'm going to be building the mechanics of the characters for the new players based upon what they would like to do. The paladin of freedom is simple enough and the guy playing has given me more than enough ideas on what to do for his build.

Unfortunately, all I have gotten from the girl playing the bard was that she wanted to use a bow and a rapier. This simply means to me weapon finesse, but I know there's a lot more to bards than just that. My experience with building bards is very limited, as I've never played one myself. What I'm looking for is questions to ask her so I can flush out her spell and skill selection. We're going to be sticking mainly to core, but I don't mind hopping out of it to pick up a spell here or there. It's going to be a pretty heavy dungeoneering campaign, so anything related to that will be very helpful.
How closely to core do you need to stick? Extra Music is extraordinarily helpful at low levels, for example, and Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) can be a significant help if she's interested in any front-line combat.

Questions to consider:

Is she looking to play a singer, a dancer, an orator, or some other sort of Bard?
Does she have a preference for Race?
Does she envision her Bard as a keeper of lore, a leader, or more of a charming entertainer (INT score, and how Knowledge-focused/CHA-focused is she)?

For Skills, I almost always recommend maxing out UMD, but if you know you won't be including enough magic items to make that worthwhile over the Character's lifespan, it can be ignored. Similarly, importance of emphasis on CHA-based interaction Skills (Diplomacy/Intimidate, etc.) varies a lot by campaign-style.

For Spells, 0-level requirements are generally Detect/Read Magic (in absence of another Character who gets them), Daze, and Prestidigitation. Other choices are often dependent on campaign and concept. Grease and/or Sleep are solid choices for 1st level Spells; with a 2-person party, the other suggestions I'd consider would be Summon Monster 1 (possibly written on the sheet as 'Summon Celestial Monkey' or other specific creature, with a link/writeup of the monster) or - if dealing with summons seems daunting to a new Player - Cure Light Wounds (not a grand choice, but useful at low level in a small party unless you, as DM, are generous enough to give them healing items).

[lytokk]

I know she's looking to sing. As a woman who does childrens birthday parties cosplaying as disney princesses she wants to sing. I also believe she's looking at half-elf for the race. The third question you ask is a good one to ask her.

[Barstro]

I did not read your other thread closely, but I have concerns about first time players.

One is; what do you even mean by first time player? If they have some idea of the game, rules, mechanics, and teamwork, then things should be fine. If they are so completely new that the team might not mesh, then there can be issues no matter what.

On to the issue; While it's not too much of an issue at lower levels, I personally would ask her what role she wants to take in this. Using a rapier, a bow, and singing is rather unfocused. That isn't a problem if you are willing to alter the game to cater more to your players.

I've changed my mind, but I'm not going to delete what I wrote before;
This being their first time, I rather expect you to cater all encounters to your players. Just ask her what kind of character she wants to play. Point out the different roles she could have (ranged, melee, buff) and see what she wants more. Then provide encounters that work for those abilities. I'd even give everyone an additional feat or two so they can learn more about the classes.

[jaydubs]

I'd ask if she's just looking to use a bow and rapier, or if she's looking to be good with them.

Some players just want those things as part of the character image. Some want it to be the focus of the character.

Unfortunately, I have little experience building 3.5 bards.

[Xerlith]

If she wants to be semi-competent with both of these weapons without weapon-specific investment, I'd point out that Inspire Courage optimization gives her all she needs.
To-hit and damage, both melee AND ranged.
So give her Inspirational Boost at 2nd level and take that Music of Creation ACF to snatch Song of the Heart at 3rd.

Thanks to that, she can get by with 14s in strength and dex and pump CHA, so when she gets her Slippers of Battledancing (Which she needs), she's good to go.

[lytokk]

I did not read your other thread closely, but I have concerns about first time players.

One is; what do you even mean by first time player? If they have some idea of the game, rules, mechanics, and teamwork, then things should be fine. If they are so completely new that the team might not mesh, then there can be issues no matter what.

On to the issue; While it's not too much of an issue at lower levels, I personally would ask her what role she wants to take in this. Using a rapier, a bow, and singing is rather unfocused. That isn't a problem if you are willing to alter the game to cater more to your players.

I've changed my mind, but I'm not going to delete what I wrote before;
This being their first time, I rather expect you to cater all encounters to your players. Just ask her what kind of character she wants to play. Point out the different roles she could have (ranged, melee, buff) and see what she wants more. Then provide encounters that work for those abilities. I'd even give everyone an additional feat or two so they can learn more about the classes.

By first time players I mean they have never played any table top game before. They've played some video game RPGs, so they should be at minimum familiar with concepts of playing the game, but not knowledgeable at all regarding the actual function of the game.

Encounters will be tailored to the party. I'm not heading for any serious optimization here, just a simple dungeon crawl. Get into the dungeon, kill some badguys, solve a few puzzles, grab the Mcguffin, fight the final boss, get out.

In the games I run, I wouldn't call having a bow, a rapier, and singing for a bard to be unfocused. Its having your ranged and melee options, along with using a class feature, but I guess everyone's game is different or maybe I'm not seeing what you're saying precisely. I wasn't planning on focusing the character on any of these immediately. Heck, I don't even know if this is going to run for more than a single session.

I think the team should mesh decently. Right now we have a CG bard, CG paladin of freedom, and an undecided. The third would like to play something closer to TN, but that really shouldn't be an issue. She seemed interested in some sort of Sorceror for right now.


If she wants to be semi-competent with both of these weapons without weapon-specific investment, I'd point out that Inspire Courage optimization gives her all she needs.
To-hit and damage, both melee AND ranged.
So give her Inspirational Boost at 2nd level and take that Music of Creation ACF to snatch Song of the Heart at 3rd.

Thanks to that, she can get by with 14s in strength and dex and pump CHA, so when she gets her Slippers of Battledancing (Which she needs), she's good to go.

I found the slippers of battledancing, but I can't find the ACF online.


I suppose the questions I need to ask her regarding the build of the character she sees, is if she wants to focus more on buffing up the party, going into the fray herself, or debuffing enemies? I'm getting a lot of build help here, which is appreciated, but the problem is I don't know what roles bards can fill and I'm really looking for what I should be asking her about how she views her bard acting on and off the battlefield. Something more specific than that general question I mean, as she doesn't completely know what a bard can do.

[Barstro]

the problem is I don't know what roles bards can fill and I'm really looking for what I should be asking her about how she views her bard acting on and off the battlefield. Something more specific than that general question I mean, as she doesn't completely know what a bard can do.

Pretty sure a Bard can do anything. That's part of the problem I have in answering your question; it's very open ended. This is really a time where I would say to her "Your party is going toe to toe with two ogres. Do you; a) stay in back and sing a song to make your party stronger, b) stay in back and taunt the ogres so they are too distracted to hit your friends, c) stay in back and fire arrows at the ogres, d) run in with your rapier and fight alongside your allies?"

That will at least tell you what she wants to do most often.

[lytokk]

That has been part of the problem, bards can do anything, so it makes it difficult to ping down what she wants to do. But thank you for the idea of using an example. I don't know why I never think of that. Of course, there's option E to your example. Try and negotiate.

[Warrnan]

From my recent in depth studies of bards, here what if learned.

There are three main bard paths in combat and a few pitfalls.

1) buffing. Bard gets great things like displacement, inspire courage and haste. They can make their allies very powerful if they are more passively minded and don't like using weapons.

2) archery. Crank up inspire courage and pepper your enemies with arrows while buffing your allies too. A safe path that still enjoyed combat.

3) melee. Grab weapons finesse and a rapier. Sing inspire courage and help your allies flank and cut down the enemy.

All bards should optimize inspire courage. This is the reason bards exist. Giving +14 hit and damage to every attack makes every ally that uses physical weapons very lethal and shores up the bards mediocre physical attacks.

Ps bards are not illusionists or enchanters. Their save DCs will be low and this character focus is the poorest of the bards abilities. Build a wizard instead if she wants to do that and just give her a few ranks in perform. Lol.

[Warrnan]

Ps here's how you get 14 inspire courage. You may throttle this optimization down to your groups level of need.
LEVEL
1. 100gold masterwork horn (CAd) IC2
2. Inspirational boost spell (SCp) IC3
3. Song of the heart feat (ECS) IC4
Badge of valor item (MIC) IC5
6. Words of Creation feat (BoED) IC6
8. bard gives IC2 for a total of IC8
9. Vest of Legends item (dmg2) IC10
15. Bard gives IC3 for total of IC12
20. Bard gives ic4 for total of IC14

If she wants badly to melee or shoot in the first round of combat then she could grab crusader/warblade at level 3 and song of the white raven instead to inspire courage as a swift action then full attack. (I do this as I feel silly standing around buffing for a whole round.)

Max singing but drop 3 skill points into horn if she just wants to be the best buffer possible.

[Xerlith]

Song of the Heart and Music of Creation ACF are both in Eberron Campaign Setting.
Basically you can use MoC ACF to gain bonus feats instead of new Bardic Music applications.
And you can grab SotH as a bonus feat at 3rd bard level thanks to that.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Song of the Heart and Music of Creation ACF are both in Eberron Campaign Setting.
Basically you can use MoC ACF to gain bonus feats instead of new Bardic Music applications.
And you can grab SotH as a bonus feat at 3rd bard level thanks to that.

You can't. Song of the Heart requires Inspire Competence, so the feat won't work if you trade the ability away (if your DM would even let you take it when you trade the prerequisite away for it).

[Xerlith]

Well, up to now I had no problems doing so.

Also, it's been argued more than once here that as it is a bonus feat you might be able to ignore the prereqs.

[Raul Leão]

Improved critical with 2 vorpal rapiers can be aewsome ^^

[Xerlith]

Improved critical with 2 vorpal rapiers can be aewsome ^^

Except a Vorpal property procs only on a natural 20, not on a crit.

[Raul Leão]

Except a Vorpal property procs only on a natural 20, not on a crit.

not aewsome anymore, actually vorpal sounds like crap for me, if it was +1 or +2 in price, but for a +4? never

[lytokk]

It really is kind of a crap weapon enhancement. Useful if you get a nat 20 on the first attack roll on a non undead non construct non ooze non plant (did I forget any) boss, otherwise, somewhat pointless. Has more of a chance of 1-shotting a PC. Which is why its not allowed in my game. Also, slashing weapons only.

I appreciate all the help on this. Its given me a lot of information regarding building bards and given me good ideas for questions to ask.